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Horny Conundrum...
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anrst
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2/16/2018  11:22 AM
i want some other team's assistant who we've all never heard of.

someone who's a real worker with coaching skills. not a name.

AUTOADVERT
knicks1248
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2/16/2018  11:42 AM
NYKBocker wrote:Would really love JVG

As much as I love JVG, he is not playing young players.. but the team would be much more prepared

ES
EnySpree
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2/16/2018  11:45 AM
NYKBocker wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

I see your point, however playing Jack extended minutes doesn't help anything. Playing Kanter and KOQ over Willy was fine and honestly I would have done the same. My only gripe is Jack getting extended minutes. Both Frank and Trey seems to have been doing what is asked of them. Nixluva has made some excellent points about getting Frank in situations that would put him in a better position to succeed but Horny has not done that.

Mudiay actually needs to see what Jack is doing to help him develop. I suspect Jack will be shut down ater a while.

I remember Nixluva talking about putting Frank in a better spot to succeed, but on the flip side, Burke and Mudiay don't seem to have a problem coming off the street and succeeding here. I'm not comfortable altering the game so much just so Frank can succeed. It's a team. I don't want anyone getting special treatment just so that one player can shine. That's just not the right way to go about it. Guys have pride... you would lose a team like that

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knicks1248
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2/16/2018  11:47 AM
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

Excellent point, but it still compromises JH status, meaning, he doesn't have the experience to develop young players.

ES
Nalod
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2/16/2018  12:52 PM
Mudiay was a wake up call? You think Frank is resting on some brief laurals and unmotivated?
Burke is "prideful"? How, because he wants his career trajectory back? Feed his family?
I like the internal competitions but do we really know these guys?
What about willy? "We got Kanter to motivate him Too?
Im all for the best guys playing, but Frank got the opportunity because he is a prospect. A 25 year old retread has to perform NOW!
Mundiay has one more year as a prospect. Frank has a few not because he is just "19" but because he is that, and is a prospect with talent and you give it time.
Frank is now under more pressure but this is a big boy league and he either rises up or not. That is indisputable!
The competition is a good thing no matter the reason.
Knicks1248 likes made up stuff. Sorry Eny, lots of love but we don't know these guys do we? Granted, the scowl vs Willis giggling can be telling to some extent.
Frank is kind of stoic and comes across as not caring?
You don't show a fool a job half done!
NYKBocker
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2/16/2018  12:52 PM
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

I see your point, however playing Jack extended minutes doesn't help anything. Playing Kanter and KOQ over Willy was fine and honestly I would have done the same. My only gripe is Jack getting extended minutes. Both Frank and Trey seems to have been doing what is asked of them. Nixluva has made some excellent points about getting Frank in situations that would put him in a better position to succeed but Horny has not done that.

Mudiay actually needs to see what Jack is doing to help him develop. I suspect Jack will be shut down ater a while.

I remember Nixluva talking about putting Frank in a better spot to succeed, but on the flip side, Burke and Mudiay don't seem to have a problem coming off the street and succeeding here. I'm not comfortable altering the game so much just so Frank can succeed. It's a team. I don't want anyone getting special treatment just so that one player can shine. That's just not the right way to go about it. Guys have pride... you would lose a team like that

Mudiay and Burke already had the offensive skills to be an attacking guard. It's in their basketball upbringing. The AAU way. Frank has been playing pro ball where system is key. Where sharing the ball is put in the forefront.

Mudiay and Burke also doesn't have the defensive skills that Frank has. They are all even in my book.

I am not saying special treatment but to develop somebody you need to put them in the best position to succeed. This means also putting Mudiay and Burke in the best position to succeed. While their offensive output has been more than ok their defensive liabilities needs to be corrected.

So its not just Frank that needs to be coached correctly but so does the 2 other youngins.

Kemet
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2/16/2018  6:14 PM
Hornacek rotation of big men are for college ball or high school b.ball.
The consistent small-ball rotation Horn put on the court all season had no plan or creativeness in a uptempo offense plus got murdered on defense and in a half-court offense.
Hornacek refuse to put two centers in the Knicks game lineup for defense when we were getting outrebound or when we played twin-tower opponents (Boston Hordford n Baynes or Raptor's Vill n Ibaka or Philly Embiid n Marc) .. Hornacek n Rambis 2 season development of KP has turned KP into a low IQ weak-rebounding PF who is clueless on what is needed to win crunch time games.

