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The 2018 Tank/Draft Thread
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smackeddog
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1/6/2018  4:41 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/6/2018  4:42 AM
This is the last year with the current draft odds- after this year it will be a lot more difficult to land a top pick due to them re-weighting the lottery, which is the main reason I wasn't too exited when we were winning (I like winning, but we need another major piece, and I'm not sure how we'd add one other than via the lottery). Right now the standings are:

http://proxy.espn.com/nba/standings?group=1

Trade deadline: Feb 8th

Right now we're in the danger zone- out of the playoffs but middle of the pack (18-21). I don't think we have much of a shot at catching up with Atlanta (10-28), Grizz(12-27), Magic (12-27), Kings (12-25) because those teams are all really bad and any moves they make will likely be to tank further, but our records are closer than I realized. We need some big time losing to get out of the danger zone and into he top pick contention (though we're probably doomed to pick in our seemingly forever destined 7 to 8 range).

So what players would you trade to tank? Candidates are:

KOQ
Kanter
Lee
Lance

Looking at the mock drafts the top 5 picks are looking like:

DeAndre Ayton (C)
Trae Young (PG)
Marvin Bagely (PF)
Michael Porter (SF/PF)
Luka Doncic (PG/SG)

Ideally we need a SF, but Bagely's injury makes me wary. Doncic makes sense in terms of fit (can play both back court positions so can play with Tim Jr or Frank or even both at the same time). I'm not sure Bagely would make sense with KP. Would Ayton complement him? Alternatively we could go for Trae Young, and keep Frank as a backup/swing man. Anyone else anyone likes?

So looking at the bigger picture, as much as it pains me, the best thing is to keep losing. I'd like us to trade KOQ (again as much as I like him, he's a free agent and he's taking mins from the cheaper, younger Willy). I'd keep Lance. I'd then have to think long and hard as to which one to trade: Kanter or Lee. It's really tough deciding at the trade deadline because we have no way of knowing our draft position. If we knew we were drafting Doncic or Young then I'd get rid of Lee. If we were going to end up with a front court player we'd have to get rid of Kanter.

Maybe just keep it simple- don't trade both of them, just whichever one can get the higher return come the trade deadline.

AUTOADVERT
Paris907
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1/6/2018  4:50 AM
While Young is a hot commodity, let’s see how he fares vs West Virginia. His turnovers apparently an issue. Bamba apparently a top 5. Unlike others, I want a 5. Id move on from Kanter and KOQ and play the rookie if he’s got defense and athleticism. Begley too a super talent. Porter has injury issue but his upside is akin to Tatum so he’s a 3 which the Knicks need.
Jmpasq
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1/6/2018  6:04 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/6/2018  6:05 AM
Paris907 wrote:While Young is a hot commodity, let’s see how he fares vs West Virginia. His turnovers apparently an issue. Bamba apparently a top 5. Unlike others, I want a 5. Id move on from Kanter and KOQ and play the rookie if he’s got defense and athleticism. Begley too a super talent. Porter has injury issue but his upside is akin to Tatum so he’s a 3 which the Knicks need.

we might have a shot at Porter because of the injury if we get around 6, I just dont think we are bad enough to get higher than 10

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Paris907
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1/6/2018  9:09 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
Paris907 wrote:While Young is a hot commodity, let’s see how he fares vs West Virginia. His turnovers apparently an issue. Bamba apparently a top 5. Unlike others, I want a 5. Id move on from Kanter and KOQ and play the rookie if he’s got defense and athleticism. Begley too a super talent. Porter has injury issue but his upside is akin to Tatum so he’s a 3 which the Knicks need.

we might have a shot at Porter because of the injury if we get around 6, I just dont think we are bad enough to get higher than 10

I think that’s right. We’re 3 under now and the current road show ends we will be at least 8 under.
I see us picking 9-10.

