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Take Parsons... see if you can get pick #4
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fwk00
Posts: 22130
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5/27/2018  2:50 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

The Grizz, assuming they want to maximize their existing talent, don't necessarily need a high draft pick this year. First high draft picks are expensive and expensive to develop while trying to win games.

If they trade #4 for a future first, their ability to retool the team with a youth movement stays intact and they fill out the roster with more immediate reinforcements. This may actually be the year the Knicks have more opportunity to offer that kind of deal than anyone else

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BigDaddyG
Posts: 37419
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5/27/2018  3:26 PM
fwk00 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

The Grizz, assuming they want to maximize their existing talent, don't necessarily need a high draft pick this year. First high draft picks are expensive and expensive to develop while trying to win games.

If they trade #4 for a future first, their ability to retool the team with a youth movement stays intact and they fill out the roster with more immediate reinforcements. This may actually be the year the Knicks have more opportunity to offer that kind of deal than anyone else


The lower down you draft, the higher the chance for failure. High draft picks are expensive, sure. But so are free agents. See THJ's contract. I don't see them dealing it for a pu pu platter of THJ and Lee. They can get a better deal if that's their intention. They're gonna want future firsts or Frank and a future first. That's in addition to 9#. Maybe that gets a deal done.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
fwk00
Posts: 22130
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5/27/2018  4:00 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

I think they'd be motivated to trade down because of that poor drafting history. Doing so would allow them to mitigate the risk of only having their pick by acquiring additional "assets" as well as another, lower lottery pick. So just in case they screw up and draft a bad player, they can always point to the fact that they replaced dead money, with productive players.

But let's be real: Mikal Bridges at 9 is as safe a pick as you can get in the draft. While he may have a low ceiling, he has a fairly high floor given his skillset and how critical it is in today's NBA. Just look at how badly guys like Chandler Parsons, Harrison Barnes, MKG, Otto Porter, Evan Turner and DeMarre Carroll got overpaid and you can begin to guage how valuable swingmen with length and skill are. Bridges will be a rotation player for the next decade and will always be in demand (i.e. tradeable). So in actuality, the Grizzlies are getting 3 players that can help them immediately at positions of need that are hard to find in the league. That should have legitimate value, which should demand a similarly valuable return.

Besides, at 4, I see nothing but a lot of high risk-high reward propositions for them and other teams in that range. Porter is the best of that group but with a bad back, would you stake your franchise's future squarely on him becoming a success? In their predicament, I'm not sure I would. But with us being a big market, free agency is always an option to acquire a star, which allows us to draft a bust every now-and-again.

Well, look, the history of the draft tells us that whoever is projected to fall to the Knicks is snatched up beforehand. This could simply be the by-product of the NY media and market-hype. Mykal will not last to #9. He's become a safe pick for a squeamish franchise picking ahead of us. The GM can do a hamster dance that he/she got the sure NY pick. Happens every year.

The players dropping through to 9 will be very high risk despite the hype to the contrary.

And this, in a nutshell, is the paradox confronting the Knicks and others. The player currently at 4, *whoever it is*, could very well be there at 9 by the time all the teams ahead of the Knicks are done screwing each other and outwitting themselves. The higher you pick, the more painful the failure if the player turns into a dud.

Personally, I'm not in love with this draft class. TripleThreat, on another thread, made the assertion that drafting up to 2 (or presumably 4) would require swapping every pick for the next ten years and then a first-born. I don't buy it. But such a trade would be expensive. I'm not sure there's anyone worth that kind of one-sided deal. Mudiay and Beasley should be evidence enough.

I think Doncic would be a perfect NY fit just because of the Porzingis connection. Whether he turns out to actually become a rotation player isn't a given. I don't think I'd trade #9 (Parsons, et al) for him though. Unlike Memphis, Ny is in immediate need of young, talented players who aren't pressured to win a hell of a lot. I'd have no problem trading next year's #1 though. By next year, the Knicks should be full-up with youth needing minutes.

That kind of trade would clear the team of veterans and ensure minutes for Mudiay, Frankie, Doncic [or whoever]. If, for no other reason, this seems like a good reason to pursue that kind of trade.

More reasonably though, trading 9 to more back is probably safer and potentially more desirable.

fwk00
Posts: 22130
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5/27/2018  4:02 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

The Grizz, assuming they want to maximize their existing talent, don't necessarily need a high draft pick this year. First high draft picks are expensive and expensive to develop while trying to win games.

If they trade #4 for a future first, their ability to retool the team with a youth movement stays intact and they fill out the roster with more immediate reinforcements. This may actually be the year the Knicks have more opportunity to offer that kind of deal than anyone else


The lower down you draft, the higher the chance for failure. High draft picks are expensive, sure. But so are free agents. See THJ's contract. I don't see them dealing it for a pu pu platter of THJ and Lee. They can get a better deal if that's their intention. They're gonna want future firsts or Frank and a future first. That's in addition to 9#. Maybe that gets a deal done.

Where will they get that "better deal". Who's lining up to take on a dead-weight contract AND give up premium players? Knicks ain't going anywhere without Porzingis. Who else is in that boat?

BigDaddyG
Posts: 37419
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5/27/2018  4:52 PM
fwk00 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

The Grizz, assuming they want to maximize their existing talent, don't necessarily need a high draft pick this year. First high draft picks are expensive and expensive to develop while trying to win games.

If they trade #4 for a future first, their ability to retool the team with a youth movement stays intact and they fill out the roster with more immediate reinforcements. This may actually be the year the Knicks have more opportunity to offer that kind of deal than anyone else


The lower down you draft, the higher the chance for failure. High draft picks are expensive, sure. But so are free agents. See THJ's contract. I don't see them dealing it for a pu pu platter of THJ and Lee. They can get a better deal if that's their intention. They're gonna want future firsts or Frank and a future first. That's in addition to 9#. Maybe that gets a deal done.

Where will they get that "better deal". Who's lining up to take on a dead-weight contract AND give up premium players? Knicks ain't going anywhere without Porzingis. Who else is in that boat?


Better than $30 million in mediocrity? I understand the circumstance behind THJs season, but still...it was subpar. Harrison Barnes, a is better than 9, Lee and THJ. Fills a position of need and Dallas will sucks as much as us. Wiz are capped out and need to make a decision on Oubre. Four could draw Oubre or Porter. You could probably build a package containing Tobias Harris and work a deal with the Clippers. There are better deals to investigate that don't involve doubling down on mediocre shooting guards. Again, I understand they need players. But there is still a chance for them to draft a player who upside is way higher than Lee or Bosh. Gasol could opt out after this season anyway. And Lee/Hardway still doesn't even guarantee 8th seed.
Is that team better than the Nuggets?
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
NardDogNation
Posts: 27294
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5/27/2018  4:54 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

I think they'd be motivated to trade down because of that poor drafting history. Doing so would allow them to mitigate the risk of only having their pick by acquiring additional "assets" as well as another, lower lottery pick. So just in case they screw up and draft a bad player, they can always point to the fact that they replaced dead money, with productive players.

