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diderotn
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9/7/2004  10:04 AM
I can't believe how uneducated some Knicks fans are. Kurt Thomas in my opinion is a second string player. He is not even a PF, he is a SF. Dude worked very hard to develop a little game, but that is just that. Having this kid in our starting lineup will hurt this up-tempo squad that Isiah is trying to bring to N.Y.
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crzymdups
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9/7/2004  10:32 AM
Posted by diderotn:

I can't believe how uneducated some Knicks fans are. Kurt Thomas in my opinion is a second string player. He is not even a PF, he is a SF. Dude worked very hard to develop a little game, but that is just that. Having this kid in our starting lineup will hurt this up-tempo squad that Isiah is trying to bring to N.Y.

There are a bunch of people deluding themselves here. Let's go slowly:

1) Allan Houston is a co-captain, the team's leading scorer and it's highest paid player. There is no way in the world he won't start if he isn't healthy. End of story. The whole point to Jamal Crawford is that he can backup up Houston OR Marbury. This year, Craw comes off the bench.

2) Kurt Thomas has been a leader of this team for four years running and is their best defender. The only way Sweetney beats him is if Sweetney dominates in camp. But, really, the job is Kurt's to lose.

3) In all likelyhood, barring a trade, the lineup will look like this:
Marbury
Houston
TT
KT
Nazr

Bench:
Jamal
Sweets
Penny
Jerome
Baker

4)This will lead to a similar situation to '99 where our best/most athletic team is on the bench and our slower/more defensive/halfcourt team starts. I have no problem with this, hopefully we can utilize our depth as well as NYK 99 or Memphis did last year.

But, bottom line, people...there's no way in the world that a healthy Allan Houston does not start. I agree with the philosophy that he won't play more than 28-30 mpg. I think Kurt will start and play a similar amount of minutes, but don't be shocked if Kurt plays alongside Sweets at times or even if the team goes small and fast for certain stretches with Kurt at center and Timmy at power forward.

But this madness about Kurt not being a solid power forward needs to end: he played the second half of the season injured, people. He beat out McDyess fair and square. He's been our only solid post player. All that said, I'm sure Zeke would trade him for Jerome James in a heart beat, but until then Kurt will start (if only to keep his trade value up).
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fishmike
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9/7/2004  10:38 AM
has anyone actually seen Keon play in the last 3 years?

Keon sucks... I swear someone heard "poor mans Camby" and now its "Losing this kid to Cleveland would be devastating to us."

This guy a had a good 1-2 year run and has fizled. He's never had better than YMCA skills. He's a good athlete that hasnt been able to get on the court and he's never been serious about basketball... only making millions and smoking weed.

Please... why dont we target Shawn Kemp?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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9/7/2004  10:59 AM
Posted by fishmike:

has anyone actually seen Keon play in the last 3 years?

Keon sucks... I swear someone heard "poor mans Camby" and now its "Losing this kid to Cleveland would be devastating to us."

This guy a had a good 1-2 year run and has fizled. He's never had better than YMCA skills. He's a good athlete that hasnt been able to get on the court and he's never been serious about basketball... only making millions and smoking weed.

Please... why dont we target Shawn Kemp?

Keon isn't fat and old. Keon has hops and length. Look around the league. There aren't many players like him. We sorely need one. Unless Jerry is willing to dump Stromile in our laps, free of charge, we aren't getting one any where else.

I agree Keon is a 50/50 gamble at BEST, but what are our other options? He had his best years under Lenny, Isiah has a history of working with troubled players and if he does play with the kind of energy he did during the 2002 season, the Knicks will be much better for it. It's a gamble, but would you rather sign Rodney at this point? Eddie Griffin? Broken-wristed Oberto who hates Marbury?

There aren't many options unless a trade is brewing. The only trade I can even comprehend is Kurt for Jerome James, but that seems unlikely as it would leave Seattle with no center and also because Seattle is probably a wee bit more worried about Ray-Ray right now.

I say sign Keon Clark to a one year make good offer. If he stinks up the joint, he's another expiry at the deadline when things will actually be available.

The problem around the league right now is that everyone thinks they have a chance to make the playoffs. If New Orleans looks like garbage early on, will Magloire and Mash become available? I think the Knicks are best served to sign Keon and wait. Though, I admit, with Baker on board, it will be crowded. But who is the backup 5 right now? Baker? Ew.
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fishmike
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9/7/2004  11:27 AM
here's the thing... people are confusing need talent. I will certainly concede Keon represents a need... frontcourt athleticism and length, but he's not talented... plain and simple. Kurt, Vin, JYD, my mom... these people are simply FAR more talented than Keon.