Jmpasq
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1/6/2018  9:16 AM
Paris907 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Paris907 wrote:While Young is a hot commodity, let’s see how he fares vs West Virginia. His turnovers apparently an issue. Bamba apparently a top 5. Unlike others, I want a 5. Id move on from Kanter and KOQ and play the rookie if he’s got defense and athleticism. Begley too a super talent. Porter has injury issue but his upside is akin to Tatum so he’s a 3 which the Knicks need.

we might have a shot at Porter because of the injury if we get around 6, I just dont think we are bad enough to get higher than 10

I think that’s right. We’re 3 under now and the current road show ends we will be at least 8 under.
I see us picking 9-10.

10 might be okay there are some good SF's in this draft in that range. 10 may get us Bridges or Knox. I don't know if they are lifting this franchise out of its misery though. A guy like Porter would and thats why I believed losing a lot of games was best for this franchise. This season should of been an all out tank. The 2018 offseason was the year we could of started adding some other pieces.

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GustavBahler
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1/6/2018  9:18 AM
Fuck Tanking
Jmpasq
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1/6/2018  9:21 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/6/2018  9:22 AM
GustavBahler wrote:Fuck Tanking

You like KP right? We got him at 4. Guys that hate tanking sure like to forget that
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GustavBahler
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1/6/2018  9:30 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Fuck Tanking

You like KP right? We got him at 4

I dont like hearing this **** not even at the All-Star break. Every ****ing season its the same thing, always the same %#*% wanting to tank right after the start of the season, spamming game threads, getting pissed off when we win. That comes next.

We get near the end of the season, things are out of reach, thats one thing. Thats not whats been happening on this board. Every ****ing season. The answer to losing with these people is always more losing. Fuck that.

We have picked below where we were projected to pick in the draft for 2 years in a row, but some want to go back Jack, do it again....

NardDogNation
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1/6/2018  10:02 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/6/2018  10:07 AM
I think tanking is a bad precedent. As I've been saying, we should be looking to develop this team organically. If they win games in the process: great! But we should not be looking to inflate our win totals by acquiring pricey veterans and playing them ahead of our youth. The veterans, after all, are known commodities and the only reason we were able to acquire them in the first place. The youth, on the other hand, are the only thing that can generate value since they can outplay their contracts.

Because of that, we should be looking to acquire as many players as possible that fit this profile as we structure an environment that promotes their growth. And the only way to do that is by leveraging cap space and cap flexibility to acquire as many draft picks as possible until we find the right mix of youth to build a winner (e.g. like Presti with the Thunder or Ainge with the Celtics).

We also shouldn't be running these players into the ground like we're doing with KP, in order to try to gin up win totals.

As for the draft, I'd do my best to target Mikal Bridges but I think he'd be out of our range.

As for trades, I'd wait to see what the Pelicans do with DeMarcus Cousins. If he becomes available, Enes Kanter (and Courtney Lee) would be a solid return for a team still looking to win-now. I recommended this in another thread, which would give us the Nets pick via CLE (i.e. a better pick) and an improved pick (i.e. a NOP pick swap) for merely facilitating Cousins' move to Cleveland.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y8motyzy

Should something like that work out, I'd target Michael Porter (who is likely to drop) with the Nets pick and Mikal Bridges with the other. That should round out our frontcourt nicely for the future or at the very least position us well for a bigger trade. I know this sounds scatterbrained but in spite of all this talk about acquiring youth, my primary objective would be to get enough assets to trade for a star; secondary objective would be to actually develop the talent. I still think Giannis will become available in about 3 years and that we should start prepping for the possibility. Best case scenario is we get him and still retain some of the youth around he and KP to field a rotation; worst case scenario is we have a bunch of youth that hopefully forms a cohesive unit. Either alternative is better than what we're doing.

