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How can this dude drop so low--dont get it?
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CrushAlot
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12/26/2017  10:48 PM
But Willy Hernangomez was, statistically, the worst layup deterrent in the league. With him on the floor, Knicks opponents took 38.2 percent of their shots in the restricted area, the highest rate among the 256 players who were on the floor for at least 2,000 opponent shots.

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/09/29/one-team-one-stat-no-defense-new-york#/
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
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martin
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12/26/2017  11:51 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:Think he is a valued player around the league based on last season.
However the Knicks are in win now mode and they can't mortgage wins for the sake of player development. It's for this reason Frank does not start and same reason we see vets starting and getting big minutes.

If we were re-building, Willy, Frank and KP would be starting.
However also maybe if we're later in the season and out of the playoffs, we'll begin to shift towards that, give Willy and Frank more chances.

I personally would have brought Kanter off the bench, start Willy, and started Frank too. I think the three of them need that reps and playing time together (third being KP obviously). If for nothing else, you would see what you really have. Willy certainly won't be getting better sitting on the bench. He needs those reps. He needs playing time. He needs live action to learn the game.

I rather have started Willy, Frank and KP together, won 30 games, than to do what we're doing which is making a run for the playoffs, using vets and likely finishing 9 or 10 and just missing out. Those 10 extra losses would mean player development for Frank and Willy and also give the Knicks a better position in the draft.

What's the plan with Jack, Kanter and O'Quinn anyway? Say we finish the season with 41 wins. All three of them are going to command a big pay increase, and we should not be interested in paying any of them more than what they currently make. So maybe all 3 walk, and you've wasted a season on being 10 wins better with vets that likely leave.

I mean get it, tanking is bad for culture. But we wouldn't be tanking in playing Willy and Frank more minutes. We'd be doing player development and our backups would be quality NBA players like Kanter. There was alot of talk about Kanter being good for Porzingis, but we've seen Porzingis regress even with Kanter playing great. This is all on Porzingis. Porzingis can play like a MVP if he's healthy and he can be much worse if he's unhealthy.

Definitely not happy about Frank;s minutes/role and Willy's. I envisioned the two of them and KP starting this year. Perhaps if we're out of the playoff 8 in March, we do the right thing then.

Feel like you are trying to put a straight line to "development" without considering all of the pieces and nuances of putting a team and culture and long term team/player development together.

How do you teach earning a spot thru play if you are starting guys who don't deserve it? If you preach defense and let Willy start for the sake of starting, no one will take defense seriously or you as a coach/team seriously.

If you think throwing Frank to the wolves on day 1 was a good idea - a guy who could barely bring up the ball full court in his earliest games, who couldn't run the team, was and is still hesitant about offense - I think you should think again.

What about KP's overall development? If you can't put together some semblance of offense and defense, guys give up, just look at last year and the frustration; that's what would happen with Willy and Frank starting.

And if the team BOMBS again, KP does seriously think about going some place else and the Knicks are again a destination no one wants to go to.

Little surprised at this post, seems very backwards to me for the sake of getting high draft pick and without any sound semblance of building up players and team.

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NardDogNation
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12/27/2017  12:49 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/27/2017  1:11 AM
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Think he is a valued player around the league based on last season.
However the Knicks are in win now mode and they can't mortgage wins for the sake of player development. It's for this reason Frank does not start and same reason we see vets starting and getting big minutes.

If we were re-building, Willy, Frank and KP would be starting.
However also maybe if we're later in the season and out of the playoffs, we'll begin to shift towards that, give Willy and Frank more chances.

I personally would have brought Kanter off the bench, start Willy, and started Frank too. I think the three of them need that reps and playing time together (third being KP obviously). If for nothing else, you would see what you really have. Willy certainly won't be getting better sitting on the bench. He needs those reps. He needs playing time. He needs live action to learn the game.

