[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

No Giannas or Brogdon tonight vs Bucks
Author Thread
fwk00
Posts: 20894
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/20/2015
Member: #6048

2/2/2018  11:01 PM
nixluva wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Jack: 32 minutes.

Lee: 38 minutes.

Starters played heavy minutes.

Only 17 minutes for Frank.

No minutes for Willy, Dotson and Burke.

And still lose.

How exactly are we a rebuilding team again?


THIS is what bothered me most. Aside from Jeff's technical mistakes and lack of creativity. He must be showcasing the vets. I can't think of any other rationale.

Look, I don't see the love affair with Willie any more. He's had plenty of time to straighten this season out and seems happy to be a towel boy. Dotson has done nothing to get promoted to the head of the line.

Burke is making a case to be one of three roster PGs but he's small and defensively challenged - ok off the bench but we need somebody better than Jack to be starting.

Of our most tradeable assets, CLee is the one I would hope to keep if we can lose the Hardaway signing.

AUTOADVERT
nixluva
Posts: 56068
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
2/2/2018  11:09 PM
fwk00 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Jack: 32 minutes.

Lee: 38 minutes.

Starters played heavy minutes.

Only 17 minutes for Frank.

No minutes for Willy, Dotson and Burke.

And still lose.

How exactly are we a rebuilding team again?


THIS is what bothered me most. Aside from Jeff's technical mistakes and lack of creativity. He must be showcasing the vets. I can't think of any other rationale.

Look, I don't see the love affair with Willie any more. He's had plenty of time to straighten this season out and seems happy to be a towel boy. Dotson has done nothing to get promoted to the head of the line.

Burke is making a case to be one of three roster PGs but he's small and defensively challenged - ok off the bench but we need somebody better than Jack to be starting.

Of our most tradeable assets, CLee is the one I would hope to keep if we can lose the Hardaway signing.


Teams like Willy. Despite how you may feel about him. Teams haven't forgotten the kids Per 36 production. I suspect if the right offer is made they'd trade Willy.

Burke has his deficiencies but he should be playing. Dotson needs time to develop but you can see his traits could make him a solid 3nD like CLee.

I expect CLee to be traded. He's just too useful to a Playoff team.

CrushAlot
Posts: 56418
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
2/2/2018  11:09 PM
fwk00 wrote:Why is Hardway not in the G-League?
Brutal night for Tim but he was a great signing. Hoping he isn't still hurt.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
CrushAlot
Posts: 56418
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
2/2/2018  11:11 PM
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Jack: 32 minutes.

Lee: 38 minutes.

Starters played heavy minutes.

Only 17 minutes for Frank.

No minutes for Willy, Dotson and Burke.

And still lose.

How exactly are we a rebuilding team again?


It was a two point game. I think the only difference maker in that group is Burke.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
blkexec
Posts: 24437
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 9/3/2004
Member: #748
2/2/2018  11:16 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:It's ALL GREEEK to the Knicks.

Kanter guarding Giannis on a switch = loss

Lance was doing a solid job and he takes him out for kanter, if baker was healthy JH would find minutes for him, but left burke on the benh all game,the team scored 90 points...Im starting to hate him

People complain about Thomas....But in reality, this team needs more young Thomas type dudes. He played good defense on the Greek, knocked down some 3s....and was active all night.

Timmy is Timmy....One day he looks like a G league player, the next he looks like an All Star!

The Bucks tried to lose and couldn't.....Thats how I look at this game. We not ready for playoff basketball, but coach is coaching for his life, just like every NY coach that comes near Dolan and these fans.

Everybody wants to win and rebuild at the same time? Can't have both.....

Q: What is the difference between a Knicks fan and a baby? A: The baby will stop whining after awhile.
blkexec
Posts: 24437
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 9/3/2004
Member: #748
2/2/2018  11:19 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/2/2018  11:20 PM
nixluva wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Jack: 32 minutes.

Lee: 38 minutes.

Starters played heavy minutes.

Only 17 minutes for Frank.

No minutes for Willy, Dotson and Burke.

And still lose.

How exactly are we a rebuilding team again?


THIS is what bothered me most. Aside from Jeff's technical mistakes and lack of creativity. He must be showcasing the vets. I can't think of any other rationale.

Look, I don't see the love affair with Willie any more. He's had plenty of time to straighten this season out and seems happy to be a towel boy. Dotson has done nothing to get promoted to the head of the line.

