joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

technomaster wrote:Well, if he has a short shelf life, can he be good enough early enough to be a difference maker. I think of Brandon Roy. Buddy had no cartilage in his knees. He was fantastic al-star talent for several years, then just couldn’t do it anymore.

The more useless version is Jonathan Bender, whose entire career was taken from him, short of maybe a dozen impressive games on the Knicks. He should have been Anthony Davis but just was never healthy enough.

From what I read, there was a study of 61 nba players who had his type of procedure done. They all returned as good or better the 2nd year after the surgery.

Great post! Thanks for this info....

How old were they at the time of their procedure? Were they still growing at the time? How long were they in the league at the time of their injury? What position did they play? It should make me feel better about his health, but it doesnt.

There was a story that Porter jr. couldnt get out of bed after working out for a team because of severe hip pain. If its true, did the players in that study go through similar issues?

All the cloak and dagger about Porter jr's medical records is enough to want see the Knicks pass. If the team that has his medical records passes on him, when they are short at his position, long term. It feels like an unecessary risk with less info.

Not directly meant at you, but this is so funny. Just last year people were screaming that they didnt take Dennis Smith even though he had ACL surgeries AND he wouldnt give them his medical records. Now the kid is screaming he is ok and now people are saying pass. Until he plays well. Then we hear the crying.

The difference was that Smith jr. showed to be no worse for wear, and we're talking about a back injury.

Porter jr. also had a recent hip injury that kept him in bed for a day. I didnt disagree with folks who thought his medical records was a legit reason to pass.on him.

Not the caricature of a me first, selfish coach killer, he was made out to be by some here. No complaints about Smith jr's attitude from one of the toughest coaches in the league.

Taking that perspective I would be even MORE wary of Smith. Because he is essentially saying "No you cant look at my records to determine a poosible long term issue, but pay me my money for the next 5 years". Im not saying he did that, but i still want to look at possible LONG term issues that may arise, as opposed to banking on short term sample sizes. That is very naive. Meanwhile, at least Porter is up front about everything.

Naive? Get bent. Porter couldnt get out of bed after workouts, and Smith jr. was doing windmill dunks before the draft. One player was ready to play, the other one still isnt 100 percent. Being upfront about your medical issues doesnt change them.

Get bent? Cool dude, 2005 wants their insult back. Why the hell are you so defensive? I didnt call you naive, i said for a team to not look at long term affects of any serious injury while banking on short term performance. It is naive to draft someone whose injury may cut their career shorter because of wear and tear on a repaired joint, just because the can windmill dunk (Your words, not mine) afterwards.

Actually that expression is a lot older. Telling someone their perspective is "very naive" is not a compliment in anyone's book. You might not hear it in a game of "Dozens" but its still an insult. Poor choice of words on your part.

I had just finished agreeing with you that Smith jr not showing his medical report was a legit reason to pass on him, but I guess that wasnt enough.

You brought up the comparison to Smith jr. You were also suggesting that it was the exact same situation with Porter jr.. Its not. One of them was 100 perecent and showing it. We still dont know if Porter jr will completely recover.

Smith jr regained all of his explosiveness. Much more risk with a player who has yet to prove he has completely healed, or will ever be the same player again. Smith fell to us because of the injury. I was for drafting Smith becuase he was a top pick before the injury and looked no worse for wear. No way is that the same situation as someone who cant out of his fing bed.

WaltLongmire wrote:Heard Porter interviewed on the radio prior to the draft...When talking about his hip problem, he mentioned that he had gone through an MRI and the results were "better than past ones" (or something to that effect). I took this to mean that he had experienced problems with his hips before... I didn't think he was talking about his back.

Pre-draft article hints at the hip issue being a continuing problem, which may back up what I heard.

So here is a personal take.

I've had back and hip issues for about a year and a half now and KNOW that they are both interconnected, each injury and person is different obviously but body mechanics work similarly. Don't have anything near what Porter is going thru (and I'm as old as **** compared to him) but it's maybe in the same range of where his recovery is putting him in. Tiger Woods probably had a worse version of what Porter is going through.

