EnySpree wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

martin wrote:I am guessing that all of those who want to trade Noah and the first for "Cap space" have no idea what the cap situation is and what they Knicks would be idiots to do that type of trade.

Figure out the numbers, figure out the target and get back to us with a better explanation then "we need to trade for cap space"

Yeah if the situation arose where a player wanted to sign here we could do a trade then or stretch him if we had to no reason to rush into this at the trade deadline. I'm hoping Noah forfeits a year of his contract (Very Unlikely).

I think everyone needs to loosen up. If we didn't talk about what it's and post crazy trade scenarios there wouldn't be a forum. It's fun to imagine while taking a dump. Takes the mind off of the **** you have to deal with

You should have "Shit talk" as part of your thread titles

smackeddog wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks are the dumbest managed team in the league
So you want to trade Noah and you send him home?
You don't play him at all even when he plays well?
They should have been playing him regularly if they wanted a shot at a trade.

How desperate do they look right now to make a trade?
No one is going to help them.
Infact seethe situation and know the Noah/Hornachek relationship sucks and make more demands.

What you do with Noah is what I've been saying for ages.
Give him 15 a game, let him show he still can play.
See the market. If you can't deal, at seasons end stretch provision him.

Noah's trade value was tanked the minute he signed his contract with the Knicks. Phil Jackson literally bid against himself.

Washington were wanting to max him out, so that's who Phil was bidding against. I actually wanted us to sign Noah, but I was wanting to just offer around MLE. When I read about Washington I thought they were crazy. Then the Knicks basically matched and I knew we were in trouble. At the time I tried to fool myself by thinking there would be an amnesty clause in the new CBA (that was being negotiated at the time, I think). When it turned out there wasn't going to be one, we were screwed.

not sure how accurate the wizard angle was
http://www.nbcsports.com/washington/washington-wizards/dissecting-how-speculation-about-joakim-noah-got-out-hand-and-why

seems like it was just rumor, noahs agent building up value back then?

Knicks ensure max cap space 2 years from now but have to take on Diengs contract (1 year beyond Noah and $16.2M cap hit). Knicks get future cap space and first round pick, Twolves bench players who are an upgrade (playing on the Thibodeau-Noah connection).

doomed wrote:Why on earth would you dump the first just to dump Noah? Why? Where's this
Great irresistible fa player we are getting???

Don't do anything stupid. Wait it out... for the love of everything holy.

You don't dump a pick for Noah. You attempt to get a pick as many have suggested. And you get a pick by taking on a contract that may ham-string the magical, mythical land of free Agency. The last free agent of note for the Knicks; Allan Houston.

The latest way to the top is not the Hinke formula, its the Ainge way and that is to be snakelike in shedding your skin.

What Ainge successfully does is to continuously improve the quality of talent. Roster consistency is reduced. You floor the best players you can, increase their value, replace them with the next in line, sell off the over-achiever for either a better starter or youngsters in the form of picks or hustle players. Run them into the ground or to their next destination.

Given our newly hopeless record, we should keep Noah, run him into the ground til the end of the season. He's getting paid. Before the trade deadline, move the centers we aren't resigning or keeping [e.g. KOQ, Willie] - bring in one [Biyombo, Dieng, Dedmon], [overpay if we have to] for a SF candidate [Oubre, Iwundu, some bench weary kid], move Jack and replace him with say, Rubio], and IFF there truly is a God, move THJ for *anything*

Nalod wrote:I suggest you watch some hornet games and look how Batum has filled out and now looks like 38 year old Robert Horry.
He just turned 29 and looks like a bench player at the end of his contract after a good career. He can still play, but has lost his athletic quickness.

-snip-

Batum is a better 3 than any we have on the team now. But at that money and length of contract I'd have to say resoundingly "NO!"
Would it inch us close to a playoff seed this year? yeah, perhaps. Does this guy help us keep KP happy? Best thing about him is he is French.