Burke is making a case to be one of three roster PGs but he's small and defensively challenged - ok off the bench but we need somebody better than Jack to be starting.

Of our most tradeable assets, CLee is the one I would hope to keep if we can lose the Hardaway signing.


Teams like Willy. Despite how you may feel about him. Teams haven't forgotten the kids Per 36 production. I suspect if the right offer is made they'd trade Willy.

Burke has his deficiencies but he should be playing. Dotson needs time to develop but you can see his traits could make him a solid 3nD like CLee.

I expect CLee to be traded. He's just too useful to a Playoff team.

I hate to say it, but trading Lee may give us a chance at a higher pick.

Lee is the glue and he hides Timmy's flaws. Without Lee, the spot light is really on Timmy to be a solid second scorer. The problem is KP is not a lead guy right now....And Timmy is barely a reliable 2nd scorer. He's still inconsistent. The coach is fairly young and doesn't like his roster glut. He's clearly at a lost on what combination of players do he play.

Q: What is the difference between a Knicks fan and a baby? A: The baby will stop whining after awhile.
fwk00
Posts: 20894
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/20/2015
Member: #6048

2/2/2018  11:46 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Jack: 32 minutes.

Lee: 38 minutes.

Starters played heavy minutes.

Only 17 minutes for Frank.

No minutes for Willy, Dotson and Burke.

And still lose.

How exactly are we a rebuilding team again?


It was a two point game. I think the only difference maker in that group is Burke.

Sorry, Crush, this was not a two point game. This should have been a blowout that the Knicks won. The incomprehensible turnovers, bad play by THJ, soul-crushing mediocrity of KP, and did I mention turnovers turned this into yet another loss that should have been a laffer.

If the claim is that we are not tanking then we need a new FO. Tanking teams are less obvious.

nixluva
Posts: 56068
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
2/2/2018  11:51 PM
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Jack: 32 minutes.

Lee: 38 minutes.

Starters played heavy minutes.

Only 17 minutes for Frank.

No minutes for Willy, Dotson and Burke.

And still lose.

How exactly are we a rebuilding team again?


It was a two point game. I think the only difference maker in that group is Burke.

Sorry, Crush, this was not a two point game. This should have been a blowout that the Knicks won. The incomprehensible turnovers, bad play by THJ, soul-crushing mediocrity of KP, and did I mention turnovers turned this into yet another loss that should have been a laffer.

If the claim is that we are not tanking then we need a new FO. Tanking teams are less obvious.

IMO this is kind of how they want to do it. Play hard and if they're losing that's who they are and you just make the moves you need to make and draft the best talent you can. They didn't TANK. They simply lost games. Until the Deadline this is the only way to play it. Once they get to the deadline they will have to make deals or stand pat. It's a simple set of decisions at this point.

fwk00
Posts: 20894
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/20/2015
Member: #6048

2/2/2018  11:56 PM
blkexec wrote:-snip-

People complain about Thomas....But in reality, this team needs more young Thomas type dudes. He played good defense on the Greek, knocked down some 3s....and was active all night.

Timmy is Timmy....One day he looks like a G league player, the next he looks like an All Star!

The Bucks tried to lose and couldn't.....Thats how I look at this game. We not ready for playoff basketball, but coach is coaching for his life, just like every NY coach that comes near Dolan and these fans.

Everybody wants to win and rebuild at the same time? Can't have both.....

Our problem is not that we want both but that we get neither. We are in a perpetual pseudo-rebuild every time Dolan sneezes. Isiah's rebuild was snuffed, Larry Brown's rebuild was snuffed, D'Antoni and Phil - snuffed. Who knows what this thing is, a Frankenstein mash-up of Phil's bold back-burner rebuild and our current FO abortion of it.

I spent a good part of the game shrieking in horror at the game. The Knicks, in my experience, have finally jumped the shark.

nixluva
Posts: 56068
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
2/3/2018  12:07 AM
fwk00 wrote:
blkexec wrote:-snip-

People complain about Thomas....But in reality, this team needs more young Thomas type dudes. He played good defense on the Greek, knocked down some 3s....and was active all night.

Timmy is Timmy....One day he looks like a G league player, the next he looks like an All Star!

The Bucks tried to lose and couldn't.....Thats how I look at this game. We not ready for playoff basketball, but coach is coaching for his life, just like every NY coach that comes near Dolan and these fans.

Everybody wants to win and rebuild at the same time? Can't have both.....

Our problem is not that we want both but that we get neither. We are in a perpetual pseudo-rebuild every time Dolan sneezes. Isiah's rebuild was snuffed, Larry Brown's rebuild was snuffed, D'Antoni and Phil - snuffed. Who knows what this thing is, a Frankenstein mash-up of Phil's bold back-burner rebuild and our current FO abortion of it.

I spent a good part of the game shrieking in horror at the game. The Knicks, in my experience, have finally jumped the shark.


Knicks didn't want to TANK. They wanted to try and make the playoffs. Let KP experience what it's like to be the Primary Option. The only thing that I think kind of ticks many fans off is that there was a bit less actual development of the younger players than we may have expected. Just think they could've prioritized more minutes for the kids. Not sure why we needed to see so many minutes for vets, but for all we know this is all a showcase for trading the Vets.
fwk00
Posts: 20894
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/20/2015
Member: #6048

2/3/2018  12:07 AM
nixluva wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Jack: 32 minutes.

Lee: 38 minutes.

Starters played heavy minutes.

Only 17 minutes for Frank.

No minutes for Willy, Dotson and Burke.

And still lose.

How exactly are we a rebuilding team again?


It was a two point game. I think the only difference maker in that group is Burke.

Sorry, Crush, this was not a two point game. This should have been a blowout that the Knicks won. The incomprehensible turnovers, bad play by THJ, soul-crushing mediocrity of KP, and did I mention turnovers turned this into yet another loss that should have been a laffer.

If the claim is that we are not tanking then we need a new FO. Tanking teams are less obvious.

IMO this is kind of how they want to do it. Play hard and if they're losing that's who they are and you just make the moves you need to make and draft the best talent you can. They didn't TANK. They simply lost games. Until the Deadline this is the only way to play it. Once they get to the deadline they will have to make deals or stand pat. It's a simple set of decisions at this point.

nixluva, you don't need mind-numbing analytics to do the math. To get to the playoffs, we need wins against teams like Milwaukee. For the FO to say they want to win, make the playoffs, and so on and then sit on their hands for six or seven games waiting for a deadline is passive/aggressive surrender.

*Every* game counts. Every game like this reduces our chances dramatically because the simple math of games-left-to-play is a shorter and shorter runway to the playoffs. Its a no-brainer.

If we're serious about winning, the methodology is insane. And its not even about the playoffs, its about learning how to win - we aren't learning that.

Even following the trajectory of the FO rhetoric - *when* do we finally have talent? When do we win? Another three years? Five years? Maybe a decade... why not? We'll be debating THJ's no-trade clause by then.

I almost miss Dolan.

nixluva
Posts: 56068
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
2/3/2018  12:44 AM
fwk00 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Jack: 32 minutes.

Lee: 38 minutes.

Starters played heavy minutes.

Only 17 minutes for Frank.

No minutes for Willy, Dotson and Burke.

And still lose.

How exactly are we a rebuilding team again?


It was a two point game. I think the only difference maker in that group is Burke.

Sorry, Crush, this was not a two point game. This should have been a blowout that the Knicks won. The incomprehensible turnovers, bad play by THJ, soul-crushing mediocrity of KP, and did I mention turnovers turned this into yet another loss that should have been a laffer.

If the claim is that we are not tanking then we need a new FO. Tanking teams are less obvious.

IMO this is kind of how they want to do it. Play hard and if they're losing that's who they are and you just make the moves you need to make and draft the best talent you can. They didn't TANK. They simply lost games. Until the Deadline this is the only way to play it. Once they get to the deadline they will have to make deals or stand pat. It's a simple set of decisions at this point.

nixluva, you don't need mind-numbing analytics to do the math. To get to the playoffs, we need wins against teams like Milwaukee. For the FO to say they want to win, make the playoffs, and so on and then sit on their hands for six or seven games waiting for a deadline is passive/aggressive surrender.

*Every* game counts. Every game like this reduces our chances dramatically because the simple math of games-left-to-play is a shorter and shorter runway to the playoffs. Its a no-brainer.

If we're serious about winning, the methodology is insane. And its not even about the playoffs, its about learning how to win - we aren't learning that.

Even following the trajectory of the FO rhetoric - *when* do we finally have talent? When do we win? Another three years? Five years? Maybe a decade... why not? We'll be debating THJ's no-trade clause by then.

I almost miss Dolan.


I'm just not seeing this angle you're presenting in terms of the overall strategy of the Team. They have some young talent that's not ready and some Vets that have more experience. They didn't want to TANK but rather play this out naturally and see what happens. They still have some games to review before making the final decision on any deals they may be considering.

We still have the same scenario as we did to start the year. They have some players they're looking at as part of the rebuild. They have some vets that are tradeable. They have picks and maybe they can add more or some young talent via trades. Sounds pretty logical to me.

fwk00
Posts: 20894
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/20/2015
Member: #6048

2/3/2018  1:35 AM
nixluva wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Jack: 32 minutes.

Lee: 38 minutes.

Starters played heavy minutes.

Only 17 minutes for Frank.

No minutes for Willy, Dotson and Burke.

And still lose.

How exactly are we a rebuilding team again?


It was a two point game. I think the only difference maker in that group is Burke.

Sorry, Crush, this was not a two point game. This should have been a blowout that the Knicks won. The incomprehensible turnovers, bad play by THJ, soul-crushing mediocrity of KP, and did I mention turnovers turned this into yet another loss that should have been a laffer.

If the claim is that we are not tanking then we need a new FO. Tanking teams are less obvious.

IMO this is kind of how they want to do it. Play hard and if they're losing that's who they are and you just make the moves you need to make and draft the best talent you can. They didn't TANK. They simply lost games. Until the Deadline this is the only way to play it. Once they get to the deadline they will have to make deals or stand pat. It's a simple set of decisions at this point.

nixluva, you don't need mind-numbing analytics to do the math. To get to the playoffs, we need wins against teams like Milwaukee. For the FO to say they want to win, make the playoffs, and so on and then sit on their hands for six or seven games waiting for a deadline is passive/aggressive surrender.

*Every* game counts. Every game like this reduces our chances dramatically because the simple math of games-left-to-play is a shorter and shorter runway to the playoffs. Its a no-brainer.

If we're serious about winning, the methodology is insane. And its not even about the playoffs, its about learning how to win - we aren't learning that.

Even following the trajectory of the FO rhetoric - *when* do we finally have talent? When do we win? Another three years? Five years? Maybe a decade... why not? We'll be debating THJ's no-trade clause by then.

I almost miss Dolan.


I'm just not seeing this angle you're presenting in terms of the overall strategy of the Team. They have some young talent that's not ready and some Vets that have more experience. They didn't want to TANK but rather play this out naturally and see what happens. They still have some games to review before making the final decision on any deals they may be considering.

We still have the same scenario as we did to start the year. They have some players they're looking at as part of the rebuild. They have some vets that are tradeable. They have picks and maybe they can add more or some young talent via trades. Sounds pretty logical to me.

Two days ago from ESPN [Begley]: " At the moment, the Knicks have no intention of selling off assets at the Feb. 8 deadline and tanking the rest of the season. The club wants to remain competitive and fight for playoff position while it's feasible. The Knicks enter play Thursday three games out of eighth place in the Eastern Conference.

Reasonable people can disagree over the merits of that strategy. Some fans would probably love to see the Knicks lose the rest of their games to improve their chances of landing a top pick in the NBA lottery.

The Knicks aren't going to take that approach just yet, but that doesn't mean they're blindly chasing a playoff berth and ignoring their future."

So the claim is that they're NOT tanking. Okay.

You claim is that the team has "some young talent that's not ready" and "some Vets that have more experience". Okay.

Where you [and the FO] lose me is in the "some games to review" category. Review exactly what? The young talent isn't getting floor time. The Vets are a well-known commodity. The concept of winning is best realized by teams with better vets and teams with more talented "young talent". They beat us routinely.

We don't have the same scenario as the beginning of the year. At the beginning of the year we had a chance to make the playoffs. Now our chances evaporate with every wasted game "reviewing". Here reviewing is synonymous with LOSING.

Presumably there are trades to evaluate. Let me offer my doubts. While the Knicks are reviewing [vomit bags in hand] our recent games, Boston, Detroit, the Clips,and other teams are actually active. They could wait around waiting for Godot but they don't.

So back to the Begley report that the Knicks are not tanking. Do *you* believe that? Because, in my mind, "not tanking" means not losing and right now the Knicks are the Dictionary definition of LOSE.

