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Frank the Blank
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nixluva
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2/14/2018  10:13 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:Frank is RAW Offensively but we knew that. It was always going to take time for Frank to develop but the reason why Frank is still a +1 on the year in On/Off Court is his Defense. Frank is that good and it’s going right over a LOT of fans heads! Frank is 90th Percentile in PnR Defense as a Rookie! When he’s on the floor with KP who is a great rim protector it makes the Knicks Defense a LOT better.

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&sort=Percentile&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*40:PossG*GE*3

I think Nalod called him an elite defender. Based on the eye test I thought that was not accurate and I tried to find stats that might prove me wrong. I couldn't find anything. Nice find. I still think he has a long way to go. I also thought I saw stats that had his on off court plus minus as a negative. I will have to look again. I had ten minutes at work and was messing around.

Check out this defensive stat
http://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&sort=Percentile&dir=1

And this one
http://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&sort=TO&dir=1

And...
http://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive

You can change any variable and find something postitive on just about anyone.

Fact is, Nix is super optimistic and will do anything to keep it that way. And Frank IS a good defender, athletic and good team player. What he doesnt get is that Frank has as much chance of becoming MJ as becoming Cleanthony Early. So far he is tracking towards the latter. Yet others will prolong the possibility of him being a wasted pick by stating his age. The quetion those people cant answer is...WHY did we use an 8th pick on such a young question mark?? Thats the only argument here. NOT what will he turn out to be. Because NO ONE knows. And there is NO WAY anyone can say that his play this year is any clue that he will be more than just a role player.

Don’t know what you were trying to show with the stats you posted. SMH. You’re not understanding the proper use of stats. I can’t help you there.

As for what Frank has the potential to be it’s clear what the Knicks Scouts where looking at. Frank’s base is that of a top level defender who can pass. He’s only going to get stronger and more experienced. His jumper isn’t broken and the only thing holding him back is time put in and dedication which he’s shown he has plenty of dedication to getting better already.

Since Frank is only 19 they have plenty of time to allow for his development. Once again they knew he was raw offensively. They drafted him after evaluating him and believing he’s got excellent potential to improve. REAL SCOUTS are good at judging raw talent whereas most fans are NOT!

AUTOADVERT
Paris907
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2/14/2018  10:13 PM
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
EnySpree wrote:I'm just waiting for cats to be real and just say Frank sucks.... what you think he can be is irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't mean I'm saying he needs to be traded.... im saying he's terrible right now. That's a fact.

Terrible on offense, yes. But he's a good defensive player already. As opposed to many rookies that put up numbers, but they are empty numbers and they are also poor defensively. He's not as bad as his numbers show, compared to other rookies. 3pt shooting going up, defensive impact clearly there. Obviously he has a long way to go, but if you don't just focus on stats and him being invisible on offense at times, there's good stuff in there.

No need to bring up other players that actual got stats. Frank isn't even stats.... but Frank is better simply because he can play defense? Disregard how hard it is to average anything on the nba level. Those players suck. Frank isn't even on that level. You have to score more to win. You can't go 20 minutes in the nba and get no stats and poodle still say you are a good player because you can "play defense".... it's ridiculous. Frank needs to hear from us that he sucks. That should light a fire. It's just not acceptable

Do you think was good with that? You think Frank is happy with his game?

WHAT IS YOUR POINT DUDE, BESIDE JUSTIFYING EVERYTHING ON HIS AGE.

Do you think the knicks are developing frank and KP the right way?

Yes or no?.

I think it means Frank had some bad games. Eny is blown away no stats recorded. Its a hell of a thing.
Fish thinks Frank is likely upset about his game.
You think those who are not on fire about this should be and should blow it up. Storm the castle, loot the town, boo santa.
Nobody is happy, but at the same time its not like he is the worst rookie ever.

Guess he player: 72 games, 20 min per game, shot 45% (no 3pt), 65% from the line, avg 9pts per game. At age 22.
That's Clyde at age 22.
My point, in the past you let Rookies play, you let them learn and grow. Clyde was not clyde then. It happened.
Frank is unknown upside. It will happen or it won't. Nothing is certain. What some of us are preaching is fan patience.