To me Keon is a guy that thrived in a system for a short period of time, but has very low skills/fundamentals. A couple other guys that might sound familiar are Eisely and Anderson... both very good role players for a very good Jazz team (Keon's Rapter squads were good).

Take them out of that system and you know where I go with the rest.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Vmart
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9/7/2004  11:47 AM
Posted by fishmike:

here's the thing... people are confusing need talent. I will certainly concede Keon represents a need... frontcourt athleticism and length, but he's not talented... plain and simple. Kurt, Vin, JYD, my mom... these people are simply FAR more talented than Keon.

To me Keon is a guy that thrived in a system for a short period of time, but has very low skills/fundamentals. A couple other guys that might sound familiar are Eisely and Anderson... both very good role players for a very good Jazz team (Keon's Rapter squads were good).


Take them out of that system and you know where I go with the rest.

I guess the only thing that might be going for Keon is that he would team up with the coach that he performed the best for. He knows Lenny and might know his system well enough to get back to being that difference maker type of player that he was with the Raptors. What was his average 11 points 7 rebounds in limited time along with 2 blocks, not bad if you think about it.
Marv
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9/7/2004  12:11 PM
Posted by Vmart:


I guess the only thing that might be going for Keon is that he would team up with the coach that he performed the best for. He knows Lenny and might know his system well enough to get back to being that difference maker type of player that he was with the Raptors. What was his average 11 points 7 rebounds in limited time along with 2 blocks, not bad if you think about it.

Agree with you. He's still young enough, only a couple of seasons away from having produced those numbers, will come cheap. Why not let him compete for minutes? Not that much to lose and potentially a lot to gain.
Bonn1997
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9/7/2004  12:39 PM
Posted by fishmike:

has anyone actually seen Keon play in the last 3 years?

Keon sucks... I swear someone heard "poor mans Camby" and now its "Losing this kid to Cleveland would be devastating to us."

This guy a had a good 1-2 year run and has fizled. He's never had better than YMCA skills. He's a good athlete that hasnt been able to get on the court and he's never been serious about basketball... only making millions and smoking weed.

Please... why dont we target Shawn Kemp?
Sounds like YOU haven't seen him play in 3 years. You're the only person I've ever heard say they were unimpressed with how he played at Sacramento when he was even given a little consideration for 6th man of the year.
fishmike
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9/7/2004  12:48 PM
I remember that year... he made such an impact for them they didnt even pick up his option.

Hey... if you really think Keon is the answer everyone is entitled to their opinion. Ive never seen such enthusiasm for a guy going to turn 30 next season and whos had one good season 3 years ago and a bad work ethic. Not the kind of guy I want around the younger guys I'm bringing in.

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"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
toodarkmark
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9/7/2004  1:07 PM
Keon Clark played so well for Sacramento 2 years ago that they traded him along with TWO 2nd round picks for ONE 2nd round pick from the Jazz. Such an important contributor! Then he played like 2 games for Utah? I mean if he wants to come here and be an 11th man for a 1.9Mil One year deal, by all means. But seriously, he's not doing much for us.

And Kurt Thomas may be 6-9 235lbs, but two years ago he was very effective against centers. Sure he'll be burned by taller centers, but this league is filled with weak centers. I think 22 teams are looking for a decent starting center, and most start power forwards at Center. There just aren't many good centers left.

You dont start a player because he is an inch taller and 15 pounds heavier. NO center in this league is going to stop Shaq no matter how much they weigh, and no one is going to block Yao Mings shot no matter how tall they are.

I don't care what people think. People are stupid. - Charles Barkley
fishmike
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9/7/2004  1:40 PM
Posted by toodarkmark:
And Kurt Thomas may be 6-9 235lbs, but two years ago he was very effective against centers.

He was? I seem to remember that team being dead last in the NBA in blocked shots, points in the paint and rebounds. Yes... KT was an integral part of one of the worst frontcourts in NBA history.

Please... I like KT playing C against the other team's 2nd unit. Did anyone watch those games? Please tel me your looking at more than the stats. Those games were close because Spree and Houston kept us close, then we lost every game because we got outrebounded and couldnt defend the paint in the last 5 minutes of every game. PLEASE dont tell me about how effective KT (I was almost an all star) was at center. I watched every one of those games. I have never seen a player average almost a double double and have less impact.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
diderotn
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9/7/2004  1:43 PM
Thank you....
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Bonn1997
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9/7/2004  2:20 PM
Posted by toodarkmark:

I mean if he wants to come here and be an 11th man for a 1.9Mil One year deal, by all means
That's all anyone was ever saying. I actually would only give him the LLE or what's left of the MLE. You're probably more excited about him than I am if you were planning to give him $1.9 mil.
BTW, Fish, if I were worried about costs and had just added Brad Miller, I probably wouldn't have picked up Keon's contract either. That doesn't mean he's not worth a tiny fraction of the MLE or the LLE on this roster, though (if his ankle has recovered).

