fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I'm just waiting for cats to be real and just say Frank sucks.... what you think he can be is irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't mean I'm saying he needs to be traded.... im saying he's terrible right now. That's a fact.

Terrible on offense, yes. But he's a good defensive player already. As opposed to many rookies that put up numbers, but they are empty numbers and they are also poor defensively. He's not as bad as his numbers show, compared to other rookies. 3pt shooting going up, defensive impact clearly there. Obviously he has a long way to go, but if you don't just focus on stats and him being invisible on offense at times, there's good stuff in there.

No need to bring up other players that actual got stats. Frank isn't even stats.... but Frank is better simply because he can play defense? Disregard how hard it is to average anything on the nba level. Those players suck. Frank isn't even on that level. You have to score more to win. You can't go 20 minutes in the nba and get no stats and poodle still say you are a good player because you can "play defense".... it's ridiculous. Frank needs to hear from us that he sucks. That should light a fire. It's just not acceptable

Do you think was good with that? You think Frank is happy with his game?

WHAT IS YOUR POINT DUDE, BESIDE JUSTIFYING EVERYTHING ON HIS AGE.

Do you think the knicks are developing frank and KP the right way?

Yes or no?.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I'm just waiting for cats to be real and just say Frank sucks.... what you think he can be is irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't mean I'm saying he needs to be traded.... im saying he's terrible right now. That's a fact.

Terrible on offense, yes. But he's a good defensive player already. As opposed to many rookies that put up numbers, but they are empty numbers and they are also poor defensively. He's not as bad as his numbers show, compared to other rookies. 3pt shooting going up, defensive impact clearly there. Obviously he has a long way to go, but if you don't just focus on stats and him being invisible on offense at times, there's good stuff in there.

No need to bring up other players that actual got stats. Frank isn't even stats.... but Frank is better simply because he can play defense? Disregard how hard it is to average anything on the nba level. Those players suck. Frank isn't even on that level. You have to score more to win. You can't go 20 minutes in the nba and get no stats and poodle still say you are a good player because you can "play defense".... it's ridiculous. Frank needs to hear from us that he sucks. That should light a fire. It's just not acceptable

Do you think was good with that? You think Frank is happy with his game?

WHAT IS YOUR POINT DUDE, BESIDE JUSTIFYING EVERYTHING ON HIS AGE.

Do you think the knicks are developing frank and KP the right way?

Yes or no?.

We are not talking about kinder-gardeners.
The players development is their own responsibility.
Team provides facilities, trainers, equipment, coaching, etc.
But it is up to the player himself and up to his talent and abilities on how far and how fast he will develop.
They have their own team, agents, associates, family, etc.
Life is not simple you know... Especially for pro athletes.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I'm just waiting for cats to be real and just say Frank sucks.... what you think he can be is irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't mean I'm saying he needs to be traded.... im saying he's terrible right now. That's a fact.

Terrible on offense, yes. But he's a good defensive player already. As opposed to many rookies that put up numbers, but they are empty numbers and they are also poor defensively. He's not as bad as his numbers show, compared to other rookies. 3pt shooting going up, defensive impact clearly there. Obviously he has a long way to go, but if you don't just focus on stats and him being invisible on offense at times, there's good stuff in there.

No need to bring up other players that actual got stats. Frank isn't even stats.... but Frank is better simply because he can play defense? Disregard how hard it is to average anything on the nba level. Those players suck. Frank isn't even on that level. You have to score more to win. You can't go 20 minutes in the nba and get no stats and poodle still say you are a good player because you can "play defense".... it's ridiculous. Frank needs to hear from us that he sucks. That should light a fire. It's just not acceptable

Do you think was good with that? You think Frank is happy with his game?

WHAT IS YOUR POINT DUDE, BESIDE JUSTIFYING EVERYTHING ON HIS AGE.

Do you think the knicks are developing frank and KP the right way?

Yes or no?.

I can't answer that question in regards to Frank since we haven't even had him for a full season. As for KP, he is an All-Star in year 3. It looks someone is doing something right.

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I'm just waiting for cats to be real and just say Frank sucks.... what you think he can be is irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't mean I'm saying he needs to be traded.... im saying he's terrible right now. That's a fact.

Terrible on offense, yes. But he's a good defensive player already. As opposed to many rookies that put up numbers, but they are empty numbers and they are also poor defensively. He's not as bad as his numbers show, compared to other rookies. 3pt shooting going up, defensive impact clearly there. Obviously he has a long way to go, but if you don't just focus on stats and him being invisible on offense at times, there's good stuff in there.