Nalod, understood.

Had we traded for Batum prior to the last two losses, Batum might have been a difference maker in a longshot run at the playoffs. Let's use Batum as an example anyway since I think that window of opportunity has closed [for making the playoffs, not acquiring Batum or anyone else].

The key point, I think, is that Batum is, for all his basketball warts, better than anyone we have. That is, as painful as it may seem, the direction the Knicks *have to* move in. The idea that just because we get a draft pick or two, everything will be fine is magical thinking. It means embracing losing and a fan's investment of time, money, and team goodwill in long, tedious fishing expeditions for the perfect lineup.

As a fan, I can forgive the FO for assuming risk and taking chances. What I can no longer bear witness to is the recursive failure to field a winning team. And I don't want to hear a word about coaching staffs - we've cycled through HoF coaches like candy. Coaches can't run the floor.

A Batum or Batum like trade in which we assume a costly or lengthy contract is the same problem every other team has. If the incoming player moves the needle up in wins and what we've given up is dead weight to us then next year or the year after we deal with the challenges the incoming contract presents at that time.

Let's circle back to the wisdom of Batum specifically though. A week ago, a Batum plus a pick for Noah deal would have made sense. We were still in the playoff hunt tenuous as that may have been. Had Batum contributed to a few wins that brought us far closer to that threshold would have been gravy - playoff experience for our young guys and something for the fans to watch in the post-season. To me, a no-brainer. Even if we got stuck with the contract, we could take solice in having a first-rounder coming to us say a year or two out.

Today, the trade would make little sense unless multiple picks came back. Batum, while better than anyone we have, isn't the only SF candidate out there. There are a few who need seasoning but would mesh nicely with this team - Oubre, Johnson, and a few others have been mentioned. But the cost will be steeper than dead weight and the payoff is unlikely to be immediate. Again okay by me.

And if one of these younger, more athletic SFs costs us our first-rounder, I'm okay with it because a talent-upgrade in hand is worth two chances at talent in the draft.

fwk00 wrote:

Nalod wrote:I suggest you watch some hornet games and look how Batum has filled out and now looks like 38 year old Robert Horry.
He just turned 29 and looks like a bench player at the end of his contract after a good career. He can still play, but has lost his athletic quickness.

-snip-

Batum is a better 3 than any we have on the team now. But at that money and length of contract I'd have to say resoundingly "NO!"
Would it inch us close to a playoff seed this year? yeah, perhaps. Does this guy help us keep KP happy? Best thing about him is he is French.

Nalod, understood.

Had we traded for Batum prior to the last two losses, Batum might have been a difference maker in a longshot run at the playoffs. Let's use Batum as an example anyway since I think that window of opportunity has closed [for making the playoffs, not acquiring Batum or anyone else].

The key point, I think, is that Batum is, for all his basketball warts, better than anyone we have. That is, as painful as it may seem, the direction the Knicks *have to* move in. The idea that just because we get a draft pick or two, everything will be fine is magical thinking. It means embracing losing and a fan's investment of time, money, and team goodwill in long, tedious fishing expeditions for the perfect lineup.

As a fan, I can forgive the FO for assuming risk and taking chances. What I can no longer bear witness to is the recursive failure to field a winning team. And I don't want to hear a word about coaching staffs - we've cycled through HoF coaches like candy. Coaches can't run the floor.

A Batum or Batum like trade in which we assume a costly or lengthy contract is the same problem every other team has. If the incoming player moves the needle up in wins and what we've given up is dead weight to us then next year or the year after we deal with the challenges the incoming contract presents at that time.

Let's circle back to the wisdom of Batum specifically though. A week ago, a Batum plus a pick for Noah deal would have made sense. We were still in the playoff hunt tenuous as that may have been. Had Batum contributed to a few wins that brought us far closer to that threshold would have been gravy - playoff experience for our young guys and something for the fans to watch in the post-season. To me, a no-brainer. Even if we got stuck with the contract, we could take solice in having a first-rounder coming to us say a year or two out.

