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Noah plus a first?
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fwk00
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2/2/2018  9:18 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
reub wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
technomaster wrote:I like Batum - salary aside, he’s an established 2 way player, excellent distributor/ball handler at the wing positions. Exactly what the team needs at the 3.

Not sure if cutting a year of salary from the books is enough for Jordan to bite. They already have Howard, Frank the tank, and a Zeller at center.

That year is 27 mil and if you consider luxury tax considerations it saves them a ton of money. I believe a straight up deal saves them 40 mil before luxury tax is figured in. But Batum has been on the decline and I believe I heard somewhere that the Hornets are worried about his production and his deal.

I'd be willing to take the risk on Batum because we know that Noah is totally done here anyway.

He's on the books until 2021 and the last year is 27 mil.
He has 77 mil left on his deal after this year. I just don't think you can go there. That handcuffs the Knicks more and for a longer period of time.

How about we look at acquiring a Batum in a slightly different light. Expensive? meh.

Can he contribute to getting us into the playoffs for three or four years? I happen to think so. So who cares what he costs four years from now? Ask for a Charlotte first rounder three years out to offset the possibility that Batum becomes an albatross.

This is not to say I'm advocating acquiring Batum, just saying that we have to stop this fixation on cap space, who makes what, and some over-the-horizon utopian FA. Let's start thinking about what it takes to win and make wins happen. Again, I'm not speaking of star-phks - just stop being afraid of success.

Get some talent in here.

AUTOADVERT
reub
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2/2/2018  10:55 PM
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
reub wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
technomaster wrote:I like Batum - salary aside, he’s an established 2 way player, excellent distributor/ball handler at the wing positions. Exactly what the team needs at the 3.

Not sure if cutting a year of salary from the books is enough for Jordan to bite. They already have Howard, Frank the tank, and a Zeller at center.

That year is 27 mil and if you consider luxury tax considerations it saves them a ton of money. I believe a straight up deal saves them 40 mil before luxury tax is figured in. But Batum has been on the decline and I believe I heard somewhere that the Hornets are worried about his production and his deal.

I'd be willing to take the risk on Batum because we know that Noah is totally done here anyway.

He's on the books until 2021 and the last year is 27 mil.
He has 77 mil left on his deal after this year. I just don't think you can go there. That handcuffs the Knicks more and for a longer period of time.

How about we look at acquiring a Batum in a slightly different light. Expensive? meh.

Can he contribute to getting us into the playoffs for three or four years? I happen to think so. So who cares what he costs four years from now? Ask for a Charlotte first rounder three years out to offset the possibility that Batum becomes an albatross.

This is not to say I'm advocating acquiring Batum, just saying that we have to stop this fixation on cap space, who makes what, and some over-the-horizon utopian FA. Let's start thinking about what it takes to win and make wins happen. Again, I'm not speaking of star-phks - just stop being afraid of success.

Get some talent in here.


Batum makes us better for a long time and fills a position of need. Noah does nothing for us ever.
nyknickzingis
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2/3/2018  5:54 AM
Knicks are the dumbest managed team in the league
So you want to trade Noah and you send him home?
You don't play him at all even when he plays well?
They should have been playing him regularly if they wanted a shot at a trade.

How desperate do they look right now to make a trade?
No one is going to help them.
Infact seethe situation and know the Noah/Hornachek relationship sucks and make more demands.

What you do with Noah is what I've been saying for ages.
Give him 15 a game, let him show he still can play.
See the market. If you can't deal, at seasons end stretch provision him.

fwk00
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2/3/2018  9:35 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks are the dumbest managed team in the league
So you want to trade Noah and you send him home?
You don't play him at all even when he plays well?
They should have been playing him regularly if they wanted a shot at a trade.

How desperate do they look right now to make a trade?
No one is going to help them.
Infact seethe situation and know the Noah/Hornachek relationship sucks and make more demands.

What you do with Noah is what I've been saying for ages.
Give him 15 a game, let him show he still can play.
See the market. If you can't deal, at seasons end stretch provision him.

From here on on, Noah should be starting. Who better to risk injury on what has to become an end-the-season all out tank?
Coach doesn't even have to talk to him. Who cares.

If Noah can't be traded you keep him. Period. For what reason do you buy him out now? It doesn't improve the team at all or your financials. Better off buying him out next year or the year after. The stretch would even be cheaper.

HofstraBBall
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2/3/2018  10:31 AM
martin wrote:
reub wrote:Noah for Batum.

