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My God Mudiay is awful
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VCoug
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3/8/2018  10:35 PM
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

He isn't though.

Is he shooting very poorly? Yes. Very poorly for a rookie? Yes.

Is he shooting poorly in the context of many other all-stars and HOF players who shot just about the same percentages got better and turned into really good shooters? No.

I can't find any All-Star or HOF players who shot as poorly as Ntilikina has; at least none that aren't big men. I do players that improved their shooting but none of them are what I would call really good shooters.

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VCoug
Posts: 24813
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3/8/2018  10:45 PM
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

His shooting numbers are comparable to Dennis Smith, Ball, and Monk. Ball isn't even shooting 50% from the free throw line. Smith shooting poorly too. Monk and Smith don't have good defensive skills to fall back on, like Ntilikina does.

Malik Monk has been ****ing terrible so I don't know why you're bringing him up but yes, they are comparable. Ball has the most bizarre shooting form of anyone who has ever played basketball at any level and his eFG% is 50 points better and his TS% is 30 points higher than Ntilikina's. Smith's TS% and eFG% are 40 points higher than Ntilikina's. I really don't see how they're comparable at all.

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nyk4ever
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3/8/2018  10:55 PM
VCoug wrote:
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

He isn't though.

Is he shooting very poorly? Yes. Very poorly for a rookie? Yes.

Is he shooting poorly in the context of many other all-stars and HOF players who shot just about the same percentages got better and turned into really good shooters? No.

I can't find any All-Star or HOF players who shot as poorly as Ntilikina has; at least none that aren't big men. I do players that improved their shooting but none of them are what I would call really good shooters.

apparently you didn't really look that hard.

chauncey billups: 37%
jason kidd: 38.5%
kemba walker: 36%
russell westbrook: 39%

and honestly thats just off the top of my head.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
fwk00
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3/8/2018  11:47 PM
blkexec wrote:Mudiay was coming off the bench.....on backup minutes. He's now playing starter minutes...he was bad b4 which is why he went to the bench....Give him an off season to get in shape and we should see a difference.. His jumper may still be a work in progress....But speaking from a shooter.....if u don't have good leg strength.....then your shot will drop off during the season. It was and still is a good cheap gamble by Perry....

Protecting the young Frank from fans like Briggs who changes their mind like the weather. Mudiay is a beat up toy for fans to complain and take their frustration out. Which is a cover for frank until hr develops.

Correct on both counts.

The only metric Frankie should be is in relation to previous 19 year old PGs from overseas who not only have to learn the NBA game but American culture and habit as well in one of the most cut-throat NBA markets in the US.

Mudiay wasn't going to turn into a Prince the minute we traded for him. He became an expendable project on a team that had found better immediate options and who were preparing to compete NOW.

IMO, Hornacek is the perfect coach for a team that is guard heavy, young, and willing to learn. Given time Frankie and Mudiay *can* develop into a respectable guard tandem for the Knicks, maybe even a great one. Staying the course, however, requires a NY miracle.

knicks1248
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3/9/2018  12:59 AM
nyk4ever wrote:
VCoug wrote:
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

He isn't though.

Is he shooting very poorly? Yes. Very poorly for a rookie? Yes.

Is he shooting poorly in the context of many other all-stars and HOF players who shot just about the same percentages got better and turned into really good shooters? No.

I can't find any All-Star or HOF players who shot as poorly as Ntilikina has; at least none that aren't big men. I do players that improved their shooting but none of them are what I would call really good shooters.

apparently you didn't really look that hard.

chauncey billups: 37%
jason kidd: 38.5%
kemba walker: 36%
russell westbrook: 39%

and honestly thats just off the top of my head.

The difference is those guys shot the ball and looked for their shot way more than frank, he takes 6 shots and misses 4 and his FT attempts is the lowest amongst players avg his minutes. Westbrook took 428 FT in his rookie yr, frank doesnt even have 65

ES
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3/9/2018  8:00 AM
I think he needs to learn how to shoot. He should be working with H20 all off season to improve his shot. Once he does that and gets confidence he have the mid range game needed to keep defenders off balance. Drive or shoot will be available to him and he will be good. Defensively he just needs to work harder.

