franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:this is the first year of a new front office. This is the first time since I have followed the Knicks (late 80s) the world rebuild has ever been used. The only vets this FO has brought in are ones willing to work with young players, which Jack/Beasley (Sessions was also) were. The only commitment was to Hardaway who at $17mm is... OK. Kanter is 25 and has had some huge games vs. Embiid already so Im not sure what you are looking at there aside from the usual sky is falling.

Knicks are NOT where Boston or Philly are. There is no relevance in comparing them. You mentioned Noel, OK, Williams... How long where all those guys in Phili? Longer than the 12 minutes your ideas last.

The only strategy here should be how to build around KP successfully so we are a playoff-bound team when he is 100% healthy by surrounding him with good, young pieces. Any reaction from Briggs and others alike who say offer IT a big contract, blow it all up by trading KP, or whatever will always be a knee-jerk reaction to another lost season in the win-column. That is what rebuilding is, taking the lumps until you get it right. KP has an entire career ahead of him, there is no rush or need to make another franchise-altering direction. We know what the direction of the front office is, adding talent in the 20-25 age range and hope to hit on some of them. Debating other directions after each game is pointless.

There havent been any quick fix moves to make the playoffs. Were stockpiling picks. G league development is having a positive impact on the team. Players and mgmt are more or less on the same page. This is how its done.

Exactly right. But because we aren't the Celtics or Sixers already, we must be doing it all wrong!!!

To add: For me, how the front office handles the next 2 drafts, KOQ/Kanter/Lee over the next 2 seasons, mid-level signings, free agent cap space signings in 2019 will tell us a lot about their capability.

Next 2 drafts will be make or break for this organization moving forward.

For me: KantPart/KOQ/Lee

Maybe it's me, but having Kanter as your starter, next to KP, with a poor man version of KP off the bench? That's got to be one of the softest defensive units in the NBA. Lance Thomas is a solid player to have. He guards all the best players in the NBA, and does ok hitting a few jumpers. But If Kanter and Lance are in the starting lineup, then we will always be behind the elite teams.

Same things I said about Melo is the same with KP. We need players around KP that fill his weaknesses. KP is a good shot blocker, but he can't protect the rim, and leak out on fastbreaks and try to be this offensive all star. We need a shot blocker and a center that plays defense, instead of standing under the rim looking for a charge, just to get posturized.

Lance Thomas should be sitting next to Jack, getting ready for an assistant coaching position. Watching the game yesterday made it clear to me. This team goes as far as Lance offense goes (he's open for a reason). This team goes as far as Kanters rim protection (too easy to score on Kanter). A healthy KP covered up these weaknesses before he went down. Now they are exposed again, which is good. Maybe now without KP, management can clearly see where the holes are. Center and SF....Defense, Athletes, Catch and shoot players.

I think you and I are in agreement but I can't tell?

All three need to be gone from the Knicks if we are building a deep playoff team. And THJr needs to come off the bench.

I'm curious - what do you think the Knicks should do if Kanter opts out? Part of me would be happy with him back at a reasonable rate. Part of me worries that if they don't bring him back, they will lock the money up to add another talent similar to THjr- and that would be horrible because we just don't have enough talent to lock up salary on non-franchise changing talent..

They should all high-five each other! $18M is a lot to leave on the table for Kanter and I do think he will opt in to that last year, only a few teams have cap space and not the teams that would invest in the likes of Kanter. The Knicks do have a warm body to throw out there at C: Noah.

Kanter does not shoot outside of 5 feet. His defense is way below average, and if he is a starter on a good playoff team, it's expected that he would organize the D. He is a bad passer. He is a black hole on O. He does not intimidate at the rim. But he sure does hussle and is good on social media and in the lockerroom.

He'd be OK at the mid-level off the bench AFTER you have all your starters in place. You invest $8-$12M in Kanter today, it's the difference in between signing a $15M free agent and a $25-30M free agent down the line. You want to keep KOQ/Kanter/Beas at mid-level prices, you forgo the opportunity to nab a playoff level starter in 2 years.

franco12 wrote:Part of me worries that if they don't bring him back, they will lock the money up to add another talent similar to THjr- and that would be horrible because we just don't have enough talent to lock up salary on non-franchise changing talent..

I think you nailed it. We will see a lot about the Perry/Mills/Knicks plan in how they handle KOQ/Kanter/Lee over the next 2 years. Let them go/move them and we are at least heading in the right direction. Draft a SF and sign KOQ to a 1-year deal, that's OK cause we still on the same horizon.

knicks1248 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:this is the first year of a new front office. This is the first time since I have followed the Knicks (late 80s) the world rebuild has ever been used. The only vets this FO has brought in are ones willing to work with young players, which Jack/Beasley (Sessions was also) were. The only commitment was to Hardaway who at $17mm is... OK. Kanter is 25 and has had some huge games vs. Embiid already so Im not sure what you are looking at there aside from the usual sky is falling.

