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Why hasn't Burke been playing?!?
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newyorknewyork
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2/23/2018  10:29 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:But I really think with Burke's ability to create his own shot and his offensive versatility, we would have won a lot more of those close games. And this is when Horny was trying to win and he was going with Jack. What does this say about him?
Why hasn't Burke been playing?!?

There is a difference between

A) Creating your own shot

B) Creating your own shot CONSISTENTLY

C) Creating your own shot CONSISTENTLY with the defense focusing on stopping you above all else

D) Looking for your own shot


Most NBA players can create their own shot sometimes. Depends on the situation, matchup, whether they are in a zone or not, their current usage patterns, the specific layout of the court itself, home versus road, etc, etc.

The best players can do it consistently, night after night.

The elite players can do it night after night with the defenses selling out to lock them down

If Burke could consistently create his own shot at the NBA level, he wouldn't have been in the G League. Hes a player who is looking for his next contract and simply looks for his own shot first, last and only. His job is the actually run the offense. As much as Jarrett Jack gets hammered on this forum, he actually attempts to run the offense. He's just not very good at it. Most of Jack's career, he didn't bother trying to run the offense, he went hero ball. But he's broke and wants to keep an NBA job.

To be fair to Burke, his shooting does look better. Though he's still lousy on defense.

His job is to run the offense. He's not looking to run the offense. He's looking to compile some volume stats to get paid again after this season. Which, on his part, is a boneheaded move. But if he wasn't such a bonehead, he wouldn't have been bounced to the G League in the first place. Yes, give him minutes, he'll put up a few stats, but at the cost of running the actual offense.

He's not very good to start. He's small and slow. He doesn't play within his actual limitations. He is not doing the baseline requirement of his position. I rarely say this, but he's a waste of a roster spot.

He is instant offense off the bench. He can carve himself out a career in that role.

AUTOADVERT
CrushAlot
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2/23/2018  10:39 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:But I really think with Burke's ability to create his own shot and his offensive versatility, we would have won a lot more of those close games. And this is when Horny was trying to win and he was going with Jack. What does this say about him?
Why hasn't Burke been playing?!?

There is a difference between

A) Creating your own shot

B) Creating your own shot CONSISTENTLY

C) Creating your own shot CONSISTENTLY with the defense focusing on stopping you above all else

D) Looking for your own shot


Most NBA players can create their own shot sometimes. Depends on the situation, matchup, whether they are in a zone or not, their current usage patterns, the specific layout of the court itself, home versus road, etc, etc.

The best players can do it consistently, night after night.

The elite players can do it night after night with the defenses selling out to lock them down

If Burke could consistently create his own shot at the NBA level, he wouldn't have been in the G League. Hes a player who is looking for his next contract and simply looks for his own shot first, last and only. His job is the actually run the offense. As much as Jarrett Jack gets hammered on this forum, he actually attempts to run the offense. He's just not very good at it. Most of Jack's career, he didn't bother trying to run the offense, he went hero ball. But he's broke and wants to keep an NBA job.

To be fair to Burke, his shooting does look better. Though he's still lousy on defense.

His job is to run the offense. He's not looking to run the offense. He's looking to compile some volume stats to get paid again after this season. Which, on his part, is a boneheaded move. But if he wasn't such a bonehead, he wouldn't have been bounced to the G League in the first place. Yes, give him minutes, he'll put up a few stats, but at the cost of running the actual offense.

He's not very good to start. He's small and slow. He doesn't play within his actual limitations. He is not doing the baseline requirement of his position. I rarely say this, but he's a waste of a roster spot.

He is instant offense off the bench. He can carve himself out a career in that role.