If Porter has the injury plus an imbalance some place in back and hip, it's a long hard road to getting normal, IF you can get there.

Maybe his hip problem is completely unrelated, but this is the second time over the past year I've read that Porter has had hip issues and I'd guess they are related to back.

I'm no doctor but have seen waaaaayyyyy too many over the past year

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Heard Porter interviewed on the radio prior to the draft...When talking about his hip problem, he mentioned that he had gone through an MRI and the results were "better than past ones" (or something to that effect). I took this to mean that he had experienced problems with his hips before... I didn't think he was talking about his back.

Pre-draft article hints at the hip issue being a continuing problem, which may back up what I heard.

So here is a personal take.

I've had back and hip issues for about a year and a half now and KNOW that they are both interconnected, each injury and person is different obviously but body mechanics work similarly. Don't have anything near what Porter is going thru (and I'm as old as **** compared to him) but it's maybe in the same range of where his recovery is putting him in. Tiger Woods probably had a worse version of what Porter is going through.

If Porter has the injury plus an imbalance some place in back and hip, it's a long hard road to getting normal, IF you can get there.

Maybe his hip problem is completely unrelated, but this is the second time over the past year I've read that Porter has had hip issues and I'd guess they are related to back.

I'm no doctor but have seen waaaaayyyyy too many over the past year

The hip issue was the final straw, I expect...Teams were worried about his back, his physicals were not readily available at first, he doesn't seem to have done a workout for anyone (Did he?), and then he goes and hurts his hip.

The was a lack of transparency by Porter and his people, made it seem like they were hiding something...and they probably were.

martin wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Heard Porter interviewed on the radio prior to the draft...When talking about his hip problem, he mentioned that he had gone through an MRI and the results were "better than past ones" (or something to that effect). I took this to mean that he had experienced problems with his hips before... I didn't think he was talking about his back.

Pre-draft article hints at the hip issue being a continuing problem, which may back up what I heard.

So here is a personal take.

I've had back and hip issues for about a year and a half now and KNOW that they are both interconnected, each injury and person is different obviously but body mechanics work similarly. Don't have anything near what Porter is going thru (and I'm as old as **** compared to him) but it's maybe in the same range of where his recovery is putting him in. Tiger Woods probably had a worse version of what Porter is going through.

If Porter has the injury plus an imbalance some place in back and hip, it's a long hard road to getting normal, IF you can get there.

Maybe his hip problem is completely unrelated, but this is the second time over the past year I've read that Porter has had hip issues and I'd guess they are related to back.

I'm no doctor but have seen waaaaayyyyy too many over the past year

Gallo had a bad back and it didn't seem to impact his career. Larry Johnson developed a bad back and was never the same. Who knows how this will go with Porter, but it wasn't worth the gamble for anyone picking ahead of Denver.

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

technomaster wrote:Well, if he has a short shelf life, can he be good enough early enough to be a difference maker. I think of Brandon Roy. Buddy had no cartilage in his knees. He was fantastic al-star talent for several years, then just couldn’t do it anymore.

The more useless version is Jonathan Bender, whose entire career was taken from him, short of maybe a dozen impressive games on the Knicks. He should have been Anthony Davis but just was never healthy enough.

From what I read, there was a study of 61 nba players who had his type of procedure done. They all returned as good or better the 2nd year after the surgery.

Great post! Thanks for this info....

How old were they at the time of their procedure? Were they still growing at the time? How long were they in the league at the time of their injury? What position did they play? It should make me feel better about his health, but it doesnt.

There was a story that Porter jr. couldnt get out of bed after working out for a team because of severe hip pain. If its true, did the players in that study go through similar issues?

All the cloak and dagger about Porter jr's medical records is enough to want see the Knicks pass. If the team that has his medical records passes on him, when they are short at his position, long term. It feels like an unecessary risk with less info.

Not directly meant at you, but this is so funny. Just last year people were screaming that they didnt take Dennis Smith even though he had ACL surgeries AND he wouldnt give them his medical records. Now the kid is screaming he is ok and now people are saying pass. Until he plays well. Then we hear the crying.

The difference was that Smith jr. showed to be no worse for wear, and we're talking about a back injury.

