Posted by fishmike:

strike nothing.... ask any coach around the league whos more valuable. This is why OBrien was so pissed about losing Battie. He's one of the best frontcourt defenders in the league. Dont look at a statsheet and tell me what kind of player he is... please spare me.

Battie isnt a good scorer by any means, but he anchors you in the post on defense, he makes penetrating guards change their shot. He's one of the big reasons the Celtics got to the ECFs with Walker defending the 4.

This is what I'm talking about... stats schmats. The KNicks have enough scoring. Give me Bruce Bowen and Battie over Nazr, KT or Baker and Penny for this team in a minute... and I will show you another 5 wins. EASY

I can't really argue with u there, but let me ask u this. How much scoring do u think u can do if u can't provide scoring down-low? How are u gonna get guys like Shaq in foul trouble if ur bigmen can't score? That's why I said "Tony Battie is not ur answer at replacing those guys." If u are gonna replace these guys, bring in an all-around player, not just a defensive minded guys. What you are doing right now is settling. (At-least I think so.) But you do make a valid point. Stats are over-rated.

there's a reason why Nazr never got 30+ minutes per game!


the biggest problem I have with Nazr is his defense. With the team we have we desperately need a defensive big man.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 09/08/2004 16:06:13]

your not settling at all... your building a team of players with complimentary skills. You will have plenty of scoring in TT, Crawford, Marbury, Houston, even Sweetney. Right now we have no major post scorer and no post defender. Battie lets the guards play up more, so will Sweetney.

Forget Shaq, you dont build a team with defending Shaq in mind. The number of talented guards FAR exceeds the number of talented bigs. Isiah is no dummy... he saw what Tayshawn Prince has done in the last 2 years. Ariza is no crapshoot. He may be a year or more away but Isiah knows the value of having a 6'8 athletic defender w/ a 7'2 wingspan.

I'm convinced Isiah's long term plan is move Nazr + pick for an athletic 5, or use that combo + cash to move up and draft one that can play defense fairly soon.

Then your rebuilt team for the next 2-3 years looks like this:
Marbury
Crawford
TT
Sweetney
athletic 5 (use a younger Ratliff/Battie/Camby/Nene/Dalembert type for arguments sake)
bench:
shooter: Houston
athletic defender: Ariza
blue collar frontcourt guy: KT

Speed, depth, skill and length. Looks like a plan to me.

Posted by fishmike:

your not settling at all... your building a team of players with complimentary skills. You will have plenty of scoring in TT, Crawford, Marbury, Houston, even Sweetney. Right now we have no major post scorer and no post defender. Battie lets the guards play up more, so will Sweetney.

Forget Shaq, you dont build a team with defending Shaq in mind. The number of talented guards FAR exceeds the number of talented bigs. Isiah is no dummy... he saw what Tayshawn Prince has done in the last 2 years. Ariza is no crapshoot. He may be a year or more away but Isiah knows the value of having a 6'8 athletic defender w/ a 7'2 wingspan.

I'm convinced Isiah's long term plan is move Nazr + pick for an athletic 5, or use that combo + cash to move up and draft one that can play defense fairly soon.

Then your rebuilt team for the next 2-3 years looks like this:
Marbury
Crawford
TT
Sweetney
athletic 5 (use a younger Ratliff/Battie/Camby/Nene/Dalembert type for arguments sake)
bench:
shooter: Houston
athletic defender: Ariza
blue collar frontcourt guy: KT

Speed, depth, skill and length. Looks like a plan to me.

And what do u do when ur athletic 5 gets injured? What team has only won with an Athletic 5 with Battie's kind of numbers? Those guys won't ever help us win. We had Camby already and he got dem molished by Tim Duncan. You are definately settling with that lineup because u have no true 5.

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by Bizzy211:

Posted by fishmike:

your not settling at all... your building a team of players with complimentary skills. You will have plenty of scoring in TT, Crawford, Marbury, Houston, even Sweetney. Right now we have no major post scorer and no post defender. Battie lets the guards play up more, so will Sweetney.

Forget Shaq, you dont build a team with defending Shaq in mind. The number of talented guards FAR exceeds the number of talented bigs. Isiah is no dummy... he saw what Tayshawn Prince has done in the last 2 years. Ariza is no crapshoot. He may be a year or more away but Isiah knows the value of having a 6'8 athletic defender w/ a 7'2 wingspan.