But let's be real: Mikal Bridges at 9 is as safe a pick as you can get in the draft. While he may have a low ceiling, he has a fairly high floor given his skillset and how critical it is in today's NBA. Just look at how badly guys like Chandler Parsons, Harrison Barnes, MKG, Otto Porter, Evan Turner and DeMarre Carroll got overpaid and you can begin to guage how valuable swingmen with length and skill are. Bridges will be a rotation player for the next decade and will always be in demand (i.e. tradeable). So in actuality, the Grizzlies are getting 3 players that can help them immediately at positions of need that are hard to find in the league. That should have legitimate value, which should demand a similarly valuable return.

Besides, at 4, I see nothing but a lot of high risk-high reward propositions for them and other teams in that range. Porter is the best of that group but with a bad back, would you stake your franchise's future squarely on him becoming a success? In their predicament, I'm not sure I would. But with us being a big market, free agency is always an option to acquire a star, which allows us to draft a bust every now-and-again.


But there is no guarantee Mikal will be there at 9. Miles would be a good fit, but I have to admit he's no sure thing...and I'm a fan. But what it comes down to is how much you lik the top of this draft. I'm not as high on Porter as you, but I think JJJ and Bagley would be really good fits for the Grizzlies. Assuming they re-sign Evans and keep Brooks, don't see a need for them to bring in Lee and Hardaway. Not at their prices anyway. Even if they wanted to get rid of Parsons that badly, they could do better. The pick and Parsons for Otto Porter? Harrison Barnes...well maybe not Barnes, but you get the picture.

Mikal's profile as a low-ceiling, high-floor prospect is exactly why he'll be available at 9. Most teams in the lottery are smaller market and have no other opportunity to acquire a star (albeit a rising star). So what we often see in every draft are big swings-and-a-miss on players with "star"-potential that don't have much of a track record like Emmanuel Mudiay, Noah Vonleh, Mario Hezonja, etc. That's why guys like Kyle Kuzma, Jimmy Butler, Donovan Mitchell, Terry Rozier, etc. are selected in the middle and late first round and routinely outperform the dudes with "potential" in the lottery.

So I definitely expect a rising senior like Bridges, that lacks flash,to be around at 9. The question is whether he'll actually fall further than that; not whether he'd rise, IMO.

As for the Grizzlies, wasn't Brooks and Evans 3-men for them last season? I'm not sure why Lee couldn't start at 2, with THJr backing him up while Brooks and Evans man the 3 spot with Bridges. I suppose they could consolidate that glut by acquiring an Otto Porter but I actually project Bridges to be better by year 2. After all, what has Porter really shown that makes him so appealing? With Wall out, the Wizards were barely an 8th seed in a weak East. That's not better than anything we can offer, IMO.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 37419
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

5/27/2018  5:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/27/2018  5:02 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

I think they'd be motivated to trade down because of that poor drafting history. Doing so would allow them to mitigate the risk of only having their pick by acquiring additional "assets" as well as another, lower lottery pick. So just in case they screw up and draft a bad player, they can always point to the fact that they replaced dead money, with productive players.

But let's be real: Mikal Bridges at 9 is as safe a pick as you can get in the draft. While he may have a low ceiling, he has a fairly high floor given his skillset and how critical it is in today's NBA. Just look at how badly guys like Chandler Parsons, Harrison Barnes, MKG, Otto Porter, Evan Turner and DeMarre Carroll got overpaid and you can begin to guage how valuable swingmen with length and skill are. Bridges will be a rotation player for the next decade and will always be in demand (i.e. tradeable). So in actuality, the Grizzlies are getting 3 players that can help them immediately at positions of need that are hard to find in the league. That should have legitimate value, which should demand a similarly valuable return.

Besides, at 4, I see nothing but a lot of high risk-high reward propositions for them and other teams in that range. Porter is the best of that group but with a bad back, would you stake your franchise's future squarely on him becoming a success? In their predicament, I'm not sure I would. But with us being a big market, free agency is always an option to acquire a star, which allows us to draft a bust every now-and-again.


But there is no guarantee Mikal will be there at 9. Miles would be a good fit, but I have to admit he's no sure thing...and I'm a fan. But what it comes down to is how much you lik the top of this draft. I'm not as high on Porter as you, but I think JJJ and Bagley would be really good fits for the Grizzlies. Assuming they re-sign Evans and keep Brooks, don't see a need for them to bring in Lee and Hardaway. Not at their prices anyway. Even if they wanted to get rid of Parsons that badly, they could do better. The pick and Parsons for Otto Porter? Harrison Barnes...well maybe not Barnes, but you get the picture.

Mikal's profile as a low-ceiling, high-floor prospect is exactly why he'll be available at 9. Most teams in the lottery are smaller market and have no other opportunity to acquire a star (albeit a rising star). So what we often see in every draft are big swings-and-a-miss on players with "star"-potential that don't have much of a track record like Emmanuel Mudiay, Noah Vonleh, Mario Hezonja, etc. That's why guys like Kyle Kuzma, Jimmy Butler, Donovan Mitchell, Terry Rozier, etc. are selected in the middle and late first round and routinely outperform the dudes with "potential" in the lottery.

So I definitely expect a rising senior like Bridges, that lacks flash,to be around at 9. The question is whether he'll actually fall further than that; not whether he'd rise, IMO.

As for the Grizzlies, wasn't Brooks and Evans 3-men for them last season? I'm not sure why Lee couldn't start at 2, with THJr backing him up while Brooks and Evans man the 3 spot with Bridges. I suppose they could consolidate that glut by acquiring an Otto Porter but I actually project Bridges to be better by year 2. After all, what has Porter really shown that makes him so appealing? With Wall out, the Wizards were barely an 8th seed in a weak East. That's not better than anything we can offer, IMO.


I disagree. I'd take Porter, a high percentage 3&D guy over Hardaway and Lee in a heartbeat. A good three point shooting season from THJ would still be considered subpar for Porter. That said, I think we could push Lee on to them. But they don't have to take on THJ to make that deal.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
NardDogNation
Posts: 27294
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

5/27/2018  5:04 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

The Grizz, assuming they want to maximize their existing talent, don't necessarily need a high draft pick this year. First high draft picks are expensive and expensive to develop while trying to win games.

If they trade #4 for a future first, their ability to retool the team with a youth movement stays intact and they fill out the roster with more immediate reinforcements. This may actually be the year the Knicks have more opportunity to offer that kind of deal than anyone else


The lower down you draft, the higher the chance for failure. High draft picks are expensive, sure. But so are free agents. See THJ's contract. I don't see them dealing it for a pu pu platter of THJ and Lee. They can get a better deal if that's their intention. They're gonna want future firsts or Frank and a future first. That's in addition to 9#. Maybe that gets a deal done.

I think we have an awful record of woefully underestimating our talent while overestimating the talent of other teams. I remember when everyone thought dumping "Flu-Tyson" for Jose Calderon, was a great idea since he was supposedly this great cancer. Then "Flu-Tyson" helped the Mavericks vascillate between the 1st and 3rd overall seeds before they got Rajon Rondo; while Jose Calderon went from darkhorse all-star by some on this board to rightfully being viewed as an awful contract and fit.

