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martin
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3/29/2018  11:31 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:Was not saying Green is not a good "Role" player. Think we agree that he was a player who had quetion marks at draft and was thought as more of a role piece, Perfect guy to take at 35. My point was more that "Role" players should not be taken at 8. ie. Frank. As mentioned, Green is a great compliment to three of the best players in the NBA. But lets not make it out to be that he would be experiencing this tyoe of success without them.

Draymond is also a perfect guy to draft at 8-13 in pretty much any year, no less 35, with hindsight. http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-history/2012/all/all/

A high-level starter and borderline all-star is exactly what you would like baring an explosion of a player, and those are rare.

Green IS a great compliment but I think most coaches also understand his value and it seems like you are underselling it.

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Andrew
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3/29/2018  11:31 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:was that Frank was taken at 8! Its reasonable to expect more at that spot.

Is it? Here is the list of #8 picks since 2000. How many do you consider solid, no doubt about it starters? To me #8 is no guarantee of anything.


2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats (Draft rights traded to Golden State Warriors)
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets (Draft rights traded to Memphis Grizzlies)
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers (Draft rights traded to Chicago Bulls)

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Andrew
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3/29/2018  11:36 AM
Andrew wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:was that Frank was taken at 8! Its reasonable to expect more at that spot.

Is it? Here is the list of #8 picks since 2000. How many do you consider solid, no doubt about it starters? To me #8 is no guarantee of anything.


2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats (Draft rights traded to Golden State Warriors)
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets (Draft rights traded to Memphis Grizzlies)
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers (Draft rights traded to Chicago Bulls)

I looked through some(not all) of the rookie stats these players put up and most are underwhelming. Much like Franks.

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GustavBahler
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3/29/2018  11:41 AM
Andrew wrote:
Andrew wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:was that Frank was taken at 8! Its reasonable to expect more at that spot.

Is it? Here is the list of #8 picks since 2000. How many do you consider solid, no doubt about it starters? To me #8 is no guarantee of anything.


2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats (Draft rights traded to Golden State Warriors)
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets (Draft rights traded to Memphis Grizzlies)
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers (Draft rights traded to Chicago Bulls)

I looked through some(not all) of the rookie stats these players put up and most are underwhelming. Much like Franks.

That 2009 draft was so frustrating because we already had another 8 pick on that list in Chris Wilcox who brought the same thing to the table. It was like Walsh didnt plan for anyone but Curry.
jrodmc
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3/29/2018  11:41 AM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:I actually watch the games and use stats to support unlike some of this board who use stats as an end-all be-all...I've seen at least 15 Mavs games and DSJ is a better player than Frank at this point IMO. He's not better by a wide margin, but his offensive game is a more advanced...not sure why this upsets people...Obviously, Smith is a better offensive player than he is defensive, but why doesn't he get the same benefit of the doubt that Frank gets? Why can't the 20 yr old Smith improve defensively same way most seem to think 19 yr old Frank will improve offensively? It's a lot easier to improve on the defensive end than it is on the offensive end...Frank is a good defender but lets not make him out to be Alvin Robertson or Sydney Moncrief!!!

I have always thought the opposite, and by miles.

Absolutely

This from the same people who spouted for years about how all it takes on defense is to show some effort. SMFH...

If you don't have a jumpshot, can't jump, don't have handles, and routinely can't finish at the rim, why is that "by miles" easier to improve than learning to always stick a hand in someone's face, fight around screens and not stand still on D?
Uptown
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3/29/2018  11:45 AM
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:I actually watch the games and use stats to support unlike some of this board who use stats as an end-all be-all...I've seen at least 15 Mavs games and DSJ is a better player than Frank at this point IMO. He's not better by a wide margin, but his offensive game is a more advanced...not sure why this upsets people...Obviously, Smith is a better offensive player than he is defensive, but why doesn't he get the same benefit of the doubt that Frank gets? Why can't the 20 yr old Smith improve defensively same way most seem to think 19 yr old Frank will improve offensively? It's a lot easier to improve on the defensive end than it is on the offensive end...Frank is a good defender but lets not make him out to be Alvin Robertson or Sydney Moncrief!!!

I have always thought the opposite, and by miles.

Totally disagree....I guess i have a different perspective. I coach girls high school ball....over the years, I 've had girls who play other sports make the team. I have two track athletes playing for me right now...Neither of them can dribble with their left hand (offensive skill) one struggles catching the ball if its not thrown directly to her (offensive skill), Neither one are good outside shooters (offensive skill) and one still can't make the lefty lay up (offensive skill). But, both earn their playing time because they play really good defense.

