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You still have Faith in the FO?
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VCoug
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2/7/2018  7:07 PM
Do I still have faith in this front office? When did I ever have faith in this front office? When we handed out $18M/year to a league average SG last Summer? Because we acted like a borderline competent by not immediately giving in to Melo and waiting until he expanded his list of teams he would accept a trade to? What exactly had this FO done to engender faith to begin with?
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GustavBahler
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2/7/2018  7:17 PM
VCoug wrote:Do I still have faith in this front office? When did I ever have faith in this front office? When we handed out $18M/year to a league average SG last Summer? Because we acted like a borderline competent by not immediately giving in to Melo and waiting until he expanded his list of teams he would accept a trade to? What exactly had this FO done to engender faith to begin with?

Never been a Mills fan. Awful, awful, exec with the Knicks. Not that any other team would hire him.

Having said that, I dont have a problem with the job Perry is doing considering the mess, the dysfunction, that was left for him to sweep away.

I believe its much too early to call it when it comes to Perry. We should know where he is taking the franchise over the summer. Drafting, trading, signing FAs. Lots to evaluate.

VCoug
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2/7/2018  7:32 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
VCoug wrote:Do I still have faith in this front office? When did I ever have faith in this front office? When we handed out $18M/year to a league average SG last Summer? Because we acted like a borderline competent by not immediately giving in to Melo and waiting until he expanded his list of teams he would accept a trade to? What exactly had this FO done to engender faith to begin with?

Never been a Mills fan. Awful, awful, exec with the Knicks. Not that any other team would hire him.

Having said that, I dont have a problem with the job Perry is doing considering the mess, the dysfunction, that was left for him to sweep away.

I believe its much too early to call it when it comes to Perry. We should know where he is taking the franchise over the summer. Drafting, trading, signing FAs. Lots to evaluate.

The fact that Mills has been a Dolan favorite for so many years should be all anyone needs to know about him.

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Nalod
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2/7/2018  7:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/7/2018  8:00 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:This management team didn't pick Frank. Mills just didn't throw him under the bus or lessen his value.

Maybe, but he has no draft history to look at, so when you support the pick, your essentially throwing your own self under the bus

Still WAY too early to be closing the book on this draft. You don’t know who is going to end up being the best players from this draft!!! Frank is one of the 2 youngest players. It’s gonna take more than a rookie season to know what he ultimately turns out to be.

As for Perry and Mills it’s also way too early to gauge them as well. Gotta see what they do from here. Next 24 hrs. Then the draft and free agency.

Since mills has been back with the knicks we have been out of the playoffs by january, when he was let go before, we were back in the playoffs..Perry may have a good relationship with players, but his resume is not even close to being impressive, it's actually pretty bad.

Frank is a role player, and will be for a while. Most scouts, analyst, media and fans have come to grips with that. He's not some franchise changer..

I respect you being one of the most optimistic fans i've ever heard, but reality is what it is..


WTF has gone right since mills have been associated with the knicks?

He came in right after the 54 win season, and it's been a nightmare ever since, how can you overlook that is beyond me, prior to that he was part of the I T regime

Steve Mills was MSG president previously. Not day to day with knicks.
Mills had nothing to do with Bargnani trade. he was not employed by knicks.
Your making stuff up about frank.
Your making stuff up about Mills.
Your perspective is nothing changes. under that guise, we should not expect more from you.

He was the gm the year after the 54 win season and he was awful at the job.

Grunwald was fired because........
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
newyorker4ever
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2/7/2018  8:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/7/2018  8:41 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Picking frank over better prospects(yes mills co signed on the draft pick)

The willy trade was the worse, a totally waste of an asset, twitter and FB is going nuts with laughter.

The melo trade was sub par at best and has solve nothing at all, it actually created tension in the locker room, and has the coach looking super suspect.

Are you looking forward to them drafting another project.


