[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

ESPN Insider 9/2 : Unmoveable Contract? There's no such thing
Author Thread
CTKnicksfan
Posts: 20312
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/24/2004
Member: #572
9/2/2004  2:17 PM
Allan Houston is the featured player in this article, which of course includes far too many current and former Knicks. But the point is of course that these guys can be moved, even before their last year.


FOR SALE: Injured Shooting Guard with limited passing and rebounding
skills and even worse defensive abilities for only $15.9 million.

That was last year. This year, the asking price for Allan Houston is even higher and, believe it or not, he will become an even hotter commodity next year at this time when his six-year contract worth a total of $100.4 million will have only two years left on it.

That's right. The best thing Houston has going for him is his expiration date that reads Summer of 2007, when the team paying his salary gets to wipe him off its books to clear space for another shot at the next great 3-point shooter or low-post threat with unbelievable potential and expanding wingspan.

But if you think Houston or any other NBA player with a bloated
contract and diminishing skills is untradeable until that final year
of his contract, then you are wrong.

There's a taker out there, somewhere, for the expensive Houston.
Somewhere, somehow, there seems to be that special owner or general
manager who believes there is some value left in, say, an aging
guard who has never had more than eight assists or four steals in a
game in his career like the aforementioned guard in New York.

Take, for instance, Penny Hardaway. After averaging 20 points per
game for three straight seasons, Hardaway's average fell to 16.4 in
1998 and 15.8 in 1999. He made $8.5 million in his final season in
Orlando before being sent to the Phoenix Suns for Pat Garrity, Danny
Manning and two future first-rounders.

Despite declining statistics, Penny was supposed to team with Jason
Kidd and become Backcourt 2000. A little over three years later,
Hardaway's scoring was down to 8.7 points per game while his salary
was up to $12.37 million and the Suns were ready to deal him yet again.

This time, the former all-star who had missed 24 games the previous
season, was sent to the New York Knicks (along with Stephon Marbury
and Cezary Trybanski) for, hold your breath, Antonio McDyess, Howard
Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, Milos Vujanic and two future first-rounders. Despite declining statistics and an escalating salary, Penny was traded again.

He isn't the only one. In 2002, after averaging 14.8 points per game
for the New Jersey Nets and making $10.8 million as a recently maxed-out player, Keith Van Horn was traded along with Todd MacCulloch to the Philadelphia 76ers for Dikembe Mutombo. A year later after averaging 15.9 points per game and making $12 million, Van Horn was traded to Knicks. Midway through the next season after averaging 16.4 points per game and making $13.3 million, he was traded yet again to the Milwaukee Bucks.

At one point in time, the Nets believed Van Horn was their franchise
player. When they realized they were wrong, the Nets traded him. As
did the 76ers and Knicks. The Golden State Warriors know the feeling: They traded away another player once thought to be a franchise prospect, Antawn Jamison. The Bucks came to the same conclusion when they traded away Tim Thomas. Shaquille O'Neal made $24.7 million and the Lakers were able to trade him.

In fact, of the 24 top-paid players in the NBA last season, 16 of
them have been traded after being awarded max or near-max contracts. And that list doesn't include Brian Grant, who averaged only 6.9
rebounds per game as a starting center in the NBA while getting paid
$12.1 million and was traded to the Los Angeles Lakers. Or Antonio
Davis, who was getting paid $12.9 million last year to average 8.6
points per game for the Raptors before getting traded to the Bulls,
for whom he averaged 8.9 points per game.

Overpaid, under-productive players who often get injured while still
having multiple years left on their contracts still get traded as a
matter of routine in the NBA. Everyone is tradeable;the "untouchable" is a myth.

Players like Shawn Kemp and Juwan Howard were labeled as such until,
of course, they were traded. Jamison and Antoine Walker are recent
examples. Steve Nash and Erick Dampier could be future ones.