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 09/07/2004 14:40:57]
Bonn1997
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9/7/2004  2:39 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by toodarkmark:
And Kurt Thomas may be 6-9 235lbs, but two years ago he was very effective against centers.

He was? I seem to remember that team being dead last in the NBA in blocked shots, points in the paint and rebounds.

Stop making things up, Fish. The worst starting centers in the NBA get around .3 blocks a game (like Foster in Indiana). Kurt gets about an average number of blocks for a starting center. At around 8 rbs a game, he is very far from last in rebounds! He's about average in rebounding for centers, getting roughly more boards a game than centers like Zyrdrunas Illgauskas, Samuel Dalembert, Rasho Nesterovic, Mark Blount, Theo Ratliff (just to name a few). You're right that he has a poor low-post game. That's why I'd start Kurt only if Sweetney was also starting. (If either your 4 or 5 is a good low post player, then you want the other player to be able to hit mid range jumpers to spread out the defense.)
fishmike
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9/7/2004  2:50 PM
I'm not making up anything. People are confusing a respectable stat line with respectable play. Now in fairness to KT the other frontcourt players were Spree for about 40 minutes a game and Spoon, Doleac and Harrington. Thats pretty bad, but if you want to go for complete accuracy that Knick team (KT's best year as a pro) was among the 3 worst teams in rebounds, blocks and points in the paint.

Kurt got alot of rebounds but NEVER controlled the glass.
Kurt had some blocked shots but NEVER intimidated anyone from scoring in the paint.
Kurt scored close to 15 a game because teams knew if they shut down Houston and Spre KT's jumpers werent going to beat you.

I do think KT is a serviceable backup and good role player at both spots. Starting him to me is a step backwards. Nazr doesnt have to be a star or the future. Heck, if he started and continued to average the 10/8/1 on 58% FGs he will have great value moving forward... much more than KT.

No matter what way I look at it starting KT is moving in the wrong direction. keeping him around as a veteran backup is great. I dont see him as a starter at any position in this league. Never has been, at this point never will be.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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9/7/2004  2:56 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I'm not making up anything. People are confusing a respectable stat line with respectable play. Now in fairness to KT the other frontcourt players were Spree for about 40 minutes a game and Spoon, Doleac and Harrington. Thats pretty bad, but if you want to go for complete accuracy that Knick team (KT's best year as a pro) was among the 3 worst teams in rebounds, blocks and points in the paint.

Kurt got alot of rebounds but NEVER controlled the glass.
Kurt had some blocked shots but NEVER intimidated anyone from scoring in the paint.
Kurt scored close to 15 a game because teams knew if they shut down Houston and Spre KT's jumpers werent going to beat you.

I do think KT is a serviceable backup and good role player at both spots. Starting him to me is a step backwards. Nazr doesnt have to be a star or the future. Heck, if he started and continued to average the 10/8/1 on 58% FGs he will have great value moving forward... much more than KT.

No matter what way I look at it starting KT is moving in the wrong direction. keeping him around as a veteran backup is great. I dont see him as a starter at any position in this league. Never has been, at this point never will be.

I don't disagree. I do think Isiah may start Kurt to keep his trade value up. I'd love to see Sweetney beat him in camp, but the thing about Kurt is, he's just wiley enough to beat out Sweets. Kurt isn't a gifted leaper anymore, but he's still smart, dammit. I'd love to get a gifted leaper in here, but as we all agree they are in short supply. Hence, I say, sign Keon to a one year make good contract.
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Nalod
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9/7/2004  2:58 PM
a few years back when laydog was courting Keon he flat out said he does not want to play in a big city, and new york is the mack daddy of big cities.

Does he have such limited choices he is willing to compromise now and play for NY? Or are we just "feeling" this is a good thing for him to do?
fishmike
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9/7/2004  3:02 PM
I remember that also.. he also could have gone somewhere and gotten a bigger role. Instead he went somewhere he knew he would come off the bench.

Here's how I see it: Why sign a guy with a bad work ethic who has little or no spot in the rotation to sit around, loaf, get high and get paid a couple mill when your trying to develop young players you can build a future around in Sweetney, Crawford and god willing Ariza?

How does this help us?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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9/7/2004  4:55 PM
Posted by Nalod:

a few years back when laydog was courting Keon he flat out said he does not want to play in a big city, and new york is the mack daddy of big cities.
I'd make up any excuse I could think of to avoid playing under a Layden-lead team!
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