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KawhiMania
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Nalod
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4/24/2018  7:45 AM
Knicks will get dragged into and they should put in a bid.
Frank should not be considered untouchable. My problem is when we use picks.
Say Leonard gets injured and we are lottery bound the whole trade goes like another knick nightmare and we reward the spurs.
We have a history of making trades and when they don’t work out the compensation is suppose to DECREASE not increase. The picks must be protected.
I feel like I have watched frank for hours and hours and am a fan. All this time while Leonard is getting bad press.
I was never a fan of Melo in Denver and in NY I respected his game and he was a knick, but never vested in him like we do with our rookies. Kind of feel the same way about Leonard, I respect his game and his “humbled robotic approach”. With the events that have transpired I am suspect of his sincerity.
If we do this we have to get it right!!!
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knickstorrents
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4/24/2018  9:12 AM
Please no to the Starphuch.
Rose is not the answer.
martin
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4/24/2018  10:59 AM
Nalod wrote:Knicks will get dragged into and they should put in a bid.
Frank should not be considered untouchable. My problem is when we use picks.
Say Leonard gets injured and we are lottery bound the whole trade goes like another knick nightmare and we reward the spurs.
We have a history of making trades and when they don’t work out the compensation is suppose to DECREASE not increase. The picks must be protected.
I feel like I have watched frank for hours and hours and am a fan. All this time while Leonard is getting bad press.
I was never a fan of Melo in Denver and in NY I respected his game and he was a knick, but never vested in him like we do with our rookies. Kind of feel the same way about Leonard, I respect his game and his “humbled robotic approach”. With the events that have transpired I am suspect of his sincerity.
If we do this we have to get it right!!!

My not very well informed understanding is that Kawhi both wants his money and a team that can compete.

If the Knicks have back-channel to him, they best remind him of the Melo/Denver/Knicks scenario.

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Vmart
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Member: #247
USA
4/24/2018  11:04 AM
Nalod wrote:Knicks will get dragged into and they should put in a bid.
Frank should not be considered untouchable. My problem is when we use picks.
Say Leonard gets injured and we are lottery bound the whole trade goes like another knick nightmare and we reward the spurs.
We have a history of making trades and when they don’t work out the compensation is suppose to DECREASE not increase. The picks must be protected.
I feel like I have watched frank for hours and hours and am a fan. All this time while Leonard is getting bad press.
I was never a fan of Melo in Denver and in NY I respected his game and he was a knick, but never vested in him like we do with our rookies. Kind of feel the same way about Leonard, I respect his game and his “humbled robotic approach”. With the events that have transpired I am suspect of his sincerity.
If we do this we have to get it right!!!

Man you contradict yourself way to much. Kawhi is an awesome talent but he is everything you don’t want at the same time.

Marv
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4/24/2018  11:23 AM
wow i really don't want kawhi with everything that's gone on with him and everything that we're allegedly doing differently now. really bad mojo in pursuing something like this.
Knixkik
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4/24/2018  11:53 AM
We should just wait until free agency to add a player in 2019. Kawhi, Klay, Walker, Middleton, and Harris are all options.
franco12
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4/24/2018  12:22 PM
there is no reason to add him to our roster at this point. We are too far away- all he does is move us back in the lottery.

Still have a deep talent hole to fill in.

smackeddog
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4/24/2018  12:33 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/24/2018  12:33 PM
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:Knicks will get dragged into and they should put in a bid.
Frank should not be considered untouchable. My problem is when we use picks.
Say Leonard gets injured and we are lottery bound the whole trade goes like another knick nightmare and we reward the spurs.
We have a history of making trades and when they don’t work out the compensation is suppose to DECREASE not increase. The picks must be protected.
I feel like I have watched frank for hours and hours and am a fan. All this time while Leonard is getting bad press.
I was never a fan of Melo in Denver and in NY I respected his game and he was a knick, but never vested in him like we do with our rookies. Kind of feel the same way about Leonard, I respect his game and his “humbled robotic approach”. With the events that have transpired I am suspect of his sincerity.
If we do this we have to get it right!!!

My not very well informed understanding is that Kawhi both wants his money and a team that can compete.