He is also under contract next year with the Knicks. His deal is only partially guaranteed but he is locked up.
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/new-york-knicks-team-salary/
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
SupremeCommander
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2/23/2018  11:02 AM
put yourself in Horny's shoes... a new GM is here. Horny's results haven't been great. There isn't necessarily a ton of talent here... if I'm Horny (haha) I assume that I'm gone next year. So if I'm him I lean on the vets and salvage my W-L the best I can so that I might get the benefit of the doubt at the next job. The thing about inexpereince is you can't count on it night in, night out. I wish Horny would try to prove to the Knicks why he should be back next year and DEVELOP these guys but...
GustavBahler said: Check please....
Nalod
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2/23/2018  11:11 AM
Let’s not forget magic are awful.
BUrke looks good, lets not make a career out of last nite.
Mudiay is not all of a sudden going to go full Linsanity for us.
Frank was solid. Got toe foul line twice last nite. Did a few nice things and nice defense.
KNicks not going to lose every game.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
CrushAlot
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2/23/2018  11:12 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:put yourself in Horny's shoes... a new GM is here. Horny's results haven't been great. There isn't necessarily a ton of talent here... if I'm Horny (haha) I assume that I'm gone next year. So if I'm him I lean on the vets and salvage my W-L the best I can so that I might get the benefit of the doubt at the next job. The thing about inexpereince is you can't count on it night in, night out. I wish Horny would try to prove to the Knicks why he should be back next year and DEVELOP these guys but...
He played 3 rookies last night. Eight of the guys that he played fit the 25 and under model that Perry and Mills talked about. Playing Lance extensive minutes doesn't usually translate well if you are padding your record with wins and he would fall into the vet category. Lee, Lance and Bease aren't exactly world beaters. I think he is doing what management wants. He might get to stay for his lame duck year.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
fishmike
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2/23/2018  11:25 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:put yourself in Horny's shoes... a new GM is here. Horny's results haven't been great. There isn't necessarily a ton of talent here... if I'm Horny (haha) I assume that I'm gone next year. So if I'm him I lean on the vets and salvage my W-L the best I can so that I might get the benefit of the doubt at the next job. The thing about inexpereince is you can't count on it night in, night out. I wish Horny would try to prove to the Knicks why he should be back next year and DEVELOP these guys but...
He played 3 rookies last night. Eight of the guys that he played fit the 25 and under model that Perry and Mills talked about. Playing Lance extensive minutes doesn't usually translate well if you are padding your record with wins and he would fall into the vet category. Lee, Lance and Bease aren't exactly world beaters. I think he is doing what management wants. He might get to stay for his lame duck year.
and if they play well and Jeff scores high in his exit interviews why not extend him?
fitzfarm
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2/23/2018  11:30 AM

fitzfarm
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2/23/2018  11:32 AM
fishmike wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:put yourself in Horny's shoes... a new GM is here. Horny's results haven't been great. There isn't necessarily a ton of talent here... if I'm Horny (haha) I assume that I'm gone next year. So if I'm him I lean on the vets and salvage my W-L the best I can so that I might get the benefit of the doubt at the next job. The thing about inexpereince is you can't count on it night in, night out. I wish Horny would try to prove to the Knicks why he should be back next year and DEVELOP these guys but...
He played 3 rookies last night. Eight of the guys that he played fit the 25 and under model that Perry and Mills talked about. Playing Lance extensive minutes doesn't usually translate well if you are padding your record with wins and he would fall into the vet category. Lee, Lance and Bease aren't exactly world beaters. I think he is doing what management wants. He might get to stay for his lame duck year.
and if they play well and Jeff scores high in his exit interviews why not extend him?

Yea I think they let stay and run the process for one more year.

martin
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2/23/2018  2:45 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:put yourself in Horny's shoes... a new GM is here. Horny's results haven't been great. There isn't necessarily a ton of talent here... if I'm Horny (haha) I assume that I'm gone next year. So if I'm him I lean on the vets and salvage my W-L the best I can so that I might get the benefit of the doubt at the next job. The thing about inexpereince is you can't count on it night in, night out. I wish Horny would try to prove to the Knicks why he should be back next year and DEVELOP these guys but...

I'd guess that any organization that has some level of communication between coach and FO has a discussion about expectations: Wins, playoffs/no playoffs, player & team development, where the focus is culturally, how to handle situations like Noah, etc.

I'd also say it's probably at least a monthly if not a weekly on-going conversation.

If you see coaches and FO's divert from one-another (say the Skiles- Orlando sitation i.e.) someone will part ways.

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fitzfarm
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2/23/2018  2:50 PM
Nalod wrote:Let’s not forget magic are awful.
BUrke looks good, lets not make a career out of last nite.
Mudiay is not all of a sudden going to go full Linsanity for us.
Frank was solid. Got toe foul line twice last nite. Did a few nice things and nice defense.
KNicks not going to lose every game.

I think we are going to see frank blossom with more PT.... his defense can win games for us

Nalod
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2/23/2018  5:45 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
Nalod wrote:Let’s not forget magic are awful.
BUrke looks good, lets not make a career out of last nite.
Mudiay is not all of a sudden going to go full Linsanity for us.
Frank was solid. Got toe foul line twice last nite. Did a few nice things and nice defense.
KNicks not going to lose every game.