The reason: In a 29-team league last year, there were 45 players who
made max or near max-out dollars. In other words, there were 29 teams creating 45 franchise-type players in terms of salary. That's about 1.5 franchise players per team. And that doesn't include the likes of Lamar Odom or Mike Bibby, who made just under $10 million.

That's simply too many franchise players for any one league. By simple math, it's about 16 too many, meaning that more than half the league is looking to swap bad contracts. Again, of the 24 top-paid
players in the NBA last season, 16 of them have been traded after
being awarded max or near-max contracts.

Which brings us back to Houston, who missed 32 games last year to
injury and will become the third-highest player in the NBA. Only
Kevin Garnett and O'Neal will earn more next season. Houston is,
perhaps, the second or third-best guard on his own team. Houston is especially intriguing because -- while he has become a more accurate shooter -- his rebounding has diminished over the years. It's dwindled from a paltry 3.3 per game in 2002 to 2.8 the year after and 2.4 last year. His assists per game have gone from 2.7 per game to 2.0 last year and he actually averaged 0.04 blocks per game. In 1,799 minutes last year in over 50 games, he managed only two blocks. He shoots the 3 and is automatic from the free-throw line. He is a taller version of Steve Kerr, only less accurate. He is Fred Hoiberg
without the hustle. He is Casey Jacobsen with gray hair.

But what if the Miami Heat were to trade Eddie Jones, who can opt
out of his contract next year, along with high school phenom Dorrell
Wright and 6-foot-10 Malik Allen to the Knicks in exchange for Houston? The Knicks would get a serviceable guard, young stud and some much needed height while the Heat get the perimeter threat to unleash O'Neal inside and all of a sudden the most untradeable player in the NBA becomes a key component of a championship contending team.
And the bidding for a defensive liability with two years left on his contract will continue.
AUTOADVERT
firefly
Posts: 23183
Alba Posts: 17
Joined: 7/26/2004
Member: #721
United Kingdom
9/2/2004  2:44 PM
where did he get this trade from? is it the start of another fabulous 62 day rumor to while the time away?

anyone know anything about dorrell wright?
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
CTKnicksfan
Posts: 20312
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/24/2004
Member: #572
9/2/2004  4:26 PM
Posted by firefly:

where did he get this trade from? is it the start of another fabulous 62 day rumor to while the time away?

anyone know anything about dorrell wright?

Seems to just be speculation on the part of the author. Shaq and Eddie didn't get along in LA, but that was years ago. Houston if healthy has the chance to be a much more explosive scorer than Jones at this point. Jones is less injury prone, but in my mind just a step above Penny at this point. He's still a capable starter but on the Knicks he'd likely back up Crawford. Houston on the Heat could work. He could carry the scoring load for stretches if Shaq was in foul trouble or hurt. But only if he's healthy.

I'm an Allan fan and hope he can come back and have a big year for us. But I would move him if at all possible in a deal like that for younger players and/or players with shorter contracts. a 3 for 1 deal like this guy is proposing would mean clearing additional roster spots.

Sorry don't know anything about Wright. He was the Heat's first rounder this year. Not sure if they signed him yet but if so he's not eligible to be traded until Dec 15th.

Either way, this sounds like speculation and has a low chance, if any, of happening. But it's really just to prove a point. There will be takers out there for overpaid guys even with 2-3 years left on their deals.
Silverfuel
Posts: 31750
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
USA
9/2/2004  4:33 PM
Posted by CTKnicksfan:

Allan Houston is the featured player in this article, which of course includes far too many current and former Knicks. But the point is of course that these guys can be moved, even before their last year.


FOR SALE: Injured Shooting Guard with limited passing and rebounding
skills and even worse defensive abilities for only $15.9 million.