If the Knicks have back-channel to him, they best remind him of the Melo/Denver/Knicks scenario.

I've read a few things that said he wants a big market, and that he didn't like that no big name FAs wanted to sign with the Spurs. Haven't read anything about winning being the deciding factor for him (otherwise he could have just stayed with the Spurs).

I suspect we'll offer Frank and this years pick (plus salary- Kanter would be perfect if he opted in). I wouldn't do it as he is due one of those absolute monster contracts in a year or two, as is KP, so we'd be capped out and essentially only have him and KP (plus next years pick)- don't see how you improve that team.

smackeddog
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4/24/2018  12:34 PM
Knixkik wrote:We should just wait until free agency to add a player in 2019. Kawhi, Klay, Walker, Middleton, and Harris are all options.

Yep, its not even about free agency for me- we add this years pick to Frank, plus next years pick, then a returning KP, and suddenly you have some nice building blocks.

fishmike
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4/24/2018  12:43 PM
smackeddog wrote:
Knixkik wrote:We should just wait until free agency to add a player in 2019. Kawhi, Klay, Walker, Middleton, and Harris are all options.

Yep, its not even about free agency for me- we add this years pick to Frank, plus next years pick, then a returning KP, and suddenly you have some nice building blocks.


and KP aside CHEAP. We are on a good course
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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4/24/2018  1:11 PM
smackeddog wrote:
martin wrote:
Nalod wrote:Knicks will get dragged into and they should put in a bid.
Frank should not be considered untouchable. My problem is when we use picks.
Say Leonard gets injured and we are lottery bound the whole trade goes like another knick nightmare and we reward the spurs.
We have a history of making trades and when they don’t work out the compensation is suppose to DECREASE not increase. The picks must be protected.
I feel like I have watched frank for hours and hours and am a fan. All this time while Leonard is getting bad press.
I was never a fan of Melo in Denver and in NY I respected his game and he was a knick, but never vested in him like we do with our rookies. Kind of feel the same way about Leonard, I respect his game and his “humbled robotic approach”. With the events that have transpired I am suspect of his sincerity.
If we do this we have to get it right!!!

My not very well informed understanding is that Kawhi both wants his money and a team that can compete.

If the Knicks have back-channel to him, they best remind him of the Melo/Denver/Knicks scenario.

I've read a few things that said he wants a big market, and that he didn't like that no big name FAs wanted to sign with the Spurs. Haven't read anything about winning being the deciding factor for him (otherwise he could have just stayed with the Spurs).

I suspect we'll offer Frank and this years pick (plus salary- Kanter would be perfect if he opted in). I wouldn't do it as he is due one of those absolute monster contracts in a year or two, as is KP, so we'd be capped out and essentially only have him and KP (plus next years pick)- don't see how you improve that team.

I think the reasoning is - from Kawhi's standpoint - even if he does opt in, do the Spurs have enough to compete in the West? And, at his salary of $30M per, they would not (especially considering the retirements and low draft picks going forward and cap constraints).

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Mike1989
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4/24/2018  1:41 PM
smackeddog wrote:I've read a few things that said he wants a big market, and that he didn't like that no big name FAs wanted to sign with the Spurs. Haven't read anything about winning being the deciding factor for him (otherwise he could have just stayed with the Spurs).

I suspect we'll offer Frank and this years pick (plus salary- Kanter would be perfect if he opted in). I wouldn't do it as he is due one of those absolute monster contracts in a year or two, as is KP, so we'd be capped out and essentially only have him and KP (plus next years pick)- don't see how you improve that team.

True it does put us in a potentially tough cap situation, but we would have two stars to build around. This is a star driven league and if you don't have them you don't tend to win titles. Look at the recent champions: Golden State (Durant, Curry, Green, Thompson), Cleveland Cavaliers (LeBron, Kyrie, Love), San Antonio Spurs (Duncan, Kawhi, Parker), Miami Heat (LeBron, Bosh, Wade), LA Lakers (Bryant and Gasol), Celtics (Pierce, Garnett, Allen, Rondo). So recent history does show that the teams that win and dominate do so with multiple star players and unless we manage to find one in this year's draft and next year's (working on the basis next year we are terrible and get a high pick), then the team will likely mirror is the Dallas Mavericks that were built around Dirk Nowitzki. Sure they had their year in 2011 and made a finals appearance in 2006, but outside of that they had a number of first second and semi final exits. Perhaps our fans and ownership would be happy to become a version of that with KP, but I think we do need to be ambitious and aim high when it comes to trying to support KP with the best possible players.

