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Some Random Thoughts
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NardDogNation
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6/10/2018  11:49 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/10/2018  12:07 PM
1.) I hope the Knicks bring in Jason Kidd to be a consultant for our PG's during the offseason and training camp. I think Frank Ntilikina, in particular, could benefit from his tutelage. The role Jason Kidd played for us during the 2012-2013 season is exactly what I'd like to see from Ntilikina moving forward (phenomenal outlet passer, ball mover, defender and shooter).

I doubt Mudiay ever lives up to the hype that made him the seventh pick in the 2015 draft but having arguably the greatest PG of all-time breaking down game film and technique for him could not hurt. If Mudiay could be a poor man's version of Kidd on the break during his prime and Ntilikina as the best version of Kidd after he aged, I think we'd have a pretty compelling backcourt moving forward.


2.) I'm shifting more toward taking the safest pick at 9 (Mikal Bridges), rather than the one with the highest ceiling (Porter, Carter, Sexton, etc). Small market teams have to continually swing for the fences in the draft because it is the only realistic way they have a shot at getting a star-caliber player. That is clearly not us. Our strategy moving forward should be to get as many singles (as opposed to homeruns) in the draft that we can while creating cap space to inevitably sign free agents. It would be optimal if we managed to get cost-control on several inexpensive albeit capable role players via the draft (e.g. Kyle Kuzma, Josh Hart, OG Anounby, Frank Mason Jr., Jordan Bell types) to build our roster. It won't make us into a juggernaut outright but would lay the groundwork to something special because...

"If we build it, they will come". If we have a solid floor AND cap space, we can create a narrative that is compelling enough to sign any all-star with Porzingis already in-tow. Do you think if we had implored this type of strategy sooner and had two max contract spots that we wouldn't be favored to sign both LeBron James and Paul George? We may have missed the window for those two but more disgruntled stars will be available in the future. Moving forward we need to look at any and all options that give us more picks to select "safe picks" in the draft whether that be trading down, acquiring short-term bad contracts with picks attached, etc. I don't care how badly we mangle the cap in the immediate, so long as ALL non-rookie contracts more than $6 million/yr expire BEFORE the 2020-2021 season; aside from Porzingis, obviously.


3.) I'm intrigued by the possibility of signing Mario Hezonja. He has been labeled a bust by many but I think his subpar play has been the result of poor development and a lack of opportunity. He had some impressive games after Aaron Gordon got hurt and the Magic shifted him to the 4 spot, which just so happens to be a position of need for us. I'd look into locking him into a 2+1 deal for a total of $13 million (only $8.5 million guaranteed) to see if he can make good on some of the hype that made him the 5th pick in the 2015 draft.


4.) I prefer to keep Ron Baker as opposed to Trey Burke. I know that this might not be a popular opinion by most but as bad as Baker had been last season; I don't see a generous 5"10 PG offering much utility moving forward. Unless players of that physical profile are nuclear athletes (see Nate Robinson), they generally don't hang around very long in the league. So why waste a roster spot and minutes trying to develop Burke?


5.) Even if Porzingis is ready to return this season, he shouldn't. He's clearly a very skilled player (evidenced by having won the Skills Challenge a few years) but I am becoming concerned about his shot selection and inability to find teammates with the pass. So while his body heals, I hope he uses the opportunity to figure out how best to integrate all his skills like the Sixers had Embiid do.


6.) If I were running the franchise, I'd want to roll into the season with this as my roster...

STARTERS
G: Emmanual Mudiay
G: Frank Ntilikina
F: Mikal Bridges
F: Patrick Patterson
C: Enes Kanter

ROTATION
G: Jerryd Bayless
G/F: Terrance Ferguson
G/F: Chandler Hutchinson or Melvin Frazier
F: Mario Hezonja
C: Joakim Noah

BENCH
PG: Jose Calderon
G/F: Alex Abrines
F: Kyle Singler
F: Lance Thomas
F/C: Kristaps Porzingis (injured)

(JR Smith acquired and waived)

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7060495

AUTOADVERT
NardDogNation
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6/10/2018  12:48 PM
Because of Briggs, I think I'm on team Kevin Huerter as well. I wouldn't take him with the 9th pick but would look into facilitating a trade with the Clippers to acquires picks 12 and 13. With one of those picks, I'd definitely take Huerter.

I was thinking of different strategies to further incentivize the Clippers to make the deal and thought that taking back Danilo Gallinari's awful contract could work. It expires the same year as Noah and Lee's, so I don't think it would hurt us too badly.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycmmg65x

The Clippers would get the 8th pick, the Cavs would get the 9th pick, the Thunder would get the 36th pick and we'd get picks 12 and 13.

The Clippers do it because they can move up in the draft and get one of the more ballyhooed picks, while replacing a dead contract (Danilo Gallinari) with a serviceable player in Patrick Patterson. The Cavs do the deal because they are also replacing a dead contract (JR Smith) with a serviceable player (Tim Hardaway Jr). The Thunder also do it to save money and replace dead money (Abrines and Singler) with a rotation player, Courtney Lee.