Which brings us back to Houston, who missed 32 games last year to
injury and will become the third-highest player in the NBA. Only
Kevin Garnett and O'Neal will earn more next season. Houston is,
perhaps, the second or third-best guard on his own team.
Houston is especially intriguing because -- while he has become a more accurate shooter -- his rebounding has diminished over the years. It's dwindled from a paltry 3.3 per game in 2002 to 2.8 the year after and 2.4 last year. His assists per game have gone from 2.7 per game to 2.0 last year and he actually averaged 0.04 blocks per game. In 1,799 minutes last year in over 50 games, he managed only two blocks. He shoots the 3 and is automatic from the free-throw line. He is a taller version of Steve Kerr, only less accurate. He is Fred Hoiberg without the hustle. He is Casey Jacobsen with gray hair.
At least people are not accepting that he is no more than a taller, less accurate Steve Kerr.

The problem is the guy has the body to do more than just "fake a drive, fake another drive, fake another drive and then shoot" taking 10 seconds off the clock.

If we can trade him it would be great but now I would just rather we **** on him and clear the cap space. I dont want stuff like Eddie Jones and Malik Allen for him. We can sit on his injuerd ass for 2 years and then go after a FA if we have cap space
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
teslawlo
Posts: 21482
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 7/13/2004
Member: #699
USA
9/2/2004  6:36 PM
"Eddie Jones, who can opt
out of his contract next year, along with high school phenom Dorrell
Wright and 6-foot-10 Malik Allen"
HAHAHAHAHAHA. Wow, Miami & Riley would be pretty stupid if they did that. Don't count out Mr. Wright, he's a future star for sure.
http://allknicks.com
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
9/2/2004  6:47 PM
I don't know about that specific trade the author suggested, but if (and it's a huge if) Houston is 100% recovered, I could see the Heat being very interested in him
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
9/2/2004  7:22 PM
even if he recovers from his knee injury, the chances of him coming back to where he was before he injured his knee is very slim...more than likely, he'll be a 16 - 18 ppg type scorer for the rest of his career...if he gets back to 20+ ppg form, i'd be extremely shocked...MIA won't give up all that to get a 16 - 18 ppg scorer because Jones gives them that now as it is, & plays alot better defense than Houston besides.

[Edited by - TMS on 09/02/2004 19:23:01]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
9/2/2004  8:53 PM
Posted by TMS:

even if he recovers from his knee injury, the chances of him coming back to where he was before he injured his knee is very slim...more than likely, he'll be a 16 - 18 ppg type scorer for the rest of his career...if he gets back to 20+ ppg form, i'd be extremely shocked...MIA won't give up all that to get a 16 - 18 ppg scorer because Jones gives them that now as it is, & plays alot better defense than Houston besides.

[Edited by - TMS on 09/02/2004 19:23:01]
Eddie Jone's doesn't really provide anything that they don't already get from Dwayne Wade. A healthy Houston, in contrast, would work *perfectly* with Shaq. Houston could brutally punish teams for double teaming Shaq.
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
9/2/2004  9:56 PM
Well, Terry Brown is silly. His description of Allan is pretty biased and seems mostly based in bitter bitter stew. I think he's really just a frustrated Knicks fan though. Almost all his rants are directed at the Knicks...hmm...come to think of it, I've never seen Isles and Terry in the same room at the same time?

Actually, I kind of like the proposed trade. Allan would make the Heat deadly if he's healthy. Eddie Jones is competent but not good enough in the things he does better than Allan to make up for the pronounced shooting difference. Allan is a quality player. You can still win a championship with him on the right team. The Heat is that team. And we've all seen Wade shoot from the outside. They need Allan.

From the Knicks point of view: Eddie Jones gives them a perimeter defender and rebounder from the guard position. He'd complement Jamal and Marbury and he could be moved at the trading deadline as he could opt out and would be attractive. Dorell Wright is a fantastic young prospect. He has athleticism, quickness and ability. He's very very good. He's probably the only reason Miami wouldn't make this trade.

