The Knicks brain trust needs to surgically decide who they're keeping and keep ratcheting up the talent when its available. Obviously selling high on certain players makes sense but turnover needs to be held at a minimum.

And the season is far from a washout. Plenty of basketball to play. Any prolonged winning streak and the Knicks are playoff bound.

I'm not nearly as down on our players as in previous years. We don't field an all-star squad but what we do field is a young, scrappy team who belong in the NBA. If we trade, it will be from strength and not weakness. We have players contending teams would love to have.

SocraticBallin22 wrote:Let's face it. Tonight was the second game of a 7 game road trip (the longest they've had since 1989).

Knicks played a Memphis team that were without their three best players: Gasol, Conley and Parsons.

They were blown out for most of the game after making a late push too little too late. If they couldn't win this game against a depleted roster bereft of all their stars, then how many games can they win on this trip? The rest of the games are only going to get tougher.

What this game showed me, and what the last few games has shown me, is that the big starting lineup of KP/Kanter simply doesn't work in the modern day NBA. Kanter dominated the 1st quarter offensively in the paint, but the Knicks couldn't get any stops and were still losing. The starting lineup doesn't have the foot speed/ lateral quickness to player smaller, more athletic lineups. They get killed by penetration and give up wide open 3's, as was witnessed tonight against no name players.

Jack has played admirably well (coming off serious injuries) and given a partially guaranteed contract for the 1st half of the season, but he is a stopgap who is not the answer at point guard at 34 years old. He was a career backup and no longer has the quickness to play starter minutes.

It's time to finally play our best lineup: Frank starting at the point, KP at the 5 and Beas at the 4. Horny went to it too late tonight and they almost came back.

It's time to bench Lance (who is really giving us nothing) and play more of Baker and Burke, even Dotson (to develop and see what we have).

If we're going to lose, and I can't see us winning during this brutal road stretch, we might as well start playing the youth--- sooner than later and-- and having them gain much needed experience.

It's either now or at the end of the road trip when it will really be over. The time has come.

I still think as a young team, the winning at home was who they were. The struggles on the road, that is a young team.

And I get that Lee & Jack are veterans. But as a group, it's a young team.

I didn't watch the game - by the time I knew they were playing, they were down 20 heading into the 2nd half- but what is up with Burke not getting any time? What does Jeff see in Lance that he can play him 14 minutes with him not scoring?

I'm beginning to come around on the fire Jeff front.

Why does KP play 33 minutes? They were down 20 in the first half? Honestly, I wouldn't start him in the 2nd half. Minute restrictions! For your 22 year old star who is gassed, and developing bad habits!

SupremeCommander wrote:I've been saying this for a looooooooooooooooong time... our road stretch is going to be rough. The Knicks suck on the road. Best case, we are a road playoff team. We will get slaughtered. We need to trade everyone that let's our future get brighter. We need to free up minutes for guys like Willy and Ron. Our front office basically said that our core is 25 year olds. If that's the blueprint, that needs to get bolstered. It's common sense. Any other stance is delusional

Making the playoffs, and even getting crushed, is great for development. Vets who are good teammates, like Jack, Lee, and Thomas, are good for development of youth too. It's naive to say that rebuilding teams should be playing all young guys all the time. We are rebuilding right now, but are overachieving for a reason. Porzingis and co are learning how to win. Can't just play these guys big minutes when they haven't earned it and expect them to develop into a winning team. Losing gets old, and guys stop trying. Even as we fall further from .500, it's important to keep going and try to build momentum where we can. I think Perry and Mills understand this. There's a huge difference between rebuilding and tanking. Even if we likely miss playoffs, i think it is important for someone like Porzingis to lead this team to more wins than we won in 2017 (31) and 2016 (32). It will go a long way for this team.

VCoug wrote:

Making the playoffs, and even getting crushed, is great for development.