Obviously this all reads like a drunken, armchair, wannabe GM but in my experience you would aggressively work to identify assets being exposed for trade from other teams [you don't need a scouting report - its on HoopsHype], prioritize the talent you're looking for, and make the trade happen asap. This presumably improves your chances not to tank, to win, and maybe even win enough to host a playoff series.

Contrast this to reviewing games played in a vortex of humiliating losses, waiting for [better is the enemy of good enough] better deals, and eliminating any good reason to try winning more games [you've waited too long to have them matter].

My logic is simply that the FO is as aggressive as the players are in trying to succeed - ...whatever will be will be...

This disenfranchises fans.

smackeddog
Posts: 32787
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/30/2005
Member: #883
2/3/2018  4:49 AM
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Jack: 32 minutes.

Lee: 38 minutes.

Starters played heavy minutes.

Only 17 minutes for Frank.

No minutes for Willy, Dotson and Burke.

And still lose.

How exactly are we a rebuilding team again?

Yup

nyknickzingis
Posts: 22917
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/8/2015
Member: #6207

2/3/2018  5:48 AM
I just thank heavens for the abysmal 14-15 season.
If not we would be a perennial 30 win team in the Dolan era with no young star.

We should be focused on tanking now.
Instead we are playing vets not selling at deadline for future assets.

We will draft once again around where we got Frank last year.

Look guys like Frank or DSJ are awesome picks as a luxury.
However the Knicks need a second star.
Without a top 4 pick don't know how they achieve this.

Only reason the knicks even have a semblance of hope for the future is the abysmal 14-15 season that led to a top 5 pick that became KP.

All I see on this team is one inexperienced all star and a lot of good role players.
Good teams have a second all star and the elite teams now have three or more.

CrushAlot
Posts: 56418
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
2/3/2018  11:16 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:I just thank heavens for the abysmal 14-15 season.
If not we would be a perennial 30 win team in the Dolan era with no young star.

We should be focused on tanking now.
Instead we are playing vets not selling at deadline for future assets.

We will draft once again around where we got Frank last year.

Look guys like Frank or DSJ are awesome picks as a luxury.
However the Knicks need a second star.
Without a top 4 pick don't know how they achieve this.

Only reason the knicks even have a semblance of hope for the future is the abysmal 14-15 season that led to a top 5 pick that became KP.

All I see on this team is one inexperienced all star and a lot of good role players.
Good teams have a second all star and the elite teams now have three or more.

Yeah. Maybe the Knicks need another Frankengmexcoach to overhaul the roster for a group he is sure will make the playoffs and function well in an outdated system he forces his coaches to run. If that guy could give out two of the worst contracts in the nba, alienate himself from agents, players and other front office types by his strange combination of arrogance and reclusiveness in an occupation where relationships and communication are two of the biggest keys to success everything might be great again in the world of tanking. Except that he would be trying to win.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
martin
Posts: 47291
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
2/3/2018  1:35 PM
fwk00 wrote:Where you [and the FO] lose me is in the "some games to review" category. Review exactly what? The young talent isn't getting floor time. The Vets are a well-known commodity. The concept of winning is best realized by teams with better vets and teams with more talented "young talent". They beat us routinely.

I don't know how you can say this this a straight face. Carries about as much weight as the Nunes memo

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
martin
Posts: 47291
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
2/3/2018  1:37 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:I just thank heavens for the abysmal 14-15 season.
If not we would be a perennial 30 win team in the Dolan era with no young star.

We should be focused on tanking now.
Instead we are playing vets not selling at deadline for future assets.

We will draft once again around where we got Frank last year.

Look guys like Frank or DSJ are awesome picks as a luxury.
However the Knicks need a second star.
Without a top 4 pick don't know how they achieve this.

Only reason the knicks even have a semblance of hope for the future is the abysmal 14-15 season that led to a top 5 pick that became KP.

All I see on this team is one inexperienced all star and a lot of good role players.
Good teams have a second all star and the elite teams now have three or more.

Did the deadline somehow already pass and I didn't know about it?

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
martin
Posts: 47291
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
2/3/2018  1:49 PM
BTW I really liked Frank in the first half. No thinking just playing, and he looked good doing it. Still over passes but I can't fault that
Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
CrushAlot
Posts: 56418
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
2/3/2018  1:57 PM
martin wrote:BTW I really liked Frank in the first half. No thinking just playing, and he looked good doing it. Still over passes but I can't fault that
He looked great.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
No Giannas or Brogdon tonight vs Bucks

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.com All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.