The Knicks biggest problems throughout the season were not the PG position it was more on our weak big man frontline trying to defend the paint from opponents inside scoring, plus we give up more offensive rebounds than some of the weakest rebounding teams in the league from always running a 3 guard or 4 guard lineup.

EnySpree
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2/16/2018  6:59 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

I see your point, however playing Jack extended minutes doesn't help anything. Playing Kanter and KOQ over Willy was fine and honestly I would have done the same. My only gripe is Jack getting extended minutes. Both Frank and Trey seems to have been doing what is asked of them. Nixluva has made some excellent points about getting Frank in situations that would put him in a better position to succeed but Horny has not done that.

Mudiay actually needs to see what Jack is doing to help him develop. I suspect Jack will be shut down ater a while.

I remember Nixluva talking about putting Frank in a better spot to succeed, but on the flip side, Burke and Mudiay don't seem to have a problem coming off the street and succeeding here. I'm not comfortable altering the game so much just so Frank can succeed. It's a team. I don't want anyone getting special treatment just so that one player can shine. That's just not the right way to go about it. Guys have pride... you would lose a team like that

Mudiay and Burke already had the offensive skills to be an attacking guard. It's in their basketball upbringing. The AAU way. Frank has been playing pro ball where system is key. Where sharing the ball is put in the forefront.

Mudiay and Burke also doesn't have the defensive skills that Frank has. They are all even in my book.

I am not saying special treatment but to develop somebody you need to put them in the best position to succeed. This means also putting Mudiay and Burke in the best position to succeed. While their offensive output has been more than ok their defensive liabilities needs to be corrected.

So its not just Frank that needs to be coached correctly but so does the 2 other youngins.

But it's not to degree that Frank needs. Mudiay can learn to function in defensive schemes and get better making decisions. He had no issues being aggressive and creative though he needs to clean up his handle. Frank is scared to death of shooting the ball unless he's open. He won't drive unless he has a clear lane. He keeps jamming passes inside when he clearly has a layup. He keeps picking up his dribble... as point guard you just can't do that. He's getting stripped and pushed back forcing him to make step back dribbles. He's not aggressive or assertive. He doesn't even look like he's having fun lol. I mean im not even being overly critical... that's what's happening with Frank.

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Kemet
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2/16/2018  7:01 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

I see your point, however playing Jack extended minutes doesn't help anything. Playing Kanter and KOQ over Willy was fine and honestly I would have done the same. My only gripe is Jack getting extended minutes. Both Frank and Trey seems to have been doing what is asked of them. Nixluva has made some excellent points about getting Frank in situations that would put him in a better position to succeed but Horny has not done that.

Mudiay actually needs to see what Jack is doing to help him develop. I suspect Jack will be shut down ater a while.

I remember Nixluva talking about putting Frank in a better spot to succeed, but on the flip side, Burke and Mudiay don't seem to have a problem coming off the street and succeeding here. I'm not comfortable altering the game so much just so Frank can succeed. It's a team. I don't want anyone getting special treatment just so that one player can shine. That's just not the right way to go about it. Guys have pride... you would lose a team like that

Mudiay and Burke already had the offensive skills to be an attacking guard. It's in their basketball upbringing. The AAU way. Frank has been playing pro ball where system is key. Where sharing the ball is put in the forefront.

Mudiay and Burke also doesn't have the defensive skills that Frank has. They are all even in my book.

I am not saying special treatment but to develop somebody you need to put them in the best position to succeed. This means also putting Mudiay and Burke in the best position to succeed. While their offensive output has been more than ok their defensive liabilities needs to be corrected.

So its not just Frank that needs to be coached correctly but so does the 2 other youngins.

I agree on the three young-core PG Frank Burke Mudiay, all 3 do need a much better seasonal headcoach to develop their confidence n creative skills .. I recall GSW ex-headcoach Mark Jackson had the GM sign a all-around defensive PG Shaun Livingston to help develop Curry and Klay defensive-skills throughout a season for the postseason games.

The Knicks owner/front-office/GM has been making me upset the past decade by not hiring one of their Knicks ROY (Patrick Ewing or Mark Jackson) as head coach.

