someone who's a real worker with coaching skills. not a name.

NYKBocker wrote:Would really love JVG

As much as I love JVG, he is not playing young players.. but the team would be much more prepared

EnySpree wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

Excellent point, but it still compromises JH status, meaning, he doesn't have the experience to develop young players.

EnySpree wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

I see your point, however playing Jack extended minutes doesn't help anything. Playing Kanter and KOQ over Willy was fine and honestly I would have done the same. My only gripe is Jack getting extended minutes. Both Frank and Trey seems to have been doing what is asked of them. Nixluva has made some excellent points about getting Frank in situations that would put him in a better position to succeed but Horny has not done that.

Mudiay actually needs to see what Jack is doing to help him develop. I suspect Jack will be shut down ater a while.

I remember Nixluva talking about putting Frank in a better spot to succeed, but on the flip side, Burke and Mudiay don't seem to have a problem coming off the street and succeeding here. I'm not comfortable altering the game so much just so Frank can succeed. It's a team. I don't want anyone getting special treatment just so that one player can shine. That's just not the right way to go about it. Guys have pride... you would lose a team like that

Mudiay and Burke already had the offensive skills to be an attacking guard. It's in their basketball upbringing. The AAU way. Frank has been playing pro ball where system is key. Where sharing the ball is put in the forefront.

Mudiay and Burke also doesn't have the defensive skills that Frank has. They are all even in my book.

I am not saying special treatment but to develop somebody you need to put them in the best position to succeed. This means also putting Mudiay and Burke in the best position to succeed. While their offensive output has been more than ok their defensive liabilities needs to be corrected.

So its not just Frank that needs to be coached correctly but so does the 2 other youngins.

NYKBocker wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

I see your point, however playing Jack extended minutes doesn't help anything. Playing Kanter and KOQ over Willy was fine and honestly I would have done the same. My only gripe is Jack getting extended minutes. Both Frank and Trey seems to have been doing what is asked of them. Nixluva has made some excellent points about getting Frank in situations that would put him in a better position to succeed but Horny has not done that.

Mudiay actually needs to see what Jack is doing to help him develop. I suspect Jack will be shut down ater a while.

I remember Nixluva talking about putting Frank in a better spot to succeed, but on the flip side, Burke and Mudiay don't seem to have a problem coming off the street and succeeding here. I'm not comfortable altering the game so much just so Frank can succeed. It's a team. I don't want anyone getting special treatment just so that one player can shine. That's just not the right way to go about it. Guys have pride... you would lose a team like that

Mudiay and Burke already had the offensive skills to be an attacking guard. It's in their basketball upbringing. The AAU way. Frank has been playing pro ball where system is key. Where sharing the ball is put in the forefront.

Mudiay and Burke also doesn't have the defensive skills that Frank has. They are all even in my book.

I am not saying special treatment but to develop somebody you need to put them in the best position to succeed. This means also putting Mudiay and Burke in the best position to succeed. While their offensive output has been more than ok their defensive liabilities needs to be corrected.

So its not just Frank that needs to be coached correctly but so does the 2 other youngins.

But it's not to degree that Frank needs. Mudiay can learn to function in defensive schemes and get better making decisions. He had no issues being aggressive and creative though he needs to clean up his handle. Frank is scared to death of shooting the ball unless he's open. He won't drive unless he has a clear lane. He keeps jamming passes inside when he clearly has a layup. He keeps picking up his dribble... as point guard you just can't do that. He's getting stripped and pushed back forcing him to make step back dribbles. He's not aggressive or assertive. He doesn't even look like he's having fun lol. I mean im not even being overly critical... that's what's happening with Frank.

nykshaknbake wrote:You have to wait until the end of the season. Otherwise,it's Kurt rabid or some unknown assistant who will be way over their heads. If it's someone credible (like mark jackson)they should have the benefit if a full training camp and a roster of players that are at least retained through the year. Right now the roster come start of next season maybe quite different.

whats the point of firing him he helps us lose

TripleThreat wrote:

SocraticBallin22 wrote:What needs to happen following the all-star break is for Perry and Mills to have a sit down with Jeff and let him know that he's no longer being evaluated on wins and losses for the rest of the season, but is being evaluated on how much he gets out of developing the young players on the roster in expanded roles. This edict has to come directly from the FO, in order for there to be a significant change in the coaches philosophy. They have to be on the same page as far as what they're trying to accomplish for the rest of the season.