Both are able to apply extreme defensive pressure. And it was/is much easier to teach them to help and recover and to play on the line and up the line while denying the passing lane in their first year in the program. Both girls are Juniors and we have been working with these girls since their freshman year, summer camps, pre-season work outs and still, they struggle dribbling with the left and lefty layups, catching the ball, proper footwork in the post for one of them....Way more skills to teach offensively than defensively...
martin
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3/29/2018  11:49 AM
jrodmc wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:I actually watch the games and use stats to support unlike some of this board who use stats as an end-all be-all...I've seen at least 15 Mavs games and DSJ is a better player than Frank at this point IMO. He's not better by a wide margin, but his offensive game is a more advanced...not sure why this upsets people...Obviously, Smith is a better offensive player than he is defensive, but why doesn't he get the same benefit of the doubt that Frank gets? Why can't the 20 yr old Smith improve defensively same way most seem to think 19 yr old Frank will improve offensively? It's a lot easier to improve on the defensive end than it is on the offensive end...Frank is a good defender but lets not make him out to be Alvin Robertson or Sydney Moncrief!!!

I have always thought the opposite, and by miles.

Absolutely

This from the same people who spouted for years about how all it takes on defense is to show some effort. SMFH...

If you don't have a jumpshot, can't jump, don't have handles, and routinely can't finish at the rim, why is that "by miles" easier to improve than learning to always stick a hand in someone's face, fight around screens and not stand still on D?

If you want to make a generalization go ahead, but in this case it makes you look very stupid. No thanks

BTW, putting in effort is the bare minimum and player show be doing on defense. Kanter puts in effort, he still sucks at D

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StarksEwing1
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3/29/2018  11:49 AM
Uptown wrote:
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:I actually watch the games and use stats to support unlike some of this board who use stats as an end-all be-all...I've seen at least 15 Mavs games and DSJ is a better player than Frank at this point IMO. He's not better by a wide margin, but his offensive game is a more advanced...not sure why this upsets people...Obviously, Smith is a better offensive player than he is defensive, but why doesn't he get the same benefit of the doubt that Frank gets? Why can't the 20 yr old Smith improve defensively same way most seem to think 19 yr old Frank will improve offensively? It's a lot easier to improve on the defensive end than it is on the offensive end...Frank is a good defender but lets not make him out to be Alvin Robertson or Sydney Moncrief!!!

I have always thought the opposite, and by miles.

Totally disagree....I guess i have a different perspective. I coach girls high school ball....over the years, I 've had girls who play other sports make the team. I have two track athletes playing for me right now...Neither of them can dribble with their left hand (offensive skill) one struggles catching the ball if its not thrown directly to her (offensive skill), Neither one are good outside shooters (offensive skill) and one still can't make the lefty lay up (offensive skill). But, both earn their playing time because they play really good defense.

Both are able to apply extreme defensive pressure. And it was/is much easier to teach them to help and recover and to play on the line and up the line while denying the passing lane in their first year in the program. Both girls are Juniors and we have been working with these girls since their freshman year, summer camps, pre-season work outs and still, they struggle dribbling with the left and lefty layups, catching the ball, proper footwork in the post for one of them....Way more skills to teach offensively than defensively...

well i do agree certain offensive instincts/moves are not easy to learn no doubt. However i also coach and i can tell you the guys i coach always seem to have the most difficulty on the defensive end(at least on a fairly consistent basis)
Andrew
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3/29/2018  11:49 AM
jrodmc wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:I actually watch the games and use stats to support unlike some of this board who use stats as an end-all be-all...I've seen at least 15 Mavs games and DSJ is a better player than Frank at this point IMO. He's not better by a wide margin, but his offensive game is a more advanced...not sure why this upsets people...Obviously, Smith is a better offensive player than he is defensive, but why doesn't he get the same benefit of the doubt that Frank gets? Why can't the 20 yr old Smith improve defensively same way most seem to think 19 yr old Frank will improve offensively? It's a lot easier to improve on the defensive end than it is on the offensive end...Frank is a good defender but lets not make him out to be Alvin Robertson or Sydney Moncrief!!!

I have always thought the opposite, and by miles.

Absolutely

This from the same people who spouted for years about how all it takes on defense is to show some effort. SMFH...

If you don't have a jumpshot, can't jump, don't have handles, and routinely can't finish at the rim, why is that "by miles" easier to improve than learning to always stick a hand in someone's face, fight around screens and not stand still on D?

I'd say from a coaches viewpoint (any sport)....you can teach technique, skills, get players to be faster, stronger, but effort and a willingness to sacrifice (staples of defense) is something not everyone has and is difficult to teach.

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Uptown
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3/29/2018  11:54 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/29/2018  11:55 AM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:I actually watch the games and use stats to support unlike some of this board who use stats as an end-all be-all...I've seen at least 15 Mavs games and DSJ is a better player than Frank at this point IMO. He's not better by a wide margin, but his offensive game is a more advanced...not sure why this upsets people...Obviously, Smith is a better offensive player than he is defensive, but why doesn't he get the same benefit of the doubt that Frank gets? Why can't the 20 yr old Smith improve defensively same way most seem to think 19 yr old Frank will improve offensively? It's a lot easier to improve on the defensive end than it is on the offensive end...Frank is a good defender but lets not make him out to be Alvin Robertson or Sydney Moncrief!!!