He is 22 years old and has talent.

Yet another mistake by Dolan. When will it end?
Paris907
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3/9/2018  8:04 AM
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

I thought few weeks back EnY was ready to build a statue of Mudiay and send the Frenchman back to France. Mudiay has looked bad. Sure he can get hot and can penetrate but he’s horribly inconsistent
His defense is lackluster and he doesn’t seem under control. Otherwise he’s fine.

VCoug
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3/9/2018  9:57 AM
nyk4ever wrote:
VCoug wrote:
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

He isn't though.

Is he shooting very poorly? Yes. Very poorly for a rookie? Yes.

Is he shooting poorly in the context of many other all-stars and HOF players who shot just about the same percentages got better and turned into really good shooters? No.

I can't find any All-Star or HOF players who shot as poorly as Ntilikina has; at least none that aren't big men. I do players that improved their shooting but none of them are what I would call really good shooters.

apparently you didn't really look that hard.

chauncey billups: 37%
jason kidd: 38.5%
kemba walker: 36%
russell westbrook: 39%

and honestly thats just off the top of my head.

Billups' shooting number are way better than Ntilikina's; he has an eFG% 40 points higher and TS% 80 points higher. The other guys you mentioned do have similar eFG% to Ntilikina but they all have TS% at least 30 points higher.

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VCoug
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3/9/2018  9:59 AM
Paris907 wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

I thought few weeks back EnY was ready to build a statue of Mudiay and send the Frenchman back to France. Mudiay has looked bad. Sure he can get hot and can penetrate but he’s horribly inconsistent
His defense is lackluster and he doesn’t seem under control. Otherwise he’s fine.

Other than shooting, passing, and defense Mudiay is fine.

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WaltLongmire
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3/9/2018  11:45 AM
VCoug wrote:
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

He isn't though.

Is he shooting very poorly? Yes. Very poorly for a rookie? Yes.

Is he shooting poorly in the context of many other all-stars and HOF players who shot just about the same percentages got better and turned into really good shooters? No.

I can't find any All-Star or HOF players who shot as poorly as Ntilikina has; at least none that aren't big men. I do players that improved their shooting but none of them are what I would call really good shooters.


Hornacek talked about his own career the other day...

Horny entered the league at 23! His first 3 years of shooting from 3... 28%, 29%, 33%. His first year over 40% was when he was 26 years old! He ended up with a career 40% from distance.

You can reach your own conclusions.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
WaltLongmire
Posts: 27564
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3/9/2018  11:56 AM
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It was a good gamble, but you're right, he's looking really bad.

Im still not sure about cost--did we give up a 2? and what did we get for Willy again?

We swapped 2nd round picks which might cost us a few spots. Not really a concern though. We basically gave up nothing.

We didn't swap 2nd, we gave one up: http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/Search/SearchResults.php?Player=Mudiay&Team=&BeginDate=2018-02-08&EndDate=2018-02-08&PlayerMovementChkBx=yes&Submit=Search

Not like it's a disaster of a trade but it wasn't a good one.


Didn't we receive back the Portland 2nd round pick? Don't we still have 2 second round picks this year?

Denver gave us...
• Emmanuel Mudiay
• 2018 second round pick (less favorable of Blazers, Kings picks)
EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
WaltLongmire
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3/9/2018  12:01 PM
I think the biggest issue for Mudiay is that he is a terrible defender...He's incapable of being consistent.

Denver has Jokic, who you have to love on the offensive end, but when I have seen him he is a weak defender on the pick and roll, and he's a terrible shot blocker...Denver HAS to have solid perimeter defenders if you want to feature Jokic...Mudiay was inconsistent on offense, but I think his biggest issue was his inconsistency on D.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
VCoug
Posts: 24813
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3/9/2018  12:02 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
VCoug wrote:
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

He isn't though.

Is he shooting very poorly? Yes. Very poorly for a rookie? Yes.

Is he shooting poorly in the context of many other all-stars and HOF players who shot just about the same percentages got better and turned into really good shooters? No.

I can't find any All-Star or HOF players who shot as poorly as Ntilikina has; at least none that aren't big men. I do players that improved their shooting but none of them are what I would call really good shooters.