The other thing to consider here is that it depends on what Kawhi and KP truly want. Are they going to be selfish and sign for the maximum amount of money that we could offer? Or would they be willing to take less than market value in order to free up space to create the strongest possible supporting cast (i.e. like the Warriors quartet, or the Heat's big three)?

At the end of the day being in a big market also creates a lot of opportunities to earn money off the court to make up for any potential hometown discount deals. At this point we don't truly know what motivates these players because they might want the biggest pay day, or they might want a big pay day but one that leaves the team more wiggle room.

Also, other teams have managed to put together supporting casts without having much room to work with. The Warriors managed to add Kevin Durant to their trio. They have managed to keep hold of Shaun Livingstone ($7.5m) and Andre Iguodala ($15m), and while being able to add other players like Swaggy P ($5m) to their bench unit. Ageing veterans have signed for them like David West and play a key role from the bench. They have even been able to bring in some drafted talent to come off the bench as well to help keep some costs down. So there are ways in which to build a competitive roster even with bloated contracts on the books. Plus if we retain our draft picks from next year we can add young talent to supplement the roster, and continue to utilize our ability to find and redeem players (i.e Burke, Williams etc). So it can be done.

wargames
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4/24/2018  2:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/24/2018  2:10 PM
Lets wait and see if the Spurs even move him. They are a older team and there is a certain wisdom is being low in the cap while you rebuild (The Process). You're not getting equivalent star value for Kawhi, and even Kawhi couldn't keep that older roster in the playoffs much longer. Also trading him for picks isn't ideal because even on a decent roster with him there you're getting late 20 picks.

They might just let him walk? Hit bottom and put faith in their coaching/scouting that won them championships before.

The algorithm gives and the algorithm takes away
Mike1989
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4/24/2018  3:58 PM
wargames wrote:Lets wait and see if the Spurs even move him. They are a older team and there is a certain wisdom is being low in the cap while you rebuild (The Process). You're not getting equivalent star value for Kawhi, and even Kawhi couldn't keep that older roster in the playoffs much longer. Also trading him for picks isn't ideal because even on a decent roster with him there you're getting late 20 picks.

They might just let him walk? Hit bottom and put faith in their coaching/scouting that won them championships before.

The Spurs have managed to get this far this season without Kawhi Leonard. Now I agree that they are unlikely to be a title contender without him, and it is possible they might miss the play offs next year without him, but I suspect the Spurs would still be competitive without Kawhi. I think they have shown with their line ups this season that they can adapt to the loss of their star player and change their approach depending on their opponent (for instance in the last game they started Patty Mills, Dejounte Murray, Danny Green, Kyle Anderson and LaMarcus Aldridge). Factor in a potential deal for Kawhi Leonard and they could still end up with a talented line up.

If they send Kawhi east who could they get in return?

- Miami are typically aggressive but they lack first round picks to do a deal. The Spurs would also have to accept a deal possibly involving Dragic and Winslow or Adebayo plus a future first round pick, or they could go for Whiteside and a young player plus a future first round pick.

- Milwaukee could decide to swing for the fences to try and keep Giannis happy. Imagine if they decide to throw Khris Middleton and Tony Snell to the Spurs, that gives them a scorer and a really good 3-and-D player to replace a potentially exiting Rudy Gay and Danny Green (if they both opt out and leave). The Bucks also own their first round pick which could be added into a deal..

- Boston are likely to want in on the act. Putting together a deal could revolve around them sending Al Horford with the Spurs sending Kawhi and Rudy Gay to balance the deal. Alternatively they could look at a deal involving Jayson Tatum ($6.7m), Marcus Morris ($5.3m), Jaylen Brown ($5.1m) and Terry Rozier ($3m) as a package deal. That sees the Celtics get three young ascending players and a proven veteran, and with the contracts the Spurs will have coming off the books they could accept a 4 for 1 deal. This is before consider the draft picks the Celtics own.

- Philly would be possibility. Imagine if they pair Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid with Kawhi Leonard. Good luck eastern teams in competing with that. Philly could offer a young player like Markelle Fultz ($8.3m) along with a veteran like Covington ($10.4m) and a makeweight like TJ mcConnell ($1.6m team option). Philly also have an abundance of draft picks including the 10th and 26th picks in the first round and four second round picks. Plus they have future first round pick rights to sell as well.

These are all appealing deals for the Spurs to consider if Kawhi truly wants out of San Antonio. Reportedly Pop doesn't want to send him in their conference so that means sending him out east. We've got teams out here with the assets to make a deal worthwhile. They could end up with some decent young ascending talent. So there is no point in them holding onto him and letting him walk for nothing because they aren't a title contender with Kawhi. He could even play hard ball again next year and sit for most of the year before opting out and leaving for nothing. So it makes sense for the Spurs to get something in return for him rather than nothing just like the Pacers did when they sold Paul George.

Jmpasq
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4/24/2018  8:14 PM
Marv wrote:wow i really don't want kawhi with everything that's gone on with him and everything that we're allegedly doing differently now. really bad mojo in pursuing something like this.

Yeah he scares me and the Spurs are going to want a slew of assets, im not doing it.
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GustavBahler
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4/24/2018  10:08 PM
Nothing short of KP will bring him to NY, so pass. Id do it for Kanter, and the 9th pick, if that was enough. Doubt it is.
meloshouldgo
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4/25/2018  7:50 AM
knickstorrents wrote:Please no to the Starphuch.

What he said, He was being polite

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
mythfaze
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4/25/2018  10:51 AM
With all the cryptic reports on what's been going on, I've been wavering on how I feel about the whole Kawhi situation...

But the dealbreaker for me is the fact he didn't join the team in the playoffs and cheer them on from the sidelines.

What possible rationale is there for that? He has all summer to continue his rehab in NY... he obviously isn't under any travel restrictions...

As talented as he is, something just doesn't feel right about giving up everything we'd have to give up to end up with yet another player with suspect mental fortitude.

Nalod
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4/25/2018  11:06 AM
mythfaze wrote:With all the cryptic reports on what's been going on, I've been wavering on how I feel about the whole Kawhi situation...

But the dealbreaker for me is the fact he didn't join the team in the playoffs and cheer them on from the sidelines.

What possible rationale is there for that? He has all summer to continue his rehab in NY... he obviously isn't under any travel restrictions...

As talented as he is, something just doesn't feel right about giving up everything we'd have to give up to end up with yet another player with suspect mental fortitude.

Its all very strange and hushed. We are not used to restrained exiles.
Its hard to follow a guy like Frank and his story, watch the kid all year long. He is likable, works hard, and is our rookie.
Felt this way about our kids before the Melo deal. Watched Reezy and hated when we traded him too.
To be fair, despite Melo's reputation before he came here, he was a bonafide talent and over time I rooted for him and his success as it was aligned with my team and he a member. I suppose I'd get over a trade that included Frank and hope like hell it all works out great for us.
Maybe being a fan I get attached to our rookies (so few over the last 20 years!).
My opinion is such a move would involve more than I'd want to give up.
I want to know more about the negative side to Kawhi, his uncle and the underlying factors. I suppose that won't happen unless Spurs throw him under the bus post any trade.

WaltLongmire
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4/25/2018  1:26 PM
He is one of my favorite players. Turns 27 soon, and unless I'm missing something, he has a player option after next season, and he's on a contract that doesn't pay him what he deserves. Would he stay in NY?

Is he reaching a point in his career where he will become injury prone? After this year, his 7 year average is about 59 games/season. I understand that Pops gives guys rests, but I still wonder about his durability. That would scare me...I'm thinking McDyess at this moment.

With all this said...If I could be guaranteed that he would give us injury free seasons where he plays 75 games/year at the level he's played at when healthy, it would be hard not to think about picking him up, even if it meant trading guys I really like. I'm not not sure about his durability at this point.

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