No need to bring up other players that actual got stats. Frank isn't even stats.... but Frank is better simply because he can play defense? Disregard how hard it is to average anything on the nba level. Those players suck. Frank isn't even on that level. You have to score more to win. You can't go 20 minutes in the nba and get no stats and poodle still say you are a good player because you can "play defense".... it's ridiculous. Frank needs to hear from us that he sucks. That should light a fire. It's just not acceptable

Do you think was good with that? You think Frank is happy with his game?

WHAT IS YOUR POINT DUDE, BESIDE JUSTIFYING EVERYTHING ON HIS AGE.

Do you think the knicks are developing frank and KP the right way?

Yes or no?.

I can't answer that question in regards to Frank since we haven't even had him for a full season. As for KP, he is an All-Star in year 3. It looks someone is doing something right.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Frank is RAW Offensively but we knew that. It was always going to take time for Frank to develop but the reason why Frank is still a +1 on the year in On/Off Court is his Defense. Frank is that good and it’s going right over a LOT of fans heads! Frank is 90th Percentile in PnR Defense as a Rookie! When he’s on the floor with KP who is a great rim protector it makes the Knicks Defense a LOT better.

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&sort=Percentile&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*40:PossG*GE*3

His defense has little to no impact, he is not stopping anyone.

Frank is the only 19 yr old in the league getting that much PT, and he sucks.

IT says something about an organization that brings in a kid that RAW, and has to rely on him..Thats the saddest part. An organization like the spurs would have stash him for another yr..

You seriously need help! You don’t draft for how a player will be in his rookie season. It’s what you think he can be long term. This wasn’t about immediacy just as it wasn’t with KP who most believed would need years to develop.

Frank’s Defense does in FACT have an impact. His only problem is not scoring enough but even with that his impact is that the team is a +1 with him on the floor. It’s even higher when he’s on the floor with KP!

I posted the stats on D for a reason. You may THINK Frank isn’t effective on D but you’re clearly WRONG. He’s Elite in terms of PnR D which is the main thing teams run. The Knicks Defensive Rating improves over 4 points when Frank is on the floor. His main issue is his scoring which is something he can improve on. Frank Shot 37% from 3 in December. It’s logical to think he’s going to improve his shooting since many guards do improve.

I don't expect sht from a 19 yr old foreign born player who's game is no where near NBA ready.

Everybody knows the kid needs time, so sit him and play Mudiay and Burke.

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I'm just waiting for cats to be real and just say Frank sucks.... what you think he can be is irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't mean I'm saying he needs to be traded.... im saying he's terrible right now. That's a fact.

Terrible on offense, yes. But he's a good defensive player already. As opposed to many rookies that put up numbers, but they are empty numbers and they are also poor defensively. He's not as bad as his numbers show, compared to other rookies. 3pt shooting going up, defensive impact clearly there. Obviously he has a long way to go, but if you don't just focus on stats and him being invisible on offense at times, there's good stuff in there.

No need to bring up other players that actual got stats. Frank isn't even stats.... but Frank is better simply because he can play defense? Disregard how hard it is to average anything on the nba level. Those players suck. Frank isn't even on that level. You have to score more to win. You can't go 20 minutes in the nba and get no stats and poodle still say you are a good player because you can "play defense".... it's ridiculous. Frank needs to hear from us that he sucks. That should light a fire. It's just not acceptable

Do you think was good with that? You think Frank is happy with his game?

WHAT IS YOUR POINT DUDE, BESIDE JUSTIFYING EVERYTHING ON HIS AGE.

Do you think the knicks are developing frank and KP the right way?

Yes or no?.

I can't answer that question in regards to Frank since we haven't even had him for a full season. As for KP, he is an All-Star in year 3. It looks someone is doing something right.

after training all summer long with his people overseas, now that he's back under the knicks trainers, how's that looking..go look at the november stats compared to the january stats, looks like 2 different players

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I'm just waiting for cats to be real and just say Frank sucks.... what you think he can be is irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't mean I'm saying he needs to be traded.... im saying he's terrible right now. That's a fact.

Terrible on offense, yes. But he's a good defensive player already. As opposed to many rookies that put up numbers, but they are empty numbers and they are also poor defensively. He's not as bad as his numbers show, compared to other rookies. 3pt shooting going up, defensive impact clearly there. Obviously he has a long way to go, but if you don't just focus on stats and him being invisible on offense at times, there's good stuff in there.

