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Some Random Thoughts
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NardDogNation
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6/11/2018  8:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/11/2018  8:16 PM
elmaestro33 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:1.) I hope the Knicks bring in Jason Kidd to be a consultant for our PG's during the offseason and training camp. I think Frank Ntilikina, in particular, could benefit from his tutelage. The role Jason Kidd played for us during the 2012-2013 season is exactly what I'd like to see from Ntilikina moving forward (phenomenal outlet passer, ball mover, defender and shooter).

I doubt Mudiay ever lives up to the hype that made him the seventh pick in the 2015 draft but having arguably the greatest PG of all-time breaking down game film and technique for him could not hurt. If Mudiay could be a poor man's version of Kidd on the break during his prime and Ntilikina as the best version of Kidd after he aged, I think we'd have a pretty compelling backcourt moving forward.


2.) I'm shifting more toward taking the safest pick at 9 (Mikal Bridges), rather than the one with the highest ceiling (Porter, Carter, Sexton, etc). Small market teams have to continually swing for the fences in the draft because it is the only realistic way they have a shot at getting a star-caliber player. That is clearly not us. Our strategy moving forward should be to get as many singles (as opposed to homeruns) in the draft that we can while creating cap space to inevitably sign free agents. It would be optimal if we managed to get cost-control on several inexpensive albeit capable role players via the draft (e.g. Kyle Kuzma, Josh Hart, OG Anounby, Frank Mason Jr., Jordan Bell types) to build our roster. It won't make us into a juggernaut outright but would lay the groundwork to something special because...

"If we build it, they will come". If we have a solid floor AND cap space, we can create a narrative that is compelling enough to sign any all-star with Porzingis already in-tow. Do you think if we had implored this type of strategy sooner and had two max contract spots that we wouldn't be favored to sign both LeBron James and Paul George? We may have missed the window for those two but more disgruntled stars will be available in the future. Moving forward we need to look at any and all options that give us more picks to select "safe picks" in the draft whether that be trading down, acquiring short-term bad contracts with picks attached, etc. I don't care how badly we mangle the cap in the immediate, so long as ALL non-rookie contracts more than $6 million/yr expire BEFORE the 2020-2021 season; aside from Porzingis, obviously.


3.) I'm intrigued by the possibility of signing Mario Hezonja. He has been labeled a bust by many but I think his subpar play has been the result of poor development and a lack of opportunity. He had some impressive games after Aaron Gordon got hurt and the Magic shifted him to the 4 spot, which just so happens to be a position of need for us. I'd look into locking him into a 2+1 deal for a total of $13 million (only $8.5 million guaranteed) to see if he can make good on some of the hype that made him the 5th pick in the 2015 draft.


4.) I prefer to keep Ron Baker as opposed to Trey Burke. I know that this might not be a popular opinion by most but as bad as Baker had been last season; I don't see a generous 5"10 PG offering much utility moving forward. Unless players of that physical profile are nuclear athletes (see Nate Robinson), they generally don't hang around very long in the league. So why waste a roster spot and minutes trying to develop Burke?


5.) Even if Porzingis is ready to return this season, he shouldn't. He's clearly a very skilled player (evidenced by having won the Skills Challenge a few years) but I am becoming concerned about his shot selection and inability to find teammates with the pass. So while his body heals, I hope he uses the opportunity to figure out how best to integrate all his skills like the Sixers had Embiid do.


6.) If I were running the franchise, I'd want to roll into the season with this as my roster...

STARTERS
G: Emmanual Mudiay
G: Frank Ntilikina
F: Mikal Bridges
F: Patrick Patterson
C: Enes Kanter

ROTATION
G: Jerryd Bayless
G/F: Terrance Ferguson
G/F: Chandler Hutchinson or Melvin Frazier
F: Mario Hezonja
C: Joakim Noah

BENCH
PG: Jose Calderon
G/F: Alex Abrines
F: Kyle Singler
F: Lance Thomas
F/C: Kristaps Porzingis (injured)

(JR Smith acquired and waived)

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7060495

There's no way Kidd is taking a job as PG consultant of the Knicks... LOL. The guy is a head coach and won't accept anything less. He'll get his shot.

What is your rationale for that trade? Seems like we're giving up Timmy and Dotson for T. Ferguson and a bunch of old throw-ins.

Last I checked, Jason Kidd is the odd-man out as far as head coaches go. So rather than sit out the year, why not help develop possible proteges (ala Hakeem Olajuwon)? There is no worst case scenario to this situation, given his circumstances i.e. no job and no prospects.

As for the trade, the objective would be to create cap flexibility (Abrines' $5 million expiring contract) and to acquire a higher upside (Terrance Ferguson vs Dotson). Both those things are assets to rebuilding teams.