I think we are going to see frank blossom with more PT.... his defense can win games for us

His defense HAS won games for us.
And last nite it did, as well as Burkes offense. One is not at the expense of another

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
CrushAlot
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2/24/2018  12:04 PM
ekstarks94 wrote:5'11
Just rewatched part of the Magic game and noticed Burke had relatively long arms for his size. Googled it and saw that he has a 6'5 wingspan.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
BigRedDog
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2/24/2018  12:29 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:But I really think with Burke's ability to create his own shot and his offensive versatility, we would have won a lot more of those close games. And this is when Horny was trying to win and he was going with Jack. What does this say about him?
Why hasn't Burke been playing?!?

There is a difference between

A) Creating your own shot

B) Creating your own shot CONSISTENTLY

C) Creating your own shot CONSISTENTLY with the defense focusing on stopping you above all else

D) Looking for your own shot


Most NBA players can create their own shot sometimes. Depends on the situation, matchup, whether they are in a zone or not, their current usage patterns, the specific layout of the court itself, home versus road, etc, etc.

The best players can do it consistently, night after night.

The elite players can do it night after night with the defenses selling out to lock them down

If Burke could consistently create his own shot at the NBA level, he wouldn't have been in the G League. Hes a player who is looking for his next contract and simply looks for his own shot first, last and only. His job is the actually run the offense. As much as Jarrett Jack gets hammered on this forum, he actually attempts to run the offense. He's just not very good at it. Most of Jack's career, he didn't bother trying to run the offense, he went hero ball. But he's broke and wants to keep an NBA job.

To be fair to Burke, his shooting does look better. Though he's still lousy on defense.

His job is to run the offense. He's not looking to run the offense. He's looking to compile some volume stats to get paid again after this season. Which, on his part, is a boneheaded move. But if he wasn't such a bonehead, he wouldn't have been bounced to the G League in the first place. Yes, give him minutes, he'll put up a few stats, but at the cost of running the actual offense.

He's not very good to start. He's small and slow. He doesn't play within his actual limitations. He is not doing the baseline requirement of his position. I rarely say this, but he's a waste of a roster spot.

You are so ****ing stubborn. You have been saying the same crap since Burke was signed. Do you even watch the games? Great coaches ( not that Horny is in this category) or GM's see what a player can do vs what he can't do and then take advantage of that. Waste of a roster space??? You rarely say that? You have been saying that over and over again. C'mon. Burke has proven even at this point that he can be an offensive spark off the bench and certainly can be a back up PG. 18 pts, 11 ass, 26 pts, 6 ass ( which would have been more if his team mates finished better). His defense isn't as bad as people say, really only abused by Russell. He isn't slow. He is very quick and can get past most players to penetrate. Certainly his defense is as good as Jack's. Does he have flaws in his game? Sure , if not he would be an allstar starting PG. His job isn't just to run an offense. Thats part of it, its also pick and roll ( which he does very well), penetrate and dish ( which he looks good at), and give us some offense. Will he get better at running an offense with time? I would think so. He admitted faults in his attitude in the past and vows to improve that. I think most of us see that or at least those of us with open eyes. You have no clue that he's a bonehead. If he was such a bonehead he wouldn't of even had gone to the g league. If you want to think everything is money motivated , go ahead but maybe he has pride and really wants to prove he belongs. Trying to explain this to you is like talking to a ****ing wall.

Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
TripleThreat
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2/24/2018  12:41 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:He is instant offense off the bench. He can carve himself out a career in that role.


He is instant offense off of THIS BENCH. On a team with limited talented, injuries and gutted at the point guard position. He can give you offense if he looks for his own shot at the cost of actually running the offense and with pure volume/attrition.

If he could be true instant offense off of an NBA bench, he wouldn't have been in the G League in the first place. Every team in the league had a chance to get him, for close to free, on a NBA vet minimum contract, and pretty much all of them decided to move on past him.

A) He cannot create his own shot consistently. I'd argue he couldn't do it even randomly against first line NBA defensive units. 2nd and 3rd line units on bad teams, maybe, sometimes. He's slow and small and doesn't make good decisions with the ball. Hence why he was available in the first place

B) Even selling out his entire offense to look for his own shot, he cannot score at a volume needed to justify centralizing an entire 2nd unit offense around him. Someone like Vinnie Johnson aka The Microwave with the old Pistons, sure. A guy with a little more range in skill like Dan Majerle, sure. A glue guy like Mario Elie, sure. There are variations of "6th Men" in NBA history that can offer a little more than just scoring. Burke offers none of it and none of it with efficiency.