Multiple players frustrated over PT because the roster is completely redundant

The one time that I'm praying that DOLAN cleans house

This was the last straw, or shall he wait for KP to say trade me, because they seem to honor every trade request (rightfully so)

It's just a matter of time


Why wouldn't anyone have faith in these guys when they haven't even been given a chance to do anything significant yet? We're in pretty much a complete rebuild which i guess you and some others have already forgotten for some odd reason. It's gonna take years to get this right and that's only if they stay on track with doing it the right way which is not taking on any veteran contracts and only taking on young players and having good drafts. Knicks fans have been screaming for years for us to get a GM that will do it the right way but as soon as we get one that says he's going to, some people are ready to get rid of him half way through his first year because the rebuild isn't already done in half a season and we're losing games. It's absolutely ridiculous. Anyone that wants this done the right way better have some serious patience cause it's gonna take a while and there's gonna be a lot of losing along the way.

knickscity
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2/7/2018  9:05 PM
Knicks will do what they always do.
wargames
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2/7/2018  9:18 PM
Nope
knicks1248
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2/7/2018  9:44 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:This management team didn't pick Frank. Mills just didn't throw him under the bus or lessen his value.

Maybe, but he has no draft history to look at, so when you support the pick, your essentially throwing your own self under the bus

Still WAY too early to be closing the book on this draft. You don’t know who is going to end up being the best players from this draft!!! Frank is one of the 2 youngest players. It’s gonna take more than a rookie season to know what he ultimately turns out to be.

As for Perry and Mills it’s also way too early to gauge them as well. Gotta see what they do from here. Next 24 hrs. Then the draft and free agency.

Since mills has been back with the knicks we have been out of the playoffs by january, when he was let go before, we were back in the playoffs..Perry may have a good relationship with players, but his resume is not even close to being impressive, it's actually pretty bad.

Frank is a role player, and will be for a while. Most scouts, analyst, media and fans have come to grips with that. He's not some franchise changer..

I respect you being one of the most optimistic fans i've ever heard, but reality is what it is..


WTF has gone right since mills have been associated with the knicks?

He came in right after the 54 win season, and it's been a nightmare ever since, how can you overlook that is beyond me, prior to that he was part of the I T regime

Steve Mills was MSG president previously. Not day to day with knicks.
Mills had nothing to do with Bargnani trade. he was not employed by knicks.
Your making stuff up about frank.
Your making stuff up about Mills.
Your perspective is nothing changes. under that guise, we should not expect more from you.

He was the gm the year after the 54 win season and he was awful at the job.

All he had to do was google it to confirm the facts..He just likes to disagree with me on everything

ES
LivingLegend
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2/7/2018  10:14 PM
So if Willy is so great and the rest of the NBA knows it but Perry /Mills don’t.....why did NOBODY offer up more than 2 2nds?

It’s not due to devaluing him because evaluators would still grab the talent if the talent is cheap.

Bottom line as in 9o% of trades....we got what the market offered

magicTs
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2/7/2018  10:16 PM
Following on from our latest catastrophe I see the Rangers are trying to keep stride for stride in the ineptitude stakes....currently 6-1 down at the Garden to the Bruins! At this point they'd be as well letting Billy Joel play 7 nights a week and being done with both sorry ass franchises.
Jmpasq
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2/8/2018  5:49 AM
CrushAlot wrote:This management team didn't pick Frank. Mills just didn't throw him under the bus or lessen his value.

He was the frickin GM

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
TripleThreat
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2/8/2018  6:31 AM
knicks1248 wrote:Picking frank over better prospects(yes mills co signed on the draft pick)

The willy trade was the worse, a totally waste of an asset, twitter and FB is going nuts with laughter.

The melo trade was sub par at best and has solve nothing at all, it actually created tension in the locker room, and has the coach looking super suspect.

Are you looking forward to them drafting another project.


Multiple players frustrated over PT because the roster is completely redundant

The one time that I'm praying that DOLAN cleans house

This was the last straw, or shall he wait for KP to say trade me, because they seem to honor every trade request (rightfully so)

It's just a matter of time


I don't think it's too complicated with what the Knicks are trying to do.

A) Embrace "positionless" basketball
B) Embrace a defensive culture and hope that offense rounds out from players with actual defensive pedigree

Ntilikina can, by raw talent, defend four positions if he hits his ceiling. That's very flexible. He doesn't need to be an All Star, he just needs to develop an effective three point shot.

Hernangomez was never going to be an effective rim protector. While I think it would have been better to hold onto him, the reality is that pivots have been devalued around the league. It's wait and see until those two 2nd round picks are made

Kanter was a compromise against a NTC and the need for a salary match. You can't hang Scott Perry on this one.

Jackson/Melo left a huge mess. It will take time to change.

The Warriors did not get where they are right away. Actually, after picking Curry, they made some pretty bonehead picks. But they reached for Bogut and Iggy, despite massive criticism, for wanting to embrace a defensive culture.

My take is to give Perry 3 years and see what happens. If anyone wants immediate results, honestly, they aren't looking at how the NBA tends to operate, which is slowly. Even the Heat's Big Three took years of planning to start before it unfolded. You can only build through the draft and you are limited by how much you can draft in any given year.

The sky is not falling. Some of you dudes just sound like women.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
arkrud
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2/8/2018  8:28 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Picking frank over better prospects(yes mills co signed on the draft pick)

The willy trade was the worse, a totally waste of an asset, twitter and FB is going nuts with laughter.

The melo trade was sub par at best and has solve nothing at all, it actually created tension in the locker room, and has the coach looking super suspect.

Are you looking forward to them drafting another project.


Multiple players frustrated over PT because the roster is completely redundant

The one time that I'm praying that DOLAN cleans house

This was the last straw, or shall he wait for KP to say trade me, because they seem to honor every trade request (rightfully so)

It's just a matter of time


I don't think it's too complicated with what the Knicks are trying to do.

A) Embrace "positionless" basketball
B) Embrace a defensive culture and hope that offense rounds out from players with actual defensive pedigree

Ntilikina can, by raw talent, defend four positions if he hits his ceiling. That's very flexible. He doesn't need to be an All Star, he just needs to develop an effective three point shot.

Hernangomez was never going to be an effective rim protector. While I think it would have been better to hold onto him, the reality is that pivots have been devalued around the league. It's wait and see until those two 2nd round picks are made

Kanter was a compromise against a NTC and the need for a salary match. You can't hang Scott Perry on this one.

Jackson/Melo left a huge mess. It will take time to change.

The Warriors did not get where they are right away. Actually, after picking Curry, they made some pretty bonehead picks. But they reached for Bogut and Iggy, despite massive criticism, for wanting to embrace a defensive culture.

My take is to give Perry 3 years and see what happens. If anyone wants immediate results, honestly, they aren't looking at how the NBA tends to operate, which is slowly. Even the Heat's Big Three took years of planning to start before it unfolded. You can only build through the draft and you are limited by how much you can draft in any given year.

The sky is not falling. Some of you dudes just sound like women.

No, they are not like woman.
Woman are much better that that.
It is great to be excitable but not about doom and gloom but about the possibilities.
This team is in position that there is no alternative to rebuild. Beautiful!!!

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
MS
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2/8/2018  8:48 AM
That’s literally how embarrassing this garbage franchise has become when we are happy our gym didn’t just rush to make a terrible deal and acquire Ryan Anderson and allow Melo to hold the franchise hostage for the second time.

Lou Williams just signed a 3 year 24MM deal and he’s better than THJR. Still hard to justify the contract we have . He’s been injured most of the year and still makes boneheaded decisions night after night. Is he a conerstone? No. He looks like a great 4th option. Lakers and Sixers both put 1 year deals on the table. Evans who was a better player signed for $3.1MM. The Knicks have Ron ****ing Baker 2 years 10MM that can’t be stressed enough. We didn’t have room for Holiday on a bargain contract, but let’s give the 15th player on the bench a guaranteed deal that eats into our cap.

Perry had some strong moves with Jack and Beasley, the Melo trade was solid for the Knicks.

But, part of running a competent front office is creating a roster that allows for defined roles. Part of the reason Cleveland is terrible is they have Thomas, Rose, Wade, Shumpert, Calderon, JR, Crowder, all redundant pieces. We overloaded the front court and didn’t think to bring in a PG and were lucky Jack turned out to be competent.

Frank, the jury is out, but 19 year olds make athletic plays, Ive yet to see Frank take it to the rack with purpose. So right now the faith is on hold for the next 24 hours.

If this team decides to play hard and **** up our draft position and fall in the draft like we do every year, this team is what it is again. Groundhog Day.

Rebuild, bring in overpriced veterans, sign big men with injury risks, Dice, Curry, Amare, Noah. Compete, lose at chance at Towns, compete lose a chance at Tatum, Fox. This is our last best chance to bring in talent before the 2019 free agent glass.

Time is up.

fishmike
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2/8/2018  8:55 AM
LivingLegend wrote:So if Willy is so great and the rest of the NBA knows it but Perry /Mills don’t.....why did NOBODY offer up more than 2 2nds?

It’s not due to devaluing him because evaluators would still grab the talent if the talent is cheap.

Bottom line as in 9o% of trades....we got what the market offered

WARNING WARNING! LOGIC ALERT! LOGIC ALERT!
fishmike
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2/8/2018  9:18 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Picking frank over better prospects(yes mills co signed on the draft pick)

The willy trade was the worse, a totally waste of an asset, twitter and FB is going nuts with laughter.

The melo trade was sub par at best and has solve nothing at all, it actually created tension in the locker room, and has the coach looking super suspect.

Are you looking forward to them drafting another project.


Multiple players frustrated over PT because the roster is completely redundant

The one time that I'm praying that DOLAN cleans house

This was the last straw, or shall he wait for KP to say trade me, because they seem to honor every trade request (rightfully so)

It's just a matter of time


I don't think it's too complicated with what the Knicks are trying to do.

A) Embrace "positionless" basketball
B) Embrace a defensive culture and hope that offense rounds out from players with actual defensive pedigree

Ntilikina can, by raw talent, defend four positions if he hits his ceiling. That's very flexible. He doesn't need to be an All Star, he just needs to develop an effective three point shot.

Hernangomez was never going to be an effective rim protector. While I think it would have been better to hold onto him, the reality is that pivots have been devalued around the league. It's wait and see until those two 2nd round picks are made

Kanter was a compromise against a NTC and the need for a salary match. You can't hang Scott Perry on this one.

Jackson/Melo left a huge mess. It will take time to change.

The Warriors did not get where they are right away. Actually, after picking Curry, they made some pretty bonehead picks. But they reached for Bogut and Iggy, despite massive criticism, for wanting to embrace a defensive culture.

My take is to give Perry 3 years and see what happens. If anyone wants immediate results, honestly, they aren't looking at how the NBA tends to operate, which is slowly. Even the Heat's Big Three took years of planning to start before it unfolded. You can only build through the draft and you are limited by how much you can draft in any given year.

The sky is not falling. Some of you dudes just sound like women.

this is a fantastic post and so spot on.
I like Willy but there is no perspective here, only emotion.
knicks1248
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2/8/2018  10:13 AM
fishmike wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Picking frank over better prospects(yes mills co signed on the draft pick)

The willy trade was the worse, a totally waste of an asset, twitter and FB is going nuts with laughter.

The melo trade was sub par at best and has solve nothing at all, it actually created tension in the locker room, and has the coach looking super suspect.

Are you looking forward to them drafting another project.


Multiple players frustrated over PT because the roster is completely redundant

The one time that I'm praying that DOLAN cleans house

This was the last straw, or shall he wait for KP to say trade me, because they seem to honor every trade request (rightfully so)

It's just a matter of time


I don't think it's too complicated with what the Knicks are trying to do.

A) Embrace "positionless" basketball
B) Embrace a defensive culture and hope that offense rounds out from players with actual defensive pedigree

Ntilikina can, by raw talent, defend four positions if he hits his ceiling. That's very flexible. He doesn't need to be an All Star, he just needs to develop an effective three point shot.