Knicks are NOT where Boston or Philly are. There is no relevance in comparing them. You mentioned Noel, OK, Williams... How long where all those guys in Phili? Longer than the 12 minutes your ideas last.

So what exactly do you call what walsh do.

You think sitting on your hands waiting for the lottery is how your going to get better(is that your love affair with the process), it takes trades, FA, coaching, gambles, luck, and a commitment to winning

Has this front office proven they are capaable of that?

they tried it your way for 15 years and it never worked. Im glad they are doing it a different way and not making those stupid trades they used to make throwing away constant picks/youth for bloated contracts

You have to make trades dude, no one is saying they had to be like yrs pass, but your going to have to get those key pieces through trades, and there's going to be some sacrificing involve. If you sit on your hands and make minor trades like they did with willy and mudiay, lateral moves that sustain the losing culture, your pretty much going to GET FIRED in NYC, and its like that with mostly all the TEAMS.

knicks1248 wrote:

dacash wrote:During the time that Boston was losing and stockpiling picks and philly was tanking and stockpiling picks they had one thing in common, the same front off ice thru it. And fans that were somewhat patient. Hinkie got ran out of town but left a ton if good players to work with. When Phil came on he had nothing but a c plus player masquerading as a a plus player. For all his mistakes he drafted kp and went after undrafted guys for the g league then drafted Frankie. But we got inpatient saying now now now. So he was ran out if Town. Now we gave a guy that did not oaniv and do some band side trades at the deadline traded the player who was untraceable to okc not Houston for much less and bad contracts. He seems to have a plan and is sticking with it. Philly fud not do thus yesterday it took a few years if bragging that would lose and Boston didn't do it overnight, remember the took a chance on Thomas similar to how we ate taking a chance of Burke. I'm.not saying will have the Same impact but instead of wasting assets perry us taking chances on guys thst might up up side young guys that might be something . it just takes a lil bit of patience .

They didn't stock pile anything, they made good trades, like trading KG, PP to the nets knowing they had a yr left of their prime, boston also traded for Isaiah. Boston really had one bad season.

Philly would have been this good 2 seasons ago had it not been for the injuries to Embiid/simmmons, and now fultz.

Phil traded our chips for BS and 2nd rounders, JR( a yr remove from 6th man of the yr) Tyson(a yr or 2 removed from DOY), shump, a very decent defensive young player, what did we get, lance, calderon, cle Anthony.

Mills follow that pattern by getting BS for Melo because of the NTC, and devaluing him along the way.

You see boston didn't diminish PP and KGs value, like the knicks did melo, jr, and shump and Tyson.

philly didn't rush EMbiid and simmons or fultz, like the knicks are doing with frank (not that frank was injured) but he's not ready physical or mentally.

But the fans were still patient which NY fans don't seem to be. Yes they traded players but the nets gave them draft picks . the fans understood. I'm sure they hated it but saw a bigger picture mist knick fans don't they only the end result of wjay a team has done. Imagine if embiud was here he would run out of town instead of being praised. Frank missed summer league games he was a bust. Fultz misses the season almost yet is going to be good. Have patience . this new regime seems to be not bowing to pressure or panicking. Which is good

Our goal should be to clean up 2019 cap unless able to land a long term player . And draft talent that will fit the identity that we want to build with KP and the rest of the cast.

2-way forwards that could put the ball on the floor, rebound, shoot
A stronger defensive presence at C/PF.
Burke will be in the mix for starting or rotation at PG. Would like another lead guard with 2-way ability. Which will allow knicks to maintain flexibility with Frank for 3 positions.

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:They will be hard to beat. Which is y short sighted moves like trading for Bledsoe or Kemba would gave made little sense.

Our goal should be to clean up 2019 cap unless able to land a long term player . And draft talent that will fit the identity that we want to build with KP and the rest of the cast.

2-way forwards that could put the ball on the floor, rebound, shoot
A stronger defensive presence at C/PF.
Burke will be in the mix for starting or rotation at PG. Would like another lead guard with 2-way ability. Which will allow knicks to maintain flexibility with Frank for 3 positions.

What has cap space ever gotten us, Amare, AA, Noah, Felton, KOQ, Dwill. Phil and walsh had enough cap space during their tenure to sign a super star/all star/very good player.

Nothing is guaranteed with cap space and draft picks because we have had both in the last 6 yrs, and we are still a lottery team.