Well, it's an interesting sentiment but the only thing that is relevant to coaches at the pro level is if they are getting a contract extension or not, or if they are getting a bump in power ( i.e. from head coach to head coach/GM)

Public and/or private "votes of confidence" mean nothing. They happen all the time and dudes get fired anyway.

The Knicks are playing veterans because they couldn't trade them. They can't trade them because they offer poor market value. They offer poor market value because they were clearly poor market decisions when they were made.

A few times, Briggs has lashed out at me, saying he believes that I don't think anyone can make a trade ever in the NBA, because of the frequency in which I shoot down trade suggestions on this board. The reason I shoot them down is for exactly this kind of situation. A poor market decision that compounds into a larger problem over time.

Unfortunately ,when teams lose, there is generally a war between the GM and the head coach/manager. Because each wants to blame the other to save their own job. So if you dump Hornacek, you have to also dump Mills.

One of the reasons former players get so many chances in this league to coach is that the modern NBA player is basically an idiot. If you never played in the NBA before and are a head coach, then it's my excuse to not show you any kind of respect at all. Guys like Tony LaRussa and Bill Belichick never played in their leagues. LeBron James tried to get Erik Spolestra fired, which shows you how mind numbing the situation is with players and guaranteed contracts and the fallout of having players holding their franchises hostage.

Kenny Atkinson is a fantastic coach. But he would have never gotten the chance otherwise if the Nets didn't snag him quickly.

If you want better coaches, you have to empower them. Widespread use of a hard cap and non guaranteed contracts would fix much of the problems with head coaching in the NBA.

This season was never about wins and losses. When Perry traded Melo for Kanter & Doug he didn't do so thinking the team would be a playoff team. When he signed Jack and Sessions instead of spending money on a bigger name PG he did so knowing it would cost the team immediate wins. The signing of Hardaway Jr from Mills wasn't a moved to make playoffs this season.

When asked about the early season success the team was having when they were over 500. Perry was almost chuckling stating how they still have a long way to go. The early success was strictly a surprise due to not originally holding those expectations.

Mills, Perry, Jeff all imo know that this roster isn't a complimentary one and is only a transition one. If they make changes to the head coach due to not meeting expectations. Would be silly notion due to some of the off season decisions they made. Meaning they put the head coach in position to fail, he failed, and they fired him. That's not good management and would make you question their decision making. I don't see thing being the case though.

I like the idea of adding Herzonia and targeting a unique big like Jackson or Bamba. Maybe trade down with Clippers if things break a certain way. Target a Robert Williams & Chandler Hutchinson combination or something if they grade very well.

NYKBocker wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

I see your point, however playing Jack extended minutes doesn't help anything. Playing Kanter and KOQ over Willy was fine and honestly I would have done the same. My only gripe is Jack getting extended minutes. Both Frank and Trey seems to have been doing what is asked of them. Nixluva has made some excellent points about getting Frank in situations that would put him in a better position to succeed but Horny has not done that.

Mudiay actually needs to see what Jack is doing to help him develop. I suspect Jack will be shut down ater a while.

I remember Nixluva talking about putting Frank in a better spot to succeed, but on the flip side, Burke and Mudiay don't seem to have a problem coming off the street and succeeding here. I'm not comfortable altering the game so much just so Frank can succeed. It's a team. I don't want anyone getting special treatment just so that one player can shine. That's just not the right way to go about it. Guys have pride... you would lose a team like that

Mudiay and Burke already had the offensive skills to be an attacking guard. It's in their basketball upbringing. The AAU way. Frank has been playing pro ball where system is key. Where sharing the ball is put in the forefront.

Mudiay and Burke also doesn't have the defensive skills that Frank has. They are all even in my book.

I am not saying special treatment but to develop somebody you need to put them in the best position to succeed. This means also putting Mudiay and Burke in the best position to succeed. While their offensive output has been more than ok their defensive liabilities needs to be corrected.

So its not just Frank that needs to be coached correctly but so does the 2 other youngins.

Dont believe you need to play AAU ball to know when to look for your own shot more.

Other PGs have come to the US from abroad who wont hesitate to drive when they have the lane. The more games Frank plays in this league (and continues to defer) the less that explanation makes sense.