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NardDogNation
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6/11/2018  9:27 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/11/2018  9:33 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.

What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.


The Knicks could give up just their current first round pick this year and get the Clippers 12 and 13 straight out. No need to take back any other contracts. I'm not saying they should do it, I am saying the market value would mean the trade could, in theory, occur straight out. There are serious diminishing returns on 12 and 13 from the Knicks current position.

If Courtney Lee and/or Tim Hardaway Jr could have been moved to get another late lottery pick, it would have been done already. If both could have been moved for zero positive assets in return but the appeal of just shedding the contracts as a whole, it would have been done already.

Neither has positive trade value. Lee will NEVER have positive trade value with the Knicks on his current contract. NEVER. I said NEVER. He is a somewhat useful player, but the cost of a pick or a player for his production and his cap hold for two seasons, and the opportunity cost of using that 12 million AAV in free agency for the non Knicks team is too prohibitive.

THJr has no current trade value. That might change in the future, but not right now. Not even close.

No one wants to hear this, but the Knicks are likely going to have to let Lance Thomas, Courtney Lee, Joaquim Noah and THJr all expire naturally off the roster. Phil Jackson just totally horsef**ked this team.

If you want Luol Deng or Brandon Knight or Miles Teletovic and a small asset coming back, then maybe there's a trade out there. The same reason you want to dump certain Knicks players IS THE EXACT SAME REASON THE NON KNICKS TEAM DOES NOT WANT THEM. What is it about that which appears to be so difficult for many Knicks fans to digest?

I feel that we are constantly characterizing contracts as being unmoveable, only to see them later moved. Mozgov was one of the more recent examples (traded from the Lakers to the Nets) but several others also come to mind (e.g. Allen Crabbe, Andrew Nicholson, Carmelo Anthony, Nene, Brandon Knight, Hedo Turkoglu, Ben Gordon. Gilbert Arenas, Rashard Lewis, Juwan Howard, Chris Webber, Zach Randolph, etc.). Finding a taker usually involves eating a small amount of **** and/or surrendering other items of value but it can be done.

Take the Thunder for example who have a sunk cost equivalent to Lee's salary in Abrines and Singler. Why would they be averse to acquiring Lee when taking into account that they are caplocked whether Paul George stays or goes; have a deficit of talent at 2 guard; and will be forced to "win-now"with Westbrook, Adams, Anthony and Roberson under contract? Seems like a reasonable pairing when you consider that all that will really work on a Westbrook-led team are 3-and-D types.

martin
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6/11/2018  11:36 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Kidd has attracted drama at his previous destinations but he will have to bide his time until the next cycle of heading coaching jobs become available. If we make the money right, I think he'd be willing to play good-soldier until he finds a full-time gig.

You just kinda made that up out of nowhere. Right kind of money? What's that even mean?

Kidd is a power hungry guy who wants to be a head coach and will stab anyone in the back to get that type of position. Why introduce that type of player into the mix and hope and prey he doesn't fall back to his normal habits?

Makes ZERO sense.

And if that is thought to be the case, what do you think his chances are for landing a coaching gig in the near future? Clearly he'd have to do some rehabilitation on his image before that can occur. To that end, we can benefit him and he can benefit us. We're one of the few teams in the league developing multiple young PGs who Kidd can positively impact. Should any of them take a leap in their development, it would only help to strengthen his credentials for his next destination as head coach.

Name one coach who rehabbed his rep as a former head coach that made his way back as a assistant coach.

Kidd has probably made between $50-100M as a player and your premise is that he will be overpaid as an assistant dev coach for PGs. What would you pay him?

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fwk00
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6/12/2018  12:12 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.

What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.


The Knicks could give up just their current first round pick this year and get the Clippers 12 and 13 straight out. No need to take back any other contracts. I'm not saying they should do it, I am saying the market value would mean the trade could, in theory, occur straight out. There are serious diminishing returns on 12 and 13 from the Knicks current position.

If Courtney Lee and/or Tim Hardaway Jr could have been moved to get another late lottery pick, it would have been done already. If both could have been moved for zero positive assets in return but the appeal of just shedding the contracts as a whole, it would have been done already.

Neither has positive trade value. Lee will NEVER have positive trade value with the Knicks on his current contract. NEVER. I said NEVER. He is a somewhat useful player, but the cost of a pick or a player for his production and his cap hold for two seasons, and the opportunity cost of using that 12 million AAV in free agency for the non Knicks team is too prohibitive.

THJr has no current trade value. That might change in the future, but not right now. Not even close.

No one wants to hear this, but the Knicks are likely going to have to let Lance Thomas, Courtney Lee, Joaquim Noah and THJr all expire naturally off the roster. Phil Jackson just totally horsef**ked this team.