What are you basing this on? I've been hearing this same thing from anti-tankers for well over a decade as some altruism but there's absolutely no evidence that it's the case.

What evidence are you looking for exactly? Playoff experience is better for player development than missing playoffs and going on vacation. That's just common sense right?

Knixkik wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Making the playoffs, and even getting crushed, is great for development.

What are you basing this on? I've been hearing this same thing from anti-tankers for well over a decade as some altruism but there's absolutely no evidence that it's the case.

What evidence are you looking for exactly? Playoff experience is better for player development than missing playoffs and going on vacation. That's just common sense right?

If your only argument is "common sense" then you don't have an argument. Did getting our asses kicked in the playoffs in the 1st round of 2011 and 2012 and then the 2nd round of 2013 help us in any way? If you look back at the 7/8 seeds in previous seasons, how many of them show any significant improvement in subsequent seasons?

jrodmc wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Making the playoffs, and even getting crushed, is great for development.

What are you basing this on? I've been hearing this same thing from anti-tankers for well over a decade as some altruism but there's absolutely no evidence that it's the case.

What evidence are you looking for exactly? Playoff experience is better for player development than missing playoffs and going on vacation. That's just common sense right?

If your only argument is "common sense" then you don't have an argument. Did getting our asses kicked in the playoffs in the 1st round of 2011 and 2012 and then the 2nd round of 2013 help us in any way? If you look back at the 7/8 seeds in previous seasons, how many of them show any significant improvement in subsequent seasons?

Yeah, who the hell wants to watch playoff basketball? Continual draft day and facepainting during March Madness is so much more fun.
And your common sense tells you losing game 6 in the 2nd round by 7 points equates to getting one's ass kicked? Did you even watch that series?

Yeah, actually, I would say that the draft is more fun than watching us get swept in the 1st round. And, unlike playing 4 whole playoff games, the draft has a chance to improve the team in the future. And yes, I did watch that playoffs. We nearly lost to a crappy Boston team in the 1st round and then lost in the 2nd round. Are we really going to start bragging about the one time we made the 2nd round of the playoffs this millennium and lost?

And the pro-Hinkie Phillie crowd has very little to show for their work, either. You need to draft well and make some brilliant trades. Tanking for lottery position works how often?

Philly doesn't have much to show but they're better than us, younger than us, and have a brighter future. And how often does not tanking work?

We won 17 games a few seasons ago. Are we soooooo much better now?

We won 32, 31, and are on pace for 36 wins. Not great but very obviously better than 17 wins.

technomaster wrote:What does a true rebuild entail? Isn't that what we're doing already?

We have 2 young, promising players in KP and Ntilikina. Our 3rd (Willy) is in the doghouse at the moment. Looking a little older, we have two 25 year olds in Kanter (at least for now) and THJr, both of whom have been productive at mid-levelish contracts and still have borderline all-star type of upside. And... now we have Trey Burke, another 25 year old.

I guess the debate is whether to go into full on tank mode to get a better pick, or trade some of our young assets that is higher on them than we are and is willing us to give us something with more upside.

Coaches who aren't also the team gm/president have a hard time coaching to barely lose; without being their own boss, losing will lead to getting fired. So Horny is always going to try to win as long as he's coach.

It is a rebuild but not a complete rebuild. A true rebuild would entail scaling back Jack's minutes (or taking him out of the rotation) and playing Frank, Burke and Baker the pg minutes. It would also mean taking Lance out of the rotation and giving his minutes to Doug (on a larger scale), Baker and even Dotson (see what we have).

Also, we should reward Beas and give him an expanded role and see if we have something in him for next year. See if Beas at the 4 and KP at the 5 works for extended minutes. KO or Kanter would have to be traded to free up minutes for Willy (part of our future who is not getting better on the bench). Also, seeing if you can get a 1st round pick for Lee who has value. I don't see the point in playing Jack, Lance and even KO for the second half of the season. We're not making the playoffs with this roster.