I was about 13-14 when Clyde came up and I remember. He started by mid season and Red played him cause he could play D. Cazzie Russell was on that team, Dave Stallworth, Dick Barnett, Van Arsdale Bellamy and Komives. Phil arrived and Komives and Bellamy got traded for DeBusshre and Willis moved from FEd to Center. Frazier became Clyde ...

I’ve a story back them that none of you would ever believe about Clyde but... that will have to wait

Paris907
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2/14/2018  10:25 PM
I think he’s longer than Hill or BEVERLY obviously. His offense will improve gradually and yes he can pass. Look I wasn’t keen on Frank as a pick but he’s talented. What he needs is time and a shot of confidence. At times there is no offense and it hurts. He’s hit the wall and he’s far from home. Unlike EnY, I don’t need to ship the kid off to the French foreign legion.
nykshaknbake
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2/15/2018  7:39 AM
He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.
Uptown
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2/15/2018  9:37 AM
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

+ 1000....My biggest problem with this pick is there were better prospects at 8 that we could have gone with....The fact that Dolan waited until after the draft to fire phil was assinine...Perry should have been able to pick his own player, hence the fact that since he got here, he has been tyring to find pgs (Burke, Jack, Sessions, Mudiay) etc...

BigDaddyG
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2/15/2018  10:12 AM
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

Washington Wizards fans were saying similar things about Otto Porter two years ago. Now he's a Max player. It's way too early to tell if it's a bad pick.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
newyorknewyork
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2/15/2018  10:23 AM
Uptown wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

+ 1000....My biggest problem with this pick is there were better prospects at 8 that we could have gone with....The fact that Dolan waited until after the draft to fire phil was assinine...Perry should have been able to pick his own player, hence the fact that since he got here, he has been tyring to find pgs (Burke, Jack, Sessions, Mudiay) etc...

He has come off as very raw and lacking conditioning and physical maturity. He seems to have came out a year to early. Hopefully while he struggles mightily now, it speeds up his development process on the back end getting a year early on NBA experience and what he needs to do. First things first is conditioning and strength.

Even if you took the players that have produced numbers like Mitchell, Kuzma, Smith for early returns. If those 3 players were taken at 8-10 instead of Frank. From 11-30 all the same level prospects. Its just easier for bigs to produce earlier then guards. Nobody knows which of these players are going to really pop down the road.

Malik Monk was viewed as a top 10 prospect at the draft for his offensive craft and talent. Who many on UK clamored for. Who was dropping 40 point games in college. And he may be having just as bad or arguably a worse rookie yr then Frank.

Monk and Frank are very interesting parallels. Complete opposite type of games, Monk came from AAU, balled out in college as a freshman and is having a hard time translating to NBA his rookie yr. Wonder what the discussion would be if Monk was the pick? Since he fit in that box. But of course he will be ignored and hid in the closet because he isn't working out at the moment.

"Yo I'm a Knick!! Whhhaat" - RJ Barrett
fishmike
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2/15/2018  10:25 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

Washington Wizards fans were saying similar things about Otto Porter two years ago. Now he's a Max player. It's way too early to tell if it's a bad pick.

anyone who watched Porter in his rookie year would have EASILY been able to tell he was bust, just like you can see with Frank now. A 3rd pick in the draft should be better than 2ppg and 35% or whatever he shot. Porter was a bad pick because there were better players after him. Bla bla bla....
Negatives only motivate Frank. He's one of those. Another reason (among 500 others) I think he's going to be a good player in the league and a winning player.
GustavBahler
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2/15/2018  10:29 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/15/2018  10:32 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

Washington Wizards fans were saying similar things about Otto Porter two years ago. Now he's a Max player. It's way too early to tell if it's a bad pick.

Dont believe its unfair to say that while Frank might turn out to be a good player, the Knicks would have been better served drafting a more NBA ready player, considering our needs. And maybe taking Frank in the second round,if still there.

Baker was older, but he was undrafted. Cant really say that Frank's rookie season as the 8th pick, was remarkably better.

Also worth noting that the best move to the rim Frank made as a Knick was when he played off the ball. Id rather Frank turn to a good SG than one coach after another trying to prove they can turn Frank into a great starting PG.

Knixkik
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2/15/2018  10:35 AM
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

Way too early to tell. When will you guys learn? Can't judge a player's career this soon in the process. Again, elite defense and good 3pt shooter. Those are 2 skills that will prevent him from being a bad NBA player. They will keep him a rotation player for most of his career, thus, he won't be a bust. As far as the 8th pick, if he develops into a quality starter than that's 8th pick material. Most 8th picks don't become stars. Some of you guys are unbelievable. Judge the guy in a couple of years. Even then, he will still be only 21, but at least you will have a real sample size to go off of.

newyorknewyork
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2/15/2018  10:37 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

Washington Wizards fans were saying similar things about Otto Porter two years ago. Now he's a Max player. It's way too early to tell if it's a bad pick.

The draft is a crap shoot. Most gms draft based off the principals and identity they are looking to build. Magic GM came from Miluakee and he loves the idea of position less bball. So he drafted Issac to be a hybrid forward with Gordan moving to PF. They have Mario now playing SG-PF and same with Simmons who has the build to play 2-4. These are the principals which they build their team and mold their players.

He could have went with a PG. Knowing that Elfrid was in his final yr and its possible they would need his replacement due to his shooting woes. But he felt that hybrid forwards like Issac are harder to find then PG that can shoot. So went with the harder to find prospect for the long term.

Lakers wanted show time Lakers to come back so they drafted Lonzo. Utah loves defense so they moved up for Mitchell as Hill was on his way out and they needed PG depth.

"Yo I'm a Knick!! Whhhaat" - RJ Barrett
Knixkik
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2/15/2018  10:38 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/15/2018  10:39 AM
Uptown wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

+ 1000....My biggest problem with this pick is there were better prospects at 8 that we could have gone with....The fact that Dolan waited until after the draft to fire phil was assinine...Perry should have been able to pick his own player, hence the fact that since he got here, he has been tyring to find pgs (Burke, Jack, Sessions, Mudiay) etc...

Better prospects? Only Mitchell. Monk has been bad. Some of you guys like Dennis Smith because he gets his stats, but Frank has been superior in real plus minus, wins added, among other advanced stats. He also outplayed Smith in the head to head. But you guys love stats and they matter most, so sure Smith is better in those areas.

Uptown
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2/15/2018  10:44 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/15/2018  10:55 AM
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

Washington Wizards fans were saying similar things about Otto Porter two years ago. Now he's a Max player. It's way too early to tell if it's a bad pick.

anyone who watched Porter in his rookie year would have EASILY been able to tell he was bust, just like you can see with Frank now. A 3rd pick in the draft should be better than 2ppg and 35% or whatever he shot. Porter was a bad pick because there were better players after him. Bla bla bla....
Negatives only motivate Frank. He's one of those. Another reason (among 500 others) I think he's going to be a good player in the league and a winning player.

Otto Porter was an all american player at Gtown, so anyone who watches college basketball was able to see the prospect in live action could project what type of player he might turn out to be at the next level. Problem with Frank is there aint any references that we could rely on making him virtually unknown. None of us seen him play so we had to rely on some scouting reports and his 5 pts per game in Europe to project what he might or might not be...

Knixkik
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2/15/2018  10:49 AM
Uptown wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

Washington Wizards fans were saying similar things about Otto Porter two years ago. Now he's a Max player. It's way too early to tell if it's a bad pick.

anyone who watched Porter in his rookie year would have EASILY been able to tell he was bust, just like you can see with Frank now. A 3rd pick in the draft should be better than 2ppg and 35% or whatever he shot. Porter was a bad pick because there were better players after him. Bla bla bla....
Negatives only motivate Frank. He's one of those. Another reason (among 500 others) I think he's going to be a good player in the league and a winning player.

Otto Porter was an all american player at Gtown, so anyone who watches college basketball was abel to see the prospect in live action could project what type of player he might turn out to be at the next level. Problem with Frank is there aint any references that we could rely on making him virtually unknown. None of us seen him play so we had to rely on some scouting reports and his 5 pts per game in Europe to project what he might or might not be...

