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Knicks are becoming isolation happy
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Vmart
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12/23/2017  10:57 AM
My observation of the Knicks lately, they are become more and more isolation team. These are the thing this team must avoid. Late turnovers because everyone knows what they are doing. Either go to Beasley or go to KP. Instead of having a free flow offense it all come crashing down into a stagnating offense.

They need to go triple post and move that ball around better. They have a 5 point lead and they are trying to force the ball to KP. Isolation is fine but you keep going to that well and teams will make adjustments to stop it. I’m seeing a lot less 3-4 passes before a shot and it’s a concern going forward especially on the road. Isolation doesn’t work well on the road. Team ball and ball movement wins on the road.

AUTOADVERT
Swishfm3
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12/23/2017  11:11 AM
I wish you were coaching the knicks and not hornacek
NYKBocker
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12/23/2017  11:50 AM
I agree. I think the stench of ISO ball permeates too much in today's NBA. Too me..either go with motion or do what Detroit did and have a 2 man game on top of the key.
Jmpasq
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12/27/2017  7:07 AM
Vmart wrote:My observation of the Knicks lately, they are become more and more isolation team. These are the thing this team must avoid. Late turnovers because everyone knows what they are doing. Either go to Beasley or go to KP. Instead of having a free flow offense it all come crashing down into a stagnating offense.

They need to go triple post and move that ball around better. They have a 5 point lead and they are trying to force the ball to KP. Isolation is fine but you keep going to that well and teams will make adjustments to stop it. I’m seeing a lot less 3-4 passes before a shot and it’s a concern going forward especially on the road. Isolation doesn’t work well on the road. Team ball and ball movement wins on the road.


Thats who KP is are u really surprised? if your best scorer doesn't pass at all you will probably be iso heavy. Its been way worse since Hardaway has been off the floor. The other thing that sux about Iso basketball is you make the other team use no energy on defense.
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Knixkik
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12/27/2017  9:18 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/27/2017  9:18 AM
It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.
fishmike
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12/27/2017  9:22 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
Vmart wrote:My observation of the Knicks lately, they are become more and more isolation team. These are the thing this team must avoid. Late turnovers because everyone knows what they are doing. Either go to Beasley or go to KP. Instead of having a free flow offense it all come crashing down into a stagnating offense.

They need to go triple post and move that ball around better. They have a 5 point lead and they are trying to force the ball to KP. Isolation is fine but you keep going to that well and teams will make adjustments to stop it. I’m seeing a lot less 3-4 passes before a shot and it’s a concern going forward especially on the road. Isolation doesn’t work well on the road. Team ball and ball movement wins on the road.


Thats who KP is are u really surprised? if your best scorer doesn't pass at all you will probably be iso heavy. Its been way worse since Hardaway has been off the floor. The other thing that sux about Iso basketball is you make the other team use no energy on defense.
trade KP! We could get 2 first rounders for sure! ...this guy

VMart... you are right, but do you think it's by design? Knicks have not had good guard play of late. Jack/Frank/Baker have struggled of late, and we know thats not a great offensive group to start with. Hardaway is a good ball mover, missing him hurts. Mostly its the PG play. Jack has his moments and has really helped but he's a journeyman coming off 2 years of injuries and Frank is 19. There are going to be some tough stretches.

fishmike
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12/27/2017  9:46 AM
Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.
well said... you beat me by 2 minutes. Couldnt agree more.
knicks1248
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12/27/2017  10:14 AM
fishmike wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.
well said... you beat me by 2 minutes. Couldnt agree more.

That's why I posted the Trae young thread.

what I have seen from jack and frank is the inability to take advantage of open lanes, they consistently walk the ball up court even on miss shots. when they have the ability to blow by a defender, they don't, they run a Iso for bease or kp, and worse, they don't cut hard and fast.

I would even see about bringing Jennings back in January for the remainder of the season. I think china's season is over in late January, he would be decent in a non triangle situation.