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2/16/2018  7:03 PM
nykshaknbake wrote:You have to wait until the end of the season. Otherwise,it's Kurt rabid or some unknown assistant who will be way over their heads. If it's someone credible (like mark jackson)they should have the benefit if a full training camp and a roster of players that are at least retained through the year. Right now the roster come start of next season maybe quite different.

whats the point of firing him he helps us lose

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Paris907
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2/16/2018  7:11 PM
I think they’ll stay the course until it appears that the talent pool is such that there expectations are higher -
Also, if they have enough athletes and defensive side of the ball matters thatbtoo will make Horny obsolete
TripleThreat
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2/17/2018  2:36 AM
SocraticBallin22 wrote:What needs to happen following the all-star break is for Perry and Mills to have a sit down with Jeff and let him know that he's no longer being evaluated on wins and losses for the rest of the season, but is being evaluated on how much he gets out of developing the young players on the roster in expanded roles. This edict has to come directly from the FO, in order for there to be a significant change in the coaches philosophy. They have to be on the same page as far as what they're trying to accomplish for the rest of the season.


Well, it's an interesting sentiment but the only thing that is relevant to coaches at the pro level is if they are getting a contract extension or not, or if they are getting a bump in power ( i.e. from head coach to head coach/GM)

Public and/or private "votes of confidence" mean nothing. They happen all the time and dudes get fired anyway.

The Knicks are playing veterans because they couldn't trade them. They can't trade them because they offer poor market value. They offer poor market value because they were clearly poor market decisions when they were made.

A few times, Briggs has lashed out at me, saying he believes that I don't think anyone can make a trade ever in the NBA, because of the frequency in which I shoot down trade suggestions on this board. The reason I shoot them down is for exactly this kind of situation. A poor market decision that compounds into a larger problem over time.

Unfortunately ,when teams lose, there is generally a war between the GM and the head coach/manager. Because each wants to blame the other to save their own job. So if you dump Hornacek, you have to also dump Mills.

One of the reasons former players get so many chances in this league to coach is that the modern NBA player is basically an idiot. If you never played in the NBA before and are a head coach, then it's my excuse to not show you any kind of respect at all. Guys like Tony LaRussa and Bill Belichick never played in their leagues. LeBron James tried to get Erik Spolestra fired, which shows you how mind numbing the situation is with players and guaranteed contracts and the fallout of having players holding their franchises hostage.

Kenny Atkinson is a fantastic coach. But he would have never gotten the chance otherwise if the Nets didn't snag him quickly.

If you want better coaches, you have to empower them. Widespread use of a hard cap and non guaranteed contracts would fix much of the problems with headcoaching in the NBA.

"Should have paid Lin and rid ourselves of Melo. Lin makes every team better." - HofstraBBall 11/12/2018
newyorknewyork
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2/17/2018  10:09 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:What needs to happen following the all-star break is for Perry and Mills to have a sit down with Jeff and let him know that he's no longer being evaluated on wins and losses for the rest of the season, but is being evaluated on how much he gets out of developing the young players on the roster in expanded roles. This edict has to come directly from the FO, in order for there to be a significant change in the coaches philosophy. They have to be on the same page as far as what they're trying to accomplish for the rest of the season.


Well, it's an interesting sentiment but the only thing that is relevant to coaches at the pro level is if they are getting a contract extension or not, or if they are getting a bump in power ( i.e. from head coach to head coach/GM)

Public and/or private "votes of confidence" mean nothing. They happen all the time and dudes get fired anyway.

The Knicks are playing veterans because they couldn't trade them. They can't trade them because they offer poor market value. They offer poor market value because they were clearly poor market decisions when they were made.

A few times, Briggs has lashed out at me, saying he believes that I don't think anyone can make a trade ever in the NBA, because of the frequency in which I shoot down trade suggestions on this board. The reason I shoot them down is for exactly this kind of situation. A poor market decision that compounds into a larger problem over time.

Unfortunately ,when teams lose, there is generally a war between the GM and the head coach/manager. Because each wants to blame the other to save their own job. So if you dump Hornacek, you have to also dump Mills.

One of the reasons former players get so many chances in this league to coach is that the modern NBA player is basically an idiot. If you never played in the NBA before and are a head coach, then it's my excuse to not show you any kind of respect at all. Guys like Tony LaRussa and Bill Belichick never played in their leagues. LeBron James tried to get Erik Spolestra fired, which shows you how mind numbing the situation is with players and guaranteed contracts and the fallout of having players holding their franchises hostage.

Kenny Atkinson is a fantastic coach. But he would have never gotten the chance otherwise if the Nets didn't snag him quickly.

If you want better coaches, you have to empower them. Widespread use of a hard cap and non guaranteed contracts would fix much of the problems with head coaching in the NBA.