Hornacek talked about his own career the other day...

Horny entered the league at 23! His first 3 years of shooting from 3... 28%, 29%, 33%. His first year over 40% was when he was 26 years old! He ended up with a career 40% from distance.

You can reach your own conclusions.

Hornacek also had a TS% 90 points higher, and eFG% 70 points higher, and a 2P% 100 points higher than Ntilikina's.

Knicksfans Forzingis!
WaltLongmire
Posts: 27564
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Joined: 6/28/2014
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3/9/2018  12:24 PM
VCoug wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
VCoug wrote:
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

He isn't though.

Is he shooting very poorly? Yes. Very poorly for a rookie? Yes.

Is he shooting poorly in the context of many other all-stars and HOF players who shot just about the same percentages got better and turned into really good shooters? No.

I can't find any All-Star or HOF players who shot as poorly as Ntilikina has; at least none that aren't big men. I do players that improved their shooting but none of them are what I would call really good shooters.


Hornacek talked about his own career the other day...

Horny entered the league at 23! His first 3 years of shooting from 3... 28%, 29%, 33%. His first year over 40% was when he was 26 years old! He ended up with a career 40% from distance.

You can reach your own conclusions.

Hornacek also had a TS% 90 points higher, and eFG% 70 points higher, and a 2P% 100 points higher than Ntilikina's.


The concept under discussion has to do a game evolving through experience, physical maturation, confidence, and fine tuning your skills.

Frank actually improved his shot in France...you seem to think that he won't feel more comfortable on the offensive end as he gets older...I'm saying that it's foolish to believe that.

Time will tell...one of us will admit that we were wrong 2-4 years down the line...I'm expecting that it will be you.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
martin
Posts: 47550
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
3/9/2018  3:30 PM
VCoug wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
VCoug wrote:
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

He isn't though.

Is he shooting very poorly? Yes. Very poorly for a rookie? Yes.

Is he shooting poorly in the context of many other all-stars and HOF players who shot just about the same percentages got better and turned into really good shooters? No.

I can't find any All-Star or HOF players who shot as poorly as Ntilikina has; at least none that aren't big men. I do players that improved their shooting but none of them are what I would call really good shooters.


Hornacek talked about his own career the other day...

Horny entered the league at 23! His first 3 years of shooting from 3... 28%, 29%, 33%. His first year over 40% was when he was 26 years old! He ended up with a career 40% from distance.

You can reach your own conclusions.

Hornacek also had a TS% 90 points higher, and eFG% 70 points higher, and a 2P% 100 points higher than Ntilikina's.

I dont even understand what these mean. Could you lay the numbers side by side for us? Don't even know what you are comparing and what 90 points higher means

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KNICKSBIGCATS
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3/9/2018  3:32 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/9/2018  3:45 PM
martin wrote:
KNICKSBIGCATS wrote:
martin wrote:
KNICKSBIGCATS wrote:Call Danny Ainge about Terry Rozier.
He's significantly better than anything the Knicks got.
Offer O'quinn, cash, and the 2018 Chicago 2nd rounder.

KOQ isn't tradeable.

Knicks will most likely have Frank, Trey, Mudiay on the roster next year and you want another PG type?

How does this even come close to making sense?

Like I said, Martin, the Knicks have NOTHING at point guard.
Mudiay is horrible, Trey is a backup for a mediocre team and Frank
needs to go to the G league for a while. Terry Rozier is wayyyyy better than any of them
and he steps right in as the starter. But, you'd rather have the three stooges (F,T,M).

I haven't made one comment about F, T, M versus Terry. I have told you that you won't be able to trade KOQ because he will either opt in or opt out.

And having 4 PGs on the roster does not make sense.

So try again. But this time think it out and try to make sense.

No problem, Martin. You are correct. Having 4 PGs on the roster makes no sense.
I never suggested that the knicks should have that. You did.
My point is, of the current three stooges, Mudiay doesn't belong in the NBA.
He should NOT be "on the roster next year."
So you're left with F and T as backups with Rozier as your starter.
My point is that the Knicks could use a guy like Rozier.
FYI, the Celts wanted KOQ a while back but that ship has sailed since the Greg Monroe signing.
Whatever. Carry on. Go Celtics!