I love Houston, but if the Knicks can make a trade that will help facilitate the addition of a big man.
¿ △ ?
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
9/2/2004  10:08 PM
You might get the Heat to take Houston, but I don't know about getting them to also give up a good young player. That's probably asking for too much
NumberTwoPencil
Posts: 20936
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/31/2003
Member: #481
USA
9/3/2004  3:05 AM
That's a sweet Houston trade. I can't think of a better one. Houston gets on a contender and the Knicks come out slightly _ahead_ in the end.

Silverfuel
Posts: 31750
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
USA
9/3/2004  7:51 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

Well, Terry Brown is silly. His description of Allan is pretty biased and seems mostly based in bitter bitter stew.
Its not biased at all. It is nothing but the truth. What did he say there to make you think he was biased in either praising or bashing Houston?

The truth is that Houston would work well in Miami because he would be a 3rd option in a well setup offense. Houston is nothing but a 3rd option. Shaq is dominant in the middle but he always like to play with athletic and versatile 2 guards. Houston would be like a 'Glen Rice' on one of the old Laker teams.
Posted by TMS:

he'll be a 16 - 18 ppg type scorer for the rest of his career...if he gets back to 20+ ppg form, i'd be extremely shocked
Houston has had only 2 years of 20+ ppg scoring. He is a career 17.5ppg scorer!!!!! I would be shocked if he can ever score 20ppg in a winning or meaningful effort for a team! He is a very average SG who is clogging up around 50% of the salary cap for just specialised Jump Shooting abilities.

No other team would be foolish enough to pick up Houston's contract before the last year of his contract. Maybe with 2 years left, they might pull the trade and stick the knicks with a bad deal or something but I doubt any team would do it with 3 years left on his contract which is very unfortunate.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
9/3/2004  9:53 AM
Houston has had only 2 years of 20+ ppg scoring. He is a career 17.5ppg scorer!!!!! I would be shocked if he can ever score 20ppg in a winning or meaningful effort for a team! He is a very average SG who is clogging up around 50% of the salary cap for just specialised Jump Shooting abilities.


before he went down to his knee injury, he was averaging over 20 ppg for 2 consecutive seasons...that was my point...i don't see the MIA Heat being interested in this deal as proposed here unless Houston was playing at that form...why would they trade away their 17 ppg scorer who plays defense for a 17 ppg scorer who doesn't, & in the process give up 2 young players to boot? & that's not even factoring in the contractual issues here either.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Vmart
Posts: 31800
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/23/2002
Member: #247
USA
9/3/2004  11:31 AM
I can't believe he compared him to Kerr. Kerr never took his man down low and hit a turn around fading jumper on his man. H20 can hit jumpers with a hand in his face effortlessly. It sadden me that people just don't see the greatness in H20's game because of his salary. Last year his numbers were down because of the injury that he played with. The man step on the court to save peoples jobs when he should have been resting until January, february like other players that had surgery done, Webber, Ray Allen. He still put up decent numbers on a hobbled knee. If H20 is 95% recovered he is good for 20+ points a night and excellent shooting. When shooting is down in the NBA its good to know that the Knicks have one of the better shooter in the game.
fishmike
Posts: 53145
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
9/3/2004  12:12 PM
I would like to see Steve Kerr or Fred Hoiberg average 22 points a game for a season w/ no post presence, no playmaking PG and the team knowing your going to shoot everytime you catch the ball.

Stupid article... Allan may be one dimensional but his one dimension is in a place those guys cant sniff. He he stinks because he's hurt or hobbled thats a different story but he was never a run/jump player. If his knee is stable he's going to get a lot of open looks in a 3 guard set w/ Crawford and Marbury.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Kwazimodal
Posts: 20896
Alba Posts: 5
Joined: 8/3/2004
Member: #728
9/3/2004  1:06 PM
Steve Kerr wasnt as talented as Houston but in their prime Id rather he took the 3 with time running out.He was better in crunch time.Houston faded in the 4th,Kerr stepped up.