Drafting projects and signing 3rd tier fA

All im saying is we haven't had a regime that drafted well, made solid trades, and signed decent FA without doling out noah/amare type contracts. Noah is the worst i ever seen because he is healthy collecting 18 million $$ and sitting on a beach

Nothing is guaranteed and any route you take is based off what makes sense for your current situation. Given our current situation. This is the best route to take due to our salary situation and roster make up and injury to KP.

If we want to be a serious contender then we need to be able to add talent from the draft & free agency & smart trades. Maintaining flexibility to use those 3 avenues allowed to improve your team And you have to put yourself in the best position to capitalize. Saying we haven't been good enough at the draft & or signed quality enough players in free agency in the past. So we shouldn't look to utilized 2 of the 3 avenues the NBA gives you to improve your team. That's insane!!!!!

The problem of trading prospect & or picks for established players is that your trading the possibility of 2-3 players(the draft pick or prospect & the cap space used to match his contract) for one player. At the stage we are at now we shouldn't be doing that. If we want to build a perennial playoff team which has potential to become a contender. We need to hit on draft picks & free agents. We haven't done so which is why we have lost. Trying to avoid drafting and cap space at all cost isn't going to translate to winning. To win we have to become good at those things. Meaning its not the draft or cap space fault.

After the Knicks build up their talent base giving them flexibility. Then they can start making those Kemba & Bledsoe trades. Just like how Miluakee did. Bucks already had enough talent to be a playoff lock season after season with multiple talented pieces on it. Trading for a guy like Bledsoe makes sense for them. For us we are at the stages of trying to build up enough talent to be where Bucks were before Bledsoe was added.

What really good team has cap flexibility. You do exactly what Grunwald did and dont sign anyone pass 3 yrs, which is the window to see if it works.

You also need the kembas and Bledsoes to attract other FA, mo FA is signing with us because of frank, mudiay, troy or and other cheap fringe MBA PLAYER.

No FA is signing with a lottery team unless your him given him AMARE $$. THE wolves were not going to get any big time FA to sign, sothey had to sacrifice and trade for one.

I'll tell you what, if butke continues on his path, it will be the smartest move the knicks have made since trading for sprewell and LJ 12 yrs ago

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:They will be hard to beat. Which is y short sighted moves like trading for Bledsoe or Kemba would gave made little sense.

Our goal should be to clean up 2019 cap unless able to land a long term player . And draft talent that will fit the identity that we want to build with KP and the rest of the cast.

2-way forwards that could put the ball on the floor, rebound, shoot
A stronger defensive presence at C/PF.
Burke will be in the mix for starting or rotation at PG. Would like another lead guard with 2-way ability. Which will allow knicks to maintain flexibility with Frank for 3 positions.

What has cap space ever gotten us, Amare, AA, Noah, Felton, KOQ, Dwill. Phil and walsh had enough cap space during their tenure to sign a super star/all star/very good player.

Nothing is guaranteed with cap space and draft picks because we have had both in the last 6 yrs, and we are still a lottery team.

Drafting projects and signing 3rd tier fA

All im saying is we haven't had a regime that drafted well, made solid trades, and signed decent FA without doling out noah/amare type contracts. Noah is the worst i ever seen because he is healthy collecting 18 million $$ and sitting on a beach

Nothing is guaranteed and any route you take is based off what makes sense for your current situation. Given our current situation. This is the best route to take due to our salary situation and roster make up and injury to KP.

If we want to be a serious contender then we need to be able to add talent from the draft & free agency & smart trades. Maintaining flexibility to use those 3 avenues allowed to improve your team And you have to put yourself in the best position to capitalize. Saying we haven't been good enough at the draft & or signed quality enough players in free agency in the past. So we shouldn't look to utilized 2 of the 3 avenues the NBA gives you to improve your team. That's insane!!!!!

The problem of trading prospect & or picks for established players is that your trading the possibility of 2-3 players(the draft pick or prospect & the cap space used to match his contract) for one player. At the stage we are at now we shouldn't be doing that. If we want to build a perennial playoff team which has potential to become a contender. We need to hit on draft picks & free agents. We haven't done so which is why we have lost. Trying to avoid drafting and cap space at all cost isn't going to translate to winning. To win we have to become good at those things. Meaning its not the draft or cap space fault.

After the Knicks build up their talent base giving them flexibility. Then they can start making those Kemba & Bledsoe trades. Just like how Miluakee did. Bucks already had enough talent to be a playoff lock season after season with multiple talented pieces on it. Trading for a guy like Bledsoe makes sense for them. For us we are at the stages of trying to build up enough talent to be where Bucks were before Bledsoe was added.

