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Knicks ahead of the Class?
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BRIGGS
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9/5/2004  10:18 PM
i dont know what you classify as big and athletic--but those are all big athletic players for their positions- i mean i feel i know enough about basketball to convey that these players really overhauled their roster and gives them much better size athletiscm defense roster depth at various positions --this is what philly needed desperately to go along with the players they had who were bad or injury prone. this will help philly immensely--you have two effecient athletic bulls in williamson and skinner you have two guys who can fly on the break with supreme athletiscm and size from the wing 2-3 and a solid defensive PG in ollie who also has nice size. so now philly can withstand some of the injuries they had + they can play more guys cutting down on the minutes some of the starters log.
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BRIGGS
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9/5/2004  10:23 PM
i was actually answering someone else's comment, but you just misread the stats i provided. he averaged 3.0 assits and 1.3 steals and yes he has averaged 1.5 in an entire season afew years back----- in fact he has averaged 1.2 steals per game his ENTIRE 10 yr career.
RIP Crushalot😞
Bonn1997
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9/5/2004  10:36 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

i was actually answering someone else's comment, but you just misread the stats i provided. he averaged 3.0 assits and 1.3 steals and yes he has averaged 1.5 in an entire season afew years back----- in fact he has averaged 1.2 steals per game his ENTIRE 10 yr career.
Oh okay. I'm used to you making up numbers, but this time you didn't.
Marv
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9/5/2004  11:23 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

lets skip last year because both players were injured and go back just the last 3-

Big dog pts per game 21.2 reb 6.6 asis 3.0 steals 1.3 shooting % 45.8%

Houston 20.5 3.2 reb 2.5 asis steals 0.7 shoot @44.3%

Big Dog's stats are better but I don't like the way he's played the last several years. I don't think he was a positive force on those Milwaukee teams. I don't think he came through in the playoffs. I think his rep around the league got progressively worse. It's just my opinion, but I think Houston's been the better player.
Silverfuel
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9/5/2004  11:37 PM
Posted by Marv:

Big Dog's stats are better but I don't like the way he's played the last several years. I don't think he was a positive force on those Milwaukee teams. I don't think he came through in the playoffs. I think his rep around the league got progressively worse. It's just my opinion, but I think Houston's been the better player.
What exactly have you seen that leads you to believe that Houston is a better player than Big Dog or that his game has improved? If anything, his jumpshot will be worse because of his injury!!

Eve though its ur opinion, I think you should consider what it is you like about Houston? Is it that you really like his jump shot? Or you think his jump looks good? or that he is only a jump shooter? or that he has learned to jump and shoot at the same time? Two things at once, thats a challenge?

The 6.6 rebs mean something even if they look just like stats. He is a good FT shooter right? Even Spree, the guy that played out of position for H2O had more FTs. Almost 100 more. ONE HUNDRED. Thats because all he does is be lazy and catch a shoot.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
simrud
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9/6/2004  12:15 AM
Andre Iguloda 6-6 215
Brian Skinner 6-9 265
Corliss Williamson 6-7 245
Kevin Ollie 6-3 195
Kendrick Brown 6-7 225

I don't agree with you BRIGGS. Sixers can challenge us, but not due to these bums, rather if AI stays healthy and the rest of them stay somewhat out of the injury land.

Iguadola is just a rook, he wount do much.

Skinner is a nice role player. Something like 6 6 .5 of the bench.

Williamson is close to the end of the line. And he is not athletic at all. The days of the big nasty are long gone. He can barely get of the ground.

Ollie is garbage. One of the worst PG's in the league. Can't shoot for his life and is old as dirt. He was pathetic in Cleveland. And he was pathetic before the Cavs.

Brown is simply a bust. Has done nothign in the league. Noting at all. Sixers will be good if AI, Kenny Thomas, Big Dog, Marck Jackson, and Delambert stay healthy. Not because they added these bums.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Bonn1997
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9/6/2004  1:18 AM
Posted by simrud:

Andre Iguloda 6-6 215
Brian Skinner 6-9 265
Corliss Williamson 6-7 245
Kevin Ollie 6-3 195
Kendrick Brown 6-7 225

I don't agree with you BRIGGS. Sixers can challenge us, but not due to these bums, rather if AI stays healthy and the rest of them stay somewhat out of the injury land.

Iguadola is just a rook, he wount do much.