[Edited by - kwazimodal on 09/03/2004 13:07:18]
Silverfuel
Posts: 31750
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
USA
9/3/2004  1:07 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Allan may be one dimensional but his one dimension is in a place those guys cant sniff.
The problem is we tried to run our offense around this one dimensional player for 2 years. No one ever tried to run an offense around Steve Kerr or Fred Hoiberg or they might have been able to come close or even score 20pts plus in one season.

Our fault or making a jump shooting specialist our franchise. Steve Kerr is an exageration but its the same idea. My argument is not for Steve Kerr so dont bring up his name. You cannot make a 3rd option shooting specialist your franchise and lockup your cap space.

Mitch Richmond scored 20+ ppg from 1991 to 1998 or Kendall Gill scored 21.8 ppg in 1996-97. Glen Rice, another smooth shooter with some more moves than Houston who scored 20+ ppg in the 90's. 20ppg is over rated because it can be done on a bad team. The best way to use a specialist, any type of specialist is as the 3rd best player on the team.

The 1st is a franchise, the 2nd player is someone that can do anything on the court really well. Player that comes to mind is Scottie from Chicago. The Detroit team of last year is an exception but they got hot at the right time and Lakers had problems at the same time but then again, they did not have a single player in the 20+ ppg. I bring up the 20ppg is because that what some posters have sad separates Houston from the rest of the crowd.

The thing thats wrong about this article is that no one will want Houston. He does not do enough on the court to make his contract worth it for anyone to get. The only way we can trade Houston is in the last year of his contract. If thats the case, I just want him to be off the books and retire as a Knick.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
fishmike
Posts: 53145
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
9/3/2004  1:30 PM
Posted by Kwazimodal:

Steve Kerr wasnt as talented as Houston but in their prime Id rather he took the 3 with time running out.He was better in crunch time.Houston faded in the 4th,Kerr stepped up.

[Edited by - kwazimodal on 09/03/2004 13:07:18]
I guess you didnt watch any of his playoff games? I'm confused. Everytime the Knicks advanced you could point to some key shot or big game from Houston that got them to advance.
The problem is we tried to run our offense around this one dimensional player for 2 years.
No doubt... but I dont blame Houston for that. The good part is this is no longer the case. While we still dont have a bonafide post player we now have 2 guys that can force a defense to collapse on them leaving Houston open *somewhere*. When Houston was the primary option the closest we had was Spree, and Crawford and Marbury are both better playmakers.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Silverfuel
Posts: 31750
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
USA
9/3/2004  1:45 PM
Posted by fishmike:

No doubt... but I dont blame Houston for that.
No one blames Houston for being our Franchise player. That was Layden's fault. I blame Houston for not trying to be anything more than 1-dimensional.

It was ownership and Managements fault to not recognize that Houston could never be anything more than a 1-dimensional specialist. He is not a Franchise 2-guard like T-Mac or Kobe. He is not even a close second like Pierce, Iverson or Vince. I would say he just slightly under the Ray Allen's of the League. It was Layden's fault for thinking a big contract would suddenly make Houston someone he is not. He can never become a franchise.

Now, the article tries to tell us that this mistake can be fixed with a trade? NO WAY!! I cannot see any other team wanting him with 3 years left on his horrible contract. Not without sticking us with something worse.
Posted by fishmike:

The good part is this is no longer the case.
And I thank the lord for that every single time I watch a Knick game.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
fishmike
Posts: 53145
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
9/3/2004  2:20 PM
despite being insanely overpaid if he comes back he will be an ultra important role player. He is one of the top 5 shooters in the NBA and he nails that shot with a minimum of space. Look at how little space he would create with those bad pump fakes, and he would still drain that jumper.

IF he's healthy he right up there or better than Redd, Allen, Reggie, Peja... whoever.

I have a lot of hope... he did return healthy once and was playing at a high level until that nasty knee on knee collision that sidelined him the rest of the year.

Bottom line is he came back too fast and Chaney played him 40 minutes a night because he was terrified of losing his job.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
ESPN Insider 9/2 : Unmoveable Contract? There's no such thing

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy