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Hornacek Has To Help Frank More
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nixluva
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1/28/2018  3:25 PM
I've long been very concerned with the Play Calls that i've observed with Frank when he's in there versus Jack, but it's been hard to put my finger on what changes. Part of the issue is the Lineups that Frank is out there with but a lot of it is the actual Sets that Jeff calls.

What really opened my eyes was the recent play of Trey Burke and what seemed to me to be some different spacing than i've ever seen with Frank out there. So I went and looked at it again and lo and behold there was a HUGE difference in the spacing of Jeff's sets with Frank out there but also who Jeff selected to be the Pick setter and where the other players stationed themselves.

Look at the extreme spacing in these sets. Also notice he has Beasley in a 2 man with Burke which changes the kind of threat the screener presents verses a guy like KOQ.


Now Frank in his last good performance vs the Nets. He played well but really Jeff didn't do him any favors in these congested sets with defenders looking right at Frank and not many options for him to attack like the Burke sets. These sets aren't designed for Frank to be aggressive. He has to wait for guys to go in motion. It's a totally different offensive concept.


In order to help Frank to know he has to be the one to attack and to give him more SPACE to actually do that Jeff has to give him the same kinds of sets that he gave Burke. WHY is he not doing that?

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EnySpree
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1/28/2018  4:10 PM
It's because Frank can't and won't score. If Frank wants to get better, he has to put in the extra work. It's his career. I see the picture you're painting Nix.... but regardless how you want a difference, there's still opportunotes Frank gets as a point guard that Frank just screws up. He just won't shoot only if he's completely wide open
You know why I'm here....
nixluva
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1/28/2018  6:20 PM
EnySpree wrote:It's because Frank can't and won't score. If Frank wants to get better, he has to put in the extra work. It's his career. I see the picture you're painting Nix.... but regardless how you want a difference, there's still opportunotes Frank gets as a point guard that Frank just screws up. He just won't shoot only if he's completely wide open

I'm suggesting that Jeff can CLEARLY make it easier for Frank by simplifying things. Those sets call for Frank to have to pause and wait for his teammates to go into motion, set screens and there's no clear lanes because of that.

Burke got a lot more clearout type plays where there was no one else close except for the screener. that means the Help is far away and there's a HUGE WIDE OPEN SPACE for the guard to attack and not face a defender right away. I can't make it anymore clear by the stills to show you the HUGE GAPS that Jeff created with the spacing on those sets Trey had versus the typical play Frank gets where he's asked to try and make it work with less space and more Off Ball Motion from his teammates. The plays are NOT THE SAME!!!

EnySpree
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1/28/2018  9:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/28/2018  9:06 PM
nixluva wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It's because Frank can't and won't score. If Frank wants to get better, he has to put in the extra work. It's his career. I see the picture you're painting Nix.... but regardless how you want a difference, there's still opportunotes Frank gets as a point guard that Frank just screws up. He just won't shoot only if he's completely wide open

I'm suggesting that Jeff can CLEARLY make it easier for Frank by simplifying things. Those sets call for Frank to have to pause and wait for his teammates to go into motion, set screens and there's no clear lanes because of that.

Burke got a lot more clearout type plays where there was no one else close except for the screener. that means the Help is far away and there's a HUGE WIDE OPEN SPACE for the guard to attack and not face a defender right away. I can't make it anymore clear by the stills to show you the HUGE GAPS that Jeff created with the spacing on those sets Trey had versus the typical play Frank gets where he's asked to try and make it work with less space and more Off Ball Motion from his teammates. The plays are NOT THE SAME!!!

No I get the plays... but regardless of plays Frank just doesn't have it in him to shoot it. When the play doesn't work he's dead. He can't create anything outside of a set play. So back to the frames you posted, because Frank won't shoot it he's still not going to be effective even if he's "given" more space.

Guys like to say "so now were going to give up on a 19 year old?" No.... the kid has to grow. He's being given all the opportunities he deserves. He's not ready yet. He's just got to work. That's not on the coaches cuz Hornacek could get fired any day now. Nothing is secure even it comes to coaching. Frank all had to take control of his own career... that's why guys end up getting traded as stuff. People develop differently

You know why I'm here....
Vmart
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1/28/2018  9:38 PM
Frank has to shoot more. He can’t pass up shots for the pass most of the time. He has to develop that shot in game. It’s different than practice. He has to put up 10-12 shots a game. Someone needs to show him tapes of Kevin Durant from his rookie year. There wasn’t a shot he didn’t like.
nixluva
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1/28/2018  9:44 PM
EnySpree wrote:
nixluva wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It's because Frank can't and won't score. If Frank wants to get better, he has to put in the extra work. It's his career. I see the picture you're painting Nix.... but regardless how you want a difference, there's still opportunotes Frank gets as a point guard that Frank just screws up. He just won't shoot only if he's completely wide open

I'm suggesting that Jeff can CLEARLY make it easier for Frank by simplifying things. Those sets call for Frank to have to pause and wait for his teammates to go into motion, set screens and there's no clear lanes because of that.