No need to bring up other players that actual got stats. Frank isn't even stats.... but Frank is better simply because he can play defense? Disregard how hard it is to average anything on the nba level. Those players suck. Frank isn't even on that level. You have to score more to win. You can't go 20 minutes in the nba and get no stats and poodle still say you are a good player because you can "play defense".... it's ridiculous. Frank needs to hear from us that he sucks. That should light a fire. It's just not acceptable

Compare him to someone like Andre Roberson, who just got paid big but never puts up stats. Frank can shoot much better than him too. Just saying, just because you don't put up stats doesn't mean you suck. Frank has 2 nba skills right now: good perimeter defense, and 3pt shot (which is improving every day to NBA average). The rest of his game is a major work in progress. But he should be a college freshman right now, so i can deal with that.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:Frank is RAW Offensively but we knew that. It was always going to take time for Frank to develop but the reason why Frank is still a +1 on the year in On/Off Court is his Defense. Frank is that good and it’s going right over a LOT of fans heads! Frank is 90th Percentile in PnR Defense as a Rookie! When he’s on the floor with KP who is a great rim protector it makes the Knicks Defense a LOT better.

http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&sort=Percentile&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*40:PossG*GE*3

I think Nalod called him an elite defender. Based on the eye test I thought that was not accurate and I tried to find stats that might prove me wrong. I couldn't find anything. Nice find. I still think he has a long way to go. I also thought I saw stats that had his on off court plus minus as a negative. I will have to look again. I had ten minutes at work and was messing around.

Check out this defensive stat
http://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&sort=Percentile&dir=1

And this one
http://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&sort=TO&dir=1

And...
http://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive

You can change any variable and find something postitive on just about anyone.

Fact is, Nix is super optimistic and will do anything to keep it that way. And Frank IS a good defender, athletic and good team player. What he doesnt get is that Frank has as much chance of becoming MJ as becoming Cleanthony Early. So far he is tracking towards the latter. Yet others will prolong the possibility of him being a wasted pick by stating his age. The quetion those people cant answer is...WHY did we use an 8th pick on such a young question mark?? Thats the only argument here. NOT what will he turn out to be. Because NO ONE knows. And there is NO WAY anyone can say that his play this year is any clue that he will be more than just a role player.

CrushAlot wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I'm just waiting for cats to be real and just say Frank sucks.... what you think he can be is irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't mean I'm saying he needs to be traded.... im saying he's terrible right now. That's a fact.

Terrible on offense, yes. But he's a good defensive player already. As opposed to many rookies that put up numbers, but they are empty numbers and they are also poor defensively. He's not as bad as his numbers show, compared to other rookies. 3pt shooting going up, defensive impact clearly there. Obviously he has a long way to go, but if you don't just focus on stats and him being invisible on offense at times, there's good stuff in there.

No need to bring up other players that actual got stats. Frank isn't even stats.... but Frank is better simply because he can play defense? Disregard how hard it is to average anything on the nba level. Those players suck. Frank isn't even on that level. You have to score more to win. You can't go 20 minutes in the nba and get no stats and poodle still say you are a good player because you can "play defense".... it's ridiculous. Frank needs to hear from us that he sucks. That should light a fire. It's just not acceptable

Compare him to someone like Andre Roberson, who just got paid big but never puts up stats. Frank can shoot much better than him too. Just saying, just because you don't put up stats doesn't mean you suck. Frank has 2 nba skills right now: good perimeter defense, and 3pt shot (which is improving every day to NBA average). The rest of his game is a major work in progress. But he should be a college freshman right now, so i can deal with that.

19 is very young for an nba player. But most college freshmen don't start school at age 19. Frank is a soph unless he started school late or had difficulties graduating on time.

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I'm just waiting for cats to be real and just say Frank sucks.... what you think he can be is irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't mean I'm saying he needs to be traded.... im saying he's terrible right now. That's a fact.

Terrible on offense, yes. But he's a good defensive player already. As opposed to many rookies that put up numbers, but they are empty numbers and they are also poor defensively. He's not as bad as his numbers show, compared to other rookies. 3pt shooting going up, defensive impact clearly there. Obviously he has a long way to go, but if you don't just focus on stats and him being invisible on offense at times, there's good stuff in there.

No need to bring up other players that actual got stats. Frank isn't even stats.... but Frank is better simply because he can play defense? Disregard how hard it is to average anything on the nba level. Those players suck. Frank isn't even on that level. You have to score more to win. You can't go 20 minutes in the nba and get no stats and poodle still say you are a good player because you can "play defense".... it's ridiculous. Frank needs to hear from us that he sucks. That should light a fire. It's just not acceptable

Compare him to someone like Andre Roberson, who just got paid big but never puts up stats. Frank can shoot much better than him too. Just saying, just because you don't put up stats doesn't mean you suck. Frank has 2 nba skills right now: good perimeter defense, and 3pt shot (which is improving every day to NBA average). The rest of his game is a major work in progress. But he should be a college freshman right now, so i can deal with that.

Dude Andre Roberson sucks lol.... bad analogy. He got paid because the person who paid him is a idiot. Roberson is shooting 22% from 3... he shoots 53% from the field because he's the forgotten man out on the court.

Geezus Christmas....