Skinner is a nice role player. Something like 6 6 .5 of the bench.

Williamson is close to the end of the line. And he is not athletic at all. The days of the big nasty are long gone. He can barely get of the ground.

Ollie is garbage. One of the worst PG's in the league. Can't shoot for his life and is old as dirt. He was pathetic in Cleveland. And he was pathetic before the Cavs.

Brown is simply a bust. Has done nothign in the league. Noting at all. Sixers will be good if AI, Kenny Thomas, Big Dog, Marck Jackson, and Delambert stay healthy. Not because they added these bums.
I'd agree with all that. Williamson is a nice role player, but he's NOT athletic. I'd say the worst case scenario for Sweetney is that he becomes the next Williamson.

Ollie's nothing to get excited about. If you think Ollie qualifies as an athletic G with size, then Crawford must qualify as the next Michael Jordan.

Skinner's a nice role player like you said; nothing more. Brown's a bust. Andre's a rookie who would probably wouldn't be a lottery pick it hadn't been such a weak draft
crzymdups
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9/6/2004  1:55 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by simrud:

Andre Iguloda 6-6 215
Brian Skinner 6-9 265
Corliss Williamson 6-7 245
Kevin Ollie 6-3 195
Kendrick Brown 6-7 225

I don't agree with you BRIGGS. Sixers can challenge us, but not due to these bums, rather if AI stays healthy and the rest of them stay somewhat out of the injury land.

Iguadola is just a rook, he wount do much.

Skinner is a nice role player. Something like 6 6 .5 of the bench.

Williamson is close to the end of the line. And he is not athletic at all. The days of the big nasty are long gone. He can barely get of the ground.

Ollie is garbage. One of the worst PG's in the league. Can't shoot for his life and is old as dirt. He was pathetic in Cleveland. And he was pathetic before the Cavs.

Brown is simply a bust. Has done nothign in the league. Noting at all. Sixers will be good if AI, Kenny Thomas, Big Dog, Marck Jackson, and Delambert stay healthy. Not because they added these bums.
I'd agree with all that. Williamson is a nice role player, but he's NOT athletic. I'd say the worst case scenario for Sweetney is that he becomes the next Williamson.

Ollie's nothing to get excited about. If you think Ollie qualifies as an athletic G with size, then Crawford must qualify as the next Michael Jordan.

Skinner's a nice role player like you said; nothing more. Brown's a bust. Andre's a rookie who would probably wouldn't be a lottery pick it hadn't been such a weak draft

Wow. Typical Knicks fans here. Overrate your own prospects while downplaying other teams. We would be crying tears of joy if we had Igoudala. Just a rook? He was a lottery pick from Arizona - a school that has produced RJ, Arenas, Damon and Bibby amongst many others! He's a fantastic wing player. He's the real deal. He's what everyone WANTS Ariza to be.

Willie Green is a fantastic young SG. Did you all even watch him last year? He's great and played MUCH better than Sweetney down the stretch. Green will start next to Iverson.

Williamson is a decent role player who was on a championship team last year. Iverson is still young enough to be explosive at times, but seems ready to play the point and be more mature.

Kenny Thomas is better than any power forward we have, going by the numbers. Yes, he's short but that leads to me to...

...Samuel Dalembert. He's fantastic. If we had him, Knicks fans would be predicting a championship run. But in Philly, with Iverson, Green, Igoudala, McKie, Thomas, Williamson and coach Jim O'Brien (one of the best coaches in the league) Samuel Dalembert doesn't even bear mentioning, huh?

Guys, the Sixers have a true defensive coach, a true superstar, a true center and nice depth, most of which is young, athletic and loooong armed. Philly will be tough. The Knicks can be better if they get Keon Clark and Nazr and Sweets come along, but it's going to be closer than people want to believe.
¿ △ ?
Marv
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9/6/2004  8:46 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Marv:

Big Dog's stats are better but I don't like the way he's played the last several years. I don't think he was a positive force on those Milwaukee teams. I don't think he came through in the playoffs. I think his rep around the league got progressively worse. It's just my opinion, but I think Houston's been the better player.
What exactly have you seen that leads you to believe that Houston is a better player than Big Dog or that his game has improved? If anything, his jumpshot will be worse because of his injury!!

Eve though its ur opinion, I think you should consider what it is you like about Houston? Is it that you really like his jump shot? Or you think his jump looks good? or that he is only a jump shooter? or that he has learned to jump and shoot at the same time? Two things at once, thats a challenge?

The 6.6 rebs mean something even if they look just like stats. He is a good FT shooter right? Even Spree, the guy that played out of position for H2O had more FTs. Almost 100 more. ONE HUNDRED. Thats because all he does is be lazy and catch a shoot.

Jump and shoot at the same time? I like that one.

What do you possibly have to crow about Robinson? Oh, that as a forward he averaged 3 1/2 more rebounds a game than a guard? Great. Have any playoff highlights to mention? Would love to hear them. My biggest playoff memory of him is being totally shut down and manhandled by Tracy McGrady with TMac WOOFING in his face the whole time and Big Dog shrinking smaller and smaller. Houston, on the other hand, remember the drive to the hoop to beat Miami , one of the all-time clutch Knick moments? As for Spree's FT's, why is it so amazing for a guy whose game is slashing, to get a little more than one FT per game more (100 in an 82 game season) than a guard whose game is more outside shooting? You're dissing Houston because he's a great shooter? Tha should be even more valued since all we heard during the Olympics was what a great lost art it is. So hate away on H2O all you wnat, but my reponse had been to a poster claiming Dog was better than H20, which I disagreed with. If you have some specific references to why you think Big Dog is better, would love to hear them.
Silverfuel
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9/6/2004  9:10 AM
Posted by Marv:

Houston, on the other hand, remember the drive to the hoop to beat Miami , one of the all-time clutch Knick moments?
Get over that. It was 5 years ago. I was just as happy as every other Knick fan when he hit that running jumper. Its too bad he is now just reserved to shooting jump shots instead of running and driving to the hoop.
As for Spree's FT's, why is it so amazing for a guy whose game is slashing, to get a little more than one FT per game more (100 in an 82 game season) than a guard whose game is more outside shooting?
The problem is that H2O is a jump shooter and thats it. He doesn't try to do anything else. All he does is jump shoot. This is when he has the body to rebound, get assits, defend, blah blah blah....
You're dissing Houston because he's a great shooter?
I am dissing Houston because he doesn't try to do anything more than, catch the ball, fake a drive, fake a drive, fake a drive, pump fake and shoot or catch the ball, turn around and shoot. Dont get me wrong, the dude can shoot, but he doesnt even try and do anything else.
Tha should be even more valued since all we heard during the Olympics was what a great lost art it is.
Thats exactly my point. Houston is a 3rd option guy in an offense. He is the jump shooter than can complement a Franchise and his 2nd option. He is a Jump shooter that can stretch the floor for the Post threat and for the slasher. He is not a slasher. He is not a franchise.
If you have some specific references to why you think Big Dog is better, would love to hear them.
I am really getting tired of going over this again and again with newer and newer posters. I am not comparing Big Dog Robinson to Allan Houston. I dont care about Big Dog Robinson.

I care about Allan Houston because he plays for the team I cheer for 3 times a week! I want him to be a little more helpful to my team than he has been in the past few years. If and When he comes back healthy, I want him to drive more to the hoop and get to FT attempts. Try and rebound the ball 3.5 more times because that is what makes Glen Big Dog Robinson better than him!!

If you still are unable to clearly see my point and please see previous threads that pertain to the same discussion. I am sure most of the regular posters are tired of reading Houston apologists and Houston attackers over and over. Lets save them to trouble of having to weed out this thread because all it has is H2O is a good player because he can jump shoot.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Bonn1997
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9/6/2004  10:25 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by simrud:

Andre Iguloda 6-6 215
Brian Skinner 6-9 265
Corliss Williamson 6-7 245
Kevin Ollie 6-3 195
Kendrick Brown 6-7 225

I don't agree with you BRIGGS. Sixers can challenge us, but not due to these bums, rather if AI stays healthy and the rest of them stay somewhat out of the injury land.

Iguadola is just a rook, he wount do much.

Skinner is a nice role player. Something like 6 6 .5 of the bench.

Williamson is close to the end of the line. And he is not athletic at all. The days of the big nasty are long gone. He can barely get of the ground.

Ollie is garbage. One of the worst PG's in the league. Can't shoot for his life and is old as dirt. He was pathetic in Cleveland. And he was pathetic before the Cavs.

Brown is simply a bust. Has done nothign in the league. Noting at all. Sixers will be good if AI, Kenny Thomas, Big Dog, Marck Jackson, and Delambert stay healthy. Not because they added these bums.
I'd agree with all that. Williamson is a nice role player, but he's NOT athletic. I'd say the worst case scenario for Sweetney is that he becomes the next Williamson.

Ollie's nothing to get excited about. If you think Ollie qualifies as an athletic G with size, then Crawford must qualify as the next Michael Jordan.

Skinner's a nice role player like you said; nothing more. Brown's a bust. Andre's a rookie who would probably wouldn't be a lottery pick it hadn't been such a weak draft

Wow. Typical Knicks fans here. Overrate your own prospects while downplaying other teams. We would be crying tears of joy if we had Igoudala. Just a rook? He was a lottery pick from Arizona - a school that has produced RJ, Arenas, Damon and Bibby amongst many others! He's a fantastic wing player. He's the real deal. He's what everyone WANTS Ariza to be.

Willie Green is a fantastic young SG. Did you all even watch him last year? He's great and played MUCH better than Sweetney down the stretch. Green will start next to Iverson.

Williamson is a decent role player who was on a championship team last year. Iverson is still young enough to be explosive at times, but seems ready to play the point and be more mature.

Kenny Thomas is better than any power forward we have, going by the numbers. Yes, he's short but that leads to me to...

...Samuel Dalembert. He's fantastic. If we had him, Knicks fans would be predicting a championship run. But in Philly, with Iverson, Green, Igoudala, McKie, Thomas, Williamson and coach Jim O'Brien (one of the best coaches in the league) Samuel Dalembert doesn't even bear mentioning, huh?

Guys, the Sixers have a true defensive coach, a true superstar, a true center and nice depth, most of which is young, athletic and loooong armed. Philly will be tough. The Knicks can be better if they get Keon Clark and Nazr and Sweets come along, but it's going to be closer than people want to believe.
Actually, no, Briggs has been known to overestimate every player except players on the Knicks. He got that criticism repeatedly when he posted threads on the outlook for other teams this season. I think Simrud has a very reasonable analysis
Marv
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9/6/2004  11:30 AM
[quote]
Posted by Silverfuel:


Yeah I'm a new poster but if this is your typical way of responding then I'm sure you're right that everyone must be quite tired of your threads.
Silverfuel
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9/6/2004  11:59 AM
Posted by Marv:

[quote]
Posted by Silverfuel:


Yeah I'm a new poster but if this is your typical way of responding then I'm sure you're right that everyone must be quite tired of your threads.
so from my entire post, a big one where I respond to everything you said, you pick out one line that has nothing to do with the Knicks on a knicks board?? Bravo! You must be very proud. Say something about the Knicks or Houston buddy.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Marv
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9/6/2004  12:16 PM
[quote]
Posted by Silverfuel:

[
I am really getting tired of going over this again and again with newer and newer posters. I am not comparing Big Dog Robinson to Allan Houston. I dont care about Big Dog Robinson.

If you go back and check where I came into this thread, it was in response to a specific point BRIGGS had made comparing Robinson and Houston. That was the discussion he and I were having when you came in.
Silverfuel
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9/6/2004  12:45 PM
Posted by Marv:

If you go back and check where I came into this thread, it was in response to a specific point BRIGGS had made comparing Robinson and Houston. That was the discussion he and I were having when you came in.
Ok, lets compare Glen Robinson and Houston in the last 2 years like you said. Check Glen's stats with houstons in their best years. its not just the rebounds, Houston being a guard could not even match Glen's assits/game. Now Big Dog is not MUCH better than Houston but he still is a better player. Not only because he is a better scorer that has more moves, he is also taller and can drive.

Glenn Robinson
http://basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ROBINGL01

Allan Houston
http://basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=HOUSTAL01

If you dont want to compare stats, how would you want to compare them?
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Bobby
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9/6/2004  1:36 PM
i think it is reasonable to give isiah 2 more years to fully grade his work.