I rather have started Willy, Frank and KP together, won 30 games, than to do what we're doing which is making a run for the playoffs, using vets and likely finishing 9 or 10 and just missing out. Those 10 extra losses would mean player development for Frank and Willy and also give the Knicks a better position in the draft.

What's the plan with Jack, Kanter and O'Quinn anyway? Say we finish the season with 41 wins. All three of them are going to command a big pay increase, and we should not be interested in paying any of them more than what they currently make. So maybe all 3 walk, and you've wasted a season on being 10 wins better with vets that likely leave.

I mean get it, tanking is bad for culture. But we wouldn't be tanking in playing Willy and Frank more minutes. We'd be doing player development and our backups would be quality NBA players like Kanter. There was alot of talk about Kanter being good for Porzingis, but we've seen Porzingis regress even with Kanter playing great. This is all on Porzingis. Porzingis can play like a MVP if he's healthy and he can be much worse if he's unhealthy.

Definitely not happy about Frank;s minutes/role and Willy's. I envisioned the two of them and KP starting this year. Perhaps if we're out of the playoff 8 in March, we do the right thing then.

Feel like you are trying to put a straight line to "development" without considering all of the pieces and nuances of putting a team and culture and long term team/player development together.

How do you teach earning a spot thru play if you are starting guys who don't deserve it? If you preach defense and let Willy start for the sake of starting, no one will take defense seriously or you as a coach/team seriously.

If you think throwing Frank to the wolves on day 1 was a good idea - a guy who could barely bring up the ball full court in his earliest games, who couldn't run the team, was and is still hesitant about offense - I think you should think again.

What about KP's overall development? If you can't put together some semblance of offense and defense, guys give up, just look at last year and the frustration; that's what would happen with Willy and Frank starting.

And if the team BOMBS again, KP does seriously think about going some place else and the Knicks are again a destination no one wants to go to.

Little surprised at this post, seems very backwards to me for the sake of getting high draft pick and without any sound semblance of building up players and team.

I highly doubt that we'd be at risk of losing Kristaps. Has there been any precedent for all-stars on rookie contracts leaving their original franchise during restricted free agency? With the way the current CBA is structured, there are tens of millions of dollars on the line should a guy like Kristaps want to walk before securing those extension dollars. Needless to say, I think his only focus will be on securing that contract and maximizing his earnings before demanding to leave.

This is a major reason why I'm an advocate of a slow-and-steady approach to building this team. We should be seeing if we can either find another all-star via the draft OR develop enough value/assets on the team to potentially trade for one. Right now, the Knicks are not in a position to pursue either option, which will be detrimental to us in the long-run. It's only a matter of time before Kristaps secures his extension and when that happens, THEN we will run the risk of him demanding to leave. Just ask the Cavs with LeBron in 2010; the Nuggets with Carmelo Anthony; the Magic with Dwight Howard; the Jazz low-key with Deron Williams; the Hornets/Pelicans with Chris Paul; and soon enough the Pelicans with Anthony Davis as well as Giannis with the Bucks.

As much as Willy might not be a blue-chip talent, we owe it to ourselves to figure out what he can be. We can't do that by benching him in order to secure a few meaningless wins. Doing so is how we get suckered into investing everything into a second round exit during the 2012-2013 season and perennial futility thereafter.

BRIGGS
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12/27/2017  4:18 AM
EnySpree wrote:Its all on Willy. I haven't seen that floater or a drop step from him all year. His picks aren't as good, he isn't running the floor. I think the dude expected preferential treatment and got let down. He's had plenty of chances to show he could play and he was terrible. Sucks for him. I'm really over talking about the guy. He needs a another team....

I’ve thought that we started the season not playing Willy to increase the other guys value— and our team and it’s big players just played themselves into jobs.
We’ve done a good job devaluing the asset and hurting Willy’s psych. Is there no way to get him minutes at the 4-5?

Nalod
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12/27/2017  8:20 AM
The trade rumors for bigs is heating up. Read McGee to bucks?
Briggs can’t fathom being wrong about Willy and it is a bit baffling.
KP is happy, the team charactor and chemistry is good. Tanking is always risky. Look at every draft and in the top 7 picks there are always guys that don’t pan out.
A good team must be able to bring in players and they get enhanced when the fit into the system.
THis is what the spurs do, its what warriors are doing.
If the team dysfunctioned again this season I believe KP would have requested a trade or worse, walked.
Anger sells, don't buy!
fishmike
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12/27/2017  9:12 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Its all on Willy. I haven't seen that floater or a drop step from him all year. His picks aren't as good, he isn't running the floor. I think the dude expected preferential treatment and got let down. He's had plenty of chances to show he could play and he was terrible. Sucks for him. I'm really over talking about the guy. He needs a another team....

I’ve thought that we started the season not playing Willy to increase the other guys value— and our team and it’s big players just played themselves into jobs.
We’ve done a good job devaluing the asset and hurting Willy’s psych. Is there no way to get him minutes at the 4-5?

over who Who does Willy deserve to play over? He's not a 4, and neither is Kanter or KOQ. So who's minutes does Willy take and why?
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Vmart
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12/27/2017  10:15 AM
Willie not playing is more agenda driven than anything else. JH is playing Kanter and because he is the big piece in the Melo trade. Wants to show that the Knicks did well in the trade. Also because Willie is Phil’s guy.

Remember when Mark Jackson commented on Jarret Jacks shoes he was wearing different color shoes so Jackson said I wouldn’t take him on my team in the play ground because of his shoes. Then JVG said what if it was LeBron wearing different shoes I’m taking him first is what Jackson said. Well I feel Willie is Jarret Jack. The odd man out. Willie is so much more skilled than O’Quin yet he can’t get more burn than him. Maybe the emphasis is on defense and Willie needs to step it up.

But I do believe that they are hurting Willie’s development he needs to play a lot more he can’t improve his defense unless he plays.

BRIGGS
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12/27/2017  10:22 AM
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Its all on Willy. I haven't seen that floater or a drop step from him all year. His picks aren't as good, he isn't running the floor. I think the dude expected preferential treatment and got let down. He's had plenty of chances to show he could play and he was terrible. Sucks for him. I'm really over talking about the guy. He needs a another team....

I’ve thought that we started the season not playing Willy to increase the other guys value— and our team and it’s big players just played themselves into jobs.
We’ve done a good job devaluing the asset and hurting Willy’s psych. Is there no way to get him minutes at the 4-5?

over who Who does Willy deserve to play over? He's not a 4, and neither is Kanter or KOQ. So who's minutes does Willy take and why?

the 4-5 position is nearly the same in the nba

Chandler
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12/27/2017  10:51 AM
honestly, do people think there is some form of conspiracy holding Willy to the bench

What is so hard to understand. I loved Willy last year. He hasn't been playing well this year in games and one should assume in practice too

Play the guys who earn it. Players respect that -- even if the guy riding pine is frustrated. And if a player doesn't respect that, that's on him. He either improves his game or moves his game to Europe or China

Keep in mind, the original poster was also lobbying for Okafor (based on past performance). Okafor was moved to what seemed like a great opportunity and is still riding pine -- now with the explanation being he is in horrible shape (how unprofessional is that). It happens.

Willy needs to step up. The only thing the team owes him is honesty, and the opportunity to play if he earns the minutes.

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SupremeCommander
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12/27/2017  11:16 AM
Chandler wrote:honestly, do people think there is some form of conspiracy holding Willy to the bench

What is so hard to understand. I loved Willy last year. He hasn't been playing well this year in games and one should assume in practice too

Play the guys who earn it. Players respect that -- even if the guy riding pine is frustrated. And if a player doesn't respect that, that's on him. He either improves his game or moves his game to Europe or China

Keep in mind, the original poster was also lobbying for Okafor (based on past performance). Okafor was moved to what seemed like a great opportunity and is still riding pine -- now with the explanation being he is in horrible shape (how unprofessional is that). It happens.