This season was never about wins and losses. When Perry traded Melo for Kanter & Doug he didn't do so thinking the team would be a playoff team. When he signed Jack and Sessions instead of spending money on a bigger name PG he did so knowing it would cost the team immediate wins. The signing of Hardaway Jr from Mills wasn't a moved to make playoffs this season.

When asked about the early season success the team was having when they were over 500. Perry was almost chuckling stating how they still have a long way to go. The early success was strictly a surprise due to not originally holding those expectations.

Mills, Perry, Jeff all imo know that this roster isn't a complimentary one and is only a transition one. If they make changes to the head coach due to not meeting expectations. Would be silly notion due to some of the off season decisions they made. Meaning they put the head coach in position to fail, he failed, and they fired him. That's not good management and would make you question their decision making. I don't see thing being the case though.

I like the idea of adding Herzonia and targeting a unique big like Jackson or Bamba. Maybe trade down with Clippers if things break a certain way. Target a Robert Williams & Chandler Hutchinson combination or something if they grade very well.

CrushAlot
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2/17/2018  10:42 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:What needs to happen following the all-star break is for Perry and Mills to have a sit down with Jeff and let him know that he's no longer being evaluated on wins and losses for the rest of the season, but is being evaluated on how much he gets out of developing the young players on the roster in expanded roles. This edict has to come directly from the FO, in order for there to be a significant change in the coaches philosophy. They have to be on the same page as far as what they're trying to accomplish for the rest of the season.


Well, it's an interesting sentiment but the only thing that is relevant to coaches at the pro level is if they are getting a contract extension or not, or if they are getting a bump in power ( i.e. from head coach to head coach/GM)

Public and/or private "votes of confidence" mean nothing. They happen all the time and dudes get fired anyway.

The Knicks are playing veterans because they couldn't trade them. They can't trade them because they offer poor market value. They offer poor market value because they were clearly poor market decisions when they were made.

A few times, Briggs has lashed out at me, saying he believes that I don't think anyone can make a trade ever in the NBA, because of the frequency in which I shoot down trade suggestions on this board. The reason I shoot them down is for exactly this kind of situation. A poor market decision that compounds into a larger problem over time.

Unfortunately ,when teams lose, there is generally a war between the GM and the head coach/manager. Because each wants to blame the other to save their own job. So if you dump Hornacek, you have to also dump Mills.

One of the reasons former players get so many chances in this league to coach is that the modern NBA player is basically an idiot. If you never played in the NBA before and are a head coach, then it's my excuse to not show you any kind of respect at all. Guys like Tony LaRussa and Bill Belichick never played in their leagues. LeBron James tried to get Erik Spolestra fired, which shows you how mind numbing the situation is with players and guaranteed contracts and the fallout of having players holding their franchises hostage.

Kenny Atkinson is a fantastic coach. But he would have never gotten the chance otherwise if the Nets didn't snag him quickly.

If you want better coaches, you have to empower them. Widespread use of a hard cap and non guaranteed contracts would fix much of the problems with head coaching in the NBA.

This season was never about wins and losses. When Perry traded Melo for Kanter & Doug he didn't do so thinking the team would be a playoff team. When he signed Jack and Sessions instead of spending money on a bigger name PG he did so knowing it would cost the team immediate wins. The signing of Hardaway Jr from Mills wasn't a moved to make playoffs this season.

When asked about the early season success the team was having when they were over 500. Perry was almost chuckling stating how they still have a long way to go. The early success was strictly a surprise due to not originally holding those expectations.

Mills, Perry, Jeff all imo know that this roster isn't a complimentary one and is only a transition one. If they make changes to the head coach due to not meeting expectations. Would be silly notion due to some of the off season decisions they made. Meaning they put the head coach in position to fail, he failed, and they fired him. That's not good management and would make you question their decision making. I don't see thing being the case though.

I like the idea of adding Herzonia and targeting a unique big like Jackson or Bamba. Maybe trade down with Clippers if things break a certain way. Target a Robert Williams & Chandler Hutchinson combination or something if they grade very well.