Porter jr. also had a recent hip injury that kept him in bed for a day. I didnt disagree with folks who thought his medical records was a legit reason to pass.on him.

Not the caricature of a me first, selfish coach killer, he was made out to be by some here. No complaints about Smith jr's attitude from one of the toughest coaches in the league.

Taking that perspective I would be even MORE wary of Smith. Because he is essentially saying "No you cant look at my records to determine a poosible long term issue, but pay me my money for the next 5 years". Im not saying he did that, but i still want to look at possible LONG term issues that may arise, as opposed to banking on short term sample sizes. That is very naive. Meanwhile, at least Porter is up front about everything.

Naive? Get bent. Porter couldnt get out of bed after workouts, and Smith jr. was doing windmill dunks before the draft. One player was ready to play, the other one still isnt 100 percent. Being upfront about your medical issues doesnt change them.

Get bent? Cool dude, 2005 wants their insult back. Why the hell are you so defensive? I didnt call you naive, i said for a team to not look at long term affects of any serious injury while banking on short term performance. It is naive to draft someone whose injury may cut their career shorter because of wear and tear on a repaired joint, just because the can windmill dunk (Your words, not mine) afterwards.

Actually that expression is a lot older. Telling someone their perspective is "very naive" is not a compliment in anyone's book. You might not hear it in a game of "Dozens" but its still an insult. Poor choice of words on your part.

I had just finished agreeing with you that Smith jr not showing his medical report was a legit reason to pass on him, but I guess that wasnt enough.

You brought up the comparison to Smith jr. You were also suggesting that it was the exact same situation with Porter jr.. Its not. One of them was 100 perecent and showing it. We still dont know if Porter jr will completely recover.

Smith jr regained all of his explosiveness. Much more risk with a player who has yet to prove he has completely healed, or will ever be the same player again. Smith fell to us because of the injury. I was for drafting Smith becuase he was a top pick before the injury and looked no worse for wear. No way is that the same situation as someone who cant out of his fing bed.

Take 2. I never called you naive. Reading comprehension is fundamental. I called teams ignoring long term effects of serious injury naive. As a Knick fan living through McDyess, Amare, and Allan Houston, I kinda figured you would understand that. Im also not saying Porter was a better investment than Smith. Just drawing a parallel they handled it in different ways and it was also relevant due to what Bilas said about players releasing medical records to every team.

You mean "very naive" like when I suggested we take a chance on Smith? That kind of naive? Own it.

Take 3, I told you twice that Smith not sharing his medical records was a legit reason to pass on him. What more do you want?

I thought it was worth the risk considering hiw depleted we were, and Smith was 100 percent and 19, not an NBA veteran with mutliple knee injuries.

You, in your infinite wisdom, originally put forward the proposition that a player who cant get out of bed after workouts, walking with a limp because of multiple injuries, including a back injury, is comparable to a player who has fully recovered from their injury and showing it.

Long term is another contract. Knicks havent signed a draft pick to a new deal since Charlie Ward. Lets cross that bridge when we get to it.

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

technomaster wrote:Well, if he has a short shelf life, can he be good enough early enough to be a difference maker. I think of Brandon Roy. Buddy had no cartilage in his knees. He was fantastic al-star talent for several years, then just couldn’t do it anymore.

The more useless version is Jonathan Bender, whose entire career was taken from him, short of maybe a dozen impressive games on the Knicks. He should have been Anthony Davis but just was never healthy enough.

From what I read, there was a study of 61 nba players who had his type of procedure done. They all returned as good or better the 2nd year after the surgery.

Great post! Thanks for this info....

How old were they at the time of their procedure? Were they still growing at the time? How long were they in the league at the time of their injury? What position did they play? It should make me feel better about his health, but it doesnt.

There was a story that Porter jr. couldnt get out of bed after working out for a team because of severe hip pain. If its true, did the players in that study go through similar issues?

All the cloak and dagger about Porter jr's medical records is enough to want see the Knicks pass. If the team that has his medical records passes on him, when they are short at his position, long term. It feels like an unecessary risk with less info.