I'd also try to engage the Sixers and see if we could flip either 12 or 13 for 10th. They want to create as much cap room as possible, so moving down in the draft would make perfect sense. Swapping Jerryd Bayless, who makes twice as much as Ron Baker, would also encourage them to make a deal. I think Ron Baker, $4.5 million worth of cap space and pick 13 for Jerryd Bayless and pick 10, makes perfect sense for both teams.

At 10, I select Mikal Bridges and at 13, I take Kevin Huerter.

NardDogNation
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6/10/2018  1:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/10/2018  1:01 PM
NardDogNation wrote:Because of Briggs, I think I'm on team Kevin Huerter as well. I wouldn't take him with the 9th pick but would look into facilitating a trade with the Clippers to acquires picks 12 and 13. With one of those picks, I'd definitely take Huerter.

I was thinking of different strategies to further incentivize the Clippers to make the deal and thought that taking back Danilo Gallinari's awful contract could work. It expires the same year as Noah and Lee's, so I don't think it would hurt us too badly.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycmmg65x

The Clippers would get the 8th pick, the Cavs would get the 9th pick, the Thunder would get the 36th pick and we'd get picks 12 and 13.

The Clippers do it because they can move up in the draft and get one of the more ballyhooed picks, while replacing a dead contract (Danilo Gallinari) with a serviceable player in Patrick Patterson. The Cavs do the deal because they are also replacing a dead contract (JR Smith) with a serviceable player (Tim Hardaway Jr). The Thunder also do it to save money and replace dead money (Abrines and Singler) with a rotation player, Courtney Lee.

I'd also try to engage the Sixers and see if we could flip either 12 or 13 for 10th. They want to create as much cap room as possible, so moving down in the draft would make perfect sense. Swapping Jerryd Bayless, who makes twice as much as Ron Baker, would also encourage them to make a deal. I think Ron Baker, $4.5 million worth of cap space and pick 13 for Jerryd Bayless and pick 10, makes perfect sense for both teams.

At 10, I select Mikal Bridges and at 13, I take Kevin Huerter.

The deal could also be re-structured to maximize the amount of money the Clippers save. If we took JR Smith's contract instead and sent them Lance Thomas, it would save them about $8 million per season and $24 million over the course of the deal. For a lottery team that is close to paying the luxury tax, I don't this is anything to scoff at when considering how few teams can absorb salary without sending money back.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ya2w5jjs

Nalod
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USA
6/10/2018  1:23 PM
1. Kidd the great player is not our coach. You don't let a severe Alpha near your players unless they are on the sTaff. We just retooled our whole coaching staff. Lets let them do their thing. If Frank was to be kept we likely hired some coach's to emphasize his growth. Kidd the player is not kidd the coach and you just can't teach certain things. Frank was seen by Phill as something special. Maybe it was Gaines. Just because Phil the bat shyt nutty exec was not great at that role, Phil the HOF great coach does know a few things about great players. Thats not a guarantee on Frank, but lets give the process a chance.

2. Find any draft position on Huerter than Briggs daily player flavor of the moment video eye candy? Not saying don't try to get him, but can he be had with a late 1st rounder? Second round pick? Take him 9th? Its a fixable offense. Tapscott like. If Im wrong, good for knicks and Briggs ego.

3. Does talk among us actually mean Clippers picks are there for our pleasure? Who said this is valid offering available? This more "we the mecca" thing or an actually rumor?

4. Some of us can talk like real experts but if you making it up its bullshyt. Throw out 30 ideas and keep repeating it does not make it valid.
Have an opinion, thats cool. Talk like its out there cuz thats how you would see it does not make it valid. Im not directing it at anyone. Maybe Briggs. He has many failures. We can appreciate him sticking his neck out but really what is his consequence? Throw out a bunch of players? If he read the team we'd have white side, charles White, Clarkson, and Thabeet still. She good ones and bad ones are all out there.

I don't see Trey Burke as a future starter but at his age he can play here and now this season. But I defer to Fiz and his new dudes to sort this out. I can't really base my opinions on last season and with Horny/Rambis. Good, bad, and different they are history. Fix, Smart and his boys are now in charge an they will work with these guys. I assume there was a plan to his hire regarding Frank, Mudiay, Trey, Timmy, and Ron Ron. For all we know Fiz don't like midget guards and Trey will have to go. I like the term "nuclear PG"! its true and Im long on record that I don't want these guys long term cuz they break. Trey plays hard and he is not a first tier talent like CP3, Mugsy, Calvin, etc.......He is more DJ Augustin then in prime Jameer Nelson. Thats not a bad thing BTW!!!!! I just don't want to build on them. Im deferring on Trae to the coach's on this. May god be with them if he is on the board when we pick!