If you want Luol Deng or Brandon Knight or Miles Teletovic and a small asset coming back, then maybe there's a trade out there. The same reason you want to dump certain Knicks players IS THE EXACT SAME REASON THE NON KNICKS TEAM DOES NOT WANT THEM. What is it about that which appears to be so difficult for many Knicks fans to digest?

I feel that we are constantly characterizing contracts as being unmoveable, only to see them later moved. Mozgov was one of the more recent examples (traded from the Lakers to the Nets) but several others also come to mind (e.g. Allen Crabbe, Andrew Nicholson, Carmelo Anthony, Nene, Brandon Knight, Hedo Turkoglu, Ben Gordon. Gilbert Arenas, Rashard Lewis, Juwan Howard, Chris Webber, Zach Randolph, etc.). Finding a taker usually involves eating a small amount of **** and/or surrendering other items of value but it can be done.

Take the Thunder for example who have a sunk cost equivalent to Lee's salary in Abrines and Singler. Why would they be averse to acquiring Lee when taking into account that they are caplocked whether Paul George stays or goes; have a deficit of talent at 2 guard; and will be forced to "win-now"with Westbrook, Adams, Anthony and Roberson under contract? Seems like a reasonable pairing when you consider that all that will really work on a Westbrook-led team are 3-and-D types.

You are correct. These forum boards perennially announce that this guy and that are untradable, never-gonna-happen-in-a-million-years, impossible to trade. And within months most of them are all wearing different uniforms.

NardDogNation
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6/12/2018  12:26 AM
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Kidd has attracted drama at his previous destinations but he will have to bide his time until the next cycle of heading coaching jobs become available. If we make the money right, I think he'd be willing to play good-soldier until he finds a full-time gig.

You just kinda made that up out of nowhere. Right kind of money? What's that even mean?

Kidd is a power hungry guy who wants to be a head coach and will stab anyone in the back to get that type of position. Why introduce that type of player into the mix and hope and prey he doesn't fall back to his normal habits?

Makes ZERO sense.

And if that is thought to be the case, what do you think his chances are for landing a coaching gig in the near future? Clearly he'd have to do some rehabilitation on his image before that can occur. To that end, we can benefit him and he can benefit us. We're one of the few teams in the league developing multiple young PGs who Kidd can positively impact. Should any of them take a leap in their development, it would only help to strengthen his credentials for his next destination as head coach.

Name one coach who rehabbed his rep as a former head coach that made his way back as a assistant coach.

Kidd has probably made between $50-100M as a player and your premise is that he will be overpaid as an assistant dev coach for PGs. What would you pay him?

PJ Carlesimo. He was fired by the Warriors in 1999 following a bad record and the fallout from the Latrell Sprewell incident, was hired by the Spurs in 2002 as an assistant, got a head coaching job with the Sonics in 2007....then was fired and never was considered for a head coaching position again. But is your contention that Jason Kidd will never be a head coach in this league again? I don't get what the purpose of this exercise was for.

As for an offer, I'm not sure. I've never spoken with Kidd and wouldn't know what his contract demands would be. But we print money, so I'm not sure why money should be any concern to begin with. We're paying Joakim Noah $18 million a season to make videos of himself roaming a forest. We've paid Phil Jackson $12 million a year to live in Montana/California for the better part of the NBA season. Not sure why we'd have to draw a line with Jason Kidd. After all, he has been one of the most skilled and cerebral players to ever play the game. I'm not seeing much downside in bringing him in to have his brain-picked by Mudiay and Ntilikina who have similar physical profiles to him.


I also never mentioned anything about Kidd being an assistant coach. I recommended we bring him on to help players in seminars during the offseason and during training camp, sort of like what Hakeem was doing before the Rockets hired him full-time to work exclusively with their players. That is a precedent that I think we should try to replicate. It's not like Kidd has very many avenues to earn income other than basketball and he probably could use the income until he's able to land a full-time job with a franchise.

Nalod
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6/12/2018  8:18 AM
what has Kidd done as a coach that warrants this consideration?
Does he really want to get back to being a coach? Have not heard him interviewing.
personally I would not let him near a new coaching staff. They need to define their own authority.
Hakeem was paid by players. Nothing says Kidd can’t do this. John Lucas did this for years. “Pete Newells big man camps” were famous for years. Hakeem built his reputation.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
NardDogNation
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6/15/2018  12:58 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.

I feel that we are constantly characterizing contracts as being unmoveable, only to see them later moved. Mozgov was one of the more recent examples (traded from the Lakers to the Nets) but several others also come to mind (e.g. Allen Crabbe, Andrew Nicholson, Carmelo Anthony, Nene, Brandon Knight, Hedo Turkoglu, Ben Gordon. Gilbert Arenas, Rashard Lewis, Juwan Howard, Chris Webber, Zach Randolph, etc.). Finding a taker usually involves eating a small amount of **** and/or surrendering other items of value but it can be done.