What really good team has cap flexibility. You do exactly what Grunwald did and dont sign anyone pass 3 yrs, which is the window to see if it works.

You also need the kembas and Bledsoes to attract other FA, mo FA is signing with us because of frank, mudiay, troy or and other cheap fringe MBA PLAYER.

No FA is signing with a lottery team unless your him given him AMARE $$. THE wolves were not going to get any big time FA to sign, sothey had to sacrifice and trade for one.

I'll tell you what, if butke continues on his path, it will be the smartest move the knicks have made since trading for sprewell and LJ 12 yrs ago

Most good teams have cap flexibility. You are confusing cap space with cap flexibility.

You are also forgetting the lotto picks that would be acquired before the 2019 season. 2019 cap space also doesn't strictly mean going after the biggest superstar available or bust. Cap space could just mean adding another proven piece or 2 that's not a draft pick but fits the long term group. With 2 lotto picks and a solid FA signing to go with KP, Frank, Burke, THjr etc. Then a move for a Kemba or Bledsoe(figuratively) starts to make sense. Having the cap space to eat the contract without matching salaries also would be more beneficial which is a possibility since Frank, & the 2 lotto picks would be on rookie scale contracts.

And that's the key. Having talent on rookie scale contracts so that you can add even more talent with cap space by fa signings or trade flexibility. If everyone on your team that's good is making 10-30mil then its a lot harder to improve.

The Burke example you just gave is a great example of whats wrong with your thought process. You say you consider it the smartest move the Knicks have made since Sprewell strictly because it would have worked out. But there was nothing special about the Burke move other then giving an ex lotto pick another chance. Which is routine practice in the NBA since there is no risk involved at all.

The Wolves had to add like 6 first round draft picks with I believe 4 lotto and 2 #1 picks to put themselves in position to be able to sacrifice for a star while still being able to fall back on enough talent to compete.

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Just in our own division for the next 7-8 years. I don't know how well find the talent philly has. The bottom line is the pain they went through was worth it. The chances and patience they had was worth it. They also like Bremen said tonight cut ties quick w high picks. This is going to be a championship team if healthy one day soon-- wish we could've taken the same path.

You are making things more complicated than they actually have to be.

Given every specific situation that comes up, you make the best market based decision you can given the time and place. That's it. Houston didn't turn into a quasi-contender with some crazy long range plan, step by step. Harden was available in a fluke trade, they took him. Dwight Howard has some strange issues in LA, and they signed him. Asik and Lin were products of a loophole in the CBA, so they got signed. No one knew Chris Paul would be on the market, but the Rockets struck. Trevor Ariza was not the Rockets first choice in FA, nor was PJ Tucker. But they made the best of it.

The big lesson of Philly and Boston is to stockpile assets and value and simply wait to see if an opportunity arises. This is not finding a 100 dollar bill in the middle of the road. It's taking a nickel and a penny and getting a dime. Two dimes and getting a quarter back. Three quarters and get a dollars worth. That's it.

Then see what happens.

If you keep making the best market based decisions you can and simply be prepared for any interesting opportunity that comes up, then you've given yourself a slim chance. Which is better than no chance. Most NBA teams have no chance.

The Trailblazers were sitting on Aldridge and Brandon Roy and just drafted Greg Oden. They were looking real good. How did that end up? It's very hard to predict how things will go, even with teams that look like they are rising up fast. But they didn't rise up fast. Philly and Boston took a long time to get better.

One of the problems you have Briggs ( you have many, no doubt) is you see every "miss" on personnel moves as the sky is falling. The Warriors made misses after drafting Curry. Houston signed Ryan Anderson. Philly had Okafor and Noel which they'd like to take back. Boston drafted Joe Young....

Misses are less relevant than was the team doing what they thought was right for winning, without all the external factors ( media perception, GM's trying to protect their jobs, appeasing their ownership, marketing for the networks pressure, ticket sales, etc) at play?

Maybe the Knicks will never catch up to these teams. OK, but they have to try and make the best out of it day by day and choice by choice. What other choice is there? There is no other choice?

Very good post!
A few additions: Philly missed on Oka4 and Norlens but hit it nice with Simmons and Embiid, both missed full seasons as well!! Teams know they will miss picks because the know its not easy and understand the laws of probability
Time and space of the moment is forgotten by fans when applying hindsight and we forget the options they had in front of them at that specific moment in time.
Rockets Missed a lot of things to get to this moment but they statistically created opportunities along the way and were able to not get boxed on mistakes and were able to move forward.
SOmetimes good decisions don’t pan out. THat does not make them bad decisions, they are bad outcomes! THe reverse of that is good decisions turn out better than expected and it’s labeled “Luck”. That’s really just “Opportunty siezed”.