ES
Vmart
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12/27/2017  10:25 AM
I agree with the need for a PG, there are games where Jarret Jack is running on fumes. Ntlikina is a very young player and aggressiveness isn’t a strong point yet still feels like JH has him on reigns at times. Put it this way Ntlikina has to start to drive and put up more shots that is the only way to get better in the NBA. This is how he is going to learn what shot to take and what not to take and what he needs to work on and get better at. This is a rebuilding year and it should not be forgotten.
SupremeCommander
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12/27/2017  11:28 AM
Vmart wrote:I agree with the need for a PG, there are games where Jarret Jack is running on fumes. Ntlikina is a very young player and aggressiveness isn’t a strong point yet still feels like JH has him on reigns at times. Put it this way Ntlikina has to start to drive and put up more shots that is the only way to get better in the NBA. This is how he is going to learn what shot to take and what not to take and what he needs to work on and get better at. This is a rebuilding year and it should not be forgotten.

to me this is an argument to sell high. This team needs a floor general. It will cost some serious young/future assets to get a guy like that... better to sell and add to our core moving forward, as well as address the deficiency in the offseason, that is assuming that management finally pulls their heads out of their asses on this subject

GustavBahler said: Check please....
GustavBahler
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12/27/2017  11:52 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:
Vmart wrote:I agree with the need for a PG, there are games where Jarret Jack is running on fumes. Ntlikina is a very young player and aggressiveness isn’t a strong point yet still feels like JH has him on reigns at times. Put it this way Ntlikina has to start to drive and put up more shots that is the only way to get better in the NBA. This is how he is going to learn what shot to take and what not to take and what he needs to work on and get better at. This is a rebuilding year and it should not be forgotten.

to me this is an argument to sell high. This team needs a floor general. It will cost some serious young/future assets to get a guy like that... better to sell and add to our core moving forward, as well as address the deficiency in the offseason, that is assuming that management finally pulls their heads out of their asses on this subject

If we could make a deal for Fultz, that would be something. Offer Frank, Willy (after some showcasing), and a 1st rounder. Philly doesnt seem to be interested in any deal right now for Fultz. Cant say I blame them. They do have Simmons, who runs the point very well. They dont have a backcourt defender as promising as Frank, I believe.

Frank is playing more in the paint with every game. Looks like he is listening to his teammates who are encouraging him to be more aggressive. Still, he's going to have to take a crash course in breaking down a defender over the summer. Hope that, and conditioning is what Frank focuses next summer. Lateral movement as well. Agree we should draft another PG who is more of a threat to get to the rim, and the line. How many times do our PGs get to the line in a game? Not nearly enough.

fishmike
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12/27/2017  12:17 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.
well said... you beat me by 2 minutes. Couldnt agree more.

That's why I posted the Trae young thread.

what I have seen from jack and frank is the inability to take advantage of open lanes, they consistently walk the ball up court even on miss shots. when they have the ability to blow by a defender, they don't, they run a Iso for bease or kp, and worse, they don't cut hard and fast.

I would even see about bringing Jennings back in January for the remainder of the season. I think china's season is over in late January, he would be decent in a non triangle situation.

I saw the thread. I found the idea stupid and therefore didnt post in it. Trading Frank? Bringing back Jennings? I am sure your a nice guy but your basketball ideas are generally the exact opposite of what strikes me as good. Jennings did not work here. But you like Rose also... another doodoo player.

The Knicks are rebuilding. They have said this. This isnt a fix it situation. This is a grow it situation. Jack is here and playing and starting because he's a smart player and can do basic things (most of the time). The logic is simple here for the "I thought we were rebuilding" crowd. You dont want to hurt your player development by having them play with guys who cant do the basics.

Our PGs coming into the season were Baker, a guy we all knew wasnt a PG, a 19 year old from EU and two journeyman veteran minimum player in Jack and Sessions. Adding THjr (another deal 1248 ripped on) really helped, and we have seen the Knicks struggle at guard since he's been out. Hardaway was playing his best BB as a pro and was a good ball mover on offense. Missing him has put more pressure on our PGs, an already thin crew.

Trae Young isnt fixing this. Neither is Cat Barber or Trey Burke or any of these shiny objects.

This is the time to develop Frank, see if Baker is a real NBA player and get what you can from Jack. This is not a contender with a roster weakness that needs to be fixed. This is a new team still evaluating what they have.

GustavBahler
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12/27/2017  12:41 PM
We have the lowest pt production from the starting PG postion in the league. If that werent the case, we would be more than a fringe playoff team right now.