You are correct. These forum boards perennially announce that this guy and that are untradable, never-gonna-happen-in-a-million-years, impossible to trade. And within months most of them are all wearing different uniforms.


OK, first off, the Knicks are not getting a 2nd lottery pick by means of using Lee and Hardaway Jr in a trade or a combination of trades. Not unless the Knicks cough up several first round draft picks in the future to do so. Trading future first round picks makes no sense for the Knicks. Lee and Hardaway Jr alone will not net a 2nd lottery pick. If this was Briggs or EnySpree or Knicks1248, any of those mouthbreathers, I'd write it off self inflicted ignorance. But NardDog, you have posted relatively interesting and insightful things in the past, so this is just plain dumb.

You are pointing out previous trades where

A) Many of which were "Challenge Trades" i.e. Arenas for Lewis, which means one bloated contract problem for another bloated contract problem. If you mean Noah for a Luol Deng, then sure, that might be possible. But that doesn't help the team, short or long term, and it does not help them get this 2nd lottery pick you discuss

B) Many of which occur SEVERAL INCARNATIONS OF THE CBA ago. When the tax line was different, cost control was different, rim protection cost different, there were no "attack guards", the use of the three point shot was different, the Mid Level Exception existed in a functional form, as did Sign And Trades.

C) The player Melo had a No Trade Clause. So yes, announcing he's untradeable isn't so far fetched.

D) Salaries were dumped so teams could avoid the tax line. Crabbe was dumped by a team who wanted to get out of the tax zone. So what's the trade here? THJr for zero return, just to clear his salary? Maybe a team might do that, but there is no 2nd lottery pick coming from it.

E) Mozgov was dumped by means of sending the SECOND OVERALL PICK IN HIS RESPECTIVE DRAFT STILL ON HIS ROOKIE CONTRACT with him.

Sending future first round picks is just plain dumb. Knicks aren't going to do that.

The players they have that merit some trade value ( Frank N and Zinger) are ones they want to keep.

The rest of the players they have zero to no current trade value. They aren't getting a 2nd lottery pick out of it.

What are these other "items of value" besides future 1st round picks?

NardDog, you plainly are just not this dumb. You are clearly not dumb. Your trade assertions however are dumb. Would you trade a lottery pick for Lee and Hardaway Jr under The Mirror Test? Then why should the non Knicks team? Take the things that the Knicks won't give up ( Frank N, Zinger, future 1sts) and what do they have left to trade that doesn't require a bad contract coming back or require positive assets packaged to dump a Knicks player they don't want?

I never suggested that THJr and Lee could get us a lottery pick outright. I feel that I've been fairly explicit that their contracts/value are a bit prohibitive and should be offloaded elsewhere is possible. The only reason why their names were brought up is because their contracts could be used to acquire more money and similarly bad contracts that can allow us to play around with our draft seedings IN CONJUNCTION with the 9th pick.

Jmpasq
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6/16/2018  9:57 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/16/2018  7:17 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks would be giving up the #8, Timmy, Lee & #36 for #12,13 Gallo, and savings on Lee's contract. I feel Knicks would be giving up to much.

What kind of future do we really have with Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee? I believe Hardaway's contract makes him an impediment moving forward and Lee's play as a veteran is lost on a rebuilding team. I think we'd be much better served by using them to augment a nascent core with two lottery picks as opposed to just one; especially when you consider some of the players rumored to be available. Should Mikal or Miles Bridges and a Kevin Huerter be available with those picks, I'd make the move.

I get your vision of basically replacing Tim and Lee for Huerter and Mikal. I just believe we could get more assets back. Tim could get a late first and an expiring at team like Utah for Burks and 21 would probably bite easy. Which would be funny moving Tim at the draft twice. For that same Lee inclusion we should be getting 2 future 2nd rounders from OKC instead of giving one up. The #8 can possible nab #12 and #13 alone especially if a dude viewed as top flight talent drops. Then we shouldnt sell based on #8 value but value of what that player is. Taking on Gallo's contract as well is tough. #8 and #21 would land #12-13 and other compensation without taking on Gallos contract but Burks for example.

Tim Hardaway Jr is not getting the Knicks a positive asset. The best you could hope for is a shorter worse contract. I think we would actually have to give a pick away to straight up get rid of him. Why do you think an NBA team would want to pay him 18 million and give us a first round pick? Its insane. That trade is akin to asking someone to kick you in the nuts and buying them a pair of steel tipped boots to do the job.

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Some Random Thoughts

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