CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Nalod wrote:Phil approached the job like a coach. can't do that as team president and defacto head of personal.
Good idea to hire him but it was badly executed. Some of you were smarter than the rest of us and knew it would fail.
MIlls will have his own story to write. Im happy with the decisions made thus far. Not everything works, but that's reality.
This takes time.

Phil was the only type of personality and history that Dolan would have been comfortable stepping away from the Knicks for. With that not working out it lead the way for a different approach. That wasn't going to happen without a guy like Phil happening first.

The continual evolution of Dolans era to become a quality bball org.

Good take.
when Mills was hired he was working for Magic Johnson enterprises but was also being wooed to be head of the NBA union.
DOlan had to "recruit" him. Since this was when the McKinsey consulting had gone thru MSG and likely told DOlan he was the cause of knicks woes, did Mills also have a similar promise from Dolan to stay away. With Phil everything was very public and it became part of the press conference. Knicks had Warkenetein and John Gabriel on payroll at the time so a GM at that moment was not critical.

Lets not forget, Grunwald was fired in October and Mills bought in. The roster was already much in place for the year. The seduction of Phil was from December to his signing in March of 2014.

Grunwald was fired just before training camp that year (end of September) and Mills was hired then. We do know that Woodson desperately wanted to keep another big on his roster because Amare and Kenyon were being restricted to play 10 mins every other game. He was forced to keep Chris Smith. A lot of things went down that year where management could have stepped in and improved on a team that had won 54 games the year before. Trading Shump, supporting Woodson with JR, Shump and Flu etc. or trading for Lowry all could have helped. Woodson was left to handle everything on his own and be the voice of the franchise with media.
It is also hard to forget Dolan saying that Grunwald was an old school gm and that Mills was more modern and had more cache with the younger players. Grunwald was very respected at the time and was cutting edge in his approach to finding talent throughout the world. A lot has happened since then and I am happy where the Knicks are now but Mills had a stint running the garden and later running the Knicks when he did not do a good job.

"short sample..." LOL

I suppose one can always paint Mills bad but lets understand that teams make few big changes once in camp and the months after. The Phil jax thing started three months later and was consummated another 90 days after that. Nothing was going to get done and remember Bargnani was coming on board, we did not know he was a lost cost so fast. Really, Mills came on board and instead of having time to get a GM and work thru Woodson, roster, etc he had Phil over shadowing and likey was instructed to not make any seismic changes. Just me guessing.
I don't care what Dolan says and neither should anyone. Yes, I liked Grunwald but he was not the man going forward was he? He was Isiah's assistant and some how stuck. Good dude and if empowered he might have succeeded but he lacked the charisma that Mills and especially Phil had.

What you have to understand is Im not a big Mills fans by any stretch but he is the man for now and since last season I like the direction the team is going in. On paper is an educated competent man and perhaps with his background might think a bit out of the box. Thinking outside the MSG Dolan rule is an improvement as well!!
IM more concerned with the decision making process than laying blame on people and thinking they will only make the same decisions over and over again and some how there must be some body who can do better BECUASE THEY HAVE DONE BETTER AND WOULD GOING FORWARD BECAUSE OF THAT REASON!. That is an open concept. Hire a guy that did well before? Simple. Before that can work that person must have assets and the ability to get them. PHil was hamstrung by this and thus Mills has more to worth with then phil. Hinkie did the ground work but Colangelo will get the glory. Its a process.
So blame Mills that "he could have done better". He also could have done worse. We all lived thru the Isiah era which in my book is the worst job by any executive to have spend proportionally more than any other team and yet netted so little!!!!
The Chris Smith thing? I don't know what in gods name that clusterphuch was all about but it reeks of improper payment to keep JR happy. Just my opinion.
Im rooting for mills to take this more patient conventional road to acquiring assets and thus creating opportunities should they arise. For all the talk about Mills hiring Blatt because they were buddies the bottom line it did not happen for what ever reason. Fiz was a great hire. Bud has a more rounded resume' but we are not replicating SAS here.
We don't have an easy track record to feel good about the past 16 years so we have to dig deep and find substance where we can, and fill in hope for the rest. Some fans will fill it with suspicion and fear. Fear breed ignorance. It speaks for itself.

Nalod wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish we would have waited... Casey would've been a GREAT hire

Bud has choices.

yes he does... where do you think he'll go?