Hernangomez was never going to be an effective rim protector. While I think it would have been better to hold onto him, the reality is that pivots have been devalued around the league. It's wait and see until those two 2nd round picks are made

Kanter was a compromise against a NTC and the need for a salary match. You can't hang Scott Perry on this one.

Jackson/Melo left a huge mess. It will take time to change.

The Warriors did not get where they are right away. Actually, after picking Curry, they made some pretty bonehead picks. But they reached for Bogut and Iggy, despite massive criticism, for wanting to embrace a defensive culture.

My take is to give Perry 3 years and see what happens. If anyone wants immediate results, honestly, they aren't looking at how the NBA tends to operate, which is slowly. Even the Heat's Big Three took years of planning to start before it unfolded. You can only build through the draft and you are limited by how much you can draft in any given year.

The sky is not falling. Some of you dudes just sound like women.

this is a fantastic post and so spot on.
I like Willy but there is no perspective here, only emotion.


We have been saying be patient every yr for the last 4 yrs

Now this front office is going out asking for 1st 1st picks for the fckng likes of LEE and KOQ, who In their right mind would do that? There's hardly any team with cap space other than a few lottery bound teams, you think they will sacrifice young players, cap space, or picks.

Mills/perry are not moving the needle with these below avg trades or their thought process. The minute you waived the white flag and give into losing, your culture is shot.

ES
Nalod
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2/8/2018  11:48 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:This management team didn't pick Frank. Mills just didn't throw him under the bus or lessen his value.

Maybe, but he has no draft history to look at, so when you support the pick, your essentially throwing your own self under the bus

Still WAY too early to be closing the book on this draft. You don’t know who is going to end up being the best players from this draft!!! Frank is one of the 2 youngest players. It’s gonna take more than a rookie season to know what he ultimately turns out to be.

As for Perry and Mills it’s also way too early to gauge them as well. Gotta see what they do from here. Next 24 hrs. Then the draft and free agency.

Since mills has been back with the knicks we have been out of the playoffs by january, when he was let go before, we were back in the playoffs..Perry may have a good relationship with players, but his resume is not even close to being impressive, it's actually pretty bad.

Frank is a role player, and will be for a while. Most scouts, analyst, media and fans have come to grips with that. He's not some franchise changer..

I respect you being one of the most optimistic fans i've ever heard, but reality is what it is..


WTF has gone right since mills have been associated with the knicks?

He came in right after the 54 win season, and it's been a nightmare ever since, how can you overlook that is beyond me, prior to that he was part of the I T regime

Failure is part of every success story.
You assume execs are like athletes and by a certain age are what they are. You see Frank in his current state and only see him today.
Scott Layden succeeded in Utah, failed for many reasons in NY, then became an assistant coach, Assistant GM to Pop and now is the GM in Minny.
Pop thought enough of him to hire.
Mills was MSG president. He came back when Grunwald was canned. Mills was not the architect of the decline.
Read up on the reorganization process that hired Mills. The mistake in retrospect was Dolan was starphuched by Phil. Really, it was not a bad idea but the execution was awful.
Phil was president and Mills was GM but you have to understand the jobs are interchangeable and Phil was doing the basketball stuff. GM's historically did a lot of other things besides player personal but its more specialized. My point, Mills has not been the basketball guy exclusively. Its why Perry was hired.
Mills sets the agenda and minds the cap.
Was the 54 win team sustainable? Not at all. Bargiani was either Grunwalds idea or Dolans. I think the latter is my guess.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
fwk00
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2/8/2018  12:38 PM
MS wrote:That’s literally how embarrassing this garbage franchise has become when we are happy our gym didn’t just rush to make a terrible deal and acquire Ryan Anderson and allow Melo to hold the franchise hostage for the second time.

Lou Williams just signed a 3 year 24MM deal and he’s better than THJR. Still hard to justify the contract we have . He’s been injured most of the year and still makes boneheaded decisions night after night. Is he a conerstone? No. He looks like a great 4th option. Lakers and Sixers both put 1 year deals on the table. Evans who was a better player signed for $3.1MM. The Knicks have Ron ****ing Baker 2 years 10MM that can’t be stressed enough. We didn’t have room for Holiday on a bargain contract, but let’s give the 15th player on the bench a guaranteed deal that eats into our cap.