Intereting Take on Ron Baker. We tend to take most recent impressions and run with it. Ron did some very good things his rookie year to earn that contract. its my opinion he wanted to live up to the hype and got too big last summer. He was hurt from training camp and never recovered.
Just because we don't have video or tweets does not make him out of the game. His return to form is a good thing. Makes him tradable asset if he is serviceable. Some would rather see him fail to validate their disdain for Mills. I'd like to see big Ron kick ass. Nothing bad can come out of that!
.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
newyorknewyork
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6/10/2018  1:34 PM
Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.
smackeddog
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6/10/2018  3:12 PM
Perry said we're just going for a stop gap vet this offseason to save space for next year, so ideally we'd do that Denver's 14th pick for taking on Faried if canter opts out. If not, then I think we'll likely sign a good character front court vet- either Ed Davis (Blazers), Amir Johnson or maybe we go for Bjelica (remember Phil held out on the Rose for Rubio trade because he supposedly wanted him from the Twolves too). Maybe even Joe Johnson.
fwk00
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6/11/2018  12:16 AM
NardDogNation wrote:1.) I hope the Knicks bring in Jason Kidd to be a consultant for our PG's during the offseason and training camp. I think Frank Ntilikina, in particular, could benefit from his tutelage. The role Jason Kidd played for us during the 2012-2013 season is exactly what I'd like to see from Ntilikina moving forward (phenomenal outlet passer, ball mover, defender and shooter).

I doubt Mudiay ever lives up to the hype that made him the seventh pick in the 2015 draft but having arguably the greatest PG of all-time breaking down game film and technique for him could not hurt. If Mudiay could be a poor man's version of Kidd on the break during his prime and Ntilikina as the best version of Kidd after he aged, I think we'd have a pretty compelling backcourt moving forward.


2.) I'm shifting more toward taking the safest pick at 9 (Mikal Bridges), rather than the one with the highest ceiling (Porter, Carter, Sexton, etc). Small market teams have to continually swing for the fences in the draft because it is the only realistic way they have a shot at getting a star-caliber player. That is clearly not us. Our strategy moving forward should be to get as many singles (as opposed to homeruns) in the draft that we can while creating cap space to inevitably sign free agents. It would be optimal if we managed to get cost-control on several inexpensive albeit capable role players via the draft (e.g. Kyle Kuzma, Josh Hart, OG Anounby, Frank Mason Jr., Jordan Bell types) to build our roster. It won't make us into a juggernaut outright but would lay the groundwork to something special because...

"If we build it, they will come". If we have a solid floor AND cap space, we can create a narrative that is compelling enough to sign any all-star with Porzingis already in-tow. Do you think if we had implored this type of strategy sooner and had two max contract spots that we wouldn't be favored to sign both LeBron James and Paul George? We may have missed the window for those two but more disgruntled stars will be available in the future. Moving forward we need to look at any and all options that give us more picks to select "safe picks" in the draft whether that be trading down, acquiring short-term bad contracts with picks attached, etc. I don't care how badly we mangle the cap in the immediate, so long as ALL non-rookie contracts more than $6 million/yr expire BEFORE the 2020-2021 season; aside from Porzingis, obviously.


3.) I'm intrigued by the possibility of signing Mario Hezonja. He has been labeled a bust by many but I think his subpar play has been the result of poor development and a lack of opportunity. He had some impressive games after Aaron Gordon got hurt and the Magic shifted him to the 4 spot, which just so happens to be a position of need for us. I'd look into locking him into a 2+1 deal for a total of $13 million (only $8.5 million guaranteed) to see if he can make good on some of the hype that made him the 5th pick in the 2015 draft.


4.) I prefer to keep Ron Baker as opposed to Trey Burke. I know that this might not be a popular opinion by most but as bad as Baker had been last season; I don't see a generous 5"10 PG offering much utility moving forward. Unless players of that physical profile are nuclear athletes (see Nate Robinson), they generally don't hang around very long in the league. So why waste a roster spot and minutes trying to develop Burke?


5.) Even if Porzingis is ready to return this season, he shouldn't. He's clearly a very skilled player (evidenced by having won the Skills Challenge a few years) but I am becoming concerned about his shot selection and inability to find teammates with the pass. So while his body heals, I hope he uses the opportunity to figure out how best to integrate all his skills like the Sixers had Embiid do.


6.) If I were running the franchise, I'd want to roll into the season with this as my roster...

STARTERS
G: Emmanual Mudiay
G: Frank Ntilikina
F: Mikal Bridges
F: Patrick Patterson
C: Enes Kanter

ROTATION
G: Jerryd Bayless
G/F: Terrance Ferguson
G/F: Chandler Hutchinson or Melvin Frazier
F: Mario Hezonja
C: Joakim Noah

BENCH
PG: Jose Calderon
G/F: Alex Abrines
F: Kyle Singler
F: Lance Thomas
F/C: Kristaps Porzingis (injured)

(JR Smith acquired and waived)

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7060495

Good observations.

1.) I don't see Kidd being a good influence. He's a power hungry kind of guy and although he could theoretically teach PG skills, chances are he'd teach bad basketball behavior as well. I'm not a fan. IMO, Ron Baker has the makings of a very good coach without assuming the title.

I think Mudiay will surprise. Mudiay/Ntilikina may click well this year.