I think Milwaukkee. I know Toronto is a better team right now but I mean who wouldn't want to coach the Greek Freak?

knicks1248 wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish we would have waited... Casey would've been a GREAT hire

he's been a proven disaster in the playoffs, he deserves to be fired.

I wouldn't mind him as an assistant

that you think this leads me to believe he'd be the perfect coach

he would allow stars (Lebron and Kyrie when he was there) to hog the ball and would surround them with defensive energy guys -- and he would win championships with those players; instead he was playing that system with mere allstars -- not superstars.

I hate to say it but this is my concern to some degree with Fiz. In the NBA you either need the absolute best players (which frankly and thankfully we may have one of but a couple years away) or you need a brilliant system matched to the coach and the team which must have talent. Rivers beat Lebron and company once and should have beat them twice but for bad reffing. Dallas beat them. Superstars are important but they can be beat with team ball and a great system (this is why GS is so nasty. they have the superstars and the system)

My concern is there are a lot of B+ coaches. Really good but more of a work harder, grind it out types, rather than brilliant. I don't see Fiz winning rings unless we can assemble a stacked roster

Chandler wrote:Irony is Casey would be a fantastic coach for the Cavs

he would allow stars (Lebron and Kyrie when he was there) to hog the ball and would surround them with defensive energy guys -- and he would win championships with those players; instead he was playing that system with mere allstars -- not superstars.

I hate to say it but this is my concern to some degree with Fiz. In the NBA you either need the absolute best players (which frankly and thankfully we may have one of but a couple years away) or you need a brilliant system matched to the coach and the team which must have talent. Rivers beat Lebron and company once and should have beat them twice but for bad reffing. Dallas beat them. Superstars are important but they can be beat with team ball and a great system (this is why GS is so nasty. they have the superstars and the system)

My concern is there are a lot of B+ coaches. Really good but more of a work harder, grind it out types, rather than brilliant. I don't see Fiz winning rings unless we can assemble a stacked roster

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Mills talked about accountability, but gave himself a pass for everything since he got here. Cmon Steve, walk it like you talk it.

Mills is only accountable for last season and the time he was President in 2013 when he came after Grunwald was fired (october 2016) and Phil was hired (March 2014). That he worked under Phil who had all final say and was accountable for all things knicks in his tenure.

Bull****. Straight up enabling bull****. Been here too long to get a pass for everything up to the last few years.

Mills was in charge of the operations and business areas... He wasnt involved in managing the Knicks until Phil came in

Mills played professional basketball in Ecuador for a year.[2] He worked for the National Basketball Association for sixteen years beginning in 1984 after having worked at Chemical Bank. Mills ascension while at the NBA was notable. He was an account executive in the corporate sponsorship department of NBA properties and program manager for NBA properties. He became vice-president of special events, after which he was senior vice-president of Basketball and Player Development,[3] Mills then became Chief operating officer and Sports Business President of Madison Square Garden in 2003.[4] His duties at MSG included supervising day-to-day operations, including finances, business strategies of the NBAs New York Knicks, NHL's New York Rangers and the WNBA's New York Liberty. All sports related activities were under his jurisdiction, including boxing, college basketball and track & field.

In 2009, Mills left MSG and joined Magic Johnson Enterprises where he helped create the Athletes & Entertainers Wealth Management Group, LLC (A&E).[5] of which he was a partner.[6]

On September 26, 2013, the New York Knicks announced Mills would be the executive vice president and general manager of the organization.[7]

On July 14, 2017, after announcing that Scott Perry would become the Knicks' newest general manager, the Knicks also announced Mills would be the new president of the organization, replacing the role that was previously held by Phil Jackson.

Am I wrong? Seems like Mills first experience with managing the Knicks was when Phil was president.

Think he was a Dolan mouth piece and has been ever since he was hired. With that said, got to give him credit for hiring Perry and Fizdale. Even if it was because Dolan is now telling him to stay out of decisions, or because he is finally able to make his own decisions.

Either way, nothing bad about the two most recent hires.

Here is my take on Mills and its neither positive or negative. He did well while working at with the NBA and was a riser. He did well managing business units (ahem, making money) for MSG and earned Dolan's trust. In 2003 he moved into basketball and almost immediately after assumed a GM type role under Phil. When things with Phil started to spiral one would assume Mills went to Dolan with a basic plan saying I can fix this. Let me hire a real NBA GM, a real NBA coach, lets us draft and build up a sustainable winner offering no easy fixes but one with a reasonable 3-5 year time line. Mills surely promised a drama free environment run by NBA pros and that seems to be the path.