Fran Fraschilla described him well during the draft process last year. He's an international scouting guru, and felt he was going to be a good NBA starting guard, but not a star, and not a stats guy. At this point, I am planning on that being accurate. At 19, he has shown some flashes of the impact he can have long term. Maybe he only becomes a 10 point, 5 assist, 4 reb, 40% 3pt, and elite defensive player. The 10 ppg might not be enough for guys who fall in love with the stats, but i think this is what we should expect from him long term. Marcus Smart with a jumpshot type stuff.

Uptown
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2/15/2018  10:54 AM
Knixkik wrote:
Uptown wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

+ 1000....My biggest problem with this pick is there were better prospects at 8 that we could have gone with....The fact that Dolan waited until after the draft to fire phil was assinine...Perry should have been able to pick his own player, hence the fact that since he got here, he has been tyring to find pgs (Burke, Jack, Sessions, Mudiay) etc...

Better prospects? Only Mitchell. Monk has been bad. Some of you guys like Dennis Smith because he gets his stats, but Frank has been superior in real plus minus, wins added, among other advanced stats. He also outplayed Smith in the head to head. But you guys love stats and they matter most, so sure Smith is better in those areas.

Speaking of stats, you are using numbers to try and prove that Frank is a better player than Smith which is pure nonsense....Advanced stats and the like are not the end all be all...they are there for support...I actually watch games, and I've watched Smith play at least 20 times with the Mavs and he is a far better player than Frank. Not even close...

IMO, Frank has end of the 1st round talent. Josh Hart, who was picked at the end of the 1st round is a better prospect than Frank and I said as much on draft night...

Knixkik
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2/15/2018  11:10 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/15/2018  11:12 AM
Uptown wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Uptown wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

+ 1000....My biggest problem with this pick is there were better prospects at 8 that we could have gone with....The fact that Dolan waited until after the draft to fire phil was assinine...Perry should have been able to pick his own player, hence the fact that since he got here, he has been tyring to find pgs (Burke, Jack, Sessions, Mudiay) etc...

Better prospects? Only Mitchell. Monk has been bad. Some of you guys like Dennis Smith because he gets his stats, but Frank has been superior in real plus minus, wins added, among other advanced stats. He also outplayed Smith in the head to head. But you guys love stats and they matter most, so sure Smith is better in those areas.

Speaking of stats, you are using numbers to try and prove that Frank is a better player than Smith which is pure nonsense....Advanced stats and the like are not the end all be all...they are there for support...I actually watch games, and I've watched Smith play at least 20 times with the Mavs and he is a far better player than Frank. Not even close...

IMO, Frank has end of the 1st round talent. Josh Hart, who was picked at the end of the 1st round is a better prospect than Frank and I said as much on draft night...

Hart is 23 years old. Frank is 19. Can't even compare them. Every scout and analyst put Frank in the top of the draft. You are not smarter than those guys when it comes to evaluating talent. I have watched Smith and have not been impressed with him from what i have seen. Empty stats.

martin
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2/15/2018  11:11 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

Washington Wizards fans were saying similar things about Otto Porter two years ago. Now he's a Max player. It's way too early to tell if it's a bad pick.

Dont believe its unfair to say that while Frank might turn out to be a good player, the Knicks would have been better served drafting a more NBA ready player, considering our needs. And maybe taking Frank in the second round,if still there.

Baker was older, but he was undrafted. Cant really say that Frank's rookie season as the 8th pick, was remarkably better.

Also worth noting that the best move to the rim Frank made as a Knick was when he played off the ball. Id rather Frank turn to a good SG than one coach after another trying to prove they can turn Frank into a great starting PG.

What? Why are you drafting a more NBA ready player? This is not a playoff team that needs to plug 1 hole in their rotation. High ceiling potential is exactly what the Knicks need IMHO. Same as when you draft a guy like KP.

And do you really think Frank would have lasted anywhere near the second round?