2.) I'm of the opinion that there are no "safe" picks but merely utilitarian picks. The rule generally is "taller is always tradable for smaller" (these days "More athletic always tradable for less athletic"). "Two-way player always superior to one-dimensional", "Younger riskier than old known quality", and so on.

Mikal probably won't be there for us but if he is, just do it. He won't be a superstar but he'll be sufficient (a good thing).

Also, there's nothing obvious about Porzingis. His injury is severe and he wasn't all that to begin with. Knicks need to just build a team. If KP comes back healthy - fine. If he's still mediocre and an A-hole, trade him off quickly - for god's sake don't do a MELO-esque contract.

3.) Yes to Hezonja.

4.) Yes to Baker. Trade Burke for an additional second-rounder. Baker gives you a hard-nosed bench player, Burke a fifth-wheel PG - noise. You want to concentrate on Mudiay and Ntilikina, not guys like Burke.

5.) KP should be preparing a comeback for the playoffs, not much sooner.

6.) Sanely speculative trades - unlikely but *something* along those trade lines will evolve.

NardDogNation
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6/11/2018  1:06 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.

What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.

NardDogNation
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6/11/2018  1:15 AM
smackeddog wrote:Perry said we're just going for a stop gap vet this offseason to save space for next year, so ideally we'd do that Denver's 14th pick for taking on Faried if canter opts out. If not, then I think we'll likely sign a good character front court vet- either Ed Davis (Blazers), Amir Johnson or maybe we go for Bjelica (remember Phil held out on the Rose for Rubio trade because he supposedly wanted him from the Twolves too). Maybe even Joe Johnson.

If Perry meant that, I'd seriously be concerned about the direction of the team. We don't have enough talent to be saving cap space for anyone. I have a bad feeling that they are only doing this in order to target Kyrie Irving, who isn't good enough to turn us into much of anything and tends to draw too much negative attention. We should instead be focusing on developing the talent we already have and getting as many draft picks as we can.

I also think that the Nuggets pick is readily available but unfortunately, we won't have the cap space or flexibility to just absorb Faried's (and likely Arthur's) contract(s). Steve Mills made sure of that when he gave $21 million worth of cap space to Tim Hardaway Jr and Ron Baker last season.

NardDogNation
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6/11/2018  1:27 AM
fwk00 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:1.) I hope the Knicks bring in Jason Kidd to be a consultant for our PG's during the offseason and training camp. I think Frank Ntilikina, in particular, could benefit from his tutelage. The role Jason Kidd played for us during the 2012-2013 season is exactly what I'd like to see from Ntilikina moving forward (phenomenal outlet passer, ball mover, defender and shooter).

I doubt Mudiay ever lives up to the hype that made him the seventh pick in the 2015 draft but having arguably the greatest PG of all-time breaking down game film and technique for him could not hurt. If Mudiay could be a poor man's version of Kidd on the break during his prime and Ntilikina as the best version of Kidd after he aged, I think we'd have a pretty compelling backcourt moving forward.


2.) I'm shifting more toward taking the safest pick at 9 (Mikal Bridges), rather than the one with the highest ceiling (Porter, Carter, Sexton, etc). Small market teams have to continually swing for the fences in the draft because it is the only realistic way they have a shot at getting a star-caliber player. That is clearly not us. Our strategy moving forward should be to get as many singles (as opposed to homeruns) in the draft that we can while creating cap space to inevitably sign free agents. It would be optimal if we managed to get cost-control on several inexpensive albeit capable role players via the draft (e.g. Kyle Kuzma, Josh Hart, OG Anounby, Frank Mason Jr., Jordan Bell types) to build our roster. It won't make us into a juggernaut outright but would lay the groundwork to something special because...

"If we build it, they will come". If we have a solid floor AND cap space, we can create a narrative that is compelling enough to sign any all-star with Porzingis already in-tow. Do you think if we had implored this type of strategy sooner and had two max contract spots that we wouldn't be favored to sign both LeBron James and Paul George? We may have missed the window for those two but more disgruntled stars will be available in the future. Moving forward we need to look at any and all options that give us more picks to select "safe picks" in the draft whether that be trading down, acquiring short-term bad contracts with picks attached, etc. I don't care how badly we mangle the cap in the immediate, so long as ALL non-rookie contracts more than $6 million/yr expire BEFORE the 2020-2021 season; aside from Porzingis, obviously.


3.) I'm intrigued by the possibility of signing Mario Hezonja. He has been labeled a bust by many but I think his subpar play has been the result of poor development and a lack of opportunity. He had some impressive games after Aaron Gordon got hurt and the Magic shifted him to the 4 spot, which just so happens to be a position of need for us. I'd look into locking him into a 2+1 deal for a total of $13 million (only $8.5 million guaranteed) to see if he can make good on some of the hype that made him the 5th pick in the 2015 draft.


