KNICKS COULD FULFILL CONTENDER STATUS BY REALIZING HOMEGROWN TALENT, NOT SELLING OUT FOR PRESTIGIOUS FREE AGENT
July 23, 2018ByHarrison Liao
Photo: TKW Illustration
As reports swirl about a potential 2019 swing-for-the-fences free agency for the Knicks, fully realizing their homegrown talent would be the romantic idea of building a contender in New York.

It’s been a good summer for Knicks fans. I can’t express how rare that is. I imagine this is what it would feel like to emerge from the “long winter” Game of Thrones characters are always referencing; after a mind-numbing blizzard of James Dolan idiocy, heartbreaking injuries (get better, KP!), “meh” coaches, and Phil Jackson uber-idiocy, we can finally spot the sun’s orange tendrils reaching out over the snow-capped horizon to save us from our frigid demise. Rejoice! The long-overdue spring solstice has arrived in the shape of Kevin Knox. Winter is over.

What I want to ask you, fellow Knicks fan, is “Do we really want Kevin Durant? And/or Kyrie? Jimmy Butler?” The obvious answer is, “duh, yes with a capital ‘Y’ because Durant, Kyrie, and Butler would be ridiculous, and we would instantly become title contenders if not favorites.” But, if you’ll allow it, I’d like to explain to you why “no” is an acceptable answer, too.

I know, I know. This is the epitome of summer league overreactions. We get a taste of KnoxMania, a sprinkling of Frank Ntilikina progression, and whatever mystery flavor Mitchell Robinson is, and we collectively lose our minds.

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Mitchell Robinson (@23savage____) showed out at the Las Vegas Summer League.

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It’s easy to fill in the blanks though, right? In terms of evaluating prospects, Robinson is at least a bit of a center version of Jaylen Brown-ish (when Brown was 19 and not the monster he is now), a freak athlete who projects to be a great defender with a raw offensive game. Knox has been drawing Jayson Tatum comparisons for years, which only grew louder after his explosive summer league stint. Squint your eyes, dust off your crystal ball, and it’s not hard to see the Knicks falling into their own version of Boston’s prodigious Tatum/Brown tandem, arguably the two most irreplaceable cogs of the Celtics’ budding Eastern Conference powerhouse.

Then you have Ntilikina who, provided he improves his outside shooting, is the spitting image of peak George Hill, a perfectly competent starting guard on any roster. And, oh yeah, there’s Kristaps Porzingis, who could very well be the best two-way big not named Anthony Davis when he’s healthy. The future is unusually, tantalizingly bright in New York, so much so that it’s made a good portion of Knicks fans nervous. It’s like when someone who’s only been in traumatizing relationships starts dating a decent person for the first time. They’re just waiting for the other shoe to drop (Scott Perry and Steve Mills, please don’t drop the shoe).

Now’s not the time to ask, but I’m going to bring it up anyways: If this core that is so rife with potential hits its absolute ceiling, will that be enough to win a championship? Probably not, if we’re being honest. Porzingis plus whatever Knox, Robinson, and Ntilikina become feels like a three or a four seed at best, even in the laughably thin Eastern Conference. In theory, the Knicks need another big fish. It’s how the modern NBA works. It’s really hard to be better than all the other teams, which is why we see so many of these maligned “super teams” popping up every summer like their pop-culture counterparts, overblown superhero sequels. Only one team, the Dallas Mavericks with Dirk Nowitzki, has ever pulled it off with a solo superstar, and it took a colossal meltdown from the Miami Heat for that to happen.