Burke got a lot more clearout type plays where there was no one else close except for the screener. that means the Help is far away and there's a HUGE WIDE OPEN SPACE for the guard to attack and not face a defender right away. I can't make it anymore clear by the stills to show you the HUGE GAPS that Jeff created with the spacing on those sets Trey had versus the typical play Frank gets where he's asked to try and make it work with less space and more Off Ball Motion from his teammates. The plays are NOT THE SAME!!!

No I get the plays... but regardless of plays Frank just doesn't have it in him to shoot it. When the play doesn't work he's dead. He can't create anything outside of a set play. So back to the frames you posted, because Frank won't shoot it he's still not going to be effective even if he's "given" more space.

Guys like to say "so now were going to give up on a 19 year old?" No.... the kid has to grow. He's being given all the opportunities he deserves. He's not ready yet. He's just got to work. That's not on the coaches cuz Hornacek could get fired any day now. Nothing is secure even it comes to coaching. Frank all had to take control of his own career... that's why guys end up getting traded as stuff. People develop differently

I disagree cuz for the most part Jeff has NEVER treated Frank like a kid he wants to think of himself as a primary option. This is why I posted the stills. That's the easiest way to get across what the INTENTION of the play is.

On those Burke sets I posted the INTENTION of the play is for him to get the Screen and attack or dish. It's extremely simple with only one other guy in motion who was THJ getting a screen, but this is to occupy defenders so that Burke can attack having to beat only one guy before he gets to the paint and a help defender can get over there.

Frank almost NEVER gets that kind of play. His plays for the most part feature multiple guys in motion and screens. Frank has to WAIT for those plays to develop and he's having to watch for one of his teammates to get open. Then there are the times he does get to run PnR but not in the same exaggerated spacing you see on those Burke sets, where everyone else is closer to the Baseline and in the corners. The PAINT is clear of defenders for the most part and Burke isn't waiting for guys to run thru the progressions of a motion set like Frank is most often asked to do.

nixluva
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1/28/2018  10:08 PM
Frank was more confident in December and was showing some flashes of what he can be. Then January he just fell off the cliff.


DATE MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
December 24.2 2.9-7.5 .384 0.8-2.1 .375 0.9-1.2 .778 2.9 3.7 0.1 1.3 2.5 1.6 7.5
January 18.1 1.4-4.4 .311 0.5-1.7 .292 0.4-0.6 .625 2.1 3.1 0.4 0.4 1.9 1.9 3.6

IMO Frank is NOT too slow and he just needs a little help getting his confidence back. The main reason I posted those Burke sets was cuz I could see a clear difference in the spacing that a kid like Frank could use to maybe get his game going but Jeff doesn't call those sets for Frank. Sometimes a coach needs to give a kid a bit of help by putting him in a situation where he has no choice but to be more aggressive and look to score because that is the actual INTENTION of the PLAY.

newyorknewyork
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1/28/2018  10:57 PM
I remember bringing this up after Frank's like first 10 games. How he rarely got PNRs with a spread called. But I stopped paying attention to it honestly.
nixluva
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1/28/2018  11:32 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:I remember bringing this up after Frank's like first 10 games. How he rarely got PNRs with a spread called. But I stopped paying attention to it honestly.

So did I until I noticed the spacing and use of Early Spread PnR that Jeff gave to Burke. It's of an entirely different type than he's called for Frank. Frank MOSTLY gets the sets that are not really PG centric which is why he gives up the ball so early cuz that triggers the Off Ball motion of those sets.

fwk00
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1/29/2018  12:34 AM
EnySpree wrote:
nixluva wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It's because Frank can't and won't score. If Frank wants to get better, he has to put in the extra work. It's his career. I see the picture you're painting Nix.... but regardless how you want a difference, there's still opportunotes Frank gets as a point guard that Frank just screws up. He just won't shoot only if he's completely wide open

I'm suggesting that Jeff can CLEARLY make it easier for Frank by simplifying things. Those sets call for Frank to have to pause and wait for his teammates to go into motion, set screens and there's no clear lanes because of that.

