fishmike wrote:

JesseDark wrote:What is so maddening about this is OUR elected officials are running around with their heads in the sand. Banning certain assault rifles is what will eliminate the problem. Too many cowards in our congress.

12 killed, 21 injured in the Columbine attack. No assault rifles. Shotgun and handguns.

By the way there have been between 5-10 million AR-15 rifles sold in the US. What will banning sale of those do? What is your logistical approach to address that cache of weapons laying around?

BTW... AR-15 is EASIER to buy than a handgun.

No lets just let's sit around for the next mass murder and send out the "thoughts and prays" again. The points use raise just deflect form the problem. Weapons that are made for war don't belong in society no more than tanks or fighter jets.

JesseDark wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JesseDark wrote:What is so maddening about this is OUR elected officials are running around with their heads in the sand. Banning certain assault rifles is what will eliminate the problem. Too many cowards in our congress.

12 killed, 21 injured in the Columbine attack. No assault rifles. Shotgun and handguns.

By the way there have been between 5-10 million AR-15 rifles sold in the US. What will banning sale of those do? What is your logistical approach to address that cache of weapons laying around?

BTW... AR-15 is EASIER to buy than a handgun.

No lets just let's sit around for the next mass murder and send out the "thoughts and prays" again. The points use raise just deflect form the problem. Weapons that are made for war don't belong in society no more than tanks or fighter jets.

All the guns used for colombine were designed for home defense or hunting.

You do understand school shootings are a product of our media culture and social networking?

Again.. im not advocating inaction. I just haven't heard anything proposed that has a whiff of making a difference or that has any logistical plausibility

People have been talking about this for a long time. Why do you think it hasn't changed much?

But this is why discussions disintegrate. When you start calling people ignorant and accusing them of knee jerk reactions. The majority of the country at one time owned and wanted slaves, that was a much more deeply rooted part of the culture and it was the law. Someone then started to see the error in their ways because a small minority at first started pushing back on the establishment ideology. Then it gained momentum and became a movement. Yes the other side won't give up without a fight but it doesn't have to be "fought" with weapons.

I guess MLK, didn't get the memo that culture cannot be changed, because he must have sounded pretty stupid, right?

No one said it's going to be easy or the other side can be sweet talked or will be willing to cave in. What I am asking for is movement to start the fight and to take it to the other side. This is not a knee jerk reaction. I don't have a colleague charged out plan to convince the other side. I think it's stupid to think like that.

Culture change is hard but you need an idea to fight another idea. Our side hadn't articulated a common idea or a goal. Incremental hacking at something else is not an idea. It's why nothing ever changes. Is why we keep having the discussion on the NRA's terms and context.

No you start a movement by focusing on what seems impossible, it takes faith, it takes trust and it takes a village. Then over time it evolves naturally into a movement that CAN change the world. But you can't chart it's course ahead of time or define how it will work. You can only set it up and let it run its own course.

I am not an idealist, anyone who reads my posts here will see a heavy dose of cynicism. But I can absolutely guarantee we are not going to win the fight against guns by incremental progress and dicking around with mental health issues.

Soon Americans will start to buy helmets and bulletproof vests to go to school and supermarket

Juliano wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:But I can absolutely guarantee we are not going to win the fight against guns by incremental progress and dicking around with mental health issues.

You are not going to win it, period. From the outside, it looks like americans hold the constitution as some kind of divine document that cannot be altered, even if some parts are clearly outdated. The second amendment is obsolete, as is electoral college but for a politician to say so would be career suicide.

It has never ceased to amaze me that a country built by pioneers, which has boldness and ability to embrace new things deeply rooted in its DNA (much more than us europeans, who often look at new things with interest but also a bit of skepticism) finds it so difficult to deal with the anachronisms of its founder's texts.

Firearm homicides and drunk driving fatalities are about the same 3(ish)/per 100k

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:My phone is not letting me "quote" the last post.

But this is why discussions disintegrate. When you start calling people ignorant and accusing them of knee jerk reactions. The majority of the country at one time owned and wanted slaves, that was a much more deeply rooted part of the culture and it was the law. Someone then started to see the error in their ways because a small minority at first started pushing back on the establishment ideology. Then it gained momentum and became a movement. Yes the other side won't give up without a fight but it doesn't have to be "fought" with weapons.

I guess MLK, didn't get the memo that culture cannot be changed, because he must have sounded pretty stupid, right?

No one said it's going to be easy or the other side can be sweet talked or will be willing to cave in. What I am asking for is movement to start the fight and to take it to the other side. This is not a knee jerk reaction. I don't have a colleague charged out plan to convince the other side. I think it's stupid to think like that.

Culture change is hard but you need an idea to fight another idea. Our side hadn't articulated a common idea or a goal. Incremental hacking at something else is not an idea. It's why nothing ever changes. Is why we keep having the discussion on the NRA's terms and context.