One way or another, this must be addressed next season, from the opening tipoff.

fishmike
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12/27/2017  1:44 PM
GustavBahler wrote:We have the lowest pt production from the starting PG postion in the league. If that werent the case, we would be more than a fringe playoff team right now.

One way or another, this must be addressed next season, from the opening tipoff.

Aside from the 19 year old its a blank slate. Will Frank be ready to start next year? I could envision that yes... but what if the best prospect on the board is some defensive SF? The FA crop isnt going to work... its possible that the best upgrade will be start Frank and hope a guy like Trey Burke wins the backup roll and gives us some offense?

I have seen enough to commit to Frank as the future PG. I think we can build a team around he and KP's defense.

I would have no problem drafting a PG if he's the BPA either, but my point is I dont see any quick fixes and if you are rebuilding we shouldnt look for one.

Lets see what happens with Burke

knicks1248
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12/27/2017  2:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/27/2017  2:31 PM
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.
well said... you beat me by 2 minutes. Couldnt agree more.

That's why I posted the Trae young thread.

what I have seen from jack and frank is the inability to take advantage of open lanes, they consistently walk the ball up court even on miss shots. when they have the ability to blow by a defender, they don't, they run a Iso for bease or kp, and worse, they don't cut hard and fast.

I would even see about bringing Jennings back in January for the remainder of the season. I think china's season is over in late January, he would be decent in a non triangle situation.

I saw the thread. I found the idea stupid and therefore didnt post in it. Trading Frank? Bringing back Jennings? I am sure your a nice guy but your basketball ideas are generally the exact opposite of what strikes me as good. Jennings did not work here. But you like Rose also... another doodoo player.

The Knicks are rebuilding. They have said this. This isnt a fix it situation. This is a grow it situation. Jack is here and playing and starting because he's a smart player and can do basic things (most of the time). The logic is simple here for the "I thought we were rebuilding" crowd. You dont want to hurt your player development by having them play with guys who cant do the basics.

Our PGs coming into the season were Baker, a guy we all knew wasnt a PG, a 19 year old from EU and two journeyman veteran minimum player in Jack and Sessions. Adding THjr (another deal 1248 ripped on) really helped, and we have seen the Knicks struggle at guard since he's been out. Hardaway was playing his best BB as a pro and was a good ball mover on offense. Missing him has put more pressure on our PGs, an already thin crew.

Trae Young isnt fixing this. Neither is Cat Barber or Trey Burke or any of these shiny objects.

This is the time to develop Frank, see if Baker is a real NBA player and get what you can from Jack. This is not a contender with a roster weakness that needs to be fixed. This is a new team still evaluating what they have.

So what's your great idea, give frank 4 yrs and see if he pans out. Just because frank is has some talent doesn't mean he's a perfect fit for JH system. Just because we were predicted to be a bad team and we are now a decent team, doesn't mean we should just be happy with where we are, if there is an opportunity to level up your pg situation(which needs to happen), they need to make a move.

ES
Nalod
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12/27/2017  2:50 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.
well said... you beat me by 2 minutes. Couldnt agree more.

That's why I posted the Trae young thread.

what I have seen from jack and frank is the inability to take advantage of open lanes, they consistently walk the ball up court even on miss shots. when they have the ability to blow by a defender, they don't, they run a Iso for bease or kp, and worse, they don't cut hard and fast.

I would even see about bringing Jennings back in January for the remainder of the season. I think china's season is over in late January, he would be decent in a non triangle situation.

I saw the thread. I found the idea stupid and therefore didnt post in it. Trading Frank? Bringing back Jennings? I am sure your a nice guy but your basketball ideas are generally the exact opposite of what strikes me as good. Jennings did not work here. But you like Rose also... another doodoo player.

The Knicks are rebuilding. They have said this. This isnt a fix it situation. This is a grow it situation. Jack is here and playing and starting because he's a smart player and can do basic things (most of the time). The logic is simple here for the "I thought we were rebuilding" crowd. You dont want to hurt your player development by having them play with guys who cant do the basics.

Our PGs coming into the season were Baker, a guy we all knew wasnt a PG, a 19 year old from EU and two journeyman veteran minimum player in Jack and Sessions. Adding THjr (another deal 1248 ripped on) really helped, and we have seen the Knicks struggle at guard since he's been out. Hardaway was playing his best BB as a pro and was a good ball mover on offense. Missing him has put more pressure on our PGs, an already thin crew.