I dont look at this crew with rose colored glasses as some suggest. What do you see happening at MSG? Mudiay, Kanter, Ntilikina, Hardaway, Baker, Dotson, Kornet, Hicks, Burke, Troy Williams, Scott Perry, Fizdale.... I mean what do people see?

True. Agree about the plan. But dont forget that he is still just Dolan's way of keeping tabs on everyone. But again, cant argue with Fiz or Perry. So maybe Dolan has truly learned to stay out of things and relayed it to his watch dog. Problem is, as we know, Dolan is always just moments away from doing something stupid and Mills wont be able to stop him.

As for Knicks and what people see, Unfortunately, think we still have a long long way to go before we are respectable. Grant it, only way to rebuild is through developing young talent and adding good FA pick ups ,when they are ready to compete for something. Unfortunately, we are still at the building young talent phase and I dont feel very confident with our ability to do that. Sure its too early to tell for sure but we dont have a good history of picking AND developing young pieces. (Hopefully Perry and Fiz can change that) Also not confident that we have what we need in terms of young building blocks. I just hope we get luckier this draft (with a break out rookie), KP does not have any lingering issues from injury and that I am wrong about Frank. Its just tough going into yet another season of rebuild and another probable tank year.

Really curious to see what happens with KO and Kanter and if we stay pat in FA. Think Kanter walks for longer deal. KO gets resigned and hoping we dont do another Timmy type signing

I actually think the Knicks have been building a solid development program. It started under Phil with the G League team. Since Perry has come on board with his crew they’ve been working on a new development program with Craig Robinson. Now they add Fiz who is a legit player development coach. Every indication is that this team will be much more equipped to develop our young talent and establish a good culture. F that old negative and fearful attitude. This is looking like a group of men that have figured out what they want to do with this franchise. ☀️😎

I, too get more than a little tired of the negative and positive hyperbole that gets thrown around - NY fans do love to bloviate at the extremes.

Yes, this is and will remain the Knicks generation that Phil kick-started and has inspired the FO to nurture. As I watch the playoffs, Phil's greatest mistake may have been in trading JR. JR is twice the player Melo ever was here, enigmatic and perplexing as that greatness was. I miss JR like I don't miss Melo.

But Phil's message did penetrate the psyche and philosophy of this team in a way few give him credit for.

OTOH, Mills gets bashed just because NY moves from one innocent whipping person to another in a nano-second. I actually like Mills and think he's as fine a FO exec as NY deserves. He' smart, discreet, and he's not a micro-manager - all good, high-under-rated attributes.

Perry for some unfathomable reason is being marketed as the second-coming. He's done nothing to earn the accolades or even blind faith that he is an improvement on the Knicks existing brain-trust. Perry is surrounded by good people and the improvements Mills, Phil, and co made over the past few years are bearing fruit. If he succeeds he will succeed standing on the shoulders of those people and policies and not because he's basketball magic.

The coaching fork in the road was telling. The choice between Bud and Fizz was not about basketball competence but about hyperbole. Fizz is a media-darling. He will bullsh@t with the very best of them - quotable, unctious, and probably disingenuous based on prior history.

Fizz is also in line to benefit from Phil's player curation and Hornacek's player development. I wish him that not because I think he will be a great coach but because I'm tired of cheering for a losing team.

IMO, Budenholzer was the superior choice. IMO, Hornacek was a superior choice. But we are where we are.

And yes, the FO is now nearly all black. If identity politics is driving the FO and player preferences, we are once again in a stupid cycle that will not end well.

Nalod wrote:What these guys have done in the past or not done is not indicative of the future.
Masai in Toronto has a big time hire for them and he has been great, but that Lebron guy ****blocks them year after year.
That does not mean him or casey failed. He was COY and did a great job. I get why they fired him, but lets not think Casey can just move somewhere and the magic just happens.
Just like Mills past will keep repeating. Or Perry's tenure will be like it was in orlando. THere are so many variables that it boggles my brain to think one guys past transposes into another teams future.
Casey is a great coach but he took that team as far as it can and either you break it up or move to another coach.
We don't know other than it was reported Bud wanted NY but we don't know his conditions and if the openings of other places might have turned his attention elsewhere.
Perry had a nice player development gig in Detroit on a team that went to two finals and won one. He was part of a championship team. In Orlando he was assistant to a guy that got fired and naturally so did his deputy (perry).
Few if any are heralding Mills and Perry except they are doing things conventionally in NY which we have not seen in many years.
Does that mean we have success? Nope. But we have seen starphuch hire one after the other and for a change we are going slow, thru the draft, and with patience.
The past did not include that. Reason to be optimistic.