"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships." -Michael Jordan
martin
Posts: 47550
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3/9/2018  4:01 PM
KNICKSBIGCATS wrote:
martin wrote:
KNICKSBIGCATS wrote:
martin wrote:
KNICKSBIGCATS wrote:Call Danny Ainge about Terry Rozier.
He's significantly better than anything the Knicks got.
Offer O'quinn, cash, and the 2018 Chicago 2nd rounder.

KOQ isn't tradeable.

Knicks will most likely have Frank, Trey, Mudiay on the roster next year and you want another PG type?

How does this even come close to making sense?

Like I said, Martin, the Knicks have NOTHING at point guard.
Mudiay is horrible, Trey is a backup for a mediocre team and Frank
needs to go to the G league for a while. Terry Rozier is wayyyyy better than any of them
and he steps right in as the starter. But, you'd rather have the three stooges (F,T,M).

I haven't made one comment about F, T, M versus Terry. I have told you that you won't be able to trade KOQ because he will either opt in or opt out.

And having 4 PGs on the roster does not make sense.

So try again. But this time think it out and try to make sense.

No problem, Martin. You are correct. Having 4 PGs on the roster makes no sense.
I never suggested that the knicks should have that. You did.
My point is, of the current three stooges, Mudiay doesn't belong in the NBA.
He should NOT be "on the roster next year."
So you're left with F and T as backups with Rozier as your starter.
My point is that the Knicks could use a guy like Rozier.
FYI, the Celts wanted KOQ a while back but that ship has sailed since the Greg Monroe signing.
Whatever. Carry on. Go Celtics!

lol what does that even mean?

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GustavBahler
Posts: 34496
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3/9/2018  4:23 PM
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
VCoug wrote:
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

He isn't though.

Is he shooting very poorly? Yes. Very poorly for a rookie? Yes.

Is he shooting poorly in the context of many other all-stars and HOF players who shot just about the same percentages got better and turned into really good shooters? No.

I can't find any All-Star or HOF players who shot as poorly as Ntilikina has; at least none that aren't big men. I do players that improved their shooting but none of them are what I would call really good shooters.


Hornacek talked about his own career the other day...

Horny entered the league at 23! His first 3 years of shooting from 3... 28%, 29%, 33%. His first year over 40% was when he was 26 years old! He ended up with a career 40% from distance.

You can reach your own conclusions.

Hornacek also had a TS% 90 points higher, and eFG% 70 points higher, and a 2P% 100 points higher than Ntilikina's.

I dont even understand what these mean. Could you lay the numbers side by side for us? Don't even know what you are comparing and what 90 points higher means

Dont really care what Frank's shooting numbers are as long he is aggressive. Frank has a nice stroke, its a matter or reps, confidence, more than anything. You expect rookies to shoot poorly, you dont expect them to be so unwilling to shoot.

Frank came up as an SG, slipped back into that role like a glove. Just happy Frank may have found his role on the squad, Dont care why another regime drafted him.

Sometimes its more about how a player is wired, than his smarts.

Nalod
Posts: 55910
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3/9/2018  4:27 PM
Rozier was developed. We need to grow our own "Roziers".
If there is glitch in Mudiay's game and knicks think it can be fixed then there is little harm.
Just because mudiay is NOT (Good) does not mean he never will be.
He is bloody awful now. Im not a pro scout/coach and know enough to either blow him off or understand what can be fixed.
But I have seen it happen.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
VCoug
Posts: 24813
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Member: #1406

3/9/2018  7:14 PM
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
VCoug wrote:
martin wrote:
VCoug wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
VCoug wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
colorfl1 wrote:Mudiay is woefully out of shape. I wouldn't make a judgment on anything he does this stretch.
Give him an off-season to get in game shape and work on the hitch in his shot, he will surprise you.

The guy at the YMCA is woefully out of shape but he can still F shoot it. The guy cant shoot a basketball--BIG problem. How many years has Mudiay been in this league now---that hitch is going nowhere. I want to root for the guy but hes not going places.