Ok so now we wanna say Frank is a 3 and d guy....in that context that's true.... which brings me back to the fact Frank is not a point guard. We should stop trying fyi force him to be one in the nba. That bull**** can fly in the French league, not the NBA. Frank needs his responsibility reduced because he's terrible at it on tge NBA level. He has to learn basic point guard traits.... he does however shot the 3 and play defense. Shoo maybe that's what we need too make him do.

We don't have to make him do that.....lol

Thats what he brings to the team RIGHT NOW....

And I agree, right now he's not playing like he's worth an 8th pick.

But at the same time, we can't over exaggerate his lows....He's still a 1st round pick just because of his age and pro career (played against grown men) resume, compared to college kids playing with college kids. But again, I'm frustrated as well....Sometimes I'm like this dude is trash....But I have to respect the growth speed of players is not always the same. Especially for international players, which I have NO EXPERIENCE ON.

EnySpree wrote:

blkexec wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I'm just waiting for cats to be real and just say Frank sucks.... what you think he can be is irrelevant to that fact. Doesn't mean I'm saying he needs to be traded.... im saying he's terrible right now. That's a fact.

Terrible on offense, yes. But he's a good defensive player already. As opposed to many rookies that put up numbers, but they are empty numbers and they are also poor defensively. He's not as bad as his numbers show, compared to other rookies. 3pt shooting going up, defensive impact clearly there. Obviously he has a long way to go, but if you don't just focus on stats and him being invisible on offense at times, there's good stuff in there.

No need to bring up other players that actual got stats. Frank isn't even stats.... but Frank is better simply because he can play defense? Disregard how hard it is to average anything on the nba level. Those players suck. Frank isn't even on that level. You have to score more to win. You can't go 20 minutes in the nba and get no stats and poodle still say you are a good player because you can "play defense".... it's ridiculous. Frank needs to hear from us that he sucks. That should light a fire. It's just not acceptable

Compare him to someone like Andre Roberson, who just got paid big but never puts up stats. Frank can shoot much better than him too. Just saying, just because you don't put up stats doesn't mean you suck. Frank has 2 nba skills right now: good perimeter defense, and 3pt shot (which is improving every day to NBA average). The rest of his game is a major work in progress. But he should be a college freshman right now, so i can deal with that.

Dude Andre Roberson sucks lol.... bad analogy. He got paid because the person who paid him is a idiot. Roberson is shooting 22% from 3... he shoots 53% from the field because he's the forgotten man out on the court.

Geezus Christmas....

Ok so now we wanna say Frank is a 3 and d guy....in that context that's true.... which brings me back to the fact Frank is not a point guard. We should stop trying fyi force him to be one in the nba. That bull**** can fly in the French league, not the NBA. Frank needs his responsibility reduced because he's terrible at it on tge NBA level. He has to learn basic point guard traits.... he does however shot the 3 and play defense. Shoo maybe that's what we need too make him do.

We don't have to make him do that.....lol

Thats what he brings to the team RIGHT NOW....

And I agree, right now he's not playing like he's worth an 8th pick.

But at the same time, we can't over exaggerate his lows....He's still a 1st round pick just because of his age and pro career (played against grown men) resume, compared to college kids playing with college kids. But again, I'm frustrated as well....Sometimes I'm like this dude is trash....But I have to respect the growth speed of players is not always the same. Especially for international players, which I have NO EXPERIENCE ON.

I never mentioned his draft position. That's not my concern at all.... also I want to reiterate the fact I believe in the kid that he can improve.

It's just that he's not a NBA point guard. That fact I think is solid. He is though a nice 3 and d player. He's closer to being Justin Holiday than anything close to a point guard. He's simply not a point guard. Right now he doesn't even deserve to play.

I'm amazed at how people can't accept that. They keep talking about potential and his age. Developing a player us determine what they can do and putting them in as spot to grow. Mindlessly playing a guy when they are over their heads and calling it developing is ludicrous.

Also alot of you think we could put Mudiaay and Frank together. Yes we can, but not as dual point guards. Frank isn't a point guard. He's closer to Justin Holiday. That's not a knock. That's a great projection. If Frank could do what Justin is doing next year then we got better. I think Frank would florish. Mudiay is the guy with the true point guard potential. Mudiay doesn't have to deverlop basic point guard traits. His only problem is decision making... guys don't get double doubles in the NBA by having poor basketball IQ. We're in good hands... by the time KP cones babble guys will have there roles defined. We just need to be realistic..... again, right now Frank is terrible ave the whole point guard experiment with Frank needs to stop.

At the end of the day, he might end of being a 3&D combo guard. Think George Hill, Patrick Beverley, and Avery Bradley. Great role player particularly for a team with wings who handle the ball a lot. Obviously we will need to find that type of wing in the future. He's a 34% 3pt shooter on the upswing. He will likely be a 38-40% 3pt shooter in a couple of years.