djsunyc wrote:

Nalod wrote:Casey has not deserved to be fired.
He might have taken this team as far as it can go. Regular season is not a proxy for post season play.
Masai has to look at his team and figure out why the stagnation? The reality is DeRozen and Lowrey are not great players. Lowrey is undersized and DeRozen does not know how to win if he is not dropping buckets. They are paid like big time players but they are not. Still very very good ones!
Do they know what they are missing? Of course. so does Casey. That does not mean it gets executed. Its easy for Knicks1248 to judge but the fact is we don't know shyt.
You don't fire a coach unless you think you can exact improvement. You fire a coach who has been delinquent in their duties.
If Ujuri thinks they can go further with another coach then you don't fire Casey, you replace him. Yeah, there is a difference.

it's very easy to judge a coach/player/exec based on things we see on espn or the few games on national tv they have. we all do it.

but here's my perspective from watching him for 7 years every game.

really good coach but deserved to be let go.

raptors built a new culture with ujiri and casey played a big role. he got players to play hard. got his two big names to buy in. developed a ton of young talent and is a true professional. team played hard every night. everyone basically got along and he helped build a model franchise.

with that said, there is a difference between a marathon and a race. he was good for the marathon of the regular season but was not good for the race.

he had an offense that was bascially iso-ball for his first 6 seasons with lowry + dd. regular season consistently upper tier in offfensive rating but the playoffs, we were near the bottom. it was ujiri that had to step in last summer and tell him to change the offense. so casey was not proactive in that regard and had to be told what to do.

but the big thing is that the team was unprepared in the playoffs and it's indicative to losing every single game 1 (almost every one at home) in each playoff series. he is a reactive coach and not one to force the issue. if a team went small, he would quickly pull jonas and match up with the other team despite being the higher seed and the better team. his calling card is defense but in 10 consecutive playoff games, he was unable to come up with any sort of defensive game plan to slow down cleveland. indy pushed them to 7. celtics won game 1. and we got swept. inexcusable.

another knock was that he would hold other players accountable for defense but never derozan...despite every single stat and advanced stat saying derozan is a net negative and a major hit to team defense. he may sit him here and there but only b/c derozan was awful offensively - not for his defense.

you can not be the higher seed and get swept out of the playoffs 3 times in 5 years. the last 3 years, we beat teams we should have in the playoffs but it was tougher than it should have been. that is all due to coaching. players never felt the confidence that the coach would come up with a plan to win and it reflected in their performance. (the opposite is true of brad stevens). btw, casey drew up the inbounds play vs the nets in game 7's final possession for the opposite side of the court. with no timeouts, we had to scramble before the lowry shot that was blocked at the buzzer.

now it's time to see what another voice can do. there's still time for roster moves but we now need someone to give the players confidence to step up to a challenge and throw the first punch (proactive) as opposed to taking the first punch (reactive). team is still very talented and should be a better playoff performer.

he just didn't have the tactician chops needed for post season basketball despite having a higher functioning team. he took as as far as he could. this isn't a firing in the traditional sense. he got 7 years - 5 playoffs. he got way more time than many other organizations would be willing to give. ujiri was choked up in the presser. this has more to do with getting a better tactition and voice for post season play. you can't be happy with how we were willing to be punked by lebron. ujiri signed kyle + ibaka to 3 years (1 down 2 to go). derozan ends around the same time. first year - casey didn't succeed so he's gone. next year if kyle + dd sh t the bed again, he can tell management it's the players and he can move them relatively easily as expirings. then he can plan for the next 4-5 years.

to relate it to knicks speak - knicks had stu jackson and john macleoud from 88-91. core was jackson + oak + ewing in the 91 team that got swept quite easily in the first round to jordan. then pat riley comes in and changes EVERYTHING. he instilled the confidence and sentiment that the knicks should not fear jordan and should go after him. that's what casey did not provide.

he would be a great coach for a younger team though. one that's more invested in development, culture change and developing professionalism. he would've been a good choice for the knicks. i can see him in orlando as weltman was the assistant gm to ujiri and is now running the ship there - and they are going young as well.

That was my core, you replace him to further the team. I agree.
Casey didn't fail, he took them as far as it could go.
Kerr took Warriors, Carlisle took Dallas, Larry completed Detroit...........It happens.
I get it.