4.) I prefer to keep Ron Baker as opposed to Trey Burke. I know that this might not be a popular opinion by most but as bad as Baker had been last season; I don't see a generous 5"10 PG offering much utility moving forward. Unless players of that physical profile are nuclear athletes (see Nate Robinson), they generally don't hang around very long in the league. So why waste a roster spot and minutes trying to develop Burke?


5.) Even if Porzingis is ready to return this season, he shouldn't. He's clearly a very skilled player (evidenced by having won the Skills Challenge a few years) but I am becoming concerned about his shot selection and inability to find teammates with the pass. So while his body heals, I hope he uses the opportunity to figure out how best to integrate all his skills like the Sixers had Embiid do.


6.) If I were running the franchise, I'd want to roll into the season with this as my roster...

STARTERS
G: Emmanual Mudiay
G: Frank Ntilikina
F: Mikal Bridges
F: Patrick Patterson
C: Enes Kanter

ROTATION
G: Jerryd Bayless
G/F: Terrance Ferguson
G/F: Chandler Hutchinson or Melvin Frazier
F: Mario Hezonja
C: Joakim Noah

BENCH
PG: Jose Calderon
G/F: Alex Abrines
F: Kyle Singler
F: Lance Thomas
F/C: Kristaps Porzingis (injured)

(JR Smith acquired and waived)

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7060495

Good observations.

1.) I don't see Kidd being a good influence. He's a power hungry kind of guy and although he could theoretically teach PG skills, chances are he'd teach bad basketball behavior as well. I'm not a fan. IMO, Ron Baker has the makings of a very good coach without assuming the title.

I think Mudiay will surprise. Mudiay/Ntilikina may click well this year.

2.) I'm of the opinion that there are no "safe" picks but merely utilitarian picks. The rule generally is "taller is always tradable for smaller" (these days "More athletic always tradable for less athletic"). "Two-way player always superior to one-dimensional", "Younger riskier than old known quality", and so on.

Mikal probably won't be there for us but if he is, just do it. He won't be a superstar but he'll be sufficient (a good thing).

Also, there's nothing obvious about Porzingis. His injury is severe and he wasn't all that to begin with. Knicks need to just build a team. If KP comes back healthy - fine. If he's still mediocre and an A-hole, trade him off quickly - for god's sake don't do a MELO-esque contract.

3.) Yes to Hezonja.

4.) Yes to Baker. Trade Burke for an additional second-rounder. Baker gives you a hard-nosed bench player, Burke a fifth-wheel PG - noise. You want to concentrate on Mudiay and Ntilikina, not guys like Burke.

5.) KP should be preparing a comeback for the playoffs, not much sooner.

6.) Sanely speculative trades - unlikely but *something* along those trade lines will evolve.

I do think that Jason Kidd can be a bit of a distraction but the right monetary incentives would force him to be a good-soldier. After-all, former athletes tend to live a certain lifestyle that demands a steady stream of income and with most coaching vacancies filled, I could see Kidd biding his time with us. Considering his relationship with players around the league and the job he did developing Giannis, I think he'd be worth the investment.

And I use the term "safe pick" loosely because we all know there is inherent risk with any selection. However, there are always college juniors and seniors that regularly fall in the draft that can be serviceable role players in the league. Those are the types of guys we should be looking to recruit despite their ceilings being low. And given the trends of past drafts, I think Bridges will be available late because he fits this description.

NardDogNation
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6/11/2018  1:41 AM
Nalod wrote:1. Kidd the great player is not our coach. You don't let a severe Alpha near your players unless they are on the sTaff. We just retooled our whole coaching staff. Lets let them do their thing. If Frank was to be kept we likely hired some coach's to emphasize his growth. Kidd the player is not kidd the coach and you just can't teach certain things. Frank was seen by Phill as something special. Maybe it was Gaines. Just because Phil the bat shyt nutty exec was not great at that role, Phil the HOF great coach does know a few things about great players. Thats not a guarantee on Frank, but lets give the process a chance.

2. Find any draft position on Huerter than Briggs daily player flavor of the moment video eye candy? Not saying don't try to get him, but can he be had with a late 1st rounder? Second round pick? Take him 9th? Its a fixable offense. Tapscott like. If Im wrong, good for knicks and Briggs ego.

3. Does talk among us actually mean Clippers picks are there for our pleasure? Who said this is valid offering available? This more "we the mecca" thing or an actually rumor?

4. Some of us can talk like real experts but if you making it up its bullshyt. Throw out 30 ideas and keep repeating it does not make it valid.
Have an opinion, thats cool. Talk like its out there cuz thats how you would see it does not make it valid. Im not directing it at anyone. Maybe Briggs. He has many failures. We can appreciate him sticking his neck out but really what is his consequence? Throw out a bunch of players? If he read the team we'd have white side, charles White, Clarkson, and Thabeet still. She good ones and bad ones are all out there.