No you start a movement by focusing on what seems impossible, it takes faith, it takes trust and it takes a village. Then over time it evolves naturally into a movement that CAN change the world. But you can't chart it's course ahead of time or define how it will work. You can only set it up and let it run its own course.

I am not an idealist, anyone who reads my posts here will see a heavy dose of cynicism. But I can absolutely guarantee we are not going to win the fight against guns by incremental progress and dicking around with mental health issues.

ignorance is a lack of knowledge and information. Thats from Webster.
knee-jerk
1.(of a response) automatic and unthinking.
"a knee-jerk reaction"
synonyms: impulsive, automatic, spontaneous, instinctive, mechanical, unthinking, hasty, rash, reckless, impetuous, precipitate

I really have not heard anything but the above. That is meant as a challenge. Not as an attack.

I cant think of something more different than civil rights. Throwing MLK out there an example of the above.

Are guns responsible for infringing on the constitutional rights of 18 million people? I am sorry but comparing gun control to civil rights strikes me as slight to the civil right movement. One was the (and is) repressing the rights of American citizens. Civil rights is about fighting for the equality the constitution promises. How are you correlating that to gun control?

Also all the evidence points to the fact that most gun owners are responsible. Who is the enemy here? When you talk about changing the culture who are you even talking about?

Gudris wrote:

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:My phone is not letting me "quote" the last post.

But this is why discussions disintegrate. When you start calling people ignorant and accusing them of knee jerk reactions. The majority of the country at one time owned and wanted slaves, that was a much more deeply rooted part of the culture and it was the law. Someone then started to see the error in their ways because a small minority at first started pushing back on the establishment ideology. Then it gained momentum and became a movement. Yes the other side won't give up without a fight but it doesn't have to be "fought" with weapons.

I guess MLK, didn't get the memo that culture cannot be changed, because he must have sounded pretty stupid, right?

No one said it's going to be easy or the other side can be sweet talked or will be willing to cave in. What I am asking for is movement to start the fight and to take it to the other side. This is not a knee jerk reaction. I don't have a colleague charged out plan to convince the other side. I think it's stupid to think like that.

Culture change is hard but you need an idea to fight another idea. Our side hadn't articulated a common idea or a goal. Incremental hacking at something else is not an idea. It's why nothing ever changes. Is why we keep having the discussion on the NRA's terms and context.

No you start a movement by focusing on what seems impossible, it takes faith, it takes trust and it takes a village. Then over time it evolves naturally into a movement that CAN change the world. But you can't chart it's course ahead of time or define how it will work. You can only set it up and let it run its own course.

I am not an idealist, anyone who reads my posts here will see a heavy dose of cynicism. But I can absolutely guarantee we are not going to win the fight against guns by incremental progress and dicking around with mental health issues.

ignorance is a lack of knowledge and information. Thats from Webster.
knee-jerk
1.(of a response) automatic and unthinking.
"a knee-jerk reaction"
synonyms: impulsive, automatic, spontaneous, instinctive, mechanical, unthinking, hasty, rash, reckless, impetuous, precipitate

I really have not heard anything but the above. That is meant as a challenge. Not as an attack.

I cant think of something more different than civil rights. Throwing MLK out there an example of the above.

Are guns responsible for infringing on the constitutional rights of 18 million people? I am sorry but comparing gun control to civil rights strikes me as slight to the civil right movement. One was the (and is) repressing the rights of American citizens. Civil rights is about fighting for the equality the constitution promises. How are you correlating that to gun control?

Also all the evidence points to the fact that most gun owners are responsible. Who is the enemy here? When you talk about changing the culture who are you even talking about?

Everyone who wants to have a gun is a potential murderer, if you want to have a gun you want to shoot somebody, there is no reason why a mentally healthy person would want to own a gun.

fishmike wrote:
you are making my point. You are working under the assumption that its broken when half dont think it is. Also taking shots at the constitution isnt going to yield good discussion either.

Firearm homicides and drunk driving fatalities are about the same 3(ish)/per 100k

I indeed believe that no citizen should be allowed to bear firearms, they should be exclusive to state or federal law enforcement.

I also understand that this will not change, and the same discussion will pop up again in 6 months when the next mass shooting occurs.

fishmike wrote:

Gudris wrote:

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:My phone is not letting me "quote" the last post.

But this is why discussions disintegrate. When you start calling people ignorant and accusing them of knee jerk reactions. The majority of the country at one time owned and wanted slaves, that was a much more deeply rooted part of the culture and it was the law. Someone then started to see the error in their ways because a small minority at first started pushing back on the establishment ideology. Then it gained momentum and became a movement. Yes the other side won't give up without a fight but it doesn't have to be "fought" with weapons.