Perry had some strong moves with Jack and Beasley, the Melo trade was solid for the Knicks.

But, part of running a competent front office is creating a roster that allows for defined roles. Part of the reason Cleveland is terrible is they have Thomas, Rose, Wade, Shumpert, Calderon, JR, Crowder, all redundant pieces. We overloaded the front court and didn’t think to bring in a PG and were lucky Jack turned out to be competent.

Frank, the jury is out, but 19 year olds make athletic plays, Ive yet to see Frank take it to the rack with purpose. So right now the faith is on hold for the next 24 hours.

If this team decides to play hard and **** up our draft position and fall in the draft like we do every year, this team is what it is again. Groundhog Day.

Rebuild, bring in overpriced veterans, sign big men with injury risks, Dice, Curry, Amare, Noah. Compete, lose at chance at Towns, compete lose a chance at Tatum, Fox. This is our last best chance to bring in talent before the 2019 free agent glass.

Time is up.

This response is to many of the preceding posts;

Trip, Ntilikina is our remaining Unicorn. Once his potential begins to be realized he will have been the cream of last year's lottery crop. Mills went to Europe to scout him and the FO as a consensus picked him. The inevitable parade of armchair Nostradamuses claiming other picks coulda/shoulda/woulda been better are not worth the noise they make.

Kanter is a pleasant by-product of the toxic Melo-pit.

Jackson did not leave "a huge mess". Melo was garbage and is no longer here. Phil's tenure managed a rebuild of sorts under the covers - incomplete, yes, but effective nonetheless.

MS - THJ, I think is one of those nepotistic signings very much along the lines of Aus-thin Rivers in LA. For a while I was willing to eat crow when THJ was playing well but the ugly underside of him continues to make me queasy in a bad way.

Beasley is a Knick based on Kurt Rambis' advocacy to sign him. Rambis bashers hate to give credit where credit is due but that's where Perry got the notion. Jack was blind luck.

Let me say this again, Ntilikina is our remaining Unicorn. This team needs to be rebuilt around Ntilikina rather than any pipe-dreams about KP - our Unicorn with a broken horn. KP may or may not come back as a compelling force but wasting two years to find out he isn't would be adding insult to injury.

Our messed up draft positions in the last two drafts allowed the Knicks to draft two of the very best players in either draft. had they had the first pick, we'd be pissed with what came home. Knicks need to play basketball and let the chips fall as they do. we still have Isiah and Gaines for the sniff tests.

Trading for overpriced assets will succeed or fail based on the wisdom of the trade. Over-the-hill former stars would be a disaster. Young up-and-coming veterans, not so much.


K1248 - Part of the salesmanship in trading is asking for the sky. Ainge is asking for a blue-chip vet AND a first-rounder for Smart. If he gets it he's a genius. You ripping Mills/Perry for the asking price - WHY? No, seriously,... WHY? What's to lose? Debbie Downer is an optimist compared to your drivel.

Nalod - If I remember correctly, Bargnani was the by-product of the Knicks FO being held hostage by the Player agency running amok. Phil gets no credit for anything here but he showed them the door and cleaned up the FO nicely much to the chagrin of the media, insider information leakers, and the entourage of idiots surrounding MSG.

franco12
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2/8/2018  12:54 PM
fishmike wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:So if Willy is so great and the rest of the NBA knows it but Perry /Mills don’t.....why did NOBODY offer up more than 2 2nds?

It’s not due to devaluing him because evaluators would still grab the talent if the talent is cheap.

Bottom line as in 9o% of trades....we got what the market offered

WARNING WARNING! LOGIC ALERT! LOGIC ALERT!

I can't believe we couldn't have down better. And how exactly do we know Perry didn't just find the one place with as much depth ahead of him as here to stick it to him?

I want to believe our GM wasn't acting vengefully. I do.

Just, I have a hard time getting excited about two future first round draft picks after what I saw Willy do here last year.

You still have Faith in the FO?

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