So the Knicks need KD if they want to win. Probably one of Kyrie and Jimmy Butler, too, if not both. But winning, even in sports, isn’t everything. There’s something deeply satisfying, on a level super teams will never reach, about the rose that grows from concrete. I promise you if you ask Golden State fans—not bandwagoners, true diehards that probably all got flattops because of Chris Mullin—the sweetest championship of the past four years was the first one. Why? Not because KD is a snake or because they feel like, on some unspoken level, that they cheated the system. For the record, I don’t believe either of those things to be true. Durant made a decision that he felt was best for his career and his family, as all working people should do. The Warriors didn’t steal him, either; they pitched him a plan just like every other team with cap room did. I think the first ring was the best because they drafted Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green. They invested big cap space for Andre Iguodala when other teams overlooked him as a free agent. They took a gamble on Shaun Livingston and Andrew Bogut, both players with horrific injury pasts, and turned them into great rotation players. They freaking earned it. And before they won that ring? They freaking sucked.

It seems like forever ago, but the Warriors were one of the worst teams in the league before they drafted Curry. They were stuck in no mans land between the Baron Davis “We Believe” Warriors and the Monta Ellis “Monta-Ball” era. All of those moves—drafting Curry, signing Iguodala, and the rest—didn’t happen overnight. It was a process. And when they won with the fruits of that process, it must have felt better than any other way to win. The person that’s always dating crappy people eventually finds “The One.” I imagine that’s what Warriors fans felt like winning a championship pre-Durant.

That’s why it’s okay to not want him (or Kyrie or Jimmy Butler) to come to the Knicks next summer, as has been heavily rumored. The Knicks, as well as a bunch of teams across the league (the Sixers and the Celtics come to mind), are in the middle of a “Process,” to use a notorious Joel Embiid-ism. Of course I want this team to be the last one standing in June. Of course I want to see Porzingis hug David Fizdale as confetti rains down on them. Of course I want to hear Adam Silver give the Larry O’Brien trophy over to the team as he announces, “Ladies and gentlemen, your NBA Champions: the New York Knicks!” Trust me, I want all that very badly. But there’s a big part of me that doesn’t want to take the shortcut to get there. So yeah, a big part of me doesn’t want the Knicks to have Kevin Durant or Kyrie or Jimmy Butler. Even if the Knicks need them.

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agree 150%

why is it? when players whom either are homegrown or Want NY, Our NYK never want them?
this goes way back to the post Frazier, Reed days after early-mid 80's teams (e.g. Pat Ewing yr. 85, Mark Jackson yr. 87).

Ewing in 85' NYK ONLY! 1st rnd #1 pick, we'll never see the #1 again in life eh?
The following yr. 1986 NBA Draft, at #5 NYK had Ken 'Sky' Walker nba dunk champ one time
however at #14 pick was local St John's Walter Berry starred for Phoenix, All hindsight now.

You ever wonder when Ewing teams got GOOD 1988-1998, 99-2001.
what it been like if college star Walter Berry F/SF and Pat Ewing played together vs the east NBA teams
as Chitown Bulls?. Yea we'd lost to MJ when he was there, what about the yrs. Jordan left?

stars Ewing/Berry combo was possible... never happened!

TheGame wrote:The only thing I care about is salary cap space and our window. We have a four year window where we can add a max player or two and still be around or under the luxury tax level because Knox and Mitchell are on rookie deals. Knox will be starting SF this year and I think Mitchell will be the starting center by next year. I would love to turn Hardaway into Thompson. I think that is the upgrade on offense and defense that we need and I can see the Warriors viewing Hardaway as a decent cheaper replacement for Thompson. I also believe in growing our talent but at the same time we have a unique opportunity to take advantage of the rookie deals most of our talent will be on. Load up on the right max players, compete for the next four years and then give Knox and Mitchell pay raises in year 5.

I agree, Klay is te one guy I would go for. Butler is decent but I am not interested in trading the farm. If he can come for THJR and second rounder and oher players not called KP, Frank, Knox and now Mitchell, and no first rounders then do it, otherwise pass. I would probably give up a first rounder for Klay though, I just value him more than anyone being talked about. It's probably a minority view here, but that's how I see it.

TripleThreat wrote:

TheGame wrote:I would love to turn Hardaway into Thompson. I think that is the upgrade on offense and defense that we need and I can see the Warriors viewing Hardaway as a decent cheaper replacement for Thompson.

I can see this exact scenario happening.

First, Tim Hardaway Sr, still reeling from his slurs against "Those Who Cannot Be Named Without Being Sued", decides to bury his long standing feud with Latrell Sprewell ( Who still needs to feed his family) and they both develop a true "AI" that functions in a cost effective sex robot.

It's a robot. It's affordable. It's sexy. It will have sex with you.

It's not just some bad Johnny Depp movie about The Singularity, but it's real. Real life.

Hardaway Sr makes billions. Billions. Cash coming in. Like Pablo Escobar, Tim Sr and Latrell have to start burying cash everywhere, then forgetting where they buried it. They get Mitch Richmond and Chris Mullin to help.

Hardaway Sr BUYS the Warriors from Joe Lacob. For a record price of 4 billion for the franchise. And also inherits those massive luxury tax bills. But he's selling lots of sex robots. Then it's a full industry. Replacement parts, replacement heads, lube, clothing line, etc, etc.

So during halftime at a Warriors game, people are astounded, the dancers at halfcourt are not humans, they are dancing sex robots. Hardaway Sr announces the team will trade Klay Thompson for his son.

THJr arrives. Hugs his dad and says, "Dad, am I here to win?"

"No son, I won't live forever. But I want to, and I need to put my brain in your body"

Sex robots, who looked like they were dancing, attack THJr. He tries to stop them, but he has no ability to play defense at all.

There is a scream and Tim Hardaway Jr sheds a single tear. Meanwhile an army of sex robots attack a Xena Warrior Princess fan convention. Proving Tim Sr really wasn't sorry at all.

Klay Thompson realizes he barely escaped an evil robot regime. And he heads back to China. I need to build my own army he murmurs. But the factories can only build him 300 and not a 1000 ( Because of inflation and the poor valuation of the US Dollar, duh)

With his 300, Klay stands at a mountain pass. 300 against a million sex robots.

Does this story sound ****ing stupid to you? Then how do you think it sounds when you keep pushing the Warriors will trade Klay mother****ing Thompson for Tim Hardaway Jr?

OMG!!!

TripleThreat wrote:

TheGame wrote:I would love to turn Hardaway into Thompson. I think that is the upgrade on offense and defense that we need and I can see the Warriors viewing Hardaway as a decent cheaper replacement for Thompson.

I can see this exact scenario happening.

First, Tim Hardaway Sr, still reeling from his slurs against "Those Who Cannot Be Named Without Being Sued", decides to bury his long standing feud with Latrell Sprewell ( Who still needs to feed his family) and they both develop a true "AI" that functions in a cost effective sex robot.

It's a robot. It's affordable. It's sexy. It will have sex with you.

It's not just some bad Johnny Depp movie about The Singularity, but it's real. Real life.

Hardaway Sr makes billions. Billions. Cash coming in. Like Pablo Escobar, Tim Sr and Latrell have to start burying cash everywhere, then forgetting where they buried it. They get Mitch Richmond and Chris Mullin to help.

Hardaway Sr BUYS the Warriors from Joe Lacob. For a record price of 4 billion for the franchise. And also inherits those massive luxury tax bills. But he's selling lots of sex robots. Then it's a full industry. Replacement parts, replacement heads, lube, clothing line, etc, etc.

So during halftime at a Warriors game, people are astounded, the dancers at halfcourt are not humans, they are dancing sex robots. Hardaway Sr announces the team will trade Klay Thompson for his son.

THJr arrives. Hugs his dad and says, "Dad, am I here to win?"

"No son, I won't live forever. But I want to, and I need to put my brain in your body"

Sex robots, who looked like they were dancing, attack THJr. He tries to stop them, but he has no ability to play defense at all.

There is a scream and Tim Hardaway Jr sheds a single tear. Meanwhile an army of sex robots attack a Xena Warrior Princess fan convention. Proving Tim Sr really wasn't sorry at all.

Klay Thompson realizes he barely escaped an evil robot regime. And he heads back to China. I need to build my own army he murmurs. But the factories can only build him 300 and not a 1000 ( Because of inflation and the poor valuation of the US Dollar, duh)

With his 300, Klay stands at a mountain pass. 300 against a million sex robots.