Burke got a lot more clearout type plays where there was no one else close except for the screener. that means the Help is far away and there's a HUGE WIDE OPEN SPACE for the guard to attack and not face a defender right away. I can't make it anymore clear by the stills to show you the HUGE GAPS that Jeff created with the spacing on those sets Trey had versus the typical play Frank gets where he's asked to try and make it work with less space and more Off Ball Motion from his teammates. The plays are NOT THE SAME!!!

No I get the plays... but regardless of plays Frank just doesn't have it in him to shoot it. When the play doesn't work he's dead. He can't create anything outside of a set play. So back to the frames you posted, because Frank won't shoot it he's still not going to be effective even if he's "given" more space.

Guys like to say "so now were going to give up on a 19 year old?" No.... the kid has to grow. He's being given all the opportunities he deserves. He's not ready yet. He's just got to work. That's not on the coaches cuz Hornacek could get fired any day now. Nothing is secure even it comes to coaching. Frank all had to take control of his own career... that's why guys end up getting traded as stuff. People develop differently

People may develop differently but NBA PGs have a pattern of development that is fairly predictable and that is that they take 3-5 years to be dependable, confident floor leaders.

It is zero surprise that Burke looks better than Frankie *right now*. But maturity aside, nixluva's observations are well-noted. My guess is that JH, rather than messing with the kid, may be constraining his options for whatever reason whereas Burke who has played with THJ AND has a college track record may be getting offensive sets that emphasize his comfort zone.

No matter how the floor is set on offense, Frankie has a few years to go before absorbing it all in, owning it, and making it second nature. He'll get there.

What I find most disturbing about a lot of the recent narratives, Szczerbiak included, is this phony manufactured urgency to win-win-win. I, like every Knick fan, would love to see the Knicks make the playoffs. But not at the expense of discarding our youth for instant and fleeting gratification.

I don't believe Hornacek is on a hot seat nor do I believe that if he were on one he would have much control over it. This is a fair to midling NBA franchise flirting with playoff mediocrity at best. Hornacek is obviously doing his best with what he's got. No combination of mid-season win-now trades is going to dramatically change that position NOR do anything but derail the maturation of what is a decent future core.

It is typical Knickdom insanity to suggest the trading of Frank. The physical tools this guy brings to the table and the instinct he's shown are rare as hen's teeth. To hear, "he's too..." and "not a..." at age 19 is just like listening to crack addicts - crazy, out-of-control expectations that have no place in an intelligent conversation.

Burke is a real find. There's room for three at PG without cut-throat innuendo.

As a team the problem the Knicks have is too much average redundancy. At every position there is very little difference in talent - Porzingis the exception. If the Knicks make a move they need to sell high and bring back youth rather than getting mired in yet more mediocrity chasing a playoff spot - this is the NBA's purgatory.

With some important players dropping like flies it will be interesting to see which teams throw in the towel to tank and which look to reload before the trade deadline.

EnySpree
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1/29/2018  7:49 AM
nixluva wrote:Frank was more confident in December and was showing some flashes of what he can be. Then January he just fell off the cliff.


DATE MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
December 24.2 2.9-7.5 .384 0.8-2.1 .375 0.9-1.2 .778 2.9 3.7 0.1 1.3 2.5 1.6 7.5
January 18.1 1.4-4.4 .311 0.5-1.7 .292 0.4-0.6 .625 2.1 3.1 0.4 0.4 1.9 1.9 3.6

IMO Frank is NOT too slow and he just needs a little help getting his confidence back. The main reason I posted those Burke sets was cuz I could see a clear difference in the spacing that a kid like Frank could use to maybe get his game going but Jeff doesn't call those sets for Frank. Sometimes a coach needs to give a kid a bit of help by putting him in a situation where he has no choice but to be more aggressive and look to score because that is the actual INTENTION of the PLAY.

That's sounds like the g league right? Let him go down there and play around for 2 weeks. See tge fans up close, mix it up with hungry guys like XRM... he's not just a kid, he's a baby. He needs a hard reset. Then bring him back in a few weeks

You know why I'm here....
Cartman718
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1/29/2018  8:25 AM
I know he's 19 and all, but at what point does he help his case too? A smart player would see Burke taking his mins and simply step up his game. A fire would get lit under his skin if he knew this could mean down the line, no contract from Knicks.

Either he is simply not smart enough to understand the implications of a better playing Trey Burke or he doesn't care.

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
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1/29/2018  9:38 AM
Cartman718 wrote:I know he's 19 and all, but at what point does he help his case too? A smart player would see Burke taking his mins and simply step up his game. A fire would get lit under his skin if he knew this could mean down the line, no contract from Knicks.

Either he is simply not smart enough to understand the implications of a better playing Trey Burke or he doesn't care.


Or he's hit the wall? It's already happened to some of the top in this class.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
BigDaddyG
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1/29/2018  9:44 AM
EnySpree wrote:
nixluva wrote:Frank was more confident in December and was showing some flashes of what he can be. Then January he just fell off the cliff.


DATE MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
December 24.2 2.9-7.5 .384 0.8-2.1 .375 0.9-1.2 .778 2.9 3.7 0.1 1.3 2.5 1.6 7.5
January 18.1 1.4-4.4 .311 0.5-1.7 .292 0.4-0.6 .625 2.1 3.1 0.4 0.4 1.9 1.9 3.6

IMO Frank is NOT too slow and he just needs a little help getting his confidence back. The main reason I posted those Burke sets was cuz I could see a clear difference in the spacing that a kid like Frank could use to maybe get his game going but Jeff doesn't call those sets for Frank. Sometimes a coach needs to give a kid a bit of help by putting him in a situation where he has no choice but to be more aggressive and look to score because that is the actual INTENTION of the PLAY.

That's sounds like the g league right? Let him go down there and play around for 2 weeks. See tge fans up close, mix it up with hungry guys like XRM... he's not just a kid, he's a baby. He needs a hard reset. Then bring him back in a few weeks


Or maybe leave him with the big club and have him figure it out like he will have to when he's a vet? We can go back and forth on this but I don't believe the G-LEAGUE will simulate NBA practices, training, nutrition etc. If the argument is that he needs to his minutes reduced, I can see that. But 20 minutes a game is more valuable in the NBA than putting overinflated stats in the G-League.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
GoNyGoNyGo
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1/29/2018  9:52 AM
I am sure Frank cares. IT may simply be a case of he is not seeing it yet. The NBA game is too fast for him at this point. Defensively he is fine but on the O he is thinking too much and nothing is natural. He needs more playing time.

At this point, NY should go with Burke and Frank. Jack should sit or backup the 2 but I'd rather see Dotson get some minutes there.

Yet another mistake by Dolan. When will it end?
Rookie
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1/29/2018  11:12 AM
I don’t see where the bad spacing is on the coach. The kid has no handles and telegraphs lazy passes. He can’t shoot or break down a defense. Right now he’s just a guy who dribbles the ball up the floor and plays good defese. This season, what you see is what you got. He has alot of work to do over the summer. 9 minutes a game sounds about right going forward. Don’t think the G league is going to help Frank this year either.
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1/29/2018  11:44 AM
The problem with Frank right now is that he has the Euro PG mentality which is to play within the system. He definitely has the skills to be more of an attacking PG but his mental makeup is hindering his play. Just a reminder, he is a rookie and only 19 years old. To me when you evaluate him, you look at what his strengths are. Does his strengths show that he can be a very good PG. What are his weaknesses? Can it be improved? The answer to all those questions are YES. His defensive skills are All-Star caliber. His passing ability and vision is very good. His shooting form looks great. You gotta give this kid time.

I don't know if they should put him in the G-League. I think they should start him already and tell him to be more aggressive. His ability to setup KP is very good. I think this would help Frank and KP.

LivingLegend
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1/29/2018  12:16 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:I know he's 19 and all, but at what point does he help his case too? A smart player would see Burke taking his mins and simply step up his game. A fire would get lit under his skin if he knew this could mean down the line, no contract from Knicks.

Either he is simply not smart enough to understand the implications of a better playing Trey Burke or he doesn't care.


Or he's hit the wall? It's already happened to some of the top in this class.

Yeah - I think there are a few things going on here.

1) Frand definitely needs to build up his body on a few fronts - strength, endurance, quickness/explosion
2) He is very young and I don't believe he has really had an off season in a long time -- think he went from league play to Euro playoffs, to NBA camp/season (he may simply be out of gas)
3) This is a huge transition not only jumping to NBA against grown men, but culturally coming to US and NY and all the expectations

Kid probably feels like he has lived 10 years in last 18 months -- I think with light at end of the tunnel he will perk up post all-star break - we will feed him more minutes and he will bounce back with some solid play.

Afterward he will get some prolonged REST - then get in gym to work on body/game and come back a much more prepared/relaxed player - still only at 20 next season.