Willy needs to step up. The only thing the team owes him is honesty, and the opportunity to play if he earns the minutes.

I agree with this. Also worth pointing out is how buried he is on the depth chart. Kanter just posted a 30/20. KOQ has a 19.04 PER. Noah has actually achieved something in the NBA. When the other team goes small KP also gets added to the depth chart. Willy is just straight up buried. I don't have exception with Willy getting buried. That said, I wish management got in front of this one and flipped him for a perimeter player while his value was still intact.

fishmike said: Yes. Sometimes I confuse the alerts with when your mom calls. BTW she said defensive guards are really important.
martin
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12/27/2017  1:04 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Its all on Willy. I haven't seen that floater or a drop step from him all year. His picks aren't as good, he isn't running the floor. I think the dude expected preferential treatment and got let down. He's had plenty of chances to show he could play and he was terrible. Sucks for him. I'm really over talking about the guy. He needs a another team....

I’ve thought that we started the season not playing Willy to increase the other guys value— and our team and it’s big players just played themselves into jobs.
We’ve done a good job devaluing the asset and hurting Willy’s psych. Is there no way to get him minutes at the 4-5?

over who Who does Willy deserve to play over? He's not a 4, and neither is Kanter or KOQ. So who's minutes does Willy take and why?

the 4-5 position is nearly the same in the nba

asked a direct question, you decline to answer.

It's that simple.

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fishmike
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12/27/2017  1:25 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Its all on Willy. I haven't seen that floater or a drop step from him all year. His picks aren't as good, he isn't running the floor. I think the dude expected preferential treatment and got let down. He's had plenty of chances to show he could play and he was terrible. Sucks for him. I'm really over talking about the guy. He needs a another team....

I’ve thought that we started the season not playing Willy to increase the other guys value— and our team and it’s big players just played themselves into jobs.
We’ve done a good job devaluing the asset and hurting Willy’s psych. Is there no way to get him minutes at the 4-5?

over who Who does Willy deserve to play over? He's not a 4, and neither is Kanter or KOQ. So who's minutes does Willy take and why?

the 4-5 position is nearly the same in the nba

so you dont really know anything about how basketball is played by humans do you?
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Nalod
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12/27/2017  2:43 PM
Vmart wrote:Willie not playing is more agenda driven than anything else. JH is playing Kanter and because he is the big piece in the Melo trade. Wants to show that the Knicks did well in the trade. Also because Willie is Phil’s guy.

Remember when Mark Jackson commented on Jarret Jacks shoes he was wearing different color shoes so Jackson said I wouldn’t take him on my team in the play ground because of his shoes. Then JVG said what if it was LeBron wearing different shoes I’m taking him first is what Jackson said. Well I feel Willie is Jarret Jack. The odd man out. Willie is so much more skilled than O’Quin yet he can’t get more burn than him. Maybe the emphasis is on defense and Willie needs to step it up.

But I do believe that they are hurting Willie’s development he needs to play a lot more he can’t improve his defense unless he plays.

Im thinking Enes is better than Willy.
Jeff is playing to win. Winning gets you paid in the NBA if your a coach.
Jeff is also developing players.
Jeff is building a culture. You do this by rewarding those who play well. KOQ is playing really well.
Enes is playing real good ball.
KP is happy, team is happy but I suspect Willy is not.
Your suggesting Jeff is punishing WIlly because he is phil's guy. I don't agree with that.

Mark Jax is talking like a coach and he has to come up with controversial stuff to say on the air.
Jack has been great for the knicks. I don't care what he wears on his feet as long as its up to NBA code.
I love JVG but there are times he is being a pompous ass as an announcer.

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NardDogNation
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12/27/2017  5:26 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/27/2017  5:32 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
But Willy Hernangomez was, statistically, the worst layup deterrent in the league. With him on the floor, Knicks opponents took 38.2 percent of their shots in the restricted area, the highest rate among the 256 players who were on the floor for at least 2,000 opponent shots.