Who says no?

Noah's salary is $2 million less and is one year shorter than Batum's. If the Hornets are trying to shed Batum's salary maybe they would bite. I'd even throw in Chicago's second rounder to get it done.

I say no to the accuracy of this post. There are a ton of salary sites to verify Batum's contact.

Noah: $17.8, $18.5, $19.3
Batum: $22.4, $24, $25.5, $27

I have no idea if Batum is having an off year cause of injury or what.

Who wants a possibly injury prone Batum at 32 earning $27M VERSUS having the cap space to sign a max free agent? That's generally what you are asking and you went all in on Batum with a second round cherry on top.

Batum makes no sense. As does the idea that we need cap space in 2018/2019 season. Mills has said several times that the next couple of years are to rebuild. It makes the most sense for Knicks to keep Noah through 2019 and then stretch his last year for 3 years. Gives them flexibility, when they truly need it, in 2019. Trading a pick just makes a bad situation worse. As does trading for a player that does not meet the timeline.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
HofstraBBall
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2/3/2018  10:34 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/3/2018  10:40 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks are the dumbest managed team in the league
So you want to trade Noah and you send him home?
You don't play him at all even when he plays well?
They should have been playing him regularly if they wanted a shot at a trade.

How desperate do they look right now to make a trade?
No one is going to help them.
Infact seethe situation and know the Noah/Hornachek relationship sucks and make more demands.

What you do with Noah is what I've been saying for ages.
Give him 15 a game, let him show he still can play.
See the market. If you can't deal, at seasons end stretch provision him.

Agree about playing him. However, stretching his last two years does not really help our cap space much. Better to eat his third year and stretch him next year.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
CrushAlot
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2/3/2018  11:41 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks are the dumbest managed team in the league
So you want to trade Noah and you send him home?
You don't play him at all even when he plays well?
They should have been playing him regularly if they wanted a shot at a trade.

How desperate do they look right now to make a trade?
No one is going to help them.
Infact seethe situation and know the Noah/Hornachek relationship sucks and make more demands.

What you do with Noah is what I've been saying for ages.
Give him 15 a game, let him show he still can play.
See the market. If you can't deal, at seasons end stretch provision him.

I think it is a player/coach issue. Noah shouldn't have been pulled from the Warriors game. He looked good and it was garbage time anyway. The Knicks weren't trading Noah no matter what he did with 15-20 minutes on the court while healthy. His deal is just too bad. I think they let him sit and collect his money. He will either be bought out or waived and stretched at the end of the season. He knows he isn't good enough to get another contract other than a league minimum deal. Just say no to the Batum deal.
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fwk00
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2/3/2018  2:12 PM
CrushAlot wrote:-snip-

Just say no to the Batum deal.

Crush, you just happen to be the last person to say this.

Seems to me we said no to Lowry a few years ago. More recently Kyrie Irving. They are both playing for teams in the stratosphere compared to us. I wonder if there's a lesson to be learned about always saying 'no'.

martin
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2/3/2018  2:26 PM
reub wrote:Batum makes us better for a long time and fills a position of need. Noah does nothing for us ever.

I guess if you want to be a capped out, barely first round exit team it's a nice move.

CHA has Batum, MKD and Kemba starting backcourt for last 2 years and are going nowhere, let that sink in.

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newyorknewyork
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2/3/2018  2:49 PM
When is the last time Knicks added a player like Batum. With the money he has left. And the injury history he has displayed. And have it all work out for the Knicks?

If a dude has a crappy contract and an injury history he is going to get injured again on the Knicks especially as he gets older. He is a depreciating player.

I can't believe Knicks fans can go through all that they have gone through over all these years. Yet still look to do the same crap.

Welpee
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2/3/2018  4:07 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks are the dumbest managed team in the league
So you want to trade Noah and you send him home?
You don't play him at all even when he plays well?
They should have been playing him regularly if they wanted a shot at a trade.

How desperate do they look right now to make a trade?
No one is going to help them.
Infact seethe situation and know the Noah/Hornachek relationship sucks and make more demands.

What you do with Noah is what I've been saying for ages.
Give him 15 a game, let him show he still can play.
See the market. If you can't deal, at seasons end stretch provision him.

Noah basically sent himself home with his behavior. Given how last year went he hasn't earned any equity to warrant any special treatment. And when did he play well? Yeah, give him 15 a game and confirm what the rest of the league already knows, that Noah is done. From what I remember only the Wizards had any interest in Noah other than the Knicks when Phil signed him last year. That should tell you something.

I kinda half agree with you in one respect, that Phil may have been the dumbest president in the league giving Noah that contract.

TLover
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2/3/2018  4:14 PM
I’d be willing to take a chance on Batum especially if we get a pick out of it. Plus Batum & Ntlikina would make a good duo (not bc they’re French) but Batum can run the pint from the small forward spot thereby splitting ball handling duties which can be helpful to Frank.
fwk00
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2/3/2018  6:04 PM
martin wrote:
reub wrote:Batum makes us better for a long time and fills a position of need. Noah does nothing for us ever.

I guess if you want to be a capped out, barely first round exit team it's a nice move.

CHA has Batum, MKD and Kemba starting backcourt for last 2 years and are going nowhere, let that sink in.

Sigh. A first round exit. I can't remember our last first round exit. Yeah, *that* would be awful.

look, Noah's money is largely a sunk cost. The only question would be Noah vs Batum. If rolling the dice means a playoff spot, good lord, YES its worth it. Doesn't mean you won't have cap issues you'll have to deal with but so F'n what - we having more pressing winning issues.

No player comes with an injury-free guarantee and players who make a difference get paid. We do not have the ability to get premium talent and won't for a long time unless we take some risks.

No risk, no gain.

CrushAlot
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2/3/2018  6:05 PM
fwk00 wrote:
martin wrote:
reub wrote:Batum makes us better for a long time and fills a position of need. Noah does nothing for us ever.

I guess if you want to be a capped out, barely first round exit team it's a nice move.

CHA has Batum, MKD and Kemba starting backcourt for last 2 years and are going nowhere, let that sink in.

Sigh. A first round exit. I can't remember our last first round exit. Yeah, *that* would be awful.

look, Noah's money is largely a sunk cost. The only question would be Noah vs Batum. If rolling the dice means a playoff spot, good lord, YES its worth it. Doesn't mean you won't have cap issues you'll have to deal with but so F'n what - we having more pressing winning issues.

No player comes with an injury-free guarantee and players who make a difference get paid. We do not have the ability to get premium talent and won't for a long time unless we take some risks.

No risk, no gain.

YOu also could buy out Noah and sign someone waived after the deadline or bring up a guy from the g league. Batum's deal is scary.
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fwk00
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2/3/2018  6:25 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/3/2018  6:27 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
martin wrote:
reub wrote:Batum makes us better for a long time and fills a position of need. Noah does nothing for us ever.

I guess if you want to be a capped out, barely first round exit team it's a nice move.

CHA has Batum, MKD and Kemba starting backcourt for last 2 years and are going nowhere, let that sink in.

Sigh. A first round exit. I can't remember our last first round exit. Yeah, *that* would be awful.

look, Noah's money is largely a sunk cost. The only question would be Noah vs Batum. If rolling the dice means a playoff spot, good lord, YES its worth it. Doesn't mean you won't have cap issues you'll have to deal with but so F'n what - we having more pressing winning issues.

No player comes with an injury-free guarantee and players who make a difference get paid. We do not have the ability to get premium talent and won't for a long time unless we take some risks.

No risk, no gain.

YOu also could buy out Noah and sign someone waived after the deadline or bring up a guy from the g league. Batum's deal is scary.

True. But the cap hit remains I think. That's why you would stretch a contract like Noah's.

But even stretching just flattens the cap hit a bit. The best strategy with Noah if he's playing hardball is to just pay him for at least this year and stretch him next year. Every dollar we pay him this year returns in cap space down the line and we aren't [unless things change] going anywhere this year where buying out or stretching Noah adds any value.

Furthermore, no matter what we do with Noah, he should be retained until after the threshold of being eligible for the playoffs. He doesn't deserve to be rewarded that way without concessions.

Otherwise its just a matter of writing a check to Noah or writing a check to Batum or whoever. Better to get any value out of that check.

BigRedDog
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2/3/2018  6:38 PM
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
martin wrote:
reub wrote:Batum makes us better for a long time and fills a position of need. Noah does nothing for us ever.

I guess if you want to be a capped out, barely first round exit team it's a nice move.

CHA has Batum, MKD and Kemba starting backcourt for last 2 years and are going nowhere, let that sink in.

Sigh. A first round exit. I can't remember our last first round exit. Yeah, *that* would be awful.

look, Noah's money is largely a sunk cost. The only question would be Noah vs Batum. If rolling the dice means a playoff spot, good lord, YES its worth it. Doesn't mean you won't have cap issues you'll have to deal with but so F'n what - we having more pressing winning issues.

No player comes with an injury-free guarantee and players who make a difference get paid. We do not have the ability to get premium talent and won't for a long time unless we take some risks.

No risk, no gain.

YOu also could buy out Noah and sign someone waived after the deadline or bring up a guy from the g league. Batum's deal is scary.

True. But the cap hit remains I think. That's why you would stretch a contract like Noah's.

But even stretching just flattens the cap hit a bit. The best strategy with Noah if he's playing hardball is to just pay him for at least this year and stretch him next year. Every dollar we pay him this year returns in cap space down the line and we aren't [unless things change] going anywhere this year where buying out or stretching Noah adds any value.

Furthermore, no matter what we do with Noah, he should be retained until after the threshold of being eligible for the playoffs. He doesn't deserve to be rewarded that way without concessions.

Otherwise its just a matter of writing a check to Noah or writing a check to Batum or whoever. Better to get any value out of that check.

You are making the assumption that their contracts are equal. Quite differently. Not counting next year where u really dont care about the cap, but in 2 years. The difference then is $52 million for Batum vs $19 million for Noah. No way is Batum worth that . Stupid trade, stupid risk. That would block u from getting a star in 2 yrs.

Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
fwk00
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2/3/2018  6:43 PM
BigRedDog wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
martin wrote:
reub wrote:Batum makes us better for a long time and fills a position of need. Noah does nothing for us ever.

I guess if you want to be a capped out, barely first round exit team it's a nice move.

CHA has Batum, MKD and Kemba starting backcourt for last 2 years and are going nowhere, let that sink in.

Sigh. A first round exit. I can't remember our last first round exit. Yeah, *that* would be awful.

look, Noah's money is largely a sunk cost. The only question would be Noah vs Batum. If rolling the dice means a playoff spot, good lord, YES its worth it. Doesn't mean you won't have cap issues you'll have to deal with but so F'n what - we having more pressing winning issues.

No player comes with an injury-free guarantee and players who make a difference get paid. We do not have the ability to get premium talent and won't for a long time unless we take some risks.

No risk, no gain.

YOu also could buy out Noah and sign someone waived after the deadline or bring up a guy from the g league. Batum's deal is scary.

True. But the cap hit remains I think. That's why you would stretch a contract like Noah's.

But even stretching just flattens the cap hit a bit. The best strategy with Noah if he's playing hardball is to just pay him for at least this year and stretch him next year. Every dollar we pay him this year returns in cap space down the line and we aren't [unless things change] going anywhere this year where buying out or stretching Noah adds any value.

Furthermore, no matter what we do with Noah, he should be retained until after the threshold of being eligible for the playoffs. He doesn't deserve to be rewarded that way without concessions.

Otherwise its just a matter of writing a check to Noah or writing a check to Batum or whoever. Better to get any value out of that check.

You are making the assumption that their contracts are equal. Quite differently. Not counting next year where u really dont care about the cap, but in 2 years. The difference then is $52 million for Batum vs $19 million for Noah. No way is Batum worth that . Stupid trade, stupid risk. That would block u from getting a star in 2 yrs.

You are correct about the difference in lengths of contracts and as I and others have suggested, before doing such a transaction the Knicks could legitimately negotiate to also get a first rounder in that second year to compensate for the accounting headache.

I don't know that its worth it but Batum could be that star for us just as likely as THJ will ever be a star. Who knows? Assemble a team that can win and worry about 2019 in 2019.

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2/3/2018  7:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/3/2018  7:16 PM
No trading picks to get rid of a soon to be 2 year contract. If Noah doesn't want to accept less money let him rot at home or in the G league. For all the harm he's done the team, he doesn't deserve any less.

The dude doesn't appear to have anything left and even if he did, he doesn't deserve playing time over KP, Kanter, o Quinn or willy.

Welpee
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2/3/2018  10:25 PM
BigRedDog wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
martin wrote:
reub wrote:Batum makes us better for a long time and fills a position of need. Noah does nothing for us ever.

I guess if you want to be a capped out, barely first round exit team it's a nice move.

CHA has Batum, MKD and Kemba starting backcourt for last 2 years and are going nowhere, let that sink in.