Today, the trade would make little sense unless multiple picks came back. Batum, while better than anyone we have, isn't the only SF candidate out there. There are a few who need seasoning but would mesh nicely with this team - Oubre, Johnson, and a few others have been mentioned. But the cost will be steeper than dead weight and the payoff is unlikely to be immediate. Again okay by me.

And if one of these younger, more athletic SFs costs us our first-rounder, I'm okay with it because a talent-upgrade in hand is worth two chances at talent in the draft.

Your basic assumption that Batum pushes the Knicks to a barely playoff team is completely flawed. Batum can't do it for his current team and hasn't for the last 2 years.

And then the Knicks are capped out for 4 more years. Batum is a max player who is nowhere near an all-star caliber player.

I want the Knicks to build a team for a deep playoff run, not a barely first round at best team.

arkrud wrote:Why is this fans obsessions with get into playoffs and get swept in first round or even "be in the hunt" at the expense of getting into cap hell and becoming the retirement place for bunch of old used to be greats? We are into this moronic predicament for 2 decades already but still cannot grow out of it.
Is it some fans mental issue infecting the front office and management? Looks like it to me.
You know demm well that this team is not good and will not be good for a while no matter what patch will be applied.
-snip-

Ark, I can only speak for myself. I am not obsessed with this team getting into the playoffs but I am obsessed with this team competing for a playoff position. The number of blown games and the humiliating way we lose is indefensible.

I also think you mistake "the position we are in". I'm advocating a different cycle that you and others cannot seem to wrap your heads around because you are married to tanking and summer capturbation imprinting. You worry way too much about cap-HELL but I'm here to tell you the Knicks have never come close to a cap heaven - EVER.

What does happen with the Knicks when they have cap cash is that winning teams soak up the worthwhile signings and the Knicks sign mediocrity for big bucks as if the signing is a star. Let's stop kidding ourselves about this. The last thing we need is another Tim Hardaway. It is equally moronic to think cap space two summers away after wasting two more seasons in mediocrity is turning this franchise around.

Continuous improvement is not a patch its a methodology that isn't driven by the usual nonsense but by seizing opportunty when it presents itself.

Nalod wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Nalod wrote:I suggest you watch some hornet games and look how Batum has filled out and now looks like 38 year old Robert Horry.
He just turned 29 and looks like a bench player at the end of his contract after a good career. He can still play, but has lost his athletic quickness.

-snip-

Batum is a better 3 than any we have on the team now. But at that money and length of contract I'd have to say resoundingly "NO!"
Would it inch us close to a playoff seed this year? yeah, perhaps. Does this guy help us keep KP happy? Best thing about him is he is French.

Nalod, understood.

Had we traded for Batum prior to the last two losses, Batum might have been a difference maker in a longshot run at the playoffs. Let's use Batum as an example anyway since I think that window of opportunity has closed [for making the playoffs, not acquiring Batum or anyone else].

The key point, I think, is that Batum is, for all his basketball warts, better than anyone we have. That is, as painful as it may seem, the direction the Knicks *have to* move in. The idea that just because we get a draft pick or two, everything will be fine is magical thinking. It means embracing losing and a fan's investment of time, money, and team goodwill in long, tedious fishing expeditions for the perfect lineup.

As a fan, I can forgive the FO for assuming risk and taking chances. What I can no longer bear witness to is the recursive failure to field a winning team. And I don't want to hear a word about coaching staffs - we've cycled through HoF coaches like candy. Coaches can't run the floor.

A Batum or Batum like trade in which we assume a costly or lengthy contract is the same problem every other team has. If the incoming player moves the needle up in wins and what we've given up is dead weight to us then next year or the year after we deal with the challenges the incoming contract presents at that time.

