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Re-build, sell the vets or go for the playoffs and now?
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nyknickzingis
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1/13/2018  7:32 AM
The Knicks are very close to being a playoff team. They have a franchise player incapable of physically handling the demands of a superstar and in a year I don't see that as an issue. I am almost certain if we brought back this same team plus a better starting point guard, we are a playoff lock. KP will keep working on his body. An inconsistent KP and a consistent KP makes a difference of 5 more wins right now. He will get there. Frank will also be better a year from now.

What I'm saying though is more concerning Hardaway, CLee, Beasley, Kanter, O'Quinn, Thomas. These guys are all 26+ (or around there) in the peak of their basketball career. If you want them on your team, you need to try and win now. The Knicks though have been plagued by inconsistency from KP and Frank. KP plays like a MVP 10 games, then he plays like an inconsistent all-star since. Frank has moments where he looks like he's going to be a major impact player and then he has so many Casper nights. Willy is not even in the rotation, but is a strong asset for trade in a re-build or a rotation player to replace someone else you may trade.

So until KP and Frank really mature into consistent players, this team as is can't really do anything but where it is today. A team that wins around 35 games and is a tough group, but eventually just can't get it done. Not enough veteran star talent and the young talent is not there yet,

So what do we do that is most reasonable and rationale? Should we sell the vets off at trade deadline? I mean CLee, O'Quinn, Kanter, Beasley even, Jack even, all these guys man, they must have some damn good value right now. I could easily see three or four draft picks coming from those guys being traded to contenders or playoff teams. We would have to take back some contracts, but could stretch them to clear more capspace for the summer.

If not, then we have to think about moving Willy, and perhaps even Frank, to get something done to help KP. KP is not ready to carry a team as Phil Jackson said. He needs a veteran star who can come in and carry the load for him and get him some easier shots especially late in games. This guy has to be a guard because that's where we need the talent. Lee, Hardaway, all doing their job.

What's the right move here? Status quo will be the biggest waste and mistake. We must make a move in the coming weeks. Either trade the vets for draft picks and get so many trade assets that you can really be aggressive in the draft and in free agency or trade in the offseason. Or move Willy and Frank. We also have our own 2018 draft pick to use. Looking back at it, trading Willy, Frank and the 2018 #1 for Irving would have been an interesting move. I'm not one that was for that move, but the time of team we have around KP right now it makes sense. Kanter, KP, THj, Lee, Irving starters. O'Quinn, Beasley, McDermott, Jack backups. A playoff lock, top 5 in the East.

So should we sell the vets at trade deadline or look to make a big move using Willy, Frank and even the 2018 draft pick (if the player coming in is worth all that)? Should we be patient or try to go all in. Because where we are right now, we're neither bad enough to getting a star in the draft or good enough to be a free agent recruit team in the summer. We're going to be stuck being a 35 win team until KP is physically ready and Frank is much more mature. Even if we continue to draft well, where we are going to be in the lottery, you rarely get stars, you get good high quality starters like most of the time (Look at Frank at 8 vs drafting KP at 4)

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ItalianStallion
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1/13/2018  10:49 AM
I think it's a little too early to start benching vets like Lee and O'Quinn so we can tank, but if we can get a fair trade and younger players that makes perfect sense.
Jmpasq
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1/13/2018  10:58 AM
ItalianStallion wrote:I think it's a little too early to start benching vets like Lee and O'Quinn so we can tank, but if we can get a fair trade and younger players that makes perfect sense.

I disagree look how close the teams are bunched up in the lottery. I think we probably pick 10-11. There are 9 players in the top 3 tiers of the draft. Missing out on one of them because we played Jarrett jack to many minutes is incredibly stupid
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meloshouldgo
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1/13/2018  11:11 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
ItalianStallion wrote:I think it's a little too early to start benching vets like Lee and O'Quinn so we can tank, but if we can get a fair trade and younger players that makes perfect sense.

I disagree look how close the teams are bunched up in the lottery. I think we probably pick 10-11. There are 9 players in the top 3 tiers of the draft. Missing out on one of them because we played Jarrett jack to many minutes is incredibly stupid

I don't mind playing young players more minutes I want that too, but it's not like we are winning.

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nyknickzingis
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1/13/2018  11:30 AM
Not about benching
More about trading vets or trading future assets like Frank, Willy, 2018 pick that are giving this team almost nothing this year.

If we are going for broke this year we should trade Frank and Willy for a star guard that can get this team into the playoffs. If we are rebuilding should trade Kanter or OQuinn, Beasley, Lee etc for future second and first round picks. Stockpile on future assets.

BigDaddyG
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1/13/2018  11:34 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:Not about benching
More about trading vets or trading future assets like Frank, Willy, 2018 pick that are giving this team almost nothing this year.

If we are going for broke this year we should trade Frank and Willy for a star guard that can get this team into the playoffs. If we are rebuilding should trade Kanter or OQuinn, Beasley, Lee etc for future second and first round picks. Stockpile on future assets.


Going for broke on the last playoff spot is the type of move Isaiah would make. I want this team to contend for a title. If we don't have enough chips to push forward, then we gotta build up. That's my two cents.
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nyknickzingis
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1/13/2018  11:36 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Not about benching
More about trading vets or trading future assets like Frank, Willy, 2018 pick that are giving this team almost nothing this year.

If we are going for broke this year we should trade Frank and Willy for a star guard that can get this team into the playoffs. If we are rebuilding should trade Kanter or OQuinn, Beasley, Lee etc for future second and first round picks. Stockpile on future assets.


Going for broke on the last playoff spot is the type of move Isaiah would make. I want this team to contend for a title. If we don't have enough chips to push forward, then we gotta build up. That's my two cents.

I agree
But to get a contender we need top 5 talent in the draft
Unless we trade vets we won't get into that position
ItalianStallion
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1/13/2018  11:58 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/13/2018  12:01 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
ItalianStallion wrote:I think it's a little too early to start benching vets like Lee and O'Quinn so we can tank, but if we can get a fair trade and younger players that makes perfect sense.

I disagree look how close the teams are bunched up in the lottery. I think we probably pick 10-11. There are 9 players in the top 3 tiers of the draft. Missing out on one of them because we played Jarrett jack to many minutes is incredibly stupid

This is the problem.

1. There's no guarantee we actually get a better pick even if we get more ping pong balls.
2. There's no guarantee we select the better player even if we have a higher pick. There are busts all over the top 10 every year.
3. When you bench veterans early in the season to tank, they get really pissed off because their career and earnings are on the line - especially if it's a contract year or they can opt out like Kanter and O'Quinn. That causes problems in the locker room and gives the team a bad reputation with other players and agents. Even if you bench Lee for example, Lee will get pissed off, his agent will get pissed, and it will disrupt things.

So what you do is try to get some minutes for young players that don't really deserve them yet and wait to tank until later in the season when the vets will be OK with it. In the meantime, if you can find a good trade for guys like Lee, O'Quinn, Kanter, Thomas etc.. to get younger you do that.

BigDaddyG
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1/13/2018  12:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/13/2018  12:30 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Not about benching
More about trading vets or trading future assets like Frank, Willy, 2018 pick that are giving this team almost nothing this year.

If we are going for broke this year we should trade Frank and Willy for a star guard that can get this team into the playoffs. If we are rebuilding should trade Kanter or OQuinn, Beasley, Lee etc for future second and first round picks. Stockpile on future assets.


Going for broke on the last playoff spot is the type of move Isaiah would make. I want this team to contend for a title. If we don't have enough chips to push forward, then we gotta build up. That's my two cents.

I agree
But to get a contender we need top 5 talent in the draft
Unless we trade vets we won't get into that position

No, but at least we'll be getting cheap young talent. We have holes up and down the roster and no cap space heading into free agency. Who knows? Maybe we hit a pick out of the park in the late lottery by taking a chance on someone like Justin Jackson? I wouldn't mind trading down.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
martin
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1/13/2018  12:08 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Not about benching
More about trading vets or trading future assets like Frank, Willy, 2018 pick that are giving this team almost nothing this year.

If we are going for broke this year we should trade Frank and Willy for a star guard that can get this team into the playoffs. If we are rebuilding should trade Kanter or OQuinn, Beasley, Lee etc for future second and first round picks. Stockpile on future assets.


Going for broke on the last playoff spot is the type of move Isaiah would make. I want this team to contend for a title. If we don't have enough chips to push forward, then we gotta build up. That's my two cents.

I agree
But to get a contender we need top 5 talent in the draft
Unless we trade vets we won't get into that position

No you don't, you need to build smartly, whether through trade or FA or drafting. This is not a black and white operation.

You are not either going all in or trading everything. There are some grey areas where you are rebuilding without tanking.

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TheGame
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1/13/2018  12:28 PM
Tank!!! We need to try to get a draft pick for either KOQ or Willy. We need to see if we can get a draft pick for Lee. Play the young guys and lose. The bottom line is it is a long shot that this team makes the playoffs at this point and we only hurt ourselves lonterm if we lose guys like KOQ, McDermott, and Kanter for nothing. If we get two first round picks we have a chance to move us to grab one of the top small forwards.
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CrushAlot
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1/13/2018  12:41 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:Not about benching
More about trading vets or trading future assets like Frank, Willy, 2018 pick that are giving this team almost nothing this year.

If we are going for broke this year we should trade Frank and Willy for a star guard that can get this team into the playoffs. If we are rebuilding should trade Kanter or OQuinn, Beasley, Lee etc for future second and first round picks. Stockpile on future assets.

Management was pretty clear that they were targeting players 25 and under to grow with KP. The guys they brought in, Kanter, McDermott, Tim, Burke, all fit that description. I don't think that plan changes course mid season. Things are always fluid if the right player is there but the management team was clear that it was taking a building approach. If a young, cornerstone player becomes available then you consider moving guys including Frank and Willy but not because you are chasing the 8th seed. Mills/Perry have said they are trying to build something sustainable. Chasing the 8th seed isn't a part of that. If it happens within the confines of the model they are using to build the roster it would be great.
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Nalod
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1/13/2018  12:44 PM
The vets are here to supplement the development of the Yoot. THjr is also developing. He is average and still a bit raw in his role.
Thats OK.
Nothing wrong with Beas finishing games than just give up. Not much is gained by having KP chuck up bad shots if little is working around him. Same for THjr.
Frank is getting opportunities and not executing. That tanking? Ok. But he gets pulled because he can't hit a shot now for Jack.
He hits his shots, he can finish.
We are not tanking, but we are not artificially looking to make playoffs with vets either. Its not that black or white. Its not tank or not. Its sort of OK to let nature take its course and still develop players.
Zebo13
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1/13/2018  1:28 PM
I would just add that players can learn and grow without getting all of a lot of playing time. They’re getting practice and coaching and just experience in the league. Dotson is getting G league time as well. Anybody know how he’s doing out in WC?
fitzfarm
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1/13/2018  1:43 PM
I wonder if we should consider moving jack for a draft pick he’d be a great back up on a playoff team , we are not a bad team but imagine if we could get doncic, and trade some vets for first round picks
StarksEwing1
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1/13/2018  1:58 PM
I think KOQ should be traded because he is gonna get a hefty pay raise so we might as well get value for him. Lee i really like and i want to keep UNLESS someone gives us a first rounder. As for that we should just continue to see how the team does the rest of the way.
Knixkik
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1/13/2018  2:04 PM
No buying or selling, other than KOQ who is redundant. Stay the course and let the chips fall as they may. We will address needs in the offseason.
nixluva
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1/13/2018  2:24 PM
The Knicks are not panicking. Which is the right move. Just make SMART decisions and stay the course until you are sure that any decision will actually improve your situation for the LONG TERM. There are some legit roster weaknesses that need to be addressed at PG and SF. Those to me are the next key upgrades for this team. Every move needs to be in furtherance of addressing those positions. Of course continued development of our youth is a high priority. KP and Nitty in particular.
nyknickzingis
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1/14/2018  6:55 PM
We should be doing everything in our power to get a first round pick for Kanter.
CLee should also be moved for future assets.
BRIGGS
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1/14/2018  7:19 PM
Tank the ship

Tank the ship


Tan the ship


why

look at the top 6 picks

RIP Crushalot😞
Re-build, sell the vets or go for the playoffs and now?

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