Not directly meant at you, but this is so funny. Just last year people were screaming that they didnt take Dennis Smith even though he had ACL surgeries AND he wouldnt give them his medical records. Now the kid is screaming he is ok and now people are saying pass. Until he plays well. Then we hear the crying.

The difference was that Smith jr. showed to be no worse for wear, and we're talking about a back injury.

Porter jr. also had a recent hip injury that kept him in bed for a day. I didnt disagree with folks who thought his medical records was a legit reason to pass.on him.

Not the caricature of a me first, selfish coach killer, he was made out to be by some here. No complaints about Smith jr's attitude from one of the toughest coaches in the league.

Taking that perspective I would be even MORE wary of Smith. Because he is essentially saying "No you cant look at my records to determine a poosible long term issue, but pay me my money for the next 5 years". Im not saying he did that, but i still want to look at possible LONG term issues that may arise, as opposed to banking on short term sample sizes. That is very naive. Meanwhile, at least Porter is up front about everything.

Naive? Get bent. Porter couldnt get out of bed after workouts, and Smith jr. was doing windmill dunks before the draft. One player was ready to play, the other one still isnt 100 percent. Being upfront about your medical issues doesnt change them.

Get bent? Cool dude, 2005 wants their insult back. Why the hell are you so defensive? I didnt call you naive, i said for a team to not look at long term affects of any serious injury while banking on short term performance. It is naive to draft someone whose injury may cut their career shorter because of wear and tear on a repaired joint, just because the can windmill dunk (Your words, not mine) afterwards.

Actually that expression is a lot older. Telling someone their perspective is "very naive" is not a compliment in anyone's book. You might not hear it in a game of "Dozens" but its still an insult. Poor choice of words on your part.

I had just finished agreeing with you that Smith jr not showing his medical report was a legit reason to pass on him, but I guess that wasnt enough.

You brought up the comparison to Smith jr. You were also suggesting that it was the exact same situation with Porter jr.. Its not. One of them was 100 perecent and showing it. We still dont know if Porter jr will completely recover.

Smith jr regained all of his explosiveness. Much more risk with a player who has yet to prove he has completely healed, or will ever be the same player again. Smith fell to us because of the injury. I was for drafting Smith becuase he was a top pick before the injury and looked no worse for wear. No way is that the same situation as someone who cant out of his fing bed.

Take 2. I never called you naive. Reading comprehension is fundamental. I called teams ignoring long term effects of serious injury naive. As a Knick fan living through McDyess, Amare, and Allan Houston, I kinda figured you would understand that. Im also not saying Porter was a better investment than Smith. Just drawing a parallel they handled it in different ways and it was also relevant due to what Bilas said about players releasing medical records to every team.

You mean "very naive" like when I suggested we take a chance on Smith? That kind of naive? Own it.

Take 3, I told you twice that Smith not sharing his medical records was a legit reason to pass on him. What more do you want?

I thought it was worth the risk considering hiw depleted we were, and Smith was 100 percent and 19, not an NBA veteran with mutliple knee injuries.

You, in your infinite wisdom, originally put forward the proposition that a player who cant get out of bed after workouts, walking with a limp because of multiple injuries, including a back injury, is comparable to a player who has fully recovered from their injury and showing it.

Long term is another contract. Knicks havent signed a draft pick to a new deal since Charlie Ward. Lets cross that bridge when we get to it.

Do you need to play the martyr? Ok man. Whatever. All I was trying to say just because dude is playing NOW does not make him a good investment. Smith sat SEVERAL games because of knee issues. There IS a parallel. You can say Porter could be another Simmons or Embiid...who redshirted their rookie year and are currently great players (although my personal feeling is Embiid flames out early due to his injuries). You need to have an eye on the long term with draft picks.

Honestly, if you havent gotten what i said the past several posts, feel the need to keep saying "own it" when I have nothing to "own", and you arenjust not going to believe what I am saying when I try to explain it to you, I see no need to further this conversation with you.

You are right about it all. I am wrong. You win. I lose. You are a lot smarter than me. I digress. No need to converse on this topic any more.

May you have a wonderful day.

"I stand here, martyred for my naiveté..."