I have always thought the opposite, and by miles.

Totally disagree....I guess i have a different perspective. I coach girls high school ball....over the years, I 've had girls who play other sports make the team. I have two track athletes playing for me right now...Neither of them can dribble with their left hand (offensive skill) one struggles catching the ball if its not thrown directly to her (offensive skill), Neither one are good outside shooters (offensive skill) and one still can't make the lefty lay up (offensive skill). But, both earn their playing time because they play really good defense.

Both are able to apply extreme defensive pressure. And it was/is much easier to teach them to help and recover and to play on the line and up the line while denying the passing lane in their first year in the program. Both girls are Juniors and we have been working with these girls since their freshman year, summer camps, pre-season work outs and still, they struggle dribbling with the left and lefty layups, catching the ball, proper footwork in the post for one of them....Way more skills to teach offensively than defensively...

well i do agree certain offensive instincts/moves are not easy to learn no doubt. However i also coach and i can tell you the guys i coach always seem to have the most difficulty on the defensive end(at least on a fairly consistent basis)

Be specific...What are they struggling with exactly on the defensive end?
nixluva
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3/29/2018  12:01 PM
The thing that seems to be overlooked is that there was NO SECRET that Frank wasn't a dynamic Offensive player. They KNEW that his offense was behind the curve of the other Guards available. The idea is that his defensive potential was so high that it was worth waiting for his offense to catch up. Frank is looking like he's going to be perfect for Position-less Basketball. As he matures you can play him and not worry about who you put next to him. They didn't draft him to be a Primary Scorer. Who would look at his game and assume that he was going to be that kind of player? However, Frank WILL IMPROVE. You can see that he's not devoid of the ability to improve his offense. There are flashes of it and after a FUL SUMMER of work I suspect he'll make a big jump next year.


Now for the real reason he was drafted:
BigDaddyG
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3/29/2018  12:04 PM
EnySpree wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
Andrew wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Doesn't all this suggest he should be in the g- league? Xavier Rathan-Mayes Been there all year and got called up to Memphis... played well... actually better than Frank has here... then gets called back to Westchester

Really?

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3059247/xavier-rathan-mayes

Uh yes really... why didn't post Frank's stats for the year? Frank is averaging 5, 2 and 3 in 70+ games.

Xavier mayes in 5 games actually played 4th quarter minutes and almost helped beat the Spurs and the bulls... Memphis should have kept him cuz he deserved it


No. Mayes, who I actually like, put up worse shotting #s and wasn't as good defensively. Why are you reaching like this man?

I'm reaching? The numbers are the same but some how they aren't? I saw both games he had against the spurs and bulls.


The same? XRM had lower shooting percentages and l theower per 36 numbers in less games, but he has identical stats to Frank? No.

Oh now we're looking at per 36 minute numbers on guys averaging 5pts 2 rebounds and 3 assists per game? We're going to nickel and dime two players shooting under 40%?

You're not just reaching... you are reaching around invading my civil rights

I don't want to diminish your feelings by telling you you're wrong. The #MeToo movement is for everyone and you should feel empowered to speak out, no matter how ridiculous you're claims are..But you're wrong. Yes I'm going to Nicole and dime, just like you refuse to see there's another side of the court.

Read my last post before this one ****boy sorry I can't help it


You're on that ish. I don't even think you know what your poblem is anymore. You should just avoid Frank talk if it aggravates you this much.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
knicks1248
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3/29/2018  12:14 PM
Andrew wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:I actually watch the games and use stats to support unlike some of this board who use stats as an end-all be-all...I've seen at least 15 Mavs games and DSJ is a better player than Frank at this point IMO. He's not better by a wide margin, but his offensive game is a more advanced...not sure why this upsets people...Obviously, Smith is a better offensive player than he is defensive, but why doesn't he get the same benefit of the doubt that Frank gets? Why can't the 20 yr old Smith improve defensively same way most seem to think 19 yr old Frank will improve offensively? It's a lot easier to improve on the defensive end than it is on the offensive end...Frank is a good defender but lets not make him out to be Alvin Robertson or Sydney Moncrief!!!

I have always thought the opposite, and by miles.

Absolutely

This from the same people who spouted for years about how all it takes on defense is to show some effort. SMFH...

If you don't have a jumpshot, can't jump, don't have handles, and routinely can't finish at the rim, why is that "by miles" easier to improve than learning to always stick a hand in someone's face, fight around screens and not stand still on D?