Does this story sound ****ing stupid to you? Then how do you think it sounds when you keep pushing the Warriors will trade Klay mother****ing Thompson for Tim Hardaway Jr?

Question... when robots phuck is it a bang bang bang or a clang clang clang? Ive often wondered...

Dont believe KP wants the Knicks to be going that route, seems much more psyched about Knox, Robinson, and the rest of the young core, than some desperate attempt to keep him in NY.

Been against bringing in a max player, like Irving or Butler who probably wont play like one when our core is ready to contend. Knox and Robinson need a few years.

Like the idea of trading them for one of those players even less.

TripleThreat wrote:

fishmike wrote:The question is what makes more sense. Hardaway at $17mm? Or Klay Thompson at $35-40mm? When you are done humping robots come back to me and talk about whether or $200 million dollars (GS's luxury tax this year) matters to a wealthy owner. Can they do better than THjr? Maybe... depends on the $$ and other pieces involved.

If Klay Thompson went on the trade market, every other team in the NBA would be interested. Every single last one of them. Outside of a few select players, nearly everyone else and nearly every draft asset would be available in a trade.

He's a two way player, still young, with heavy playoff experience, with championship experience, from NBA legacy pedigree in his bloodline, who is a lock down defender. He has no linger health issues, no off the court problems worth any trouble and can create his own shot at will ( though often does not in his current role)

What would make sense would be if the Warriors wanted to trade him, to get draft assets, highly regarded young player(s) on rookie contracts and expirings that offer some immediate value.

I've outlined the ONLY scenario where THJr is traded for Klay Thompson. Tim Hardaway Sr would need to own the Warriors. That's it. That is literally the only scenario where it could be possible. The offer for Thompson would need to best out of all offers. Every team in the league will make some kind of offer. Every team.

Maybe 28 other NBA teams can make a better off for Klay Thompson than THJr?

Maybe?

Nothing you are saying makes sense. The Warriors, if they wanted to trade Thompson, could pay LESS REPEATER TAX over the long haul, get better players and better draft assets and still stay in a contention window by literally taking almost any other offer than one for THJr.

Mirror Test this. If the Knicks had Klay Thompson and traded him for THJr, people here would literally **** a brick. It would the dumbest decision in all of NBA history. It would be so dumb, no one would believe the news announcement of it. People would literally believe ESPN was taken over by terrorists and hackers.

If you think the Knicks can get Klay Thompson for THJr, then who here is really the one talking some wild ass science fiction?

TT, you are missing my point. If Klay Thompson says I am going to the Knicks as a FA, which is what he is going to be this summer, then the Warriors have a choice. They either let him walk for nothing or they take a package like Hardaway and a second rounder for Thompson. We have the leverage so we don't have to give up much. So the only thing is whether the Warriors value Hardaway. They are going to save a boatload ofccash because the Warriors are deep in the luxury tax so the difference in cost between Hardaway and thompson might be over $35 mil per year. That is my point. I was not saying that Hardaway is as good as Thompson. I am saying Hardaway is good enough that they might prefer taking him over losing Thompson for nothing. The other thing you have to realize is that the Warriors are over the cap, so it is not like if they lose Thompson they are going to be able to use cap space to sign another good shooting guard. They would be limited to guys willing to sit for the MLE. Now maybe they try to trade Thompson during the year. But I honestly think they are going to be more focused on winning another championship with Thompson.

TripleThreat wrote:

TheGame wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

fishmike wrote:The question is what makes more sense. Hardaway at $17mm? Or Klay Thompson at $35-40mm? When you are done humping robots come back to me and talk about whether or $200 million dollars (GS's luxury tax this year) matters to a wealthy owner. Can they do better than THjr? Maybe... depends on the $$ and other pieces involved.

If Klay Thompson went on the trade market, every other team in the NBA would be interested. Every single last one of them. Outside of a few select players, nearly everyone else and nearly every draft asset would be available in a trade.