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fishmike
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2/15/2018  11:29 AM
Knixkik wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

Way too early to tell. When will you guys learn? Can't judge a player's career this soon in the process. Again, elite defense and good 3pt shooter. Those are 2 skills that will prevent him from being a bad NBA player. They will keep him a rotation player for most of his career, thus, he won't be a bust. As far as the 8th pick, if he develops into a quality starter than that's 8th pick material. Most 8th picks don't become stars. Some of you guys are unbelievable. Judge the guy in a couple of years. Even then, he will still be only 21, but at least you will have a real sample size to go off of.

sure you can! If only we could swap Frank for LAndry Fields think about how excited and hopeful fans here would be!

To me the only thing that matters is that Frank's season ends healthy and positive. I dont care if his numbers dont increase, just stay the course, rest, spend the summer working on his game and be a leader for the summer league squad. Frank/Kornet/Hicks/Dotson this should be a great summer league team to watch. Add in a lottery pick to that. Nothing fancy but its a start. Thing I dont worry about with Frank is his downside (assuming healthy) is a 3&D rotation guy. Maybe he's our Shane Battier. Right now I would much rather have Mitchell as would about 8 other teams. Im not down on Frank. He's going to be a good player for us for years. How good remains to be seen.

fishmike
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2/15/2018  11:32 AM
Uptown wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Uptown wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

+ 1000....My biggest problem with this pick is there were better prospects at 8 that we could have gone with....The fact that Dolan waited until after the draft to fire phil was assinine...Perry should have been able to pick his own player, hence the fact that since he got here, he has been tyring to find pgs (Burke, Jack, Sessions, Mudiay) etc...

Better prospects? Only Mitchell. Monk has been bad. Some of you guys like Dennis Smith because he gets his stats, but Frank has been superior in real plus minus, wins added, among other advanced stats. He also outplayed Smith in the head to head. But you guys love stats and they matter most, so sure Smith is better in those areas.

Speaking of stats, you are using numbers to try and prove that Frank is a better player than Smith which is pure nonsense....Advanced stats and the like are not the end all be all...they are there for support...I actually watch games, and I've watched Smith play at least 20 times with the Mavs and he is a far better player than Frank. Not even close...

IMO, Frank has end of the 1st round talent. Josh Hart, who was picked at the end of the 1st round is a better prospect than Frank and I said as much on draft night...

Josh Hart has been OK and is 3 years older and doesnt have Frank's physical tools. Josh Hart is a polished 4 year college player with a high BB IQ and below average athleticism for the NBA.
Knixkik
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2/15/2018  11:32 AM
fishmike wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:He was a bad pick at 8. But that's all water under the bridge. Right now he's a possibly fringe NBA player. Sorry nix, u need more than d at the pg position. I'm not really seeing the bball iq which his proponents say is really high.

Way too early to tell. When will you guys learn? Can't judge a player's career this soon in the process. Again, elite defense and good 3pt shooter. Those are 2 skills that will prevent him from being a bad NBA player. They will keep him a rotation player for most of his career, thus, he won't be a bust. As far as the 8th pick, if he develops into a quality starter than that's 8th pick material. Most 8th picks don't become stars. Some of you guys are unbelievable. Judge the guy in a couple of years. Even then, he will still be only 21, but at least you will have a real sample size to go off of.

sure you can! If only we could swap Frank for LAndry Fields think about how excited and hopeful fans here would be!

To me the only thing that matters is that Frank's season ends healthy and positive. I dont care if his numbers dont increase, just stay the course, rest, spend the summer working on his game and be a leader for the summer league squad. Frank/Kornet/Hicks/Dotson this should be a great summer league team to watch. Add in a lottery pick to that. Nothing fancy but its a start. Thing I dont worry about with Frank is his downside (assuming healthy) is a 3&D rotation guy. Maybe he's our Shane Battier. Right now I would much rather have Mitchell as would about 8 other teams. Im not down on Frank. He's going to be a good player for us for years. How good remains to be seen.

+1.

His downside is 3&D combo guard. Upside is elite defensive guard with good playmaking ability. Very unlikely to be a star, but i think he is likely to develop into a starting player. But way too early to make any real judgments, as hard as that is for some people.

Frank the Blank

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