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Hardaway problem
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EnySpree
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3/7/2018  7:26 AM
It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

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Knixkik
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3/7/2018  8:07 AM
To be honest I don't see a difference between SG and SF anymore. Wing players are interchangeable so he would be fine at either position.
Nalod
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3/7/2018  8:12 AM
Lee was out last night.
This experiment might not last very long.
I’m going to assume Frank will lift some weights this summer, maybe the kid is still growing, and I’m going to guess if this was a long term thing he could guard the 3 on defense.
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Knixkik
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3/7/2018  8:33 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/7/2018  8:35 AM
Nalod wrote:Lee was out last night.
This experiment might not last very long.
I’m going to assume Frank will lift some weights this summer, maybe the kid is still growing, and I’m going to guess if this was a long term thing he could guard the 3 on defense.

With a 7'0 wing span, Ntilikina has forward length, so he will have no problem in the future. He and Hardaway can be interchangeable wings without any concern. By comparison, Andre Roberson, who is a premiere wing defender has a 7'0 wingspan, and can guard the 1-4, so Ntilikina will have no issues once he builds up a bit.

newyorknewyork
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3/7/2018  11:39 AM
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

Frank, and Hardaway Jr both have the same length of contract. Frank if viewed as a SG, could back up Thjr his whole rookie deal and then possibly get the starting job when THjr's contract expires.

Or we could wait 2 yrs letting Frank back Thjr up and then move Thjr when he has 2 yrs left.

Moving Lee is more pressing.

Nalod
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3/7/2018  11:40 AM
Knixkik wrote:
Nalod wrote:Lee was out last night.
This experiment might not last very long.
I’m going to assume Frank will lift some weights this summer, maybe the kid is still growing, and I’m going to guess if this was a long term thing he could guard the 3 on defense.

With a 7'0 wing span, Ntilikina has forward length, so he will have no problem in the future. He and Hardaway can be interchangeable wings without any concern. By comparison, Andre Roberson, who is a premiere wing defender has a 7'0 wingspan, and can guard the 1-4, so Ntilikina will have no issues once he builds up a bit.

Im not thinking about next year like many fan's perhaps care to. Knicks are a team of opportunities now and I really don't strain to visualize the future.
Just looking for some rays of sunshine on a cloudy day and the forecast is not encouraging. One day the storm shall pass.

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Knixkik
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3/7/2018  11:49 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

Frank, and Hardaway Jr both have the same length of contract. Frank if viewed as a SG, could back up Thjr his whole rookie deal and then possibly get the starting job when THjr's contract expires.

Or we could wait 2 yrs letting Frank back Thjr up and then move Thjr when he has 2 yrs left.

Moving Lee is more pressing.

Hardaway can easily just be moved to 6th man whenever Frank is ready. Hardaway is still an excellent scorer and 6th man is probably his best role on a great team. He isn't really overpaid for an elite scoring 6th man at his age.

martin
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3/7/2018  11:53 AM
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

He can't guard smaller players either.

Or same sized.

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Vmart
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3/7/2018  12:37 PM
Mudiay and THJ having these two in the lineup doesn’t help the defensive side of the ball and the offense too. They are way to inconsistent to rely on. That’s been the Knicks calling card for almost two decades now. The problem is when you a team carries inconsistent players they tend to disappear at the same time almost guaranteed losing.

The style of play has always been inconsistent also. What do the Knicks do consistently only thing consistent they do is lose. You watch the Warriors, Spurs, Rockets these teams always do what they do. You guys remember the bomb squad team when Patino was coach. They were going to do one thing and that was shoot threes they did it all season. The 90’s you the calling card it was defense. Style of play is very important. This team is just playing play ground or whatever they want to play. This team has had successful people come through and kicked to the curb. Larry Brown with his system, MDA with his and although Phil didn’t coach he tried to implement his system, all these guys ran a successful system. JH doesn’t run a successful system there is no system. One day they play half court the next they try to run and the next they try to shoot threes. They try to run isolation. The players need to be given an agenda.

Knixkik
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3/7/2018  1:00 PM
martin wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

He can't guard smaller players either.

Or same sized.

He will eventually be transitioned to 6th man i think. Frank will be the starting SG at some point, i really believe that. The way the league is going, he is almost the ideal SG, especially if he improves as an open shooter. 3 and D with secondary playmaking ability.

martin
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3/7/2018  1:20 PM
Knixkik wrote:
martin wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

He can't guard smaller players either.

Or same sized.

He will eventually be transitioned to 6th man i think. Frank will be the starting SG at some point, i really believe that. The way the league is going, he is almost the ideal SG, especially if he improves as an open shooter. 3 and D with secondary playmaking ability.

100% on THJr being a 6th man type. No idea, still, why anyone would think Frank is or will be a SG.

His first and most prominent instinct is to pass the ball. To a fault. To a glaring, you better fix that fault. Frank does not compare to many of today's PGs as he is not explosive/score first PG ala Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie, and so many more. But he doesn't have to be. For me, just because the league and a large % of the starting PGs are of one mold, does not disqualify Frank from being a PG.

I literally do not see SG in Frank at all. SGs usually have the mentality of wanting to score, being a gunner, running around screens, popping out. Frank doesn't do any of those things.

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EnySpree
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3/7/2018  1:47 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/7/2018  5:03 PM
Knixkik wrote:To be honest I don't see a difference between SG and SF anymore. Wing players are interchangeable so he would be fine at either position.

Unless Hardaway is asked to guard an equally athletic small fwd that's 6'8" 225lbs and up... thats alot of extra work. A forward has extra responsibility... like rebounding and switching onto the power fwd and center at times. Can't ask Hardaway to do that every night them get mad aau him when he gets hurt or beat badly. He's skillet is handling the ball, driving and shooting. We can't have him trying to attack guys taller and stronger every night. Just isn't fair.

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Knixkik
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3/7/2018  2:12 PM
martin wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
martin wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

He can't guard smaller players either.

Or same sized.

He will eventually be transitioned to 6th man i think. Frank will be the starting SG at some point, i really believe that. The way the league is going, he is almost the ideal SG, especially if he improves as an open shooter. 3 and D with secondary playmaking ability.

100% on THJr being a 6th man type. No idea, still, why anyone would think Frank is or will be a SG.

His first and most prominent instinct is to pass the ball. To a fault. To a glaring, you better fix that fault. Frank does not compare to many of today's PGs as he is not explosive/score first PG ala Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie, and so many more. But he doesn't have to be. For me, just because the league and a large % of the starting PGs are of one mold, does not disqualify Frank from being a PG.

I literally do not see SG in Frank at all. SGs usually have the mentality of wanting to score, being a gunner, running around screens, popping out. Frank doesn't do any of those things.


I understand the SG concerns, but the league is so undefined on position now. Frank is a secondary ball handler right now, who can defend multiple positions and has a nice looking jumper that will go in more each year. Paired with a score-first PG, he is almost the ideal player to put next to that type of player. Not sure if SG is the right term to use, but complimentary player to a lead guard who has the ball in his hands a lot. Put him next to a Harden, Lillard, Beal etc. Someone who isn't necessarily a pure PG, but a guard who has the ball in his hands more often than not. Frank fits next to that player.
martin
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3/7/2018  2:15 PM
Knixkik wrote:
martin wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
martin wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

He can't guard smaller players either.

Or same sized.

He will eventually be transitioned to 6th man i think. Frank will be the starting SG at some point, i really believe that. The way the league is going, he is almost the ideal SG, especially if he improves as an open shooter. 3 and D with secondary playmaking ability.

100% on THJr being a 6th man type. No idea, still, why anyone would think Frank is or will be a SG.

His first and most prominent instinct is to pass the ball. To a fault. To a glaring, you better fix that fault. Frank does not compare to many of today's PGs as he is not explosive/score first PG ala Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie, and so many more. But he doesn't have to be. For me, just because the league and a large % of the starting PGs are of one mold, does not disqualify Frank from being a PG.

I literally do not see SG in Frank at all. SGs usually have the mentality of wanting to score, being a gunner, running around screens, popping out. Frank doesn't do any of those things.


I understand the SG concerns, but the league is so undefined on position now. Frank is a secondary ball handler right now, who can defend multiple positions and has a nice looking jumper that will go in more each year. Paired with a score-first PG, he is almost the ideal player to put next to that type of player. Not sure if SG is the right term to use, but complimentary player to a lead guard who has the ball in his hands a lot. Put him next to a Harden, Lillard, Beal etc. Someone who isn't necessarily a pure PG, but a guard who has the ball in his hands more often than not. Frank fits next to that player.

You are talking about the player today, not what Frank will be.

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newyorker4ever
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3/7/2018  3:35 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/7/2018  3:36 PM
Knixkik wrote:To be honest I don't see a difference between SG and SF anymore. Wing players are interchangeable so he would be fine at either position.

Did you see the GSW game where Timmy had to guard K.Durant? It wasn't a good look. Timmy is no doubt a SG and that's where he needs to be playing. We can get away with it now and since we aren't gonna win games anyway and after we draft one of the Bridges in this draft then we'll have out starting SF.

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3/7/2018  4:17 PM
martin wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
martin wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

He can't guard smaller players either.

Or same sized.

He will eventually be transitioned to 6th man i think. Frank will be the starting SG at some point, i really believe that. The way the league is going, he is almost the ideal SG, especially if he improves as an open shooter. 3 and D with secondary playmaking ability.

100% on THJr being a 6th man type. No idea, still, why anyone would think Frank is or will be a SG.

His first and most prominent instinct is to pass the ball. To a fault. To a glaring, you better fix that fault. Frank does not compare to many of today's PGs as he is not explosive/score first PG ala Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie, and so many more. But he doesn't have to be. For me, just because the league and a large % of the starting PGs are of one mold, does not disqualify Frank from being a PG.

I literally do not see SG in Frank at all. SGs usually have the mentality of wanting to score, being a gunner, running around screens, popping out. Frank doesn't do any of those things.

The reason people talk about moving Frank to SG is because his handle sucks. Personally, I don't see him being able to play PG; I can't think of a player who had as bad a handle as Ntilikina and was able to improve it significantly. My hope is that he can turn into what Kidd was late in his career. I'd be happy with that with the 8th overall pick.

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3/7/2018  5:04 PM
martin wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
martin wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

He can't guard smaller players either.

Or same sized.

He will eventually be transitioned to 6th man i think. Frank will be the starting SG at some point, i really believe that. The way the league is going, he is almost the ideal SG, especially if he improves as an open shooter. 3 and D with secondary playmaking ability.

100% on THJr being a 6th man type. No idea, still, why anyone would think Frank is or will be a SG.

His first and most prominent instinct is to pass the ball. To a fault. To a glaring, you better fix that fault. Frank does not compare to many of today's PGs as he is not explosive/score first PG ala Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie, and so many more. But he doesn't have to be. For me, just because the league and a large % of the starting PGs are of one mold, does not disqualify Frank from being a PG.

I literally do not see SG in Frank at all. SGs usually have the mentality of wanting to score, being a gunner, running around screens, popping out. Frank doesn't do any of those things.

I think he is more shooting guard then point guard at this point. At the 2 it doesn't look like he is learning a new position. He also is effective as a secondary ball handler and has been more aggressive. He definitely looks to pass the ball but for me at the two it seems to be with the intent of getting the best shot. When he plays the point, I see him looking to get rid of the ball or make the initial pass and then fade out of the offense. I don't see him as someone comfortable in the role of primary ball handler.

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martin
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3/7/2018  5:52 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
martin wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

He can't guard smaller players either.

Or same sized.

He will eventually be transitioned to 6th man i think. Frank will be the starting SG at some point, i really believe that. The way the league is going, he is almost the ideal SG, especially if he improves as an open shooter. 3 and D with secondary playmaking ability.

100% on THJr being a 6th man type. No idea, still, why anyone would think Frank is or will be a SG.

His first and most prominent instinct is to pass the ball. To a fault. To a glaring, you better fix that fault. Frank does not compare to many of today's PGs as he is not explosive/score first PG ala Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie, and so many more. But he doesn't have to be. For me, just because the league and a large % of the starting PGs are of one mold, does not disqualify Frank from being a PG.

I literally do not see SG in Frank at all. SGs usually have the mentality of wanting to score, being a gunner, running around screens, popping out. Frank doesn't do any of those things.

I think he is more shooting guard then point guard at this point. At the 2 it doesn't look like he is learning a new position. He also is effective as a secondary ball handler and has been more aggressive. He definitely looks to pass the ball but for me at the two it seems to be with the intent of getting the best shot. When he plays the point, I see him looking to get rid of the ball or make the initial pass and then fade out of the offense. I don't see him as someone comfortable in the role of primary ball handler.

I think that's a fair take

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Knixkik
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3/7/2018  7:02 PM
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
martin wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

He can't guard smaller players either.

Or same sized.

He will eventually be transitioned to 6th man i think. Frank will be the starting SG at some point, i really believe that. The way the league is going, he is almost the ideal SG, especially if he improves as an open shooter. 3 and D with secondary playmaking ability.

100% on THJr being a 6th man type. No idea, still, why anyone would think Frank is or will be a SG.

His first and most prominent instinct is to pass the ball. To a fault. To a glaring, you better fix that fault. Frank does not compare to many of today's PGs as he is not explosive/score first PG ala Westbrook, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie, and so many more. But he doesn't have to be. For me, just because the league and a large % of the starting PGs are of one mold, does not disqualify Frank from being a PG.

I literally do not see SG in Frank at all. SGs usually have the mentality of wanting to score, being a gunner, running around screens, popping out. Frank doesn't do any of those things.

I think he is more shooting guard then point guard at this point. At the 2 it doesn't look like he is learning a new position. He also is effective as a secondary ball handler and has been more aggressive. He definitely looks to pass the ball but for me at the two it seems to be with the intent of getting the best shot. When he plays the point, I see him looking to get rid of the ball or make the initial pass and then fade out of the offense. I don't see him as someone comfortable in the role of primary ball handler.

I think that's a fair take

Look at someone like Gary Harris. Look at his rookie year vs where he is now. Who knows, it's possible Frank may lean more towards that trajectory. Harris is an elite defender, good 3pt shooter, and someone that is more than capable of playing PG for stretches.

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3/7/2018  8:02 PM
Knixkik wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It seems like we want Mudiay and Frank to start in the backcourt... I'm all for it. The potential is there to have something special.

All fine and dandy, but Tim Hardaway is not a small fwd. He's a starting 2 guard exclusively. He can't guard bigger players. He also can't be asked to attack bigger players from the perimeter... it's too much to ask of him. I like the idea of him coming off the bench but will he? It's a mess....

I think we're going to have to trade him... if we want to continue this Mudiay/Frank experiment. We could easily shift that to a Burke/THJr starting back court but tat doesn't seem like the plan. It's that's really annoying but this is where we are. We're developing players. We need to stick a real small fwd in as a starter. We also don't need to have this extra salary on the roster in preparation for 2019 free agency.

Frank, and Hardaway Jr both have the same length of contract. Frank if viewed as a SG, could back up Thjr his whole rookie deal and then possibly get the starting job when THjr's contract expires.

Or we could wait 2 yrs letting Frank back Thjr up and then move Thjr when he has 2 yrs left.

Moving Lee is more pressing.

Hardaway can easily just be moved to 6th man whenever Frank is ready. Hardaway is still an excellent scorer and 6th man is probably his best role on a great team. He isn't really overpaid for an elite scoring 6th man at his age.

We are paying him way too much money for sixth man. I haven't watched Mudiay much but what's the fascination with him? Start Frank and Timmy or trade Timmy

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Hardaway problem

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