Good points and. I generally agree. However, Jeff isn't Perry or Mills coach. He is Jackson's coach. The decision to keep Jeff and go with continuity may have been made in part because this was not a season where the Knicks would win. If Jeff was super impressive maybe he gets another year. I don't think he has been that impressive. As someone else pointed out, the team doesn't have an identity. The nets with Atkinson do have an identity. Maybe Jeff is adjusting the Knicks style of play to the roster but ideally you want a coach and gm with the same vision so the gm can get players that fit the system the coach is running. The nets are doing that.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
Nalod
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2/17/2018  12:33 PM
IM not sure this teams youthful core is complete enough to have its identity.
I’d say when GSW got its core together in part JAX was canned because the team was one thing, he was another.
KP as the man 50 games is still a work in progress. Also is he a 4 or 5 in two years?
what s Frank in two or three years? How will his body mature and fill out? I know some of you can’t see this, and neither can I but I leave the door open. We will have a top 10 pick this year.
Thus when we read “change for change is not iprovement” then making a change here is about that.
I think you build a team with an intent but then make a change whe the team’s character is a bit more apparent.
This is just one way of doing things. ONe can do a brad Stevens thing and run with it. Imagine the NY market being patient with a young coach? That’s how you build. Could Hornacek still learn and be a better coach year in and year out? Former low draft pick who rose to become an allstar and great player. Paid his dues as assistant coach. We taint him because he was Phils pick? PHil was a shytty exec but a great coach.
Horny is from the Sloan tree. Is that good enough for some of you who want that kind of thing?
Me, I give Horny a two year extension. If he proves to not be our guy then fire him. But he as not been here long enough with continued roster to declare him bad. How many coaches are too many? Money? so we pay him. Not our money and its not on our cap. Dolan paid Phil 24mil then fired him. No problem.
You don't show a fool a job half done!
newyorknewyork
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2/17/2018  1:02 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:What needs to happen following the all-star break is for Perry and Mills to have a sit down with Jeff and let him know that he's no longer being evaluated on wins and losses for the rest of the season, but is being evaluated on how much he gets out of developing the young players on the roster in expanded roles. This edict has to come directly from the FO, in order for there to be a significant change in the coaches philosophy. They have to be on the same page as far as what they're trying to accomplish for the rest of the season.


Well, it's an interesting sentiment but the only thing that is relevant to coaches at the pro level is if they are getting a contract extension or not, or if they are getting a bump in power ( i.e. from head coach to head coach/GM)

Public and/or private "votes of confidence" mean nothing. They happen all the time and dudes get fired anyway.

The Knicks are playing veterans because they couldn't trade them. They can't trade them because they offer poor market value. They offer poor market value because they were clearly poor market decisions when they were made.

A few times, Briggs has lashed out at me, saying he believes that I don't think anyone can make a trade ever in the NBA, because of the frequency in which I shoot down trade suggestions on this board. The reason I shoot them down is for exactly this kind of situation. A poor market decision that compounds into a larger problem over time.

Unfortunately ,when teams lose, there is generally a war between the GM and the head coach/manager. Because each wants to blame the other to save their own job. So if you dump Hornacek, you have to also dump Mills.

One of the reasons former players get so many chances in this league to coach is that the modern NBA player is basically an idiot. If you never played in the NBA before and are a head coach, then it's my excuse to not show you any kind of respect at all. Guys like Tony LaRussa and Bill Belichick never played in their leagues. LeBron James tried to get Erik Spolestra fired, which shows you how mind numbing the situation is with players and guaranteed contracts and the fallout of having players holding their franchises hostage.

Kenny Atkinson is a fantastic coach. But he would have never gotten the chance otherwise if the Nets didn't snag him quickly.

If you want better coaches, you have to empower them. Widespread use of a hard cap and non guaranteed contracts would fix much of the problems with head coaching in the NBA.

This season was never about wins and losses. When Perry traded Melo for Kanter & Doug he didn't do so thinking the team would be a playoff team. When he signed Jack and Sessions instead of spending money on a bigger name PG he did so knowing it would cost the team immediate wins. The signing of Hardaway Jr from Mills wasn't a moved to make playoffs this season.

When asked about the early season success the team was having when they were over 500. Perry was almost chuckling stating how they still have a long way to go. The early success was strictly a surprise due to not originally holding those expectations.

Mills, Perry, Jeff all imo know that this roster isn't a complimentary one and is only a transition one. If they make changes to the head coach due to not meeting expectations. Would be silly notion due to some of the off season decisions they made. Meaning they put the head coach in position to fail, he failed, and they fired him. That's not good management and would make you question their decision making. I don't see thing being the case though.

I like the idea of adding Herzonia and targeting a unique big like Jackson or Bamba. Maybe trade down with Clippers if things break a certain way. Target a Robert Williams & Chandler Hutchinson combination or something if they grade very well.