Sigh. A first round exit. I can't remember our last first round exit. Yeah, *that* would be awful.

look, Noah's money is largely a sunk cost. The only question would be Noah vs Batum. If rolling the dice means a playoff spot, good lord, YES its worth it. Doesn't mean you won't have cap issues you'll have to deal with but so F'n what - we having more pressing winning issues.

No player comes with an injury-free guarantee and players who make a difference get paid. We do not have the ability to get premium talent and won't for a long time unless we take some risks.

No risk, no gain.

YOu also could buy out Noah and sign someone waived after the deadline or bring up a guy from the g league. Batum's deal is scary.

True. But the cap hit remains I think. That's why you would stretch a contract like Noah's.

But even stretching just flattens the cap hit a bit. The best strategy with Noah if he's playing hardball is to just pay him for at least this year and stretch him next year. Every dollar we pay him this year returns in cap space down the line and we aren't [unless things change] going anywhere this year where buying out or stretching Noah adds any value.

Furthermore, no matter what we do with Noah, he should be retained until after the threshold of being eligible for the playoffs. He doesn't deserve to be rewarded that way without concessions.

Otherwise its just a matter of writing a check to Noah or writing a check to Batum or whoever. Better to get any value out of that check.

You are making the assumption that their contracts are equal. Quite differently. Not counting next year where u really dont care about the cap, but in 2 years. The difference then is $52 million for Batum vs $19 million for Noah. No way is Batum worth that . Stupid trade, stupid risk. That would block u from getting a star in 2 yrs.

Yeah, I think Batum for Noah straight up is a non starter. The question is an expanded deal that includes Kemba if we also have to take on Batum?
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2/4/2018  12:53 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks are the dumbest managed team in the league
So you want to trade Noah and you send him home?
You don't play him at all even when he plays well?
They should have been playing him regularly if they wanted a shot at a trade.

How desperate do they look right now to make a trade?
No one is going to help them.
Infact seethe situation and know the Noah/Hornachek relationship sucks and make more demands.

What you do with Noah is what I've been saying for ages.
Give him 15 a game, let him show he still can play.
See the market. If you can't deal, at seasons end stretch provision him.


Noah's trade value was tanked the minute he signed his contract with the Knicks. Phil Jackson literally bid against himself. No amount of playing or featuring him this year would help his trade value. His contract, besides maybe Teletovic, is the worst in the entire league.

Stretching a player is a 2X + 1 scenario. That means FIVE YEARS. Which amounts to over 7 million a season in dead cap. Stretching him his expiring year is THREE YEARS. At over 6 million a season in dead cap. His AAV is brutal for stretching. The Knicks are better off just letting him expire organically. He's acting in a toxic manner because he wants to be bought out at 100 percent of his contract face and the sign for the vets minimum with the Timberwolves. Deng is trying the same strategy. Noah is sulking and being confrontational because of this strategy. Nothing going on is making his trade value better or worse, it's tanked period.

What is this crazy narrative that the Knicks hosed his trade value? He's aging. He's injury prone. He's a zero on offense. He's lost three steps. He's been suspended for juicing ( and players KNOW WHEN THESE TESTS ARE COMING, he's either lazy or ignorant or both) He's also showed up out of shape. He sulks.

You know who is more pissed than the Knicks? Than Hornacek? The NBAPA. Crap like what Noah is pulling is bad for business for the entire Players Association. It's the basis under which the owners go to war with the NBAPA during labor wars. Baron Davis getting fat and being a total d*ckhead on the Clippers and the back end of his Warriors tenure rubbed ALL OWNERS the wrong way. It only incensed them to further turn the screws on the players.

The real tactic is for the Knicks to say in public they will buy Noah out at 100 percent of his contract face, but would only do so if he donates all of his contract except for the veteran's minimum over the life of the total contract to Charity X, under which the Knicks would MATCH IT dollar for dollar. And if Noah refuses to do so, they'll simply keep him on the roster, bench him for being insubordinate, then donate 2 times his contract face anyway to said Charity X ( it's a tax write off anyway) From a PR position, it would be dropping a nuke on him. It would literally destroy him in public. Mike Shanahan did this to Al Davis. Davis had a nasty habit of not paying his head coaches their actual contracts when he fired them. Shanahan said don't give the money to me, give it to Charity X, out of principle, it's not about the money, it's about honoring one's word to me. This move destroyed Davis privately with sponsors, the league (even moreso than before), fellow owners, agents, the Players Association, the networks. The narrative shifted from Davis cheating Shanahan to Davis being the kind of guy to cheat needy children, i.e. the charity intended.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Noah plus a first?

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