I don't see Trey Burke as a future starter but at his age he can play here and now this season. But I defer to Fiz and his new dudes to sort this out. I can't really base my opinions on last season and with Horny/Rambis. Good, bad, and different they are history. Fix, Smart and his boys are now in charge an they will work with these guys. I assume there was a plan to his hire regarding Frank, Mudiay, Trey, Timmy, and Ron Ron. For all we know Fiz don't like midget guards and Trey will have to go. I like the term "nuclear PG"! its true and Im long on record that I don't want these guys long term cuz they break. Trey plays hard and he is not a first tier talent like CP3, Mugsy, Calvin, etc.......He is more DJ Augustin then in prime Jameer Nelson. Thats not a bad thing BTW!!!!! I just don't want to build on them. Im deferring on Trae to the coach's on this. May god be with them if he is on the board when we pick!

Intereting Take on Ron Baker. We tend to take most recent impressions and run with it. Ron did some very good things his rookie year to earn that contract. its my opinion he wanted to live up to the hype and got too big last summer. He was hurt from training camp and never recovered.
Just because we don't have video or tweets does not make him out of the game. His return to form is a good thing. Makes him tradable asset if he is serviceable. Some would rather see him fail to validate their disdain for Mills. I'd like to see big Ron kick ass. Nothing bad can come out of that!
.

Kidd has attracted drama at his previous destinations but he will have to bide his time until the next cycle of heading coaching jobs become available. If we make the money right, I think he'd be willing to play good-soldier until he finds a full-time gig. A great deal of what he did as a player was God-given but what made him especially dangerous was how he thought the game. And the way how a player thinks the game is about the only thing you really can quantify and replicate in part. There is no guarantee that this partnership would yield any type of success but what do we really have to lose by trying? We've seen what he did for the flicker of light in Brandon Knight's career. We've seen what he's done for Giannis.

As for Huerter, I definitely would not take him at 9 but actually like the idea of getting him as a 2nd pick. His skillset is rare in the league and I can see him being something of a poor man's Mike Miller moving forward.

The Clippers have been rumored to be interested in moving up into the draft. Whether that is true, remains to be seen. What I do know is the Clippers will not make the playoffs next year and are set to pay the luxury tax unless they unload salary. And considering how talented this draft is and how rare it is for a team to absorb salary, the Knicks are in a unique position to make a deal worth the Clippers while.

I'd be comfortable trading down in the draft, largely because of Fizdale and his supposed ability to develop talent. Two picks under this context would be better than one.

martin
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6/11/2018  11:34 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
Kidd has attracted drama at his previous destinations but he will have to bide his time until the next cycle of heading coaching jobs become available. If we make the money right, I think he'd be willing to play good-soldier until he finds a full-time gig.

You just kinda made that up out of nowhere. Right kind of money? What's that even mean?

Kidd is a power hungry guy who wants to be a head coach and will stab anyone in the back to get that type of position. Why introduce that type of player into the mix and hope and prey he doesn't fall back to his normal habits?

Makes ZERO sense.

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TripleThreat
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6/11/2018  11:39 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.

What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.


The Knicks could give up just their current first round pick this year and get the Clippers 12 and 13 straight out. No need to take back any other contracts. I'm not saying they should do it, I am saying the market value would mean the trade could, in theory, occur straight out. There are serious diminishing returns on 12 and 13 from the Knicks current position.

If Courtney Lee and/or Tim Hardaway Jr could have been moved to get another late lottery pick, it would have been done already. If both could have been moved for zero positive assets in return but the appeal of just shedding the contracts as a whole, it would have been done already.

Neither has positive trade value. Lee will NEVER have positive trade value with the Knicks on his current contract. NEVER. I said NEVER. He is a somewhat useful player, but the cost of a pick or a player for his production and his cap hold for two seasons, and the opportunity cost of using that 12 million AAV in free agency for the non Knicks team is too prohibitive.

THJr has no current trade value. That might change in the future, but not right now. Not even close.

No one wants to hear this, but the Knicks are likely going to have to let Lance Thomas, Courtney Lee, Joaquim Noah and THJr all expire naturally off the roster. Phil Jackson just totally horsef**ked this team.

If you want Luol Deng or Brandon Knight or Miles Teletovic and a small asset coming back, then maybe there's a trade out there. The same reason you want to dump certain Knicks players IS THE EXACT SAME REASON THE NON KNICKS TEAM DOES NOT WANT THEM. What is it about that which appears to be so difficult for many Knicks fans to digest?

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
newyorknewyork
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6/11/2018  11:56 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.

What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.

I get your vision of basically replacing Tim and Lee for Huerter and Mikal. I just believe we could get more assets back. Tim could get a late first and an expiring at team like Utah for Burks and 21 would probably bite easy. Which would be funny moving Tim at the draft twice. For that same Lee inclusion we should be getting 2 future 2nd rounders from OKC instead of giving one up. The #8 can possible nab #12 and #13 alone especially if a dude viewed as top flight talent drops. Then we shouldnt sell based on #8 value but value of what that player is. Taking on Gallo's contract as well is tough. #8 and #21 would land #12-13 and other compensation without taking on Gallos contract but Burks for example.

fwk00
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6/11/2018  12:23 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.

What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.

I get your vision of basically replacing Tim and Lee for Huerter and Mikal. I just believe we could get more assets back. Tim could get a late first and an expiring at team like Utah for Burks and 21 would probably bite easy. Which would be funny moving Tim at the draft twice. For that same Lee inclusion we should be getting 2 future 2nd rounders from OKC instead of giving one up. The #8 can possible nab #12 and #13 alone especially if a dude viewed as top flight talent drops. Then we shouldnt sell based on #8 value but value of what that player is. Taking on Gallo's contract as well is tough. #8 and #21 would land #12-13 and other compensation without taking on Gallos contract but Burks for example.

I recetly read something that talked about Gallo essentially dumping on Mudiay as a rookie - basically riding him in Denver. Doesn't sound like the kind of guy needed on a young team.

BigDaddyG
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6/11/2018  1:27 PM
fwk00 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.

What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.

I get your vision of basically replacing Tim and Lee for Huerter and Mikal. I just believe we could get more assets back. Tim could get a late first and an expiring at team like Utah for Burks and 21 would probably bite easy. Which would be funny moving Tim at the draft twice. For that same Lee inclusion we should be getting 2 future 2nd rounders from OKC instead of giving one up. The #8 can possible nab #12 and #13 alone especially if a dude viewed as top flight talent drops. Then we shouldnt sell based on #8 value but value of what that player is. Taking on Gallo's contract as well is tough. #8 and #21 would land #12-13 and other compensation without taking on Gallos contract but Burks for example.

I recetly read something that talked about Gallo essentially dumping on Mudiay as a rookie - basically riding him in Denver. Doesn't sound like the kind of guy needed on a young team.


Maybe, I think a lot of players might of dumped on rookie year Mudiay. There are enough models and restaurants here to distract Gallo from the tank.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
elmaestro33
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6/11/2018  2:31 PM
NardDogNation wrote:1.) I hope the Knicks bring in Jason Kidd to be a consultant for our PG's during the offseason and training camp. I think Frank Ntilikina, in particular, could benefit from his tutelage. The role Jason Kidd played for us during the 2012-2013 season is exactly what I'd like to see from Ntilikina moving forward (phenomenal outlet passer, ball mover, defender and shooter).

I doubt Mudiay ever lives up to the hype that made him the seventh pick in the 2015 draft but having arguably the greatest PG of all-time breaking down game film and technique for him could not hurt. If Mudiay could be a poor man's version of Kidd on the break during his prime and Ntilikina as the best version of Kidd after he aged, I think we'd have a pretty compelling backcourt moving forward.


2.) I'm shifting more toward taking the safest pick at 9 (Mikal Bridges), rather than the one with the highest ceiling (Porter, Carter, Sexton, etc). Small market teams have to continually swing for the fences in the draft because it is the only realistic way they have a shot at getting a star-caliber player. That is clearly not us. Our strategy moving forward should be to get as many singles (as opposed to homeruns) in the draft that we can while creating cap space to inevitably sign free agents. It would be optimal if we managed to get cost-control on several inexpensive albeit capable role players via the draft (e.g. Kyle Kuzma, Josh Hart, OG Anounby, Frank Mason Jr., Jordan Bell types) to build our roster. It won't make us into a juggernaut outright but would lay the groundwork to something special because...

"If we build it, they will come". If we have a solid floor AND cap space, we can create a narrative that is compelling enough to sign any all-star with Porzingis already in-tow. Do you think if we had implored this type of strategy sooner and had two max contract spots that we wouldn't be favored to sign both LeBron James and Paul George? We may have missed the window for those two but more disgruntled stars will be available in the future. Moving forward we need to look at any and all options that give us more picks to select "safe picks" in the draft whether that be trading down, acquiring short-term bad contracts with picks attached, etc. I don't care how badly we mangle the cap in the immediate, so long as ALL non-rookie contracts more than $6 million/yr expire BEFORE the 2020-2021 season; aside from Porzingis, obviously.


3.) I'm intrigued by the possibility of signing Mario Hezonja. He has been labeled a bust by many but I think his subpar play has been the result of poor development and a lack of opportunity. He had some impressive games after Aaron Gordon got hurt and the Magic shifted him to the 4 spot, which just so happens to be a position of need for us. I'd look into locking him into a 2+1 deal for a total of $13 million (only $8.5 million guaranteed) to see if he can make good on some of the hype that made him the 5th pick in the 2015 draft.


4.) I prefer to keep Ron Baker as opposed to Trey Burke. I know that this might not be a popular opinion by most but as bad as Baker had been last season; I don't see a generous 5"10 PG offering much utility moving forward. Unless players of that physical profile are nuclear athletes (see Nate Robinson), they generally don't hang around very long in the league. So why waste a roster spot and minutes trying to develop Burke?


5.) Even if Porzingis is ready to return this season, he shouldn't. He's clearly a very skilled player (evidenced by having won the Skills Challenge a few years) but I am becoming concerned about his shot selection and inability to find teammates with the pass. So while his body heals, I hope he uses the opportunity to figure out how best to integrate all his skills like the Sixers had Embiid do.


6.) If I were running the franchise, I'd want to roll into the season with this as my roster...

STARTERS
G: Emmanual Mudiay
G: Frank Ntilikina
F: Mikal Bridges
F: Patrick Patterson
C: Enes Kanter

ROTATION
G: Jerryd Bayless
G/F: Terrance Ferguson
G/F: Chandler Hutchinson or Melvin Frazier
F: Mario Hezonja
C: Joakim Noah

BENCH
PG: Jose Calderon
G/F: Alex Abrines
F: Kyle Singler
F: Lance Thomas
F/C: Kristaps Porzingis (injured)

(JR Smith acquired and waived)

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7060495

There's no way Kidd is taking a job as PG consultant of the Knicks... LOL. The guy is a head coach and won't accept anything less. He'll get his shot.

What is your rationale for that trade? Seems like we're giving up Timmy and Dotson for T. Ferguson and a bunch of old throw-ins.

BigRedDog
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6/11/2018  3:42 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.

What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.


The Knicks could give up just their current first round pick this year and get the Clippers 12 and 13 straight out. No need to take back any other contracts. I'm not saying they should do it, I am saying the market value would mean the trade could, in theory, occur straight out. There are serious diminishing returns on 12 and 13 from the Knicks current position.

If Courtney Lee and/or Tim Hardaway Jr could have been moved to get another late lottery pick, it would have been done already. If both could have been moved for zero positive assets in return but the appeal of just shedding the contracts as a whole, it would have been done already.

Neither has positive trade value. Lee will NEVER have positive trade value with the Knicks on his current contract. NEVER. I said NEVER. He is a somewhat useful player, but the cost of a pick or a player for his production and his cap hold for two seasons, and the opportunity cost of using that 12 million AAV in free agency for the non Knicks team is too prohibitive.

THJr has no current trade value. That might change in the future, but not right now. Not even close.

No one wants to hear this, but the Knicks are likely going to have to let Lance Thomas, Courtney Lee, Joaquim Noah and THJr all expire naturally off the roster. Phil Jackson just totally horsef**ked this team.

If you want Luol Deng or Brandon Knight or Miles Teletovic and a small asset coming back, then maybe there's a trade out there. The same reason you want to dump certain Knicks players IS THE EXACT SAME REASON THE NON KNICKS TEAM DOES NOT WANT THEM. What is it about that which appears to be so difficult for many Knicks fans to digest?

You have NO facts to back up that the Knicks could get #12,13 for #9. This isn't the NFL where GM's use a chart for value and trades are a lot easier to make. No f'in clue, just fake news. Next year someone will write, " we could have traded #9 for #12,13" based on this assumption.

Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
NardDogNation
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6/11/2018  7:57 PM
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Kidd has attracted drama at his previous destinations but he will have to bide his time until the next cycle of heading coaching jobs become available. If we make the money right, I think he'd be willing to play good-soldier until he finds a full-time gig.

You just kinda made that up out of nowhere. Right kind of money? What's that even mean?

Kidd is a power hungry guy who wants to be a head coach and will stab anyone in the back to get that type of position. Why introduce that type of player into the mix and hope and prey he doesn't fall back to his normal habits?

Makes ZERO sense.

And if that is thought to be the case, what do you think his chances are for landing a coaching gig in the near future? Clearly he'd have to do some rehabilitation on his image before that can occur. To that end, we can benefit him and he can benefit us. We're one of the few teams in the league developing multiple young PGs who Kidd can positively impact. Should any of them take a leap in their development, it would only help to strengthen his credentials for his next destination as head coach.

NardDogNation
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6/11/2018  8:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/11/2018  8:22 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.

What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.

I get your vision of basically replacing Tim and Lee for Huerter and Mikal. I just believe we could get more assets back. Tim could get a late first and an expiring at team like Utah for Burks and 21 would probably bite easy. Which would be funny moving Tim at the draft twice. For that same Lee inclusion we should be getting 2 future 2nd rounders from OKC instead of giving one up. The #8 can possible nab #12 and #13 alone especially if a dude viewed as top flight talent drops. Then we shouldnt sell based on #8 value but value of what that player is. Taking on Gallo's contract as well is tough. #8 and #21 would land #12-13 and other compensation without taking on Gallos contract but Burks for example.

I actually think Burke has more value than Hardaway Jr when healthy. Burke is a better all-around player and his contract is more team friendly. The only problem with him is that he's hardly ever healthy. But with Donovan Mitchell and Joel Ingles in the fold, I don't really see the Jazz even needing Hardaway (remember that they also have Crowder and Sefolosha at the 3 as well).

I am a fan of Gallinari but like you, I think that contract is awful. It does expire after the 2019-2020 season along with Joakim Noah, Courtney Lee and Lance Thomas' contracts though. So if the deal I proposed worked, we'd basically be substituting Lee and Thomas for Gallinari's money. That means there would not be much of a net gain to our payroll, we'd get the better player, a freed roster spot and an additional lottery pick. That seems like a reasonable tradeoff for us.

Some Random Thoughts

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