Let's circle back to the wisdom of Batum specifically though. A week ago, a Batum plus a pick for Noah deal would have made sense. We were still in the playoff hunt tenuous as that may have been. Had Batum contributed to a few wins that brought us far closer to that threshold would have been gravy - playoff experience for our young guys and something for the fans to watch in the post-season. To me, a no-brainer. Even if we got stuck with the contract, we could take solice in having a first-rounder coming to us say a year or two out.

Today, the trade would make little sense unless multiple picks came back. Batum, while better than anyone we have, isn't the only SF candidate out there. There are a few who need seasoning but would mesh nicely with this team - Oubre, Johnson, and a few others have been mentioned. But the cost will be steeper than dead weight and the payoff is unlikely to be immediate. Again okay by me.

And if one of these younger, more athletic SFs costs us our first-rounder, I'm okay with it because a talent-upgrade in hand is worth two chances at talent in the draft.

I appreciate your view.
I think when Beas came in very skinny and quick the thought was he'd play at the 3. He has put on 30 lbs thru the season and playing the 4 now.
Beas was confused on the perimeter. Good call actually, he is a beast driving to the basket with that weight.
Mcdougie could have had the job. He runs good, but the shot........Oye!
Clee is small at the 3 and cannot create. he is a natural 2. If we call Timmy a 3, I'd just say "Wing!". Like Clee.
So its a postion we are failing on. Its the glamor position in the NBA and few good ones available. We have to draft one.
Oubre is a good player but got paid. Not aware he is available.
Jeremy Lamb a good player, but really he just kills knicks! LOL
Rebuilding sucks and it tests patience. "Buy or sell" at deadline and face the fans ire!! When we catered to stars (ewing back in the day) we compromised the future.
its a nasty cycle. Few answers and I DON"T HAVE ONE! That does not mean I can't comment?
Nalod promotes patience and to sell if value can be had but if not, let KOQ walk!!! Good teams let players walk and fill them with better ones but its not apparent right away. Lets hope Willy is that guy.
Im ok Trading Clee for a late first round pick. If not, keep him.
Don't trade our pick. Not even for Stanley Johnson.

Willie's shelf-life has expired.

Stanley Johnson is not where I'd invest the pick. He can be obtained in a straight deal.

knicks1248 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

doomed wrote:Why on earth would you dump the first just to dump Noah? Why? Where's this
Great irresistible fa player we are getting???

Don't do anything stupid. Wait it out... for the love of everything holy.

You don't dump a pick for Noah. You attempt to get a pick as many have suggested. And you get a pick by taking on a contract that may ham-string the magical, mythical land of free Agency. The last free agent of note for the Knicks; Allan Houston.

The latest way to the top is not the Hinke formula, its the Ainge way and that is to be snakelike in shedding your skin.

What Ainge successfully does is to continuously improve the quality of talent. Roster consistency is reduced. You floor the best players you can, increase their value, replace them with the next in line, sell off the over-achiever for either a better starter or youngsters in the form of picks or hustle players. Run them into the ground or to their next destination.

Given our newly hopeless record, we should keep Noah, run him into the ground til the end of the season. He's getting paid. Before the trade deadline, move the centers we aren't resigning or keeping [e.g. KOQ, Willie] - bring in one [Biyombo, Dieng, Dedmon], [overpay if we have to] for a SF candidate [Oubre, Iwundu, some bench weary kid], move Jack and replace him with say, Rubio], and IFF there truly is a God, move THJ for *anything*

We are not getting better unless we trade for a star, we have had millions in cap space over the last few yrs, and no one has came knocking, we have had draft picks,none have been franchise changers.

Ever since mills went on record stating he would have drafted frank(after several trips to see him play in person) over DSJ and Mitchel regardless of phil, how could you have faith in his judgment.

Mostly because of what you say and how you say it?
Your the UK Fredo. Show us better!

While no punches were thrown, the Daily News learned that Hornacek was the first to shove Noah before they had to be separated.