I guess MLK, didn't get the memo that culture cannot be changed, because he must have sounded pretty stupid, right?

No one said it's going to be easy or the other side can be sweet talked or will be willing to cave in. What I am asking for is movement to start the fight and to take it to the other side. This is not a knee jerk reaction. I don't have a colleague charged out plan to convince the other side. I think it's stupid to think like that.

Culture change is hard but you need an idea to fight another idea. Our side hadn't articulated a common idea or a goal. Incremental hacking at something else is not an idea. It's why nothing ever changes. Is why we keep having the discussion on the NRA's terms and context.

No you start a movement by focusing on what seems impossible, it takes faith, it takes trust and it takes a village. Then over time it evolves naturally into a movement that CAN change the world. But you can't chart it's course ahead of time or define how it will work. You can only set it up and let it run its own course.

I am not an idealist, anyone who reads my posts here will see a heavy dose of cynicism. But I can absolutely guarantee we are not going to win the fight against guns by incremental progress and dicking around with mental health issues.

ignorance is a lack of knowledge and information. Thats from Webster.
knee-jerk
1.(of a response) automatic and unthinking.
"a knee-jerk reaction"
synonyms: impulsive, automatic, spontaneous, instinctive, mechanical, unthinking, hasty, rash, reckless, impetuous, precipitate

I really have not heard anything but the above. That is meant as a challenge. Not as an attack.

I cant think of something more different than civil rights. Throwing MLK out there an example of the above.

Are guns responsible for infringing on the constitutional rights of 18 million people? I am sorry but comparing gun control to civil rights strikes me as slight to the civil right movement. One was the (and is) repressing the rights of American citizens. Civil rights is about fighting for the equality the constitution promises. How are you correlating that to gun control?

Also all the evidence points to the fact that most gun owners are responsible. Who is the enemy here? When you talk about changing the culture who are you even talking about?

Everyone who wants to have a gun is a potential murderer, if you want to have a gun you want to shoot somebody, there is no reason why a mentally healthy person would want to own a gun.

That is your opinion and that level of ignorance fuels the divide. I can think of 100 reasons a mentally healthy person would want to own a gun. Ignorance 101.

True. Im in favor of an AR ban, but there are still reasons unfortunately to own a firearm in this country.

One of my best friends was murdered by a career criminal who had threatened him and another person. Didnt take the threat seriously, my friend and another person were shot dead soon after.

Could be a woman who is leaving a serial abuser, could be a member of a minority group being threatened by bigots. An elderly person tired of being robbed. Unfortunately there are valid reasons in this country to own a firearm.

Wish it werent the case.

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Gudris wrote:

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:My phone is not letting me "quote" the last post.

But this is why discussions disintegrate. When you start calling people ignorant and accusing them of knee jerk reactions. The majority of the country at one time owned and wanted slaves, that was a much more deeply rooted part of the culture and it was the law. Someone then started to see the error in their ways because a small minority at first started pushing back on the establishment ideology. Then it gained momentum and became a movement. Yes the other side won't give up without a fight but it doesn't have to be "fought" with weapons.

I guess MLK, didn't get the memo that culture cannot be changed, because he must have sounded pretty stupid, right?

No one said it's going to be easy or the other side can be sweet talked or will be willing to cave in. What I am asking for is movement to start the fight and to take it to the other side. This is not a knee jerk reaction. I don't have a colleague charged out plan to convince the other side. I think it's stupid to think like that.

Culture change is hard but you need an idea to fight another idea. Our side hadn't articulated a common idea or a goal. Incremental hacking at something else is not an idea. It's why nothing ever changes. Is why we keep having the discussion on the NRA's terms and context.

No you start a movement by focusing on what seems impossible, it takes faith, it takes trust and it takes a village. Then over time it evolves naturally into a movement that CAN change the world. But you can't chart it's course ahead of time or define how it will work. You can only set it up and let it run its own course.

I am not an idealist, anyone who reads my posts here will see a heavy dose of cynicism. But I can absolutely guarantee we are not going to win the fight against guns by incremental progress and dicking around with mental health issues.

ignorance is a lack of knowledge and information. Thats from Webster.
knee-jerk
1.(of a response) automatic and unthinking.
"a knee-jerk reaction"
synonyms: impulsive, automatic, spontaneous, instinctive, mechanical, unthinking, hasty, rash, reckless, impetuous, precipitate

I really have not heard anything but the above. That is meant as a challenge. Not as an attack.

I cant think of something more different than civil rights. Throwing MLK out there an example of the above.

Are guns responsible for infringing on the constitutional rights of 18 million people? I am sorry but comparing gun control to civil rights strikes me as slight to the civil right movement. One was the (and is) repressing the rights of American citizens. Civil rights is about fighting for the equality the constitution promises. How are you correlating that to gun control?

Also all the evidence points to the fact that most gun owners are responsible. Who is the enemy here? When you talk about changing the culture who are you even talking about?

Everyone who wants to have a gun is a potential murderer, if you want to have a gun you want to shoot somebody, there is no reason why a mentally healthy person would want to own a gun.

That is your opinion and that level of ignorance fuels the divide. I can think of 100 reasons a mentally healthy person would want to own a gun. Ignorance 101.

True. Im in favor of an AR ban, but there are still reasons unfortunately to own a firearm in this country.

One of my best friends was murdered by a career criminal who had threatened him and another person. Didnt take the threat seriously, my friend and another person were shot dead soon after.

Could be a woman who is leaving a serial abuser, could be a member of a minority group being threatened by bigots. An elderly person tired of being robbed. Unfortunately there are valid reasons in this country to own a firearm.

Wish it werent the case.

I dont have an issue with shotguns or rifles. Those are good tools for home defense and hunting.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Gudris wrote:

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:My phone is not letting me "quote" the last post.

But this is why discussions disintegrate. When you start calling people ignorant and accusing them of knee jerk reactions. The majority of the country at one time owned and wanted slaves, that was a much more deeply rooted part of the culture and it was the law. Someone then started to see the error in their ways because a small minority at first started pushing back on the establishment ideology. Then it gained momentum and became a movement. Yes the other side won't give up without a fight but it doesn't have to be "fought" with weapons.

I guess MLK, didn't get the memo that culture cannot be changed, because he must have sounded pretty stupid, right?

No one said it's going to be easy or the other side can be sweet talked or will be willing to cave in. What I am asking for is movement to start the fight and to take it to the other side. This is not a knee jerk reaction. I don't have a colleague charged out plan to convince the other side. I think it's stupid to think like that.

Culture change is hard but you need an idea to fight another idea. Our side hadn't articulated a common idea or a goal. Incremental hacking at something else is not an idea. It's why nothing ever changes. Is why we keep having the discussion on the NRA's terms and context.

No you start a movement by focusing on what seems impossible, it takes faith, it takes trust and it takes a village. Then over time it evolves naturally into a movement that CAN change the world. But you can't chart it's course ahead of time or define how it will work. You can only set it up and let it run its own course.

I am not an idealist, anyone who reads my posts here will see a heavy dose of cynicism. But I can absolutely guarantee we are not going to win the fight against guns by incremental progress and dicking around with mental health issues.

ignorance is a lack of knowledge and information. Thats from Webster.
knee-jerk
1.(of a response) automatic and unthinking.
"a knee-jerk reaction"
synonyms: impulsive, automatic, spontaneous, instinctive, mechanical, unthinking, hasty, rash, reckless, impetuous, precipitate

I really have not heard anything but the above. That is meant as a challenge. Not as an attack.

I cant think of something more different than civil rights. Throwing MLK out there an example of the above.

Are guns responsible for infringing on the constitutional rights of 18 million people? I am sorry but comparing gun control to civil rights strikes me as slight to the civil right movement. One was the (and is) repressing the rights of American citizens. Civil rights is about fighting for the equality the constitution promises. How are you correlating that to gun control?

Also all the evidence points to the fact that most gun owners are responsible. Who is the enemy here? When you talk about changing the culture who are you even talking about?

Everyone who wants to have a gun is a potential murderer, if you want to have a gun you want to shoot somebody, there is no reason why a mentally healthy person would want to own a gun.

That is your opinion and that level of ignorance fuels the divide. I can think of 100 reasons a mentally healthy person would want to own a gun. Ignorance 101.

True. Im in favor of an AR ban, but there are still reasons unfortunately to own a firearm in this country.

One of my best friends was murdered by a career criminal who had threatened him and another person. Didnt take the threat seriously, my friend and another person were shot dead soon after.

Could be a woman who is leaving a serial abuser, could be a member of a minority group being threatened by bigots. An elderly person tired of being robbed. Unfortunately there are valid reasons in this country to own a firearm.

Wish it werent the case.

It could also simply be you live in a rural area where police response time is going to be 20 minutes. I have fired several types of guns. I have never owned one and have no plans to. However if I lived in a rural area and I had property I would at least own a shotgun I could protect my land with. Bears, coyotes, wolves, rock cats... when something is killing your pets or your chickens are you going out there with a stick and harsh language? When your neighbors are miles away and there is a knock on your door at night you just trust who's on the other side? Basic home defense is the first and foremost selling point, and its a fair and valid one. That doesnt including hunting.

I dont have an issue with shotguns or rifles. Those are good tools for home defense and hunting.

Thats my case. Im way out in the country. Compared to most of my neighbors, Im lightly armed. Dont need an arsenal, or want one. Not storming the beaches at Normandy.