He's a two way player, still young, with heavy playoff experience, with championship experience, from NBA legacy pedigree in his bloodline, who is a lock down defender. He has no linger health issues, no off the court problems worth any trouble and can create his own shot at will ( though often does not in his current role)

What would make sense would be if the Warriors wanted to trade him, to get draft assets, highly regarded young player(s) on rookie contracts and expirings that offer some immediate value.

I've outlined the ONLY scenario where THJr is traded for Klay Thompson. Tim Hardaway Sr would need to own the Warriors. That's it. That is literally the only scenario where it could be possible. The offer for Thompson would need to best out of all offers. Every team in the league will make some kind of offer. Every team.

Maybe 28 other NBA teams can make a better off for Klay Thompson than THJr?

Maybe?

Nothing you are saying makes sense. The Warriors, if they wanted to trade Thompson, could pay LESS REPEATER TAX over the long haul, get better players and better draft assets and still stay in a contention window by literally taking almost any other offer than one for THJr.

Mirror Test this. If the Knicks had Klay Thompson and traded him for THJr, people here would literally **** a brick. It would the dumbest decision in all of NBA history. It would be so dumb, no one would believe the news announcement of it. People would literally believe ESPN was taken over by terrorists and hackers.

If you think the Knicks can get Klay Thompson for THJr, then who here is really the one talking some wild ass science fiction?

TT, you are missing my point. If Klay Thompson says I am going to the Knicks as a FA, which is what he is going to be this summer, then the Warriors have a choice. They either let him walk for nothing or they take a package like Hardaway and a second rounder for Thompson. We have the leverage so we don't have to give up much. So the only thing is whether the Warriors value Hardaway. They are going to save a boatload ofccash because the Warriors are deep in the luxury tax so the difference in cost between Hardaway and thompson might be over $35 mil per year. That is my point. I was not saying that Hardaway is as good as Thompson. I am saying Hardaway is good enough that they might prefer taking him over losing Thompson for nothing. The other thing you have to realize is that the Warriors are over the cap, so it is not like if they lose Thompson they are going to be able to use cap space to sign another good shooting guard. They would be limited to guys willing to sit for the MLE. Now maybe they try to trade Thompson during the year. But I honestly think they are going to be more focused on winning another championship with Thompson.

No, I get your point, it just doesn't add up.

If the GSW had to choose between losing Klay Thompson as a street free agent with ZERO RETURN or getting two years of Tim Hardaway Jr at his AAV (Which would be multiplied by the repeater tax formula) , they would simply let Thompson walk.

The "rental" trade value of even Thompson for a half season to a team with no chance to sign him to an extension would still be more valuable than 2 years of THJr with the repeater tax hit. If the GSW could only get a 1st rounder and an expiring, that would still be more useful than THJrs two years at his AAV and his production level.

There's a good chance a team might pay a little more than rental price because they'd have his Bird Rights and hope that would leverage Klay to sign an extension.

You are also working on the assumption/theory that THJr would be the only trade scenario possible. I'm not looking at the math right now, but the Warriors could easily say, give us Knox, Hezonja and Baker/filler and some picks instead.

The Warriors have signed DMC, David West, Pachulia, Nick Young, Casspi all at discounts against what they could have gotten at market. I think if any team could use the MLE and room exception to get more help, or even the veteran's minimum from a buyout player, it would be the Warriors.

THJr is a NET NEGATIVE CONTRACT. The GSW would rather lose Thompson for NOTHING than take in THJr's ugly contract.

If Thompson blew out his knee this year, the GSW could and would still steamroll everyone into the Finals. They are that deep. They can't afford to lose Draymond Green. That's it.

No rational team is going into a repeater tax threshold for two years of THJr when they don't have to, and Klay Thompson would be such an elite trade commodity, even as a rental, that the Knicks would have no leverage.

No you are still missing my point because you are operating under the assumption that Golden State controls where Thompson goes. That is true during the season but after the season, Thompson controls where he goes and if he decides he wants to sign with the Knicks then Golden Stateneither loses him for nothing or takes a trade with the Knicks as their only option to get compensation for Klay. I am not as convinced that Golden State would have no interest in Hardaway. A lot will depend on how Hardaway looks this year. If he improves his efficiency and scores around 19-20 per game then he would be earning right around what other shooting guards with his skill set are getting. Now if he looks to be inefficient again this season, then I would agree that the Warriors would probably pass.

fishmike wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

TheGame wrote:I would love to turn Hardaway into Thompson. I think that is the upgrade on offense and defense that we need and I can see the Warriors viewing Hardaway as a decent cheaper replacement for Thompson.

I can see this exact scenario happening.

First, Tim Hardaway Sr, still reeling from his slurs against "Those Who Cannot Be Named Without Being Sued", decides to bury his long standing feud with Latrell Sprewell ( Who still needs to feed his family) and they both develop a true "AI" that functions in a cost effective sex robot.

It's a robot. It's affordable. It's sexy. It will have sex with you.

It's not just some bad Johnny Depp movie about The Singularity, but it's real. Real life.

Hardaway Sr makes billions. Billions. Cash coming in. Like Pablo Escobar, Tim Sr and Latrell have to start burying cash everywhere, then forgetting where they buried it. They get Mitch Richmond and Chris Mullin to help.

Hardaway Sr BUYS the Warriors from Joe Lacob. For a record price of 4 billion for the franchise. And also inherits those massive luxury tax bills. But he's selling lots of sex robots. Then it's a full industry. Replacement parts, replacement heads, lube, clothing line, etc, etc.

So during halftime at a Warriors game, people are astounded, the dancers at halfcourt are not humans, they are dancing sex robots. Hardaway Sr announces the team will trade Klay Thompson for his son.

THJr arrives. Hugs his dad and says, "Dad, am I here to win?"

"No son, I won't live forever. But I want to, and I need to put my brain in your body"

Sex robots, who looked like they were dancing, attack THJr. He tries to stop them, but he has no ability to play defense at all.

There is a scream and Tim Hardaway Jr sheds a single tear. Meanwhile an army of sex robots attack a Xena Warrior Princess fan convention. Proving Tim Sr really wasn't sorry at all.

Klay Thompson realizes he barely escaped an evil robot regime. And he heads back to China. I need to build my own army he murmurs. But the factories can only build him 300 and not a 1000 ( Because of inflation and the poor valuation of the US Dollar, duh)

With his 300, Klay stands at a mountain pass. 300 against a million sex robots.

Does this story sound ****ing stupid to you? Then how do you think it sounds when you keep pushing the Warriors will trade Klay mother****ing Thompson for Tim Hardaway Jr?

You need a hobby. The question is what makes more sense. Hardaway at $17mm? Or Klay Thompson at $35-40mm? When you are done humping robots come back to me and talk about whether or $200 million dollars (GS's luxury tax this year) matters to a wealthy owner. Can they do better than THjr? Maybe... depends on the $$ and other pieces involved.

Question... when robots phuck is it a bang bang bang or a clang clang clang? Ive often wondered...

arkrud wrote:Getting back to the original topic there is no single answer to the question what is better to win by building from within of by assembling supper team.
Some people like the process, some like the results, some like both.
To me supper team business is a lottery scam when one can buy million lottery tickets and sometimes claim the win.
Building from within is lining up everything for lucky day which should eventually come... most of the time.
And building the team from withing is not prohibiting on upgrading to supper team. And Warriors are exactly the organization which took this path.
That's why they build the Dynasty.
So if some group of smart people look at this why would they not take on the same blueprint?
Looks like Knicks new leadership team does just that. And not only Knicks team.
This is the profound influence Warriors made on our days NBA.

The best way to build a team to maximize bird rights and the cap is to get a bunch of lottery picks in a 4 year span and before you pay them what their worth you sign Max FA's. You than have a base of talent so the team isn't top heavy. You than an go over the cap to keep your home grown draft picks