Knixkik
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1/6/2018  10:26 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Fuck Tanking

You like KP right? We got him at 4. Guys that hate tanking sure like to forget that

And if we ended up with pick 2 or 3 we would have taken Okafor. And Booker and Turner were both picked late in the lottery. It's a crapshoot. People are obsessed with tanking. This wasn't even a thing 10 years ago. The term didn't even exist.

knicks1248
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1/6/2018  10:34 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/6/2018  10:34 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Fuck Tanking

You like KP right? We got him at 4. Guys that hate tanking sure like to forget that

how many times have you seen a unicorn, phili and the lakers got russel, and okafor at 2, 3, respectfully...winning is a culture

ES
BRIGGS
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1/7/2018  12:47 AM
Picks as of January 6
#14 nick ward. F/ c michigan state
Pick 33 jalen brunson pg villanova
Pick 39 Markus Howard pg MRquette
awe1028
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1/7/2018  1:38 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Fuck Tanking

You like KP right? We got him at 4. Guys that hate tanking sure like to forget that

how many times have you seen a unicorn, phili and the lakers got russel, and okafor at 2, 3, respectfully...winning is a culture

Winning is a culture huh? I think what you mean to say is winning is a talent. It is very strange how teams always seem to develop a "winning culture" once they begin to accumulate talent.

Golden State was just like the Knicks the laughing stock of the NBA. It gets Steph and the rest and all of a sudden they have a "winning culture".

Cleveland was also once the laughing stock of the the NBA. It gets Lebron James and now they are perennially the best team in the Eastern Conference and the second best team in the NBA.

Boston during the Larry Bird era had a "winning culture" because they had a lot of talent at that time. Once Bird and the rest of the talent began to retire the Celtics stopped having a winning culture. Then they drafted Paul Pierce brought in Garnett and Ray Allen and they started to have a winning culture again. Now they have started accumulating DRAFT PICKS and of course commensurate talent now they have started to have a winning culture again hmmm

Ditto for the Lakers. During the Magic/Kareem and Kobe/Shag eras the Lakers had A LOT of "winning culture". Funny how that winning culture did not help them win once those talented players started to retire. I could go on and on but you get the point.

Even our current Knicks show that talent is the root of developing a winning culture. The Knicks have KP and a stable of young talent and the Knicks have had more "winning culture" this season than they have had in years. Obviously the Knicks' winning culture is not as strong as Golden State or Cleveland and that is because they don't have as much talent as those teams.

This is why the OP has it right that the Knicks need to LOSE so they can get a top pick in the draft and continue to accumulate talent and he should not feel bad for wanting this. Once they get the talent in place you will see how quickly they develop a "winning culture".

All this whining about the Knicks losing on this road trip. Please. If you really want the Knicks to develop a "winning culture" you should REJOICE that they are losing and hope they CONTINUE to lose so they can get as high a draft pick as possible so they can continue to bring in the talent necessary to develop a real winning culture.

reub
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1/7/2018  10:03 AM
NardDogNation wrote:I think tanking is a bad precedent. As I've been saying, we should be looking to develop this team organically. If they win games in the process: great! But we should not be looking to inflate our win totals by acquiring pricey veterans and playing them ahead of our youth. The veterans, after all, are known commodities and the only reason we were able to acquire them in the first place. The youth, on the other hand, are the only thing that can generate value since they can outplay their contracts.

Because of that, we should be looking to acquire as many players as possible that fit this profile as we structure an environment that promotes their growth. And the only way to do that is by leveraging cap space and cap flexibility to acquire as many draft picks as possible until we find the right mix of youth to build a winner (e.g. like Presti with the Thunder or Ainge with the Celtics).

We also shouldn't be running these players into the ground like we're doing with KP, in order to try to gin up win totals.

As for the draft, I'd do my best to target Mikal Bridges but I think he'd be out of our range.

As for trades, I'd wait to see what the Pelicans do with DeMarcus Cousins. If he becomes available, Enes Kanter (and Courtney Lee) would be a solid return for a team still looking to win-now. I recommended this in another thread, which would give us the Nets pick via CLE (i.e. a better pick) and an improved pick (i.e. a NOP pick swap) for merely facilitating Cousins' move to Cleveland.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y8motyzy

Should something like that work out, I'd target Michael Porter (who is likely to drop) with the Nets pick and Mikal Bridges with the other. That should round out our frontcourt nicely for the future or at the very least position us well for a bigger trade. I know this sounds scatterbrained but in spite of all this talk about acquiring youth, my primary objective would be to get enough assets to trade for a star; secondary objective would be to actually develop the talent. I still think Giannis will become available in about 3 years and that we should start prepping for the possibility. Best case scenario is we get him and still retain some of the youth around he and KP to field a rotation; worst case scenario is we have a bunch of youth that hopefully forms a cohesive unit. Either alternative is better than what we're doing.

KP said that he wants to be an All Star this year. I think that All Stars should be able to play 32.5 minures/game. You can't have it both ways.

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1/7/2018  10:11 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Picks as of January 6
#14 nick ward. F/ c michigan state
Pick 33 jalen brunson pg villanova
Pick 39 Markus Howard pg MRquette

If i'm picking today i'm going
14 Duval
33 Brunson
39 Trier

I'm loading up on guards with the hope that a couple will pan out and we can build up the young core. We need talented playmakers to fill the roster behind Hardaway and Ntilikina.

BRIGGS
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1/7/2018  10:43 AM
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Picks as of January 6
#14 nick ward. F/ c michigan state
Pick 33 jalen brunson pg villanova
Pick 39 Markus Howard pg MRquette

If i'm picking today i'm going
14 Duval
33 Brunson
39 Trier

I'm loading up on guards with the hope that a couple will pan out and we can build up the young core. We need talented playmakers to fill the roster behind Hardaway and Ntilikina.

I'm in partial agreement with you.
The draft to me is just about enhancement-- we need free agency to really improve.
I like ward better than any guards around 15. He really does remind me of zach Randolph but with much more of a defensive mindset. The guy hardly misses a shot. Get a post player like that all the guards suddenly have more space.

I'm a big jalen brunson fan. He's a winner he's smart he can step right into the back up pg core position.
I've become fond of Markus Howard -- I've had the luck of watching him score 52 and 37 the last two games-- but beyond that I've noticed his potential as a pg in the nba. He's only 5-1 180 but he's built almost like a version of patty mills and is likely the best 3 point shooter in the draft.

Our team needs atleast 1 designated 3 point shooter off the bench I'd like us to carry 3 pg and 1 combo guard-- that's where teams need depth

NardDogNation
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1/7/2018  10:44 AM
reub wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I think tanking is a bad precedent. As I've been saying, we should be looking to develop this team organically. If they win games in the process: great! But we should not be looking to inflate our win totals by acquiring pricey veterans and playing them ahead of our youth. The veterans, after all, are known commodities and the only reason we were able to acquire them in the first place. The youth, on the other hand, are the only thing that can generate value since they can outplay their contracts.

Because of that, we should be looking to acquire as many players as possible that fit this profile as we structure an environment that promotes their growth. And the only way to do that is by leveraging cap space and cap flexibility to acquire as many draft picks as possible until we find the right mix of youth to build a winner (e.g. like Presti with the Thunder or Ainge with the Celtics).

We also shouldn't be running these players into the ground like we're doing with KP, in order to try to gin up win totals.

As for the draft, I'd do my best to target Mikal Bridges but I think he'd be out of our range.

As for trades, I'd wait to see what the Pelicans do with DeMarcus Cousins. If he becomes available, Enes Kanter (and Courtney Lee) would be a solid return for a team still looking to win-now. I recommended this in another thread, which would give us the Nets pick via CLE (i.e. a better pick) and an improved pick (i.e. a NOP pick swap) for merely facilitating Cousins' move to Cleveland.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y8motyzy

Should something like that work out, I'd target Michael Porter (who is likely to drop) with the Nets pick and Mikal Bridges with the other. That should round out our frontcourt nicely for the future or at the very least position us well for a bigger trade. I know this sounds scatterbrained but in spite of all this talk about acquiring youth, my primary objective would be to get enough assets to trade for a star; secondary objective would be to actually develop the talent. I still think Giannis will become available in about 3 years and that we should start prepping for the possibility. Best case scenario is we get him and still retain some of the youth around he and KP to field a rotation; worst case scenario is we have a bunch of youth that hopefully forms a cohesive unit. Either alternative is better than what we're doing.

KP said that he wants to be an All Star this year. I think that All Stars should be able to play 32.5 minures/game. You can't have it both ways.

That doesn't mean we should suspend our common sense. The NBA doesn't have a good track record with the health of guys as tall as Porzingis. We need to be very careful not to break him before he even reaches him prime. He should be getting a similar treatment to Embiid especially in light of the fact he played all summer with Team Latvia.

Jmpasq
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1/7/2018  12:25 PM
NardDogNation wrote: But we should not be looking to inflate our win totals by acquiring pricey veterans and playing them ahead of our youth. The veterans, after all, are known commodities and the only reason we were able to acquire them in the first place. The youth, on the other hand, are the only thing that can generate value since they can outplay their contracts.

That is tanking at least my definition of it. If everything your doing isn't trying to win the most games possible its tanking.

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arkrud
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1/7/2018  12:29 PM
awe1028 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Fuck Tanking

You like KP right? We got him at 4. Guys that hate tanking sure like to forget that

how many times have you seen a unicorn, phili and the lakers got russel, and okafor at 2, 3, respectfully...winning is a culture

Winning is a culture huh? I think what you mean to say is winning is a talent. It is very strange how teams always seem to develop a "winning culture" once they begin to accumulate talent.

Golden State was just like the Knicks the laughing stock of the NBA. It gets Steph and the rest and all of a sudden they have a "winning culture".

Cleveland was also once the laughing stock of the the NBA. It gets Lebron James and now they are perennially the best team in the Eastern Conference and the second best team in the NBA.

Boston during the Larry Bird era had a "winning culture" because they had a lot of talent at that time. Once Bird and the rest of the talent began to retire the Celtics stopped having a winning culture. Then they drafted Paul Pierce brought in Garnett and Ray Allen and they started to have a winning culture again. Now they have started accumulating DRAFT PICKS and of course commensurate talent now they have started to have a winning culture again hmmm

Ditto for the Lakers. During the Magic/Kareem and Kobe/Shag eras the Lakers had A LOT of "winning culture". Funny how that winning culture did not help them win once those talented players started to retire. I could go on and on but you get the point.

Even our current Knicks show that talent is the root of developing a winning culture. The Knicks have KP and a stable of young talent and the Knicks have had more "winning culture" this season than they have had in years. Obviously the Knicks' winning culture is not as strong as Golden State or Cleveland and that is because they don't have as much talent as those teams.

This is why the OP has it right that the Knicks need to LOSE so they can get a top pick in the draft and continue to accumulate talent and he should not feel bad for wanting this. Once they get the talent in place you will see how quickly they develop a "winning culture".

All this whining about the Knicks losing on this road trip. Please. If you really want the Knicks to develop a "winning culture" you should REJOICE that they are losing and hope they CONTINUE to lose so they can get as high a draft pick as possible so they can continue to bring in the talent necessary to develop a real winning culture.

Getting talent without culture is like drag addict getting lottery win.
All will go into drugs with eventual overdose and death.
This what NY Knicks were for 20 years.
Granted to win in NBA team needs a lot of talent.
But getting it without a clue does not help.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
NardDogNation
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1/7/2018  1:00 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
NardDogNation wrote: But we should not be looking to inflate our win totals by acquiring pricey veterans and playing them ahead of our youth. The veterans, after all, are known commodities and the only reason we were able to acquire them in the first place. The youth, on the other hand, are the only thing that can generate value since they can outplay their contracts.

That is tanking at least my definition of it. If everything your doing isn't trying to win the most games possible its tanking.

I haven't encountered many things in life that are Black-and-White like that. I have no reason to believe that this issue would be one of the exceptions.

The 2018 Tank/Draft Thread

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