Hardaway Jr and Lee won't set the world on fire but outside of non-allstar swingmen, I don't see many options that are better for aspiring playoff teams. And we'd effectively be swapping that AND a pick 5 spots removed for $30 million in deadweight. I don't think that is anything to scoff at.

NardDogNation
Posts: 27294
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

5/27/2018  5:24 PM
fwk00 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

I think they'd be motivated to trade down because of that poor drafting history. Doing so would allow them to mitigate the risk of only having their pick by acquiring additional "assets" as well as another, lower lottery pick. So just in case they screw up and draft a bad player, they can always point to the fact that they replaced dead money, with productive players.

But let's be real: Mikal Bridges at 9 is as safe a pick as you can get in the draft. While he may have a low ceiling, he has a fairly high floor given his skillset and how critical it is in today's NBA. Just look at how badly guys like Chandler Parsons, Harrison Barnes, MKG, Otto Porter, Evan Turner and DeMarre Carroll got overpaid and you can begin to guage how valuable swingmen with length and skill are. Bridges will be a rotation player for the next decade and will always be in demand (i.e. tradeable). So in actuality, the Grizzlies are getting 3 players that can help them immediately at positions of need that are hard to find in the league. That should have legitimate value, which should demand a similarly valuable return.

Besides, at 4, I see nothing but a lot of high risk-high reward propositions for them and other teams in that range. Porter is the best of that group but with a bad back, would you stake your franchise's future squarely on him becoming a success? In their predicament, I'm not sure I would. But with us being a big market, free agency is always an option to acquire a star, which allows us to draft a bust every now-and-again.

Well, look, the history of the draft tells us that whoever is projected to fall to the Knicks is snatched up beforehand. This could simply be the by-product of the NY media and market-hype. Mykal will not last to #9. He's become a safe pick for a squeamish franchise picking ahead of us. The GM can do a hamster dance that he/she got the sure NY pick. Happens every year.

The players dropping through to 9 will be very high risk despite the hype to the contrary.

And this, in a nutshell, is the paradox confronting the Knicks and others. The player currently at 4, *whoever it is*, could very well be there at 9 by the time all the teams ahead of the Knicks are done screwing each other and outwitting themselves. The higher you pick, the more painful the failure if the player turns into a dud.

Personally, I'm not in love with this draft class. TripleThreat, on another thread, made the assertion that drafting up to 2 (or presumably 4) would require swapping every pick for the next ten years and then a first-born. I don't buy it. But such a trade would be expensive. I'm not sure there's anyone worth that kind of one-sided deal. Mudiay and Beasley should be evidence enough.

I think Doncic would be a perfect NY fit just because of the Porzingis connection. Whether he turns out to actually become a rotation player isn't a given. I don't think I'd trade #9 (Parsons, et al) for him though. Unlike Memphis, Ny is in immediate need of young, talented players who aren't pressured to win a hell of a lot. I'd have no problem trading next year's #1 though. By next year, the Knicks should be full-up with youth needing minutes.

That kind of trade would clear the team of veterans and ensure minutes for Mudiay, Frankie, Doncic [or whoever]. If, for no other reason, this seems like a good reason to pursue that kind of trade.

More reasonably though, trading 9 to more back is probably safer and potentially more desirable.

I'm not a fan of this draft either and think it will be very similar to the 2014 draft that had so much hype with so few results. The only two players that get me excited are Marvin Bagley Jr and Mohammed Bamba (as well as Ayton, to a lesser extent). And because they are big men, much of their success will ultimately be predicated on how well their guards get them the ball and on the system itself, which means that they won't change the fortunes of their franchise alone.

But outside of that group, I think Michael Porter Jr is the only one that has the ability to be a perennial all-star type if he's healthy. It seems that he's intent on leveraging his medical information to get him to a city/franchise he wants to go to but there is no way he falls past Chicago at 6. Should everything else hold, I think all the other high ceiling players go 1-8, with Collin Sexton being the only player left of that ilk. That means Bridges should still be available, no matter how the draft unfolds.

As for Doncic, I like him but I doubt his athleticism will be good enough to do what he does on a NBA stage. I think he'a basically relegated to being another Hedo Turkoglu, which wouldn't be sorth the effort of moving into the 4th seed.

fwk00
Posts: 22130
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/20/2015
Member: #6048

5/27/2018  5:31 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

The Grizz, assuming they want to maximize their existing talent, don't necessarily need a high draft pick this year. First high draft picks are expensive and expensive to develop while trying to win games.

If they trade #4 for a future first, their ability to retool the team with a youth movement stays intact and they fill out the roster with more immediate reinforcements. This may actually be the year the Knicks have more opportunity to offer that kind of deal than anyone else


The lower down you draft, the higher the chance for failure. High draft picks are expensive, sure. But so are free agents. See THJ's contract. I don't see them dealing it for a pu pu platter of THJ and Lee. They can get a better deal if that's their intention. They're gonna want future firsts or Frank and a future first. That's in addition to 9#. Maybe that gets a deal done.

Where will they get that "better deal". Who's lining up to take on a dead-weight contract AND give up premium players? Knicks ain't going anywhere without Porzingis. Who else is in that boat?


Better than $30 million in mediocrity? I understand the circumstance behind THJs season, but still...it was subpar. Harrison Barnes, a is better than 9, Lee and THJ. Fills a position of need and Dallas will sucks as much as us. Wiz are capped out and need to make a decision on Oubre. Four could draw Oubre or Porter. You could probably build a package containing Tobias Harris and work a deal with the Clippers. There are better deals to investigate that don't involve doubling down on mediocre shooting guards. Again, I understand they need players. But there is still a chance for them to draft a player who upside is way higher than Lee or Bosh. Gasol could opt out after this season anyway. And Lee/Hardway still doesn't even guarantee 8th seed.
Is that team better than the Nuggets?

Sorry, not a one of those teams have better trades as you're suggesting. Barnes for Parsons is a lateral fiscal move with dubious upside for Memphis. Its like trading #4 for nothing - one albatross salary for another.

The Clips tying up $$44M for Gallo AND Parsons - what's that team look like after a trade like that? Are they contending or hiring Hinke?

Washington doesn't have the goods Oubre's $2M and what truckload of players for Parsons $23M?

--------------------------------------------------

I never advocated THJ and Lee and #9 - that makes no sense to me either. If Memphis is looking to win, they don't want 4 and they have less use for 9. And they're not looking to trade for albatross contracts on that scale. Barnes isn't getting you a lottery pick let alone take a $23M salary off your books

In my trade scenario, Knicks get Parsons and #4 for Lee, Thomas, and a future first, top 3 protected (and one of: Baker, Dotson, or Burke) - Their bench is replentished, they have some extra cash to burn on a FA or two (all covered by Parsons existing salary) AND, if the playoff run is a bust they have two lottery picks NEXT year.

The Knicks will be **** out of luck cap space-wise but own #4 and #9 which may or may not be a good thing.

fwk00
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5/27/2018  5:45 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.


It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.


The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

I think they'd be motivated to trade down because of that poor drafting history. Doing so would allow them to mitigate the risk of only having their pick by acquiring additional "assets" as well as another, lower lottery pick. So just in case they screw up and draft a bad player, they can always point to the fact that they replaced dead money, with productive players.

But let's be real: Mikal Bridges at 9 is as safe a pick as you can get in the draft. While he may have a low ceiling, he has a fairly high floor given his skillset and how critical it is in today's NBA. Just look at how badly guys like Chandler Parsons, Harrison Barnes, MKG, Otto Porter, Evan Turner and DeMarre Carroll got overpaid and you can begin to guage how valuable swingmen with length and skill are. Bridges will be a rotation player for the next decade and will always be in demand (i.e. tradeable). So in actuality, the Grizzlies are getting 3 players that can help them immediately at positions of need that are hard to find in the league. That should have legitimate value, which should demand a similarly valuable return.

Besides, at 4, I see nothing but a lot of high risk-high reward propositions for them and other teams in that range. Porter is the best of that group but with a bad back, would you stake your franchise's future squarely on him becoming a success? In their predicament, I'm not sure I would. But with us being a big market, free agency is always an option to acquire a star, which allows us to draft a bust every now-and-again.

Well, look, the history of the draft tells us that whoever is projected to fall to the Knicks is snatched up beforehand. This could simply be the by-product of the NY media and market-hype. Mykal will not last to #9. He's become a safe pick for a squeamish franchise picking ahead of us. The GM can do a hamster dance that he/she got the sure NY pick. Happens every year.

The players dropping through to 9 will be very high risk despite the hype to the contrary.

And this, in a nutshell, is the paradox confronting the Knicks and others. The player currently at 4, *whoever it is*, could very well be there at 9 by the time all the teams ahead of the Knicks are done screwing each other and outwitting themselves. The higher you pick, the more painful the failure if the player turns into a dud.

Personally, I'm not in love with this draft class. TripleThreat, on another thread, made the assertion that drafting up to 2 (or presumably 4) would require swapping every pick for the next ten years and then a first-born. I don't buy it. But such a trade would be expensive. I'm not sure there's anyone worth that kind of one-sided deal. Mudiay and Beasley should be evidence enough.

I think Doncic would be a perfect NY fit just because of the Porzingis connection. Whether he turns out to actually become a rotation player isn't a given. I don't think I'd trade #9 (Parsons, et al) for him though. Unlike Memphis, Ny is in immediate need of young, talented players who aren't pressured to win a hell of a lot. I'd have no problem trading next year's #1 though. By next year, the Knicks should be full-up with youth needing minutes.

That kind of trade would clear the team of veterans and ensure minutes for Mudiay, Frankie, Doncic [or whoever]. If, for no other reason, this seems like a good reason to pursue that kind of trade.

More reasonably though, trading 9 to more back is probably safer and potentially more desirable.

I'm not a fan of this draft either and think it will be very similar to the 2014 draft that had so much hype with so few results. The only two players that get me excited are Marvin Bagley Jr and Mohammed Bamba (as well as Ayton, to a lesser extent). And because they are big men, much of their success will ultimately be predicated on how well their guards get them the ball and on the system itself, which means that they won't change the fortunes of their franchise alone.

But outside of that group, I think Michael Porter Jr is the only one that has the ability to be a perennial all-star type if he's healthy. It seems that he's intent on leveraging his medical information to get him to a city/franchise he wants to go to but there is no way he falls past Chicago at 6. Should everything else hold, I think all the other high ceiling players go 1-8, with Collin Sexton being the only player left of that ilk. That means Bridges should still be available, no matter how the draft unfolds.

As for Doncic, I like him but I doubt his athleticism will be good enough to do what he does on a NBA stage. I think he'a basically relegated to being another Hedo Turkoglu, which wouldn't be sorth the effort of moving into the 4th seed.

I don't see the Knicks having a chance at Ayton so I don't even talk about it. I like Bamba but he too may be out of reach these days. I'm luke-warm on Doncic and Bagley.

I am absolutely against the idea of drafting Porter. The risk with a bad back is just too great. I can see Atlanta drafting him late in the first because they have three picks but no, thanks. The Knicks cannot afford to F this up and this is the kind of draft that won't be easy. Mykal I'd be okay with at 9. The rest of the obvious candidates just don't excite me at all.

I like Rawle Alkins in the second round. Lunch pail baller.

I also like Chandler Hutchison a lot - could be the guy we need at SF.

fwk00
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5/28/2018  12:51 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
fwk00 wrote:Personally, I'm not in love with this draft class. TripleThreat, on another thread, made the assertion that drafting up to 2 (or presumably 4) would require swapping every pick for the next ten years and then a first-born. I don't buy it.


No, you dolt, the point I made in the other thread stands here as well.

A) The STEPIEN RULE means the Knicks cannot trade first round picks in consecutive drafts if they have no other first round picks acquired in said drafts. It means the Knicks right now can only trade their first round picks EVERY OTHER YEAR.

B) Draft pick protections CANNOT EXTEND INDEFINITELY. They must be conferred in some manner within three full seasons of the trade in question. Given the Stepien Rule and the volume needed to move up from 9 to 2, it means that the Knicks would need to trade picks that WOULD BE COMPLETELY UNPROTECTED. Even if they wanted to protect them, they simply could not and satisfy the complications of situations A and B as described. There are no workarounds here.

C) In order to entice a team to trade a TIER 1 Lottery pick, you need to sway then with volume and you cannot delay the potential upside of their side of the trade indefinitely, which means the Knicks would have to offer pick swap options for some of the years they cannot actually convey their pick. This is how the Celtics got the first pick in the draft, by a previous trade with a pick swap option.

You would be looking at 4-5 first round draft picks, that could not be given in consecutive years, forcing pick swaps in intervals to be implied. Times 2 ( since it is every other year), then you are looking at a 8-10 year timeline. Teams do not want to trade outside of the nominal CBA window ( this CBA is basically a five year pact, starting last year and extending to the first opt out in the 22-23 season.) Teams don't want to move picks this far down the road because no one can assess COST CERTAINTY and COST CONTROL in this manner.

On top of this, none of this passes "The Mirror Test" No one here in their right mind would move the 2nd overall for what kind of packages you and few others are talking about here. Not a chance. It's so glaring, none of you will even the address the issue, with infers very basic trade rape at work.

None of what you suggest has any precedent in NBA modern draft/trade history, because the NBA marketplace is not BUILT FOR VOLUME. A small number of players create a disproportionate amount of impact. They are typically found at the top of the draft lottery. Teams don't have the asset base to entice teams to move from this position. You say just because no one has done it doesn't mean it can't and won't be done. No, you dolt, no one has done it because IT MAKES NO SENSE TO DO IT. WHICH IS WHY NO ONE DOES IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. No team is going to wait 7-8-10 season to complete a trade that offers NO COST CERTAINTY AND NO COST CONTROL that they can predict.

You want a cherry on top? If there's one thing that analysts do agree on at a place like the Sloan Sports Conference in Houston each year, many of whom actually work in the NBA, it's that a from the ground up rebuild in the NBA would nominally take 5-7 years. So to asset deplete for 7-10 years for the 2nd overall, then taking a nominal rebuild timeline on top of that, it could destroy this team for 12-15 years. Even if a top of the lottery team would trade down ( which makes no sense at all), it would be asking the Knicks to bet possibly the next 12-15 years.

You "don't buy it"? So what? What I describe is how the actual NBA marketplace operates. No one cares how you and I feel about it.

Address The Stepien Rule
Address Cost Certainty
Address Cost Control
Address pick swapping
Address how teams trade within the actual current CBA window
Address The Mirror Test
Address long term asset depletion
Address that volume movement in personnel is not suited to the actual NBA marketplace
Address how this trade would not be defensible to the ownership, fanbase, local sports media and brands/corporations associated with the franchises who hold those top lottery picks right now

You don't have to like what I have to say. But what I am saying is how a real live and current competent NBA GM would consider in this same type of scenario. Argue with me, or actually recognize you can learn something here. It's your choice.

1.) Yes, the Stepien Rule exists. NBD I'm not advocating nor ever advocated attempting to trade either consecutive picks or two picks in a row bi-annually. That's what got us into trouble to begin with.

What I do think is open to consideration given KP being out, Frankie being 19, and a new coach whose shelf-life may be no longer than a year or two is keeping #9 and trading next year's first (top 3 protected, next year only) for *another* higher pick with Memphis being the obvious low-hanging fruit.

Its a fair assumption we will suck next year so Memphis could get back #4 when their future plans are clarified by one more run. If NY manages to truly suck AND be lucky to get 1-3. Memphis could hit a jackpot the year after with a #1-3 on down pick.

For Fizdale, he'd have a full youth corp that he could mold from day 1 to succeed or fail with rather than a slow drip build in a vicious media and fan market.

2.) My answer to #1 satisfies the criteria. If NY trades a pick protected only next year and it so happens NY lands one through three - THE PICK doesn't get traded. So Memphis gets their pick the following year - no rules broken. It's a roll-over. And for Memphis it may be timely as by then they're either a contender or considering a rebuild.

3.) Your assertion is speculative. Volume is one way to persuade, quality another. A bailout from heinous contractual obligation yet another. But yes, the higher you aim the more persuasive a trade must be.

I have never advocated trading for pick #2 - its cost prohibative unless we unload KP which I'm all in on.

The reason no one does the kind of long-term suicidal trade you suggest is because, well, its suicidal. Its also a strawman argument you use to make everyone else sound foolish.

Finally its not that I don't like your argument, its that I think its pedestrian and lazy thinking. Trades for commodities require real world negotiation and real world evaluation of assets. Knicks fans constantly degrade their own talent. And your solution is yet another example of raising the bar so high that the Knicks are bidding against themselves pointlessly.

TLover
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5/29/2018  1:58 PM
The key here is Doncic holding the cards as to where he wants to play. Doncic can either drop to Knicks or Memphis can pick him & strike a deal with us. Doncic’s threat of staying in Europe will definitely scare off teams. Memphis still has Gasol & Conely so either of the Bridges would work for them. Michael Porter’s injury might scare them off as well.

Hardaway, Mudiay, #9 for Parsons (who can play the 4 until KP is back) & Doncic

smackeddog
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5/29/2018  2:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/29/2018  3:25 PM
TLover wrote:The key here is Doncic holding the cards as to where he wants to play. Doncic can either drop to Knicks or Memphis can pick him & strike a deal with us. Doncic’s threat of staying in Europe will definitely scare off teams. Memphis still has Gasol & Conely so either of the Bridges would work for them. Michael Porter’s injury might scare them off as well.

Hardaway, Mudiay, #9 for Parsons (who can play the 4 until KP is back) & Doncic

Lee and Tim Jr for Parsons and the 4th pick- gives them 2 players who can start and fit with the window they have with Gasol and Conley. I’m not giving them our pick!

newyorker4ever
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5/29/2018  2:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/29/2018  2:30 PM
TLover wrote:The key here is Doncic holding the cards as to where he wants to play. Doncic can either drop to Knicks or Memphis can pick him & strike a deal with us. Doncic’s threat of staying in Europe will definitely scare off teams. Memphis still has Gasol & Conely so either of the Bridges would work for them. Michael Porter’s injury might scare them off as well.

Hardaway, Mudiay, #9 for Parsons (who can play the 4 until KP is back) & Doncic


http://theknickswall.com/jonathan-macri-luka-doncic-kobe-bryant-draft-day-maneuver-away/


Click the link if you wanna see the picture of a young L.Doncic wearing a #7 Knicks t-shirt.

KOBE BRYANT AND AGENT ARN TELLEM SLYLY JUGGLED TEAMS’ INTERESTS ON DRAFT DAY 22 YEARS AGO. EURO-PRODIGY LUKA DONCIC COULD MAKE A SIMILAR PLAY IN JUNE—AND THE KNICKS COULD VIE FOR HIS ATTENTION.

In retrospect, it’s a little preposterous that the story of Kobe Bryant falling to 13th in the 1996 Draft hasn’t already become the stuff of NBA lore.

It’s not that what happened is any kind of secret, but many younger fans who worship Bryant don’t even know how his ending up in purple and gold came to be. It’s odd, especially considering that what Arn Tellem pulled leading up to the draft—basically daring the Nets to pick his client by telling them he’d sooner play in Europe than in the swamps of New Jersey—had as profound an impact on the hierarchy of the league as any power play in NBA history.

It’s merely the most famous reminder that come draft night, the players (and their agents) have more control over the process than we realize. There have been other instances where players forced their way off of one team and onto another (nothing beats the look on Steve Francis’ face while donning a Vancouver Grizzlies hat. He was like a girl crowned prom queen alongside the smelly kid who sweats a lot). Still, none have had nearly the same implications as what Kobe Bryant pulled nearly 22 years ago.

That could all change in less than a month. The opening salvo was fired shortly after the lottery, when the best player in the world not currently wearing an NBA uniform took a page out of Kobe’s book and dropped a hint that he’s not going to be a passive participant in the draft process. When asked about his plans for next season, Luka Doncic—who, at 19, just become the youngest EuroLeague MVP and Final Four MVP in history—said that he was still undecided. Translation: “In case you were wondering, I hold some of the cards here.” (Yes, his agent Bill Duffy backtracked a bit, because that’s what agents do, but the point had been made.)

Shortly after these comments, ESPN’s Jonathan Givony reported that both the Kings and Hawks, perhaps not wanting to look like the suckers at the poker table, preferred drafting American front court players over Doncic. Could they be telling the truth as opposed to just saving face? Sure; they could also still change course. But that the news leaked right after Luka’s statements about possibly playing another year with Real Madrid is anything but a coincidence.

If nothing else, all of this should activate the radar of the two men running the front office of a particular team in the greater metropolitan area.

Dave W.D.
@davewdNBA
You know you’re getting old when you see a picture of ‘young’ Luka Doncic wearing a NY Knicks Melo jersey. #NBA #Euroleague

1:54 AM - May 21, 2018

Think about it: you’re the most famous teenage athlete in the world. You’re a decent looking kid. You just spent the last three years in the third-largest city in the European Union. You’ve already experienced the best in food, amenities, and as many of the trappings of life that are available to a 19-year-old playing for the Yankees of Spain. If you had the chance to come play in arguably the greatest city in the world alongside the NBA’s European rising star (who just happens to be a Real Madrid fan), wouldn’t you jump at the chance? Or would you rather spend the prime of your life in a city whose greatest attraction is either a) the home of a rock star who died 40 years ago or b) a homeless man’s Times Square.

If nothing else, Steve Mills and Scott Perry should be working every back channel imaginable to find out just how real the interest is.

There’s only one problem: even if Luka pulled a Kobe and threatened not to show up for anyone other than the Knicks, there’s no way one of the eight teams ahead of them in the lottery aren’t calling his bluff. Sure, the Suns will probably take Ayton because they’re the Suns and the Kings and Hawks have already made their intentions known, but Memphis has had their heart set on Doncic for some time now. Without a better option, they’d call his bluff in a heartbeat.

Enter the Knicks. If this were a normal situation, and Doncic didn’t have the ability to stay in Spain, any trade discussion would be a short one. The Grizzlies have made it abundantly clear that they want to get back to their roots of finishing as the seventh seed and giving some contender hell for six games before bowing out. It’s why news surfaced last week (before the Kings and Hawks news broke, granted) that they’d be open to trading their pick, likely for veteran help.

Even if the Knicks were willing to offer the ninth pick, Frank Ntilikina and other future draft goodies (not that this would necessarily be a good idea), Memphis would certainly be able to find an offer elsewhere that paid more immediate dividends.

Enter Bill Duffy, Doncic’s agent. Duffy also happens to represent Luka’s only real competition for the first overall pick, DeAndre Ayton, so it’s not like he’s going to screw over one client to help another. If Doncic fell to four, could Duffy put enough pressure on the Grizzlies to get them to consider a deal from the Knicks? It depends on how you look at it.

Around the league, most still see Tim Hardaway Jr.’s contract as a liability. You can put whatever spin you want on $17 million a year for a player who just shot 31 percent from deep, but season one in New York wasn’t exactly a rousing success. It also wasn’t a disaster. Timmy served as a first option (albeit an inefficient one) on many nights, and when he played second banana to KP, the Knicks were usually formidable.

(Would Steve Mills ok the trading of a player he famously brought in when the Knicks were under his watch for a few weeks last summer? If he did, it would represent yet another sign that this organization is stepping out of the dark ages and into a present where basketball decisions are made solely for basketball reasons.)

For Memphis, Hardaway Jr. would represent an immediate upgrade at shooting guard, which isn’t saying much. More importantly, as a third option after Marc Gasol and Mike Conley, Timmy would be playing far more in what should be his comfort zone. Still, Tim and the ninth pick for Luka only means you simply get hung up on as opposed to getting laughed off the phone. The key lies in who New York would take back in return.

Enter Chandler Parsons. To say the Parsons signing hasn’t gone as expected for Memphis is like saying that Carmelo Anthony was a slight disappointment in OKC (one day I’ll stop with the petty ‘Melo quips, and that day is not today). Mark Cuban’s old pool boy has 183 made field goals in 70 games over two injury-plagued seasons for the Grizzlies, which works out to just under a quarter of a million bucks per basket. To use an industry term, they got hosed.

Replacing Parsons with an above-average NBA player who makes less money while at the same time avoiding the Doncic headache is something the Grizzlies would have to think about. The Knicks would have to send some additional salary to make it work, but Tim, the ninth pick and, say, Emmanuel Mudiay’s expiring contract for Parsons and the fourth pick is a good starting point. The Grizzlies would be wise to ask for another future pick, and the deal would likely come down to haggling over protections, but it bears repeating: Memphis wouldn’t be operating from a position of strength. Neither were the Hornets 22 years ago.

When Charlotte sent the just-drafted Kobe Bryant to the Lakers in exchange for Vlade Divac, was it a fair deal? On it’s face, it made as much sense as THJ to Memphis, the Hornets wanted to stay relevant, had a need at center following Alonzo Mourning’s departure to Miami, and Divac was the textbook definition of serviceable in an era where you needed to big man to survive. In 2018, the same could be said of a scoring wing who can create offense on his own. The parallels are there.

(For those wondering, yes, there would still be a path to max space for New York in the summer of 2019 in the event of such a trade. It’s not easy—they’d have to move Courtney Lee for expiring salary before February, not sign any free agents this offseason, renounce the rights to basically all of their own free agents next July, waive Lance Thomas, waive and stretch Joakim Noah or Parsons, and possibly both, and hold off on KP’s extension—but it’s doable.)

Would Bill Duffy really be the man to broker such a transaction? As luck would have it, he’s also the agent for both Mike Conley and the aforementioned Noah. They’re the two highest-salaried players on both the Knicks and Grizzlies, showing that Duffy has had good experiences with each in the past. Perhaps a buyout for Noah could be worked out on the side to grease the skids, as could the Knicks throwing a guaranteed deal at another Duffy client, Isaiah Hicks, who spend last season on a two-way contract between New York and Westchester.

As Kobe Bryant showed the basketball world over two decades ago, anything is possible. Doncic has far more leverage than Bryant ever did, and he doesn’t need to fall as far in the draft to make this work.

These chances don’t come along often in the NBA. If it presents itself to the Knicks front office come draft night, they’d be wise to think long and hard. Talents like Doncic are rare. If he’s willing to give you an assist to make a deal happen, they’d be silly not to take it.

fwk00
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5/29/2018  6:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/29/2018  7:06 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
fwk00 wrote: I'm not advocating nor ever advocated attempting to trade either consecutive picks or two picks in a row bi-annually.

Its a fair assumption we will suck next year so Memphis could get back #4 when their future plans are clarified by one more run.

Your assertion is speculative. Volume is one way to persuade, quality another. A bailout from heinous contractual obligation yet another.

Finally its not that I don't like your argument, its that I think its pedestrian and lazy thinking. Trades for commodities require real world negotiation and real world evaluation of assets. Knicks fans constantly degrade their own talent.


If you are saying the Knicks should not trade consecutive picks every other year, then your trade scenario ends right there. Market value from moving 9 to 4 Or 9 to 2 is going to cost more than 1 additional first round pick.

"Assumption" offers ZERO COST CERTAINTY. The Grizzlies will not move a high lottery pick and a chance at a franchise player for a pick in the future that can be just as easily be 9th again as any other position. Even still, the issue remains, 1 additional first round pick would not be enough to get the 4th much less the 2nd overall.

The Knicks HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO TRADE. What else do the Knicks have to offer besides KP ( who is injured and his trade value is shot right now) or Frank N, who is not enough alone to persuade a team to give up a high lottery pick. The Knicks HAVE NOTHING ELSE THAT ANOTHER TEAM WANTS. You keep pushing players that the Knicks have tried to trade all year or several years, no one wants them at their cost, their contract length, their AAV.

That you think, saying it another thread, that the Knicks could positive trade assets for Hardaway Jr, Lee and Thomas shows how far off actual marketplace values you are pushing this all.

I say again and again - THE MIRROR TEST

If the situations were exactly reversed, would anyone here want the Knicks to trade the 4th overall to dump Parson's contract? To sign who exactly? And if all they would get back is the 9th and some undetermined pick or the 9th plus Hardaway Jr, how many people here would think that was a good long term decision for the Knicks.

You refuse to address The Mirror Test because you cannot justify this trade for the Knicks if they had the 4th overall pick.

You don't like my position because you don't understand how the NBA marketplace actually works, you are pushing a trade that is tantamount to open trade rape of the non Knicks franchise, you are pushing a deal scenario that fails The Mirror Test and you don't know what you are talking about.

You believe the deal you've laid out makes sense. And it does to you. Because you don't know what you are talking about.

There is nothing to degrade here.

No one wants Courtney Lee's age 33 and 34 seasons at his AAV and remaining contract length for a positive asset.

No one wants Hardaway Jr at his contract and AAV for a positive trade asset.

No one really wants Lance Thomas.

No one wants Noah.

No one wants Kanter, which is why he was available in the first place as a salary match to dump Melo.

The Knicks have a few things other teams want ( Zinger/Frank N) which they don't want to trade. Other than that, they have Dotson, who is only a throw in at this point. And they have future draft picks. That's it.

You don't know what you are talking about. You are digging your heels in because you don't like being told you are wrong. Digging in or not, nothing you say makes sense for the Grizzlies. At all.

Mirror Test this, then watch it collapse. You won't though, that would require a "real world evaluation of assets"

Look I don't doubt your sincerity but I do object to your hyperbole and selective factual assertions.

Let's do a thought experiment for a mirror test.

Would the Knicks trade Noah for two or three 2-way rotation players rather than burn cap space? I'm not talking about stars, I'm talking about lunch pail, leave it on the court ballers (yes, a Thomas, Baker, Lee, et al). I believe they would. he incoming players are just assets to evaluate, keep, or move along - ALL OF THEM far more pragmatic fiscally and going into the Free Agency season when you will be looking to sign exactly those kinds of players to seal your second and third units. In free agency they'll cost you double.

Now I realize no matter how much sense I make, you'll reject it - fine. We disagree.

Then the matter of a high pick - The draft rules have changed so you are right, if the knicks trade next year's first rounder there's no guarantee where it lands. But your argument that Memphis is somehow lined up to draft a future star is no more true at 4 than 9 and certainly no more true this year than next (a richer draft).

And I get it, you want to be Danny Ainge and insist on nothing but a train car of assets for a hamburger today but the Knicks better not be entertaining that kind of nonsense or I will be dead from old age before we see another playoff appearance.

I think your opinion of the value of our players is simply wrong. I agree with Hornaceks' assessment that the Knicks are very close to being competitive. The first 30 games or so of last season are more representative of how they will play than the injury ridden skid.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 37419
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

5/30/2018  12:22 PM
fwk00 wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
fwk00 wrote: I'm not advocating nor ever advocated attempting to trade either consecutive picks or two picks in a row bi-annually.

Its a fair assumption we will suck next year so Memphis could get back #4 when their future plans are clarified by one more run.

Your assertion is speculative. Volume is one way to persuade, quality another. A bailout from heinous contractual obligation yet another.

Finally its not that I don't like your argument, its that I think its pedestrian and lazy thinking. Trades for commodities require real world negotiation and real world evaluation of assets. Knicks fans constantly degrade their own talent.


If you are saying the Knicks should not trade consecutive picks every other year, then your trade scenario ends right there. Market value from moving 9 to 4 Or 9 to 2 is going to cost more than 1 additional first round pick.

"Assumption" offers ZERO COST CERTAINTY. The Grizzlies will not move a high lottery pick and a chance at a franchise player for a pick in the future that can be just as easily be 9th again as any other position. Even still, the issue remains, 1 additional first round pick would not be enough to get the 4th much less the 2nd overall.

The Knicks HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO TRADE. What else do the Knicks have to offer besides KP ( who is injured and his trade value is shot right now) or Frank N, who is not enough alone to persuade a team to give up a high lottery pick. The Knicks HAVE NOTHING ELSE THAT ANOTHER TEAM WANTS. You keep pushing players that the Knicks have tried to trade all year or several years, no one wants them at their cost, their contract length, their AAV.

That you think, saying it another thread, that the Knicks could positive trade assets for Hardaway Jr, Lee and Thomas shows how far off actual marketplace values you are pushing this all.

I say again and again - THE MIRROR TEST

If the situations were exactly reversed, would anyone here want the Knicks to trade the 4th overall to dump Parson's contract? To sign who exactly? And if all they would get back is the 9th and some undetermined pick or the 9th plus Hardaway Jr, how many people here would think that was a good long term decision for the Knicks.

You refuse to address The Mirror Test because you cannot justify this trade for the Knicks if they had the 4th overall pick.

You don't like my position because you don't understand how the NBA marketplace actually works, you are pushing a trade that is tantamount to open trade rape of the non Knicks franchise, you are pushing a deal scenario that fails The Mirror Test and you don't know what you are talking about.

You believe the deal you've laid out makes sense. And it does to you. Because you don't know what you are talking about.

There is nothing to degrade here.

No one wants Courtney Lee's age 33 and 34 seasons at his AAV and remaining contract length for a positive asset.

No one wants Hardaway Jr at his contract and AAV for a positive trade asset.

No one really wants Lance Thomas.

No one wants Noah.

No one wants Kanter, which is why he was available in the first place as a salary match to dump Melo.

The Knicks have a few things other teams want ( Zinger/Frank N) which they don't want to trade. Other than that, they have Dotson, who is only a throw in at this point. And they have future draft picks. That's it.

You don't know what you are talking about. You are digging your heels in because you don't like being told you are wrong. Digging in or not, nothing you say makes sense for the Grizzlies. At all.

Mirror Test this, then watch it collapse. You won't though, that would require a "real world evaluation of assets"

Look I don't doubt your sincerity but I do object to your hyperbole and selective factual assertions.

Let's do a thought experiment for a mirror test.

Would the Knicks trade Noah for two or three 2-way rotation players rather than burn cap space? I'm not talking about stars, I'm talking about lunch pail, leave it on the court ballers (yes, a Thomas, Baker, Lee, et al). I believe they would. he incoming players are just assets to evaluate, keep, or move along - ALL OF THEM far more pragmatic fiscally and going into the Free Agency season when you will be looking to sign exactly those kinds of players to seal your second and third units. In free agency they'll cost you double.

Now I realize no matter how much sense I make, you'll reject it - fine. We disagree.

Then the matter of a high pick - The draft rules have changed so you are right, if the knicks trade next year's first rounder there's no guarantee where it lands. But your argument that Memphis is somehow lined up to draft a future star is no more true at 4 than 9 and certainly no more true this year than next (a richer draft).

And I get it, you want to be Danny Ainge and insist on nothing but a train car of assets for a hamburger today but the Knicks better not be entertaining that kind of nonsense or I will be dead from old age before we see another playoff appearance.