Zebo13
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1/29/2018  12:32 PM
fwk00 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
nixluva wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It's because Frank can't and won't score. If Frank wants to get better, he has to put in the extra work. It's his career. I see the picture you're painting Nix.... but regardless how you want a difference, there's still opportunotes Frank gets as a point guard that Frank just screws up. He just won't shoot only if he's completely wide open

I'm suggesting that Jeff can CLEARLY make it easier for Frank by simplifying things. Those sets call for Frank to have to pause and wait for his teammates to go into motion, set screens and there's no clear lanes because of that.

Burke got a lot more clearout type plays where there was no one else close except for the screener. that means the Help is far away and there's a HUGE WIDE OPEN SPACE for the guard to attack and not face a defender right away. I can't make it anymore clear by the stills to show you the HUGE GAPS that Jeff created with the spacing on those sets Trey had versus the typical play Frank gets where he's asked to try and make it work with less space and more Off Ball Motion from his teammates. The plays are NOT THE SAME!!!

No I get the plays... but regardless of plays Frank just doesn't have it in him to shoot it. When the play doesn't work he's dead. He can't create anything outside of a set play. So back to the frames you posted, because Frank won't shoot it he's still not going to be effective even if he's "given" more space.

Guys like to say "so now were going to give up on a 19 year old?" No.... the kid has to grow. He's being given all the opportunities he deserves. He's not ready yet. He's just got to work. That's not on the coaches cuz Hornacek could get fired any day now. Nothing is secure even it comes to coaching. Frank all had to take control of his own career... that's why guys end up getting traded as stuff. People develop differently

People may develop differently but NBA PGs have a pattern of development that is fairly predictable and that is that they take 3-5 years to be dependable, confident floor leaders.

It is zero surprise that Burke looks better than Frankie *right now*. But maturity aside, nixluva's observations are well-noted. My guess is that JH, rather than messing with the kid, may be constraining his options for whatever reason whereas Burke who has played with THJ AND has a college track record may be getting offensive sets that emphasize his comfort zone.

No matter how the floor is set on offense, Frankie has a few years to go before absorbing it all in, owning it, and making it second nature. He'll get there.

What I find most disturbing about a lot of the recent narratives, Szczerbiak included, is this phony manufactured urgency to win-win-win. I, like every Knick fan, would love to see the Knicks make the playoffs. But not at the expense of discarding our youth for instant and fleeting gratification.

I don't believe Hornacek is on a hot seat nor do I believe that if he were on one he would have much control over it. This is a fair to midling NBA franchise flirting with playoff mediocrity at best. Hornacek is obviously doing his best with what he's got. No combination of mid-season win-now trades is going to dramatically change that position NOR do anything but derail the maturation of what is a decent future core.

It is typical Knickdom insanity to suggest the trading of Frank. The physical tools this guy brings to the table and the instinct he's shown are rare as hen's teeth. To hear, "he's too..." and "not a..." at age 19 is just like listening to crack addicts - crazy, out-of-control expectations that have no place in an intelligent conversation.

Burke is a real find. There's room for three at PG without cut-throat innuendo.

As a team the problem the Knicks have is too much average redundancy. At every position there is very little difference in talent - Porzingis the exception. If the Knicks make a move they need to sell high and bring back youth rather than getting mired in yet more mediocrity chasing a playoff spot - this is the NBA's purgatory.

With some important players dropping like flies it will be interesting to see which teams throw in the towel to tank and which look to reload before the trade deadline.

Beautifully said and written.

newyorknewyork
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1/29/2018  1:21 PM
Rookie wrote:I don’t see where the bad spacing is on the coach. The kid has no handles and telegraphs lazy passes. He can’t shoot or break down a defense. Right now he’s just a guy who dribbles the ball up the floor and plays good defese. This season, what you see is what you got. He has alot of work to do over the summer. 9 minutes a game sounds about right going forward. Don’t think the G league is going to help Frank this year either.

He doesn't have the handle to beat a guy one on one at the moment. But he does a good job get by a defender utilizing a pick for the most part. While he does offer many lazy telegraphed passes. Think back to most of them and they were all pretty much easy picking as there usually wouldn't much space created from Frank to KOQ or KP or Beas. A lot of that has to do with Frank relying to much on the roll man though to make the whole play.

Frank usually gets his picks though during a set motion where he gives the ball up to the wing. Sets a pick for another guard or wing. Then pops back up to receive the ball if none of those other motions lead to a pass and shot attempt. Then from their he would call for a pick. Would like to see more top of the key spread the floor PNR seeing what Frank can make happen. Thats a roll and situation he can work with now imo as he tries to build up his game.

The other stuff clearly isn't working for him offensively. But at the same time I don't feel Jeff wants to clearly put the ball in Franks hands like that.

Hornacek Has To Help Frank More

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