Good points and. I generally agree. However, Jeff isn't Perry or Mills coach. He is Jackson's coach. The decision to keep Jeff and go with continuity may have been made in part because this was not a season where the Knicks would win. If Jeff was super impressive maybe he gets another year. I don't think he has been that impressive. As someone else pointed out, the team doesn't have an identity. The nets with Atkinson do have an identity. Maybe Jeff is adjusting the Knicks style of play to the roster but ideally you want a coach and gm with the same vision so the gm can get players that fit the system the coach is running. The nets are doing that.

IMO dont feel it's fair for him. Because we had Lee at SG. By signing Thjr instead of a real SF Jeff was put at a disadvantage. If Hardaway was a 6'8 SF who get 6-8rebs and defended the bigger stronger players well then we probably would be a 500. Team. I understand the move for the long term which is why it shouldnt effect Jeff for the short term. By signing Sessions and Jack as place holders Jeff was again put at a disadvantage. With a Lee, and Hardaway wing rotation you need to push the pace a to take advantage of the speed. Yet we have Jack and Kanter who utilize slower pace. So we can't push the tempo and when we slow down the tempo we are at a disadvantage on the wing regardless.


With Jack, Hardaway/Lee at SF and Kanter at center we have defensive liabilities at 3 positions depending on the matchup.

Offensively we lack ideal ball movement. Kanter & KP have been very black hole-ish. Yet the only way to maximize the Lee, Hardaway, Jack backcourt and wing would be to feed 3 point shooters at a crazy high and efficient rate. Created by our gifted offensive big men in Kanter and KP and even Beas.

We dont have a strong enough defense for the slower pace with black hole Bigs. Now if we were an elite defensive team that beat teams up in the paint methodically like Memphis or Spurs then it would work. But the players we have aren't built for that.

GustavBahler
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2/17/2018  1:03 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

I see your point, however playing Jack extended minutes doesn't help anything. Playing Kanter and KOQ over Willy was fine and honestly I would have done the same. My only gripe is Jack getting extended minutes. Both Frank and Trey seems to have been doing what is asked of them. Nixluva has made some excellent points about getting Frank in situations that would put him in a better position to succeed but Horny has not done that.

Mudiay actually needs to see what Jack is doing to help him develop. I suspect Jack will be shut down ater a while.

I remember Nixluva talking about putting Frank in a better spot to succeed, but on the flip side, Burke and Mudiay don't seem to have a problem coming off the street and succeeding here. I'm not comfortable altering the game so much just so Frank can succeed. It's a team. I don't want anyone getting special treatment just so that one player can shine. That's just not the right way to go about it. Guys have pride... you would lose a team like that

Mudiay and Burke already had the offensive skills to be an attacking guard. It's in their basketball upbringing. The AAU way. Frank has been playing pro ball where system is key. Where sharing the ball is put in the forefront.

Mudiay and Burke also doesn't have the defensive skills that Frank has. They are all even in my book.

I am not saying special treatment but to develop somebody you need to put them in the best position to succeed. This means also putting Mudiay and Burke in the best position to succeed. While their offensive output has been more than ok their defensive liabilities needs to be corrected.

So its not just Frank that needs to be coached correctly but so does the 2 other youngins.

Dont believe you need to play AAU ball to know when to look for your own shot more.

Other PGs have come to the US from abroad who wont hesitate to drive when they have the lane. The more games Frank plays in this league (and continues to defer) the less that explanation makes sense.

jazz74
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2/17/2018  4:02 PM
i was thinking the same thing. he realized when porzingis went down, his job security was out the window. he has to coach for his next job so he has to make these players competitive. however, the knicks organization would rather put their young players into the fire and see what they can do. i am for the latter of course. we need to plan for the next few years. starts with finding out if these young players are keepers particularly ntilikina and mudiay. many bad games but the key is for them to get better. our player development hasnt been good since walsh left so here is our chance for them to earn their pay. this will mean more ping pong balls. we need to get the top 5 pick and we have a great shot to do it though the number of games are dwindling. i hate to say it but hornecek should be fired at the end of the season. even before kp went down, he struggled to straighten out this team two years in a row this time of year. we need mjax, fizdale or kidd in that order of importance.
meloshouldgo
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2/17/2018  4:15 PM
So being horny is a conundrum now?
I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
NYKBocker
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2/17/2018  5:38 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:So being horny is a conundrum now?

Horny Conundrum...

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