I think your opinion of the value of our players is simply wrong. I agree with Hornaceks' assessment that the Knicks are very close to being competitive. The first 30 games or so of last season are more representative of how they will play than the injury ridden skid.

Next year's draft is being called weak according to most "experts." Most experts also agree that there's a pretty considerable drop off from #4 to #9. I actually have no problem with the Knicks swapping picks next year. But THJ, at $18 million plus, or Lee won't be enough to sway the Grizzlies away at their lone chance of picking up an all-star player. It's like when Vince Carter was upset that the Raptors didn't trade the Bosh pick for veteran help. The Grizzlies aren't close enough to think about foregoing their short-term future. They're going to ask for Frank at the very least if they consider a trade.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
fwk00
Posts: 22130
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/20/2015
Member: #6048

5/30/2018  10:03 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
fwk00 wrote: I'm not advocating nor ever advocated attempting to trade either consecutive picks or two picks in a row bi-annually.

Its a fair assumption we will suck next year so Memphis could get back #4 when their future plans are clarified by one more run.

Your assertion is speculative. Volume is one way to persuade, quality another. A bailout from heinous contractual obligation yet another.

Finally its not that I don't like your argument, its that I think its pedestrian and lazy thinking. Trades for commodities require real world negotiation and real world evaluation of assets. Knicks fans constantly degrade their own talent.


If you are saying the Knicks should not trade consecutive picks every other year, then your trade scenario ends right there. Market value from moving 9 to 4 Or 9 to 2 is going to cost more than 1 additional first round pick.

"Assumption" offers ZERO COST CERTAINTY. The Grizzlies will not move a high lottery pick and a chance at a franchise player for a pick in the future that can be just as easily be 9th again as any other position. Even still, the issue remains, 1 additional first round pick would not be enough to get the 4th much less the 2nd overall.

The Knicks HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO TRADE. What else do the Knicks have to offer besides KP ( who is injured and his trade value is shot right now) or Frank N, who is not enough alone to persuade a team to give up a high lottery pick. The Knicks HAVE NOTHING ELSE THAT ANOTHER TEAM WANTS. You keep pushing players that the Knicks have tried to trade all year or several years, no one wants them at their cost, their contract length, their AAV.

That you think, saying it another thread, that the Knicks could positive trade assets for Hardaway Jr, Lee and Thomas shows how far off actual marketplace values you are pushing this all.

I say again and again - THE MIRROR TEST

If the situations were exactly reversed, would anyone here want the Knicks to trade the 4th overall to dump Parson's contract? To sign who exactly? And if all they would get back is the 9th and some undetermined pick or the 9th plus Hardaway Jr, how many people here would think that was a good long term decision for the Knicks.

You refuse to address The Mirror Test because you cannot justify this trade for the Knicks if they had the 4th overall pick.

You don't like my position because you don't understand how the NBA marketplace actually works, you are pushing a trade that is tantamount to open trade rape of the non Knicks franchise, you are pushing a deal scenario that fails The Mirror Test and you don't know what you are talking about.

You believe the deal you've laid out makes sense. And it does to you. Because you don't know what you are talking about.

There is nothing to degrade here.

No one wants Courtney Lee's age 33 and 34 seasons at his AAV and remaining contract length for a positive asset.

No one wants Hardaway Jr at his contract and AAV for a positive trade asset.

No one really wants Lance Thomas.

No one wants Noah.

No one wants Kanter, which is why he was available in the first place as a salary match to dump Melo.

The Knicks have a few things other teams want ( Zinger/Frank N) which they don't want to trade. Other than that, they have Dotson, who is only a throw in at this point. And they have future draft picks. That's it.

You don't know what you are talking about. You are digging your heels in because you don't like being told you are wrong. Digging in or not, nothing you say makes sense for the Grizzlies. At all.

Mirror Test this, then watch it collapse. You won't though, that would require a "real world evaluation of assets"

Look I don't doubt your sincerity but I do object to your hyperbole and selective factual assertions.

Let's do a thought experiment for a mirror test.

Would the Knicks trade Noah for two or three 2-way rotation players rather than burn cap space? I'm not talking about stars, I'm talking about lunch pail, leave it on the court ballers (yes, a Thomas, Baker, Lee, et al). I believe they would. he incoming players are just assets to evaluate, keep, or move along - ALL OF THEM far more pragmatic fiscally and going into the Free Agency season when you will be looking to sign exactly those kinds of players to seal your second and third units. In free agency they'll cost you double.

Now I realize no matter how much sense I make, you'll reject it - fine. We disagree.

Then the matter of a high pick - The draft rules have changed so you are right, if the knicks trade next year's first rounder there's no guarantee where it lands. But your argument that Memphis is somehow lined up to draft a future star is no more true at 4 than 9 and certainly no more true this year than next (a richer draft).

And I get it, you want to be Danny Ainge and insist on nothing but a train car of assets for a hamburger today but the Knicks better not be entertaining that kind of nonsense or I will be dead from old age before we see another playoff appearance.

I think your opinion of the value of our players is simply wrong. I agree with Hornaceks' assessment that the Knicks are very close to being competitive. The first 30 games or so of last season are more representative of how they will play than the injury ridden skid.

Next year's draft is being called weak according to most "experts." Most experts also agree that there's a pretty considerable drop off from #4 to #9. I actually have no problem with the Knicks swapping picks next year. But THJ, at $18 million plus, or Lee won't be enough to sway the Grizzlies away at their lone chance of picking up an all-star player. It's like when Vince Carter was upset that the Raptors didn't trade the Bosh pick for veteran help. The Grizzlies aren't close enough to think about foregoing their short-term future. They're going to ask for Frank at the very least if they consider a trade.

I just realized that Memphis has no first-round pick next year - Boston owns it.

Yeah, there *can be* a drop-off in any draft but what we're witnessing is a continuous thrashing of his year's top ten. Ayton at one is the only constant. IMO, nine may have every chance of being a much higher pick.

I had not heard a word about next year's draft being weaker than this year's. This year is VERY young which, IMO, bodes poorly for many teams in contention taking that leap. The kids don't stand a chance.

GustavBahler
Posts: 41138
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

5/31/2018  10:39 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/31/2018  10:40 AM
Not a knock on THJ, but he's not enough to move to 4. Parsons has had his own disappearing acts. Would rather see how Hardaway does this season, who we draft.

THJ's injury, and dry spell put his value too low right now to get a good offer IMO. Frank might have a breakout season off the ball, or if a draft pick really impresses, that would be a better time to consider moving him.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 37419
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

5/31/2018  10:54 AM
GustavBahler wrote:Not a knock on THJ, but he's not enough to move to 4. Parsons has had his own disappearing acts. Would rather see how Hardaway does this season, who we draft.

THJ's injury, and dry spell put his value too low right now to get a good offer IMO. Frank might have a breakout season off the ball, or if a draft pick really impresses, that would be a better time to consider moving him.

Agree. We can make excuses, THJ was inefficient at the end of the day. I'm not killing him. At the same time, but his percieved value around the league is not high. Probably not fair, but what can you do?

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Take Parsons... see if you can get pick #4

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