fishmike wrote:I expect another Langston Galloway quality call up.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=57248&page=2

" - Maybe he improves?

*****

He's just not very good, that being said, given the talent situation on the roster, why not sign him and see what happens.

He's a defensive liability. Which is gonna hurt him getting on the floor given he's not an elite three point shooter. A player can develop a solid three point shot over time and hard work and attrition. If he wants to stay in the NBA, he needs to be able to hit the three ball at an elite rate and do it from well behind the arc to space the floor.

Players are prone to hesitate to change their "game" esp as it's all they know and it' what got them to the NBA in the first place. But Burke has to commit to actually understanding the flow of the offense and accepting a more limited role to actually facilitate for his team mates.

A lot of players don't have the self humility and awareness to be subvert what they perceive as their strengths to just focusing on a specific role far less than what they hoped for their career.

He just needs to get dramatically stronger as well. He'll never have length, but guy needs to start juicing at an Olympian type level.

*****

It's entirely possible. Though I suspect it's not likely.

Trey Burke does not have an elite tool set. Nor does he have the core physical building blocks in place to hint at possible upside.

JaVale McGee really doesn't get much credit for being a true physical specimen. Given his height, length, wingspan, athleticism, hops, strength and ability to move, it should not be possible for a human being that large to move quite like that. I recognize this is true of a lot of pro athletes, but McGee was basically a test tube case ( both his parents were professional athletes) Just from a raw physical standpoint, McGee could have been one of the best players in NBA history. But he's stupid. He's really stupid actually. His decision making makes you wonder what the hell is going on in his head. However his raw tool set allows him to get a role and stay in the league.

Burke's physical limitations means he needs to be a high IQ/elite decision maker who understands how to read the floor and run the offense. He can't. He tries, but he can't.

If you have length, at least you can clog up the passing lanes on the perimeter. If you have size, at least you clog the middle. But if you lack true athleticism at this level, you just need to bring more intangibles to the table.

He's a Quad A type guy. Think of guys like Dilson Herrera or Kevin Plawecki for the Mets. Too good for Triple A, but not quite good enough to get over the hump in the bigs. Burke can create his own shot, against lesser competition. He just can't do it effectively enough at the top level.

IF he had a better tool set, he wouldn't be available. Some other team would give him a chance and done so before now.

What's his ceiling if everything goes right and he works very hard? A no defense bench gunner who dramatically improved his 3 point shot and changed his game and body enough to at least be a semi regular threat to penetrate to the rim. But we are talking massive work here and honestly massive PEDS/Juicing needed. "

TripleThreat wrote:

fishmike wrote:I expect another Langston Galloway quality call up.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=57248&page=2

" - Maybe he improves?

*****

He's just not very good, that being said, given the talent situation on the roster, why not sign him and see what happens.

He's a defensive liability. Which is gonna hurt him getting on the floor given he's not an elite three point shooter. A player can develop a solid three point shot over time and hard work and attrition. If he wants to stay in the NBA, he needs to be able to hit the three ball at an elite rate and do it from well behind the arc to space the floor.

Players are prone to hesitate to change their "game" esp as it's all they know and it' what got them to the NBA in the first place. But Burke has to commit to actually understanding the flow of the offense and accepting a more limited role to actually facilitate for his team mates.

A lot of players don't have the self humility and awareness to be subvert what they perceive as their strengths to just focusing on a specific role far less than what they hoped for their career.

He just needs to get dramatically stronger as well. He'll never have length, but guy needs to start juicing at an Olympian type level.

*****

It's entirely possible. Though I suspect it's not likely.

Trey Burke does not have an elite tool set. Nor does he have the core physical building blocks in place to hint at possible upside.

JaVale McGee really doesn't get much credit for being a true physical specimen. Given his height, length, wingspan, athleticism, hops, strength and ability to move, it should not be possible for a human being that large to move quite like that. I recognize this is true of a lot of pro athletes, but McGee was basically a test tube case ( both his parents were professional athletes) Just from a raw physical standpoint, McGee could have been one of the best players in NBA history. But he's stupid. He's really stupid actually. His decision making makes you wonder what the hell is going on in his head. However his raw tool set allows him to get a role and stay in the league.

Burke's physical limitations means he needs to be a high IQ/elite decision maker who understands how to read the floor and run the offense. He can't. He tries, but he can't.

If you have length, at least you can clog up the passing lanes on the perimeter. If you have size, at least you clog the middle. But if you lack true athleticism at this level, you just need to bring more intangibles to the table.

He's a Quad A type guy. Think of guys like Dilson Herrera or Kevin Plawecki for the Mets. Too good for Triple A, but not quite good enough to get over the hump in the bigs. Burke can create his own shot, against lesser competition. He just can't do it effectively enough at the top level.