I'm convinced Isiah's long term plan is move Nazr + pick for an athletic 5, or use that combo + cash to move up and draft one that can play defense fairly soon.

Then your rebuilt team for the next 2-3 years looks like this:
Marbury
Crawford
TT
Sweetney
athletic 5 (use a younger Ratliff/Battie/Camby/Nene/Dalembert type for arguments sake)
bench:
shooter: Houston
athletic defender: Ariza
blue collar frontcourt guy: KT

Speed, depth, skill and length. Looks like a plan to me.

And what do u do when ur athletic 5 gets injured? What team has only won with an Athletic 5 with Battie's kind of numbers? Those guys won't ever help us win. We had Camby already and he got dem molished by Tim Duncan. You are definately settling with that lineup because u have no true 5.

That's a good call. Though, the offense would be much better than that 99 squad, which was basically a fast break monster, and a half court isolation team. Marbury runs probably the best half court offense in the league that doesn't have a dominant post player.

That is why I was saying u were settling. Our offense would be alot better, however, those guys can't stop a talent well developed 5. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying we won't be better cuz those guys are more active on defense, but I like to see offense down-low to make the PFs and Centers work hard on both ends of the court. That's how Detroit was successful as well. Shaq had to work on both ends. Shaq was defended well (Sometimes the Lakers couldn't even get tha ball down to him.) and he had to try to run when Detroit ran their offense. The Lakers were attacked from every which way.

Posted by crzymdups:

I don't think you can try to build a team to beat Shaq. Where does that get you when you have to play a team like Indiana or Detroit? I think we have an ideal offense to beat Detroit right now. Defense? Not yet. I don't know if there's a way to defend Detroit and score on them. Indiana also scares me, I think Stephen Jackson is perfect for that team.

But I don't think you build a team to beat one specific other team. You try to build a collection of talent that works the best with each other. I think Nazr fits with Steph. I don't know if Sweets does. I think the PF we need would ideally be able to finish on a fast break and pull up and fit a 15 foot J. I would have loved Sheed (damn you, Danny Ainge (and Layden for cutting T Knight)) or Drew Gooden for the PF. I think Nazr is not ideal for Steph, but he fits well enough.

"The Lakers were attacked from every which way."
Meaning their starting 5 did everything on offense and defense. I am not implying to build a team around containing Shaq. No, he is only going to be a problem when u "settle" for that Lineup u mentioned. You were too worried about just defending at the 5 position. Bringing in these guys who won't offer you nothing at the offensive end. Look at the Last 4 champions' centers and power forwards:

Shaq/Horace Grant/Samaki Walker
Duncan/David Robinson
Ben Wallace/Rasheed Wallace

Beside Samaki Walker, all these guys can defend and play offense. Samaki was with Shaq so he didn't have to score, but there is only 1 Shaq and he isn't on the Knicks.

And you want this lineup

Battie/Sweetney (there isn't anything wrong with Sweetney in the mix because he could be a monster, but Battie? Are u kinding me?)

Are u sure u aren't settling?

you forgot the other 6 titles won by Longley/Rodman and Cartwright/Grant. Truly men among boys.

Please... we are talking about building a good team first. Lets worry about winning a title when we have a roster like Indiana has or the Nets had

Posted by fishmike:

you forgot the other 6 titles won by Longley/Rodman and Cartwright/Grant. Truly men among boys.

Please... we are talking about building a good team first. Lets worry about winning a title when we have a roster like Indiana has or the Nets had

Sorry I couldn't get to this when u posted it. You are absolutely right on that one, but in all fairness, they had Michael Jordan...the greatest player ever. Never the less, they weren't elite players at their position with the exception of Rodman. So good point.

Posted by fishmike:

lets get good first.. then figure out what guy we need to win a title. We are finally building a team with players that comliment each other. Marbury, Crawford, TT... these guys will all benefit from playing together. If Houston is healthy you have the lethal shooter to add to that mix. Now we need an athlete that can defend at the 5.. doesnt have to be a good scorer. Then on paper you have a nice formula.... something that can win you around 50 each year. That athletic 5 is a big piece to get but its one piece. A year ago it was 5 pieces unless you wanted to build your team around Keith.

Lets get good, build a pipeline and move from there. Oh... and watch some enjoyable ball along the way.

aight, I can dig that~