All of you guys here could be a 100 yard a game rushing running back for the NY Jets. All of you. ALL OF YOU. If they gave you 100 carries a game. Maybe 85. Some of you 70. Maybe a few of you 50. I'm sure blkexec will walk away from his roomful of mirrors to say he could do it in 10 carries easy peasy. At enough VOLUME, you will produce COUNTING STATS. People keep saying, Player X scored this much this season. And got this many rebounds! OK, but on how many shots? How many minutes? How much tradeoff to the rest of his unit? To team unity? To efficiency?

We all remember Vinny Testaverde right? He played in the NFL forever. He played under our beloved Tuna for a long time. If you look at his career numbers, he has some big ass numbers. But he was actually a very mediocre QB for a long time in an era where QB quality was putrid.

Counting stats are interesting...until they are not. You need more than volume to win games, you need volume in actual context to a team concept.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
TripleThreat
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2/24/2018  9:01 PM
BigRedDog wrote:You are so ****ing stubborn. .... C'mon. Burke has proven even at this point that he can be an offensive spark off the bench and certainly can be a back up PG. 18 pts, 11 ass, 26 pts, 6 ass ( which would have been more if his team mates finished better). His defense isn't as bad as people say, really only abused by Russell. He isn't slow. He is very quick and can get past most players to penetrate. Certainly his defense is as good as Jack's. Does he have flaws in his game? Sure , if not he would be an allstar starting PG. His job isn't just to run an offense. Thats part of it, its also pick and roll ( which he does very well), penetrate and dish ( which he looks good at), and give us some offense. Will he get better at running an offense with time? I would think so. He admitted faults in his attitude in the past and vows to improve that. I think most of us see that or at least those of us with open eyes. You have no clue that he's a bonehead. If he was such a bonehead he wouldn't of even had gone to the g league. If you want to think everything is money motivated , go ahead but maybe he has pride and really wants to prove he belongs. Trying to explain this to you is like talking to a ****ing wall.


Let's take a conservative estimate. The entire front office core of a franchise. Team President, GM, Assistant GM, Director of Player Development, head of scouting, scouts, training staff. Then lets look at the coaching staff - head coach, assistant coaches, training staff. Then there is the medical staff. Then there are assets that are OUTSOURCED. Plenty of teams use outside companies for analytics and scouting and esp international scouting.

A fair number would be 15 guys per franchise. But let's take it super conservative and say 10 per franchise.

That means for every team NOT the Knicks, you have 290 guys. Most who have spent their entire lives within the game. Many have played the game. We are talking decades of experience. But let's be super conservative again and say each had about an average of 10 years of basketball experience of some kind ( that's a super low estimate) Many have worked in front offices or as scouts where the total experience across the entire group racks up in the THOUSANDS OF YEARS WORTH OF EXPERIENCE.

For you to be right about Burke, and take me out of the equation completely, nearly 300 of the best basketball minds in the world, working full time, year round, non stop, with access to the best analytics and modern tools in recorded human history, would need to be wrong about Trey Burke. Every other team could have gotten Burke for the vets minimum. And did not bother.

What's the true narrative?

He has no use for a winning team in a contention window
He has no use for a rebuilding team
He does have a use for a team so gutted at the position that it was his best opportunity since his last major stop, where he was drafted by a franchise gutted at the position for about a decade.

This is NOT the NFL, where hundreds of players need to be scouted. This is not MLB, where it's thousands of players each year. In those environments, players can more easily slip through the cracks. Every NBA player is scouted extensively by virtue of a very limited talent pool in general. Not just in the US, but worldwide. The drafts are small. The leagues are small. It's a very small internal community in the larger sports world.

Let's say you are right and hundreds of NBA minds are wrong. Again, remove me from the equation. What is the chance that Burke, outside his traditional developmental window, just slipped through the cracks? 1 in a thousand? Teams looking to win are going to take the bet on guys who are 80 in a 1000. Or even 50 in a thousand of panning out the way they hope. Even if Burke is everything you say, teams have to evaluate the risk versus reward in terms of investment of those minutes and that roster spot.

You don't have to like what I have to say. You don't have to agree with it. I've never shut down anyone's right to their opinion here. Even if I disagree. And I disagree often. But the perspective I take here and most of the time is how a functional modern NBA front office is going to look at a player available in the marketplace. Hence why Burke was AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I call him a waste of a roster spot not because his failures are absolute, but because his chances to succeed for the long term positive direction of this franchise is a relative loss compared to using those minutes ( an asset in themselves) and that roster spot in other ways.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Why hasn't Burke been playing?!?

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