He's definately unprofessional in his polish but it's annoying how you go straight to bust of a trade when we got him for McDermott...Derm was supposed to be a shooter and he was terrible too.

Mudiay has had his share of good games and plays so far. If you expect him to be a world beater today then you will be disappointed. He does have a good base to work with, so he can get better. His ceiling is still very high. He's got work to doo just like the rest of our young guards

Mudiay definitely hasn't had his share of good games, he's been possibly the worst player on the team. And what good base does he have? He doesn't do anything well.

That's exaggerated... dudes had a 14 and 10 game so spare me that bull****. Frank has been horrible for 60 games.

Regardless it's not about that but I'm not gonna stand for one guy getting bashed and another guy getting the benifit of doubt when they are in the same boat.

Lol, Frank's been horrible for 60 games? Sure, he has but he's shown good defense and court vision though I definitely have my doubts about his future. Mudiay's been horrible for 174 games and hasn't shown anything good at all.

Guys who just look at stats might say Frank has been horrible, but he has shown promise as a defender and open shooter. He has a long ways to go, but his floor is still an NBA role player. I expect him to grow into a starting caliber player based on what he has shown so far this year, especially on defense. Mudiay has been bad on both ends of the floor, leading me to believe that he may fall out of the rotation next year, especially if we add another guard via draft or free agency.

You can't just ignore stats though. You might like the way he looks shooting but he's a bad shooter, even in free throws. I'm hoping he can develop into late career Kidd but there's a long way to go before that happens.

He's shooting over 70% from free throw line. And compare his rookie shooting to other rookies. He's shooting the 3pt around the same as Porzingis did as a rookie. It's easy to see that his jumpshot will improve. He has the form and release. He seems to have work ethic. The concern with him is his aggressiveness and quickness on the offensive end. But he has shown enough to let me know he will be at least a strong role player very soon.

I didn't realize he was finally over 70% (still not a great number), last I had checked he was under. I looked up his FT%, eFG%, and TS% compared to other rookies over the past 40 years, it's not good. And here's the same list for FT%, 2P%, and 3P%: link. ALso, not good. Coincidentally, do you want to guess who is also on both lists?

So let's ignore the fact that Mudiay started 66 games that season and Frank has started 1. Plus Mudiay played a solid 10 minutes/game more than Frank on average. But yeah other than that they are comparable.

Does any of that change the fact that Ntilikina is having an historically bad year shooting the ball even for a rookie?

He isn't though.

Is he shooting very poorly? Yes. Very poorly for a rookie? Yes.

Is he shooting poorly in the context of many other all-stars and HOF players who shot just about the same percentages got better and turned into really good shooters? No.

I can't find any All-Star or HOF players who shot as poorly as Ntilikina has; at least none that aren't big men. I do players that improved their shooting but none of them are what I would call really good shooters.


Hornacek talked about his own career the other day...

Horny entered the league at 23! His first 3 years of shooting from 3... 28%, 29%, 33%. His first year over 40% was when he was 26 years old! He ended up with a career 40% from distance.

You can reach your own conclusions.

Hornacek also had a TS% 90 points higher, and eFG% 70 points higher, and a 2P% 100 points higher than Ntilikina's.

I dont even understand what these mean. Could you lay the numbers side by side for us? Don't even know what you are comparing and what 90 points higher means

All numbers are from their rookie year. I've also included several foreign-born players who struggled through their own growing pains when they first got to the NBA plus Mudiay for ****s and giggles.


Player eFG% TS%
Ntilikina .405 .432
Hornaces .471 .526
Kidd .426 .471
Billups .445 .516
Kemba .411 .464
Westbrook .414 .489
Nowitzki .426 .491
Tony Parker .467 .497
Giannis .463 .518
Mudiay .404 .437

I'm not saying that Ntilikina can't/won't improve and is a bust. I am saying that he is a long, long way away from being a rotational player in the NBA. Even Mudiay, who scarily has the most similar shooting numbers to Ntilikina, has improved over his short career. The problem is Ntilikina's shooting numbers are so bad he's got a long way to just to get to average let alone good.

Knicksfans Forzingis!
My God Mudiay is awful

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