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/09/29/one-team-one-stat-no-defense-new-york#/

So is the expectation to square player development exclusively on the player? Because winning teams like the Spurs and teams with winning cultures like the Hawks, all seem to have an infrastructure capable of improving/mitigating individual player flaws.

I keep hearing the word "culture" thrown about by people who believe that we have one, yet our "success" this season has largely been attributed to us pouching known commodities that have been developed by other programs. If we truly had the "culture" so many believe exists, this wouldn't have to be the case and we wouldn't have to bash Willy Hernangomez for being an imperfect player since most young players are.

NardDogNation
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12/27/2017  6:12 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:Think he is a valued player around the league based on last season.
However the Knicks are in win now mode and they can't mortgage wins for the sake of player development. It's for this reason Frank does not start and same reason we see vets starting and getting big minutes.

If we were re-building, Willy, Frank and KP would be starting.
However also maybe if we're later in the season and out of the playoffs, we'll begin to shift towards that, give Willy and Frank more chances.

I personally would have brought Kanter off the bench, start Willy, and started Frank too. I think the three of them need that reps and playing time together (third being KP obviously). If for nothing else, you would see what you really have. Willy certainly won't be getting better sitting on the bench. He needs those reps. He needs playing time. He needs live action to learn the game.

I rather have started Willy, Frank and KP together, won 30 games, than to do what we're doing which is making a run for the playoffs, using vets and likely finishing 9 or 10 and just missing out. Those 10 extra losses would mean player development for Frank and Willy and also give the Knicks a better position in the draft.

What's the plan with Jack, Kanter and O'Quinn anyway? Say we finish the season with 41 wins. All three of them are going to command a big pay increase, and we should not be interested in paying any of them more than what they currently make. So maybe all 3 walk, and you've wasted a season on being 10 wins better with vets that likely leave.

I mean get it, tanking is bad for culture. But we wouldn't be tanking in playing Willy and Frank more minutes. We'd be doing player development and our backups would be quality NBA players like Kanter. There was alot of talk about Kanter being good for Porzingis, but we've seen Porzingis regress even with Kanter playing great. This is all on Porzingis. Porzingis can play like a MVP if he's healthy and he can be much worse if he's unhealthy.

Definitely not happy about Frank;s minutes/role and Willy's. I envisioned the two of them and KP starting this year. Perhaps if we're out of the playoff 8 in March, we do the right thing then.

I think starting or not starting is completely irrelevant to a player's development. The Spurs have hardly ever started their youth, yet have consistently managed to turn "fatally flawed", into not-so-flawed players that become good enough to start. The real questions we need to be asking are: (1) do we have the staff/personnel that can effectively address a player's flaws? And (2)Is the program comprehensive enough to grow a player's skillset?

Right now, I'm skeptical of the Knicks' ability to do that. If we had the exact same players the Hawks had during their 60-win season, would they have been as good? Could we have turned Paul Millsap into an all-star? Could we have made Jeff Teague a starting caliber PG? Could we have rescued DeMarre Carroll's career and turn him into one of the best 3-and-D guys in the league? I'm somewhat confident that our scouting staff could've identified some of these guys....but I don't think we'd have the infrastructure to have them reach the levels they did. And when you consider that we print money, this would be unacceptable and a fair greater disservice to Hernangomez than not starting him.

Finestrg
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12/27/2017  6:24 PM
I think it's a lack of confidence combined with (and having directly to do with) not playing. I understand there are times where it's looked like, when he has gotten a shot to play, he's dogging it but I think that's more to do with confusion out there rather than a blatant lack of effort. I haven't given up on this dude and I hope the Knicks haven't either. He's a good player--I like what he brings a lot -- very similar game to Kanter, Kanter just a lot further along. But I think this guy could definitely be built back up again. No question in my mind.
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12/27/2017  6:24 PM
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Its all on Willy. I haven't seen that floater or a drop step from him all year. His picks aren't as good, he isn't running the floor. I think the dude expected preferential treatment and got let down. He's had plenty of chances to show he could play and he was terrible. Sucks for him. I'm really over talking about the guy. He needs a another team....