zeke’s grade for half a season or so rates b minus. his last minute push for lw resulted in knicks not finishing .500, a most disgraceful playoff sweep ever, and probably cost him executive of the year I think its reasonable for a coaching change if lw fails to produce .500 plus season and at least second round playoff this season. briggs, how long do you think you can hold a position by telling your superiors to fully grade your work after 2 years ?..........paleeeeeeeeazzzz
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
BRIGGS
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9/6/2004  1:51 PM
hes been given a great deal of latitude to spend right off the bat, but if the ownership can handle the salaries[although its terrible for the sport and the fans who support it] he needs to be given atleast 2 years to fully evaluate his moves. In most pro sports programs a GM is usually given 2-5 years to implement a model that works. Isiah has brought a great deal of respect to the knicks in a short time. isiah is a name brand--he is classy intelligent and understands basketball from all perspectives. hes going to be given very ample room and time
RIP Crushalot😞
Marv
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9/6/2004  2:02 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Marv:

If you go back and check where I came into this thread, it was in response to a specific point BRIGGS had made comparing Robinson and Houston. That was the discussion he and I were having when you came in.
Ok, lets compare Glen Robinson and Houston in the last 2 years like you said. Check Glen's stats with houstons in their best years. its not just the rebounds, Houston being a guard could not even match Glen's assits/game. Now Big Dog is not MUCH better than Houston but he still is a better player. Not only because he is a better scorer that has more moves, he is also taller and can drive.

Glenn Robinson
http://basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ROBINGL01

Allan Houston
http://basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=HOUSTAL01

If you dont want to compare stats, how would you want to compare them?

So we had been talking about who is a better player now, assuming both recover from injuries. In their last healthy year, 2002-2003, the comparison was this:

Houston: 22.5 points, .45 fg%, .92 ft%, .40 3fg%, 2.8 rpg, 2.7 apg.

Robinson: 20.8 points, .43 fg%, .88 ft%, .34 3fg%, 6.6 rpg, 3.0 apg.

Houston the better and more efficient scorer, Robinson the better rebounder and assist man. Right?

You prefer Robinson because he's a "better scorer that has more moves" and is "taller and can drive." Hey IMO that's a reasonable perspective to have on the Dog, even if the scoring stats don't currently bear that out. I was a huge Big Dog fan when he was at Purdue. I thought he was going to be the next Bernard King. Do you remember the NCAA tourney game where he had somthing like 35 points at halftime?!?! He was an unbelievable player. I just see him as having had a good but not great NBA career and as having some real deficiencies in presence on the court, impact on the team at crunch time and in the playoffs. He was Milwaukee's established go-to scorer for a long time, but do you have memories of him delivering in the clutch for them and carrying them when they've needed it? My prevailing playoff image of him, as I said earlier, is of him shrinking and giving up when TMac shouted him down and dominated him. My prevailing one of Houston, as I mentioned, is the Miami drive, regardless of how long ago that was. To my thinking this isn't a right or wrong kind of discussion. They're very different kinds of players with different strengths, and pretty close overall stats. I respect your preferring Robinson and thinking he's a better player. There's nothing unreasonable to me at all about that. I've just been expressing a different opinion and different preference, which I would think is reasonable as well.
fishmike
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9/6/2004  2:32 PM
I dont know how good Phili is going to be, but they do have something paramount to winning in the NBA... two athletic long defending players... one on the wing in Andre and one in the post in Dalembert. Now, both may still be a ways away... like at least another year, but Dalembert finished the season averaging 12/12/4.5
We have nothing like that at all.
That being said they have a lot of 'ok' players around 6'8.

They have exactly the same questions we have I think. I think they improved their team but will they play well together?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Silverfuel
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9/6/2004  3:18 PM
Posted by Marv:

They're very different kinds of players with different strengths, and pretty close overall stats.
They are more similar than they are different. Glen Robinson is just as soft and lazy and shoots a lot instead of driving. He was never the go to guy in Milwaukee, it was always Ray Allen and I remember him hitting some buzzer beater 3's against us. They only got to the playoffs once. McGrady scored on Houston as well when they played in the playoffs against Toronto. He was the only one scoring because Spree was shutting down Carter.
I respect your preferring Robinson and thinking he's a better player. There's nothing unreasonable to me at all about that. I've just been expressing a different opinion and different preference, which I would think is reasonable as well.
It is extremely reasonable having separate opinions but the opinions have to be based on facts. Big Dog can drive but he jump shoots just as much as Houston and he was never the 1st option on a team like Houston was in NY a few seasons ago.

Injuerd or not, I dont see Houston averaging that many points a game ever again. I can see Big Dog averaging more points a game than Houston next season. I think Houston is the one going downhill in terms of productivity and health where Big Dog will do better than him. The worst part about this is that Houston plays for my team and Big Dog does not!
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
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