IF he had a better tool set, he wouldn't be available. Some other team would give him a chance and done so before now.

What's his ceiling if everything goes right and he works very hard? A no defense bench gunner who dramatically improved his 3 point shot and changed his game and body enough to at least be a semi regular threat to penetrate to the rim. But we are talking massive work here and honestly massive PEDS/Juicing needed. "

Thanks, this is the post I was hunting down.

Hopefully Trey is taking his time in the G-League seriously, probably knows it's one of his last shots at the NBA.

reub wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/chrispriczak/status/948658242611228672

He would change our whole pathetic looking offense and KP would get a lot of easy shots.

Does he pass much, I notice those stats aren't highlighted

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

fishmike wrote:I expect another Langston Galloway quality call up.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=57248&page=2

" - Maybe he improves?

*****

He's just not very good, that being said, given the talent situation on the roster, why not sign him and see what happens.

He's a defensive liability. Which is gonna hurt him getting on the floor given he's not an elite three point shooter. A player can develop a solid three point shot over time and hard work and attrition. If he wants to stay in the NBA, he needs to be able to hit the three ball at an elite rate and do it from well behind the arc to space the floor.

Players are prone to hesitate to change their "game" esp as it's all they know and it' what got them to the NBA in the first place. But Burke has to commit to actually understanding the flow of the offense and accepting a more limited role to actually facilitate for his team mates.

A lot of players don't have the self humility and awareness to be subvert what they perceive as their strengths to just focusing on a specific role far less than what they hoped for their career.

He just needs to get dramatically stronger as well. He'll never have length, but guy needs to start juicing at an Olympian type level.

*****

It's entirely possible. Though I suspect it's not likely.

Trey Burke does not have an elite tool set. Nor does he have the core physical building blocks in place to hint at possible upside.

JaVale McGee really doesn't get much credit for being a true physical specimen. Given his height, length, wingspan, athleticism, hops, strength and ability to move, it should not be possible for a human being that large to move quite like that. I recognize this is true of a lot of pro athletes, but McGee was basically a test tube case ( both his parents were professional athletes) Just from a raw physical standpoint, McGee could have been one of the best players in NBA history. But he's stupid. He's really stupid actually. His decision making makes you wonder what the hell is going on in his head. However his raw tool set allows him to get a role and stay in the league.

Burke's physical limitations means he needs to be a high IQ/elite decision maker who understands how to read the floor and run the offense. He can't. He tries, but he can't.

If you have length, at least you can clog up the passing lanes on the perimeter. If you have size, at least you clog the middle. But if you lack true athleticism at this level, you just need to bring more intangibles to the table.

He's a Quad A type guy. Think of guys like Dilson Herrera or Kevin Plawecki for the Mets. Too good for Triple A, but not quite good enough to get over the hump in the bigs. Burke can create his own shot, against lesser competition. He just can't do it effectively enough at the top level.

IF he had a better tool set, he wouldn't be available. Some other team would give him a chance and done so before now.

What's his ceiling if everything goes right and he works very hard? A no defense bench gunner who dramatically improved his 3 point shot and changed his game and body enough to at least be a semi regular threat to penetrate to the rim. But we are talking massive work here and honestly massive PEDS/Juicing needed. "

Thanks, this is the post I was hunting down.

Hopefully Trey is taking his time in the G-League seriously, probably knows it's one of his last shots at the NBA.

Triple focused only on defense and Burke's limited PG IQ. He's kind of missed the obvious here which is scoring. Burke's line in Westchester is 50/42/82. We are looking for scoring punch here. If that doesnt qualify I dont know what does. How to get into the NBA for him? You know his PG play is going to be average. You know if defense is going to be average. You accept those things because he's a high EFF% scorer. Its that simple.

Doesnt make sense to make him something he isnt. The question is is what he's good at good enough? Well if he's a scorer off the bench and his slash line is similar to what he's doing in the G league then he's in the rotation. No?

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

fishmike wrote:I expect another Langston Galloway quality call up.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=57248&page=2

" - Maybe he improves?

*****

He's just not very good, that being said, given the talent situation on the roster, why not sign him and see what happens.

He's a defensive liability. Which is gonna hurt him getting on the floor given he's not an elite three point shooter. A player can develop a solid three point shot over time and hard work and attrition. If he wants to stay in the NBA, he needs to be able to hit the three ball at an elite rate and do it from well behind the arc to space the floor.

Players are prone to hesitate to change their "game" esp as it's all they know and it' what got them to the NBA in the first place. But Burke has to commit to actually understanding the flow of the offense and accepting a more limited role to actually facilitate for his team mates.

A lot of players don't have the self humility and awareness to be subvert what they perceive as their strengths to just focusing on a specific role far less than what they hoped for their career.

He just needs to get dramatically stronger as well. He'll never have length, but guy needs to start juicing at an Olympian type level.

*****

It's entirely possible. Though I suspect it's not likely.

Trey Burke does not have an elite tool set. Nor does he have the core physical building blocks in place to hint at possible upside.

JaVale McGee really doesn't get much credit for being a true physical specimen. Given his height, length, wingspan, athleticism, hops, strength and ability to move, it should not be possible for a human being that large to move quite like that. I recognize this is true of a lot of pro athletes, but McGee was basically a test tube case ( both his parents were professional athletes) Just from a raw physical standpoint, McGee could have been one of the best players in NBA history. But he's stupid. He's really stupid actually. His decision making makes you wonder what the hell is going on in his head. However his raw tool set allows him to get a role and stay in the league.

Burke's physical limitations means he needs to be a high IQ/elite decision maker who understands how to read the floor and run the offense. He can't. He tries, but he can't.

If you have length, at least you can clog up the passing lanes on the perimeter. If you have size, at least you clog the middle. But if you lack true athleticism at this level, you just need to bring more intangibles to the table.

He's a Quad A type guy. Think of guys like Dilson Herrera or Kevin Plawecki for the Mets. Too good for Triple A, but not quite good enough to get over the hump in the bigs. Burke can create his own shot, against lesser competition. He just can't do it effectively enough at the top level.

IF he had a better tool set, he wouldn't be available. Some other team would give him a chance and done so before now.

What's his ceiling if everything goes right and he works very hard? A no defense bench gunner who dramatically improved his 3 point shot and changed his game and body enough to at least be a semi regular threat to penetrate to the rim. But we are talking massive work here and honestly massive PEDS/Juicing needed. "

Thanks, this is the post I was hunting down.

Hopefully Trey is taking his time in the G-League seriously, probably knows it's one of his last shots at the NBA.

Triple focused only on defense and Burke's limited PG IQ. He's kind of missed the obvious here which is scoring. Burke's line in Westchester is 50/42/82. We are looking for scoring punch here. If that doesnt qualify I dont know what does. How to get into the NBA for him? You know his PG play is going to be average. You know if defense is going to be average. You accept those things because he's a high EFF% scorer. Its that simple.

Doesnt make sense to make him something he isnt. The question is is what he's good at good enough? Well if he's a scorer off the bench and his slash line is similar to what he's doing in the G league then he's in the rotation. No?

Burke's projected G-League to NBA stats aren't that much different than they were when he was an NBA player. Take that with a grain of salt, but there's a huge leap in talent from the G-League to the NBA and it's unlikely Burke keeps that slash line. If he does, it'll be at a way less usage. That, in itself, won't guarantee minutes. I'm sure Ramon Session would tear up the G-League if he were demoted. Burke will need to step the D and playmaking if he wants minutes.

how many minutes are we talking about? I am looking at backup PG/bench scorer. That 12-15 most night, with 18-25 on nights he's got it going and we go small and fast.

I expect to see Frank starting some time after the AS break. Jack is prob better in the 2nd unit anyway.

EnySpree wrote:We really just need Burke to make shots and be professional on both sides of the ball. Nothing more.... we're not calling him up with the mindset he's going to be putting up super numbers like Chris Paul. We do need shot makers. There are shots available that fits his skill set

I fail to understand what the massive disconnect here is regarding Trey Burke.

He's slow. He's small. He can't create his own shot at the NBA level. He doesn't read the floor well. He's not that great of a passer. He doesn't finish at the rim at the NBA level. He's a zero on defense. He's had previous opportunity to get starting minutes. He's been relatively healthy. He's outside his practical three year window where most young players tend to do most of their development.

The Knicks don't exactly have gourmet stock at PG right now, and Burke still couldn't make this NBA roster. What does that say?

He was available for the vets minimum for a reason. What does that say?

If he was even "average" as fishmike describes, HE'D BE IN AN NBA ROTATION RIGHT NOW. He's not. What does that say?

Burke is "organizational depth" When the Yankees lost Greg Bird, they signed Ji Man Choi from the Angel's scrapheap. A guy they knew wasn't going to stay on their roster, they just needed a warm body. That's "organizational depth"

If Burke could help the Knicks, or help anyone in the NBA, HE'D BE IN AN NBA ROTATION RIGHT NOW. How is this confusing for anyone?

If Burke could actually help a team on it's bench, THE KNICKS WOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN A CHANCE TO SIGN HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

If someone wants to push G/D League stats, you mean a physically mature player, who has been in the G/D League before, outperforming younger guys, most who are not fully developed yet, and not acclimated to this level of ball, and where he's facing clearly inferior competition than he faced in the NBA? And where he's allowed to be ball dominant without regard to any type of team play, which would not translate to the NBA.

How is this confusing for anyone?

He is NOT A LEAGUE AVERAGE PLAYER. If he was, HE WOULDN'T BE IN THE G LEAGUE IN THE FIRST PLACE. This is not some undrafted guy trying to hone his skills while being extremely young. This is a physically mature player who had his shot before, and didn't pan out. And now he's feasting on guys where many are inferior to even guys he played against in college.

reub wrote:"If he was even "average" as fishmike describes, HE'D BE IN AN NBA ROTATION RIGHT NOW. He's not. What does that say?"

This is a ridiculous comment to make. You can say that about any player who isn't yet an NBA rotation player and later became one.
He's 25, an age where many point guards start to flourish. His handles will immediately be the best on the team. He can penetrate better than anyone on the team. His three point shooting (42%) is waaay better than any point guard on our team. His overall scoring ability is better than any PG on the team. He's been working like crazy on his body and is playing tenacious, aggressive defense for a man of his size. He deserves a look.

nixluva wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

reub wrote:"If he was even "average" as fishmike describes, HE'D BE IN AN NBA ROTATION RIGHT NOW. He's not. What does that say?"

This is a ridiculous comment to make. You can say that about any player who isn't yet an NBA rotation player and later became one.
He's 25, an age where many point guards start to flourish. His handles will immediately be the best on the team. He can penetrate better than anyone on the team. His three point shooting (42%) is waaay better than any point guard on our team. His overall scoring ability is better than any PG on the team. He's been working like crazy on his body and is playing tenacious, aggressive defense for a man of his size. He deserves a look.

The difference is that Burke has already gotten ample opportunity to show who he is. Maybe he improved? No one knows for sure. But I don't think any moves should be made with the sole purpose of getting Burke a spot. If a trade happens and a spot opens, fine. But all those attributes you just prescribed to Burke are things he hasn't done in the NBA. He'll take what he can get. Moves need to be made in the team's best interest, not Burke's.

I’ll say this, just last year THJ was demoted to the G League and busted it down there. Got brought up and continued to improve. Now he’s a key to the Knicks success. It’s most definitely possible Burke had a similar humbling experience and is better for it.

The circumstances under which a player, outside his nominal three year major developmental window after being drafted, can make a rare major leap in development as an NBA player.

A) He suffered injuries which wiped out major chunks of his early seasons. (Jabari Parker is a bit of this now)

B) He just never got minutes or time in an NBA rotation, usually by depth. Jeremy Lin is a classic outlier to this while also being an example of this on the other end. With the Warriors, they had good guard depth. Everywhere else, it was a bit of the "Euro Bias" hyperfocused on him in a different way. Once he got minutes, he proved himself. He was still in his three year developmental window.

C) He was lazy or a malcontent, the issue was NOT talent NOR skill set, it was just wasting opportunity. This applies to guys like Farouq Aminu and some aspects of Gerald Green.

Burke got solid burn with the Jazz, because they were hurting at PG for a long time too. He has no major injury history. He actually does put in strong effort.

THJr is a different story. There was never a question about his physical ability to play in the NBA with at least league average size/length/athleticism.

Yes some point guards develop a bit slower, but these are guys who are developing while in a real NBA rotation. Burke is having a hard time proving he should even make the 15 man roster. That the Knicks are gutted at the position and he's still floating in the G League should tell you something about him.

Burke doesn't need humbling. He's just slow and small. All his negative tradeoffs don't have positive ones to balance out his game.

People keep telling me how valuable he can be. If that was the case, why didn't his previous teams want to keep him? Why did nearly every other team in the league have a shot at him to sign him and nearly all of them just didn't care.

And here is the "Bonus Baby" moment. Every team in the league already has the book on the sad defensive pairing of Enes Kanter and Trey Burke when they were in Utah together. Bringing Burke up means more of him and Kanter being human turnstiles on defense. Other teams with even a mediocre pick and roll will slaughter the Knicks. And on top of this, it would often leave Ntilikina, if he's on the floor, as the best defender on the floor. Which is a good way to burn out/demoralize a rookie player.

Welpee wrote:I'm ready to call up Burke and see what he can do. Sessions is garbage and the expiration date on Jack seems like its getting close.

+1

Welpee wrote:Kick Sessions to the curb and call up Burke. The rationale against it is if something happened to Jack you don't have a seasoned point guard to replace him and too much falls on Frank's shoulders. Well, It's not like Burke is a rookie. He's a four year NBA vet and when given the opportunity Sessions has looked horrible. Could Burke really be that much worse than Sessions if forced to play? Not to mention, Sessions doesn't look the least bit engaged on the bench. So what is he adding to the team.

Given this current tailspin and Jack looking shakier with each game, give the dude a look. What do we have to lose?

So you want to start the tank off early? I'm cool with the idea. Just don't try to sell me on Trey Burke saving the season.