I’ve thought that we started the season not playing Willy to increase the other guys value— and our team and it’s big players just played themselves into jobs.
We’ve done a good job devaluing the asset and hurting Willy’s psych. Is there no way to get him minutes at the 4-5?

over who Who does Willy deserve to play over? He's not a 4, and neither is Kanter or KOQ. So who's minutes does Willy take and why?

the 4-5 position is nearly the same in the nba

asked a direct question, you decline to answer.

It's that simple.

There is 96 minutes at the 4-5 position-- like I said if you read the whole post-- there should be a way to get him in there. Why does anyone have to sit?

Kp 28 minutes kanter 28 minutes oquinn willy and some beasley 3-4. This isn't about cutting others minutes-- it's about reconstituting the 4-5 position to include Willy.

martin
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12/27/2017  11:37 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Its all on Willy. I haven't seen that floater or a drop step from him all year. His picks aren't as good, he isn't running the floor. I think the dude expected preferential treatment and got let down. He's had plenty of chances to show he could play and he was terrible. Sucks for him. I'm really over talking about the guy. He needs a another team....

I’ve thought that we started the season not playing Willy to increase the other guys value— and our team and it’s big players just played themselves into jobs.
We’ve done a good job devaluing the asset and hurting Willy’s psych. Is there no way to get him minutes at the 4-5?

over who Who does Willy deserve to play over? He's not a 4, and neither is Kanter or KOQ. So who's minutes does Willy take and why?

the 4-5 position is nearly the same in the nba

asked a direct question, you decline to answer.

It's that simple.

There is 96 minutes at the 4-5 position-- like I said if you read the whole post-- there should be a way to get him in there. Why does anyone have to sit?

Kp 28 minutes kanter 28 minutes oquinn willy and some beasley 3-4. This isn't about cutting others minutes-- it's about reconstituting the 4-5 position to include Willy.

And yet you keep avoiding answering...

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GustavBahler
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12/28/2017  10:58 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/28/2017  11:03 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
But Willy Hernangomez was, statistically, the worst layup deterrent in the league. With him on the floor, Knicks opponents took 38.2 percent of their shots in the restricted area, the highest rate among the 256 players who were on the floor for at least 2,000 opponent shots.

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/09/29/one-team-one-stat-no-defense-new-york#/

That's how Willy dropped so low. He made a point of saying that he needed to work on his D over the summer, and the above was the result.

Not about politics, its about zero defense. If showcasing Willy can help get us a better starting PG via trade. Now or over the summer, Im all for it.

fishmike
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12/28/2017  11:01 AM
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Its all on Willy. I haven't seen that floater or a drop step from him all year. His picks aren't as good, he isn't running the floor. I think the dude expected preferential treatment and got let down. He's had plenty of chances to show he could play and he was terrible. Sucks for him. I'm really over talking about the guy. He needs a another team....

I’ve thought that we started the season not playing Willy to increase the other guys value— and our team and it’s big players just played themselves into jobs.
We’ve done a good job devaluing the asset and hurting Willy’s psych. Is there no way to get him minutes at the 4-5?

over who Who does Willy deserve to play over? He's not a 4, and neither is Kanter or KOQ. So who's minutes does Willy take and why?

the 4-5 position is nearly the same in the nba

asked a direct question, you decline to answer.

It's that simple.

There is 96 minutes at the 4-5 position-- like I said if you read the whole post-- there should be a way to get him in there. Why does anyone have to sit?

Kp 28 minutes kanter 28 minutes oquinn willy and some beasley 3-4. This isn't about cutting others minutes-- it's about reconstituting the 4-5 position to include Willy.

And yet you keep avoiding answering...


well he kind of answered it. Cut KP's minutes.

So Briggs thinks we should cut KP's minutes to give Willy time. Awesome.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
How can this dude drop so low--dont get it?

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