I'd say from a coaches viewpoint (any sport)....you can teach technique, skills, get players to be faster, stronger, but effort and a willingness to sacrifice (staples of defense) is something not everyone has and is difficult to teach.

totally agree, but it does help to have a coach that can bring it out of a player

ES
knicks1248
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3/29/2018  1:08 PM
nixluva wrote:The thing that seems to be overlooked is that there was NO SECRET that Frank wasn't a dynamic Offensive player. They KNEW that his offense was behind the curve of the other Guards available. The idea is that his defensive potential was so high that it was worth waiting for his offense to catch up. Frank is looking like he's going to be perfect for Position-less Basketball. As he matures you can play him and not worry about who you put next to him. They didn't draft him to be a Primary Scorer. Who would look at his game and assume that he was going to be that kind of player? However, Frank WILL IMPROVE. You can see that he's not devoid of the ability to improve his offense. There are flashes of it and after a FUL SUMMER of work I suspect he'll make a big jump next year.


Now for the real reason he was drafted:

lol, he had his best half?

so your posting footage of 10 MINUTES WORTH OF GOOD PLAY out of 73 games

I guess I can post Kornet who had a exceptional half a couple of wks ago , why your not boasting about his potential

ES
martin
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3/29/2018  1:29 PM
knicks1248 wrote:lol, he had his best half?

so your posting footage of 10 MINUTES WORTH OF GOOD PLAY out of 73 games

I guess I can post Kornet who had a exceptional half a couple of wks ago , why your not boasting about his potential

Seriously dude, are you a Knicks fan or just someone who wants to very every single day complain about how bad everything is?

You really think that the 1 video is the only good game that Frank had or what Nix was getting after?

It's tiring man. If all you got is everything sucks, time to step away from a little while and enjoy the world.

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BigDaddyG
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3/29/2018  1:32 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:The thing that seems to be overlooked is that there was NO SECRET that Frank wasn't a dynamic Offensive player. They KNEW that his offense was behind the curve of the other Guards available. The idea is that his defensive potential was so high that it was worth waiting for his offense to catch up. Frank is looking like he's going to be perfect for Position-less Basketball. As he matures you can play him and not worry about who you put next to him. They didn't draft him to be a Primary Scorer. Who would look at his game and assume that he was going to be that kind of player? However, Frank WILL IMPROVE. You can see that he's not devoid of the ability to improve his offense. There are flashes of it and after a FUL SUMMER of work I suspect he'll make a big jump next year.


Now for the real reason he was drafted:

lol, he had his best half?

so your posting footage of 10 MINUTES WORTH OF GOOD PLAY out of 73 games

I guess I can post Kornet who had a exceptional half a couple of wks ago , why your not boasting about his potential


Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Cartman718
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3/29/2018  2:03 PM
that new era knicks tweet is incorrect. he didn't hold them scoreless because they did score. i dont think frank was guarding them each possession or the number of possessions mentioned in the tweet. also...how many possessions were they trying to score instead of an easy lob pass or kick out for a 3 or where knicks help defense was present etc etc
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
ekstarks94
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3/29/2018  6:37 PM
nixluva wrote:The thing that seems to be overlooked is that there was NO SECRET that Frank wasn't a dynamic Offensive player. They KNEW that his offense was behind the curve of the other Guards available. The idea is that his defensive potential was so high that it was worth waiting for his offense to catch up. Frank is looking like he's going to be perfect for Position-less Basketball. As he matures you can play him and not worry about who you put next to him. They didn't draft him to be a Primary Scorer. Who would look at his game and assume that he was going to be that kind of player? However, Frank WILL IMPROVE. You can see that he's not devoid of the ability to improve his offense. There are flashes of it and after a FUL SUMMER of work I suspect he'll make a big jump next year.


Now for the real reason he was drafted:


Once again on the moneyj
nixluva
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3/29/2018  8:12 PM
Cartman718 wrote:that new era knicks tweet is incorrect. he didn't hold them scoreless because they did score. i dont think frank was guarding them each possession or the number of possessions mentioned in the tweet. also...how many possessions were they trying to score instead of an easy lob pass or kick out for a 3 or where knicks help defense was present etc etc

You seriously don't watch close enough if you can make such a post. IF you can't understand that Frank actually has shut players down then there's no helping you. Fultz TRIED to score against Frank and MOST of the time he had to pass the ball. That happens OVER and OVER again in games cuz Frank is that good when he's locked in on D. Frank is a great TEAM defender as well and helps so much that sometimes he gets caught but most of the time he gets back. For the LIFE of me I can't understand the mentality of some Knicks fans when it comes to assessing Frank's defensive ability.
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3/29/2018  9:27 PM
Nate Duncan made an interesting point about Frank. He said Frank can be an excellent defender if he is playing and defending the point but he loses his size advantage at the 2 and his lack of athleticism and lack of being an offensive ve threat makes it tough to play him there.
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