Trae Young isnt fixing this. Neither is Cat Barber or Trey Burke or any of these shiny objects.

This is the time to develop Frank, see if Baker is a real NBA player and get what you can from Jack. This is not a contender with a roster weakness that needs to be fixed. This is a new team still evaluating what they have.

So what's your great idea, give frank 4 yrs and see if he pans out. Just because frank is has some talent doesn't mean he's a perfect fit for JH system. Just because we were predicted to be a bad team and we are now a decent team, doesn't mean we should just be happy with where we are, if there is an opportunity to level up your pg situation(which needs to happen), they need to make a move.

You see Trae young tear up non conference play and want to trade Frank for him.
You must also expect that Trae Young transfers all that into NBA numbers.
Truth be told, he might need time to develop. Then you are back in the game of developing.

Whats wrong with moving toard .500 for the season? Is that not progress by itself?

The story of the knicks in 2017 is not what we lack, its whats actually working!!!!
You want to fix something that is not broken.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Panos
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12/27/2017  2:57 PM
Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.

Somebody please explain to me why you wound play Frank, someone who can't drive or shoot, at the SHOOTING guard?

fishmike
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12/27/2017  3:04 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.
well said... you beat me by 2 minutes. Couldnt agree more.

That's why I posted the Trae young thread.

what I have seen from jack and frank is the inability to take advantage of open lanes, they consistently walk the ball up court even on miss shots. when they have the ability to blow by a defender, they don't, they run a Iso for bease or kp, and worse, they don't cut hard and fast.

I would even see about bringing Jennings back in January for the remainder of the season. I think china's season is over in late January, he would be decent in a non triangle situation.

I saw the thread. I found the idea stupid and therefore didnt post in it. Trading Frank? Bringing back Jennings? I am sure your a nice guy but your basketball ideas are generally the exact opposite of what strikes me as good. Jennings did not work here. But you like Rose also... another doodoo player.

The Knicks are rebuilding. They have said this. This isnt a fix it situation. This is a grow it situation. Jack is here and playing and starting because he's a smart player and can do basic things (most of the time). The logic is simple here for the "I thought we were rebuilding" crowd. You dont want to hurt your player development by having them play with guys who cant do the basics.

Our PGs coming into the season were Baker, a guy we all knew wasnt a PG, a 19 year old from EU and two journeyman veteran minimum player in Jack and Sessions. Adding THjr (another deal 1248 ripped on) really helped, and we have seen the Knicks struggle at guard since he's been out. Hardaway was playing his best BB as a pro and was a good ball mover on offense. Missing him has put more pressure on our PGs, an already thin crew.

Trae Young isnt fixing this. Neither is Cat Barber or Trey Burke or any of these shiny objects.

This is the time to develop Frank, see if Baker is a real NBA player and get what you can from Jack. This is not a contender with a roster weakness that needs to be fixed. This is a new team still evaluating what they have.

So what's your great idea, give frank 4 yrs and see if he pans out. Just because frank is has some talent doesn't mean he's a perfect fit for JH system. Just because we were predicted to be a bad team and we are now a decent team, doesn't mean we should just be happy with where we are, if there is an opportunity to level up your pg situation(which needs to happen), they need to make a move.

sure... but your suggestions to trade a 19 year old or bring back guys like Brandon Jennings are not level ups. Those are dummy downs.

My great plan? Its sit back and let Perry do his job. What has he said? That they are building for a long term and sustainable team. That they are building around defense and a team that shares the ball and plays tough. So ANYTHING in my plan is going to fit into the long term fit.

For example I am not going to disrupt team chemistry or hold back a player's development for a small "level up" which your ideas are not anyway. So the plan is do exactly what you are seeing. Give Frank as much time to grow as I can while keeping the the PG play stable enough where it doesnt hurt the team. Trey Burke is leading the G league in scoring. We signed him. He' 25 and in the queue to come up. So the first move you will probably see is Sessions go and Burke come up. Give him a chance in practice to show what he can do and hopefully beat out Ron Baker for those minutes.

After that its the draft. After that is FA. After that is trades. After that is let em play and work on getting them to be better players. Remember you said Kater, McD and THjr all sucked and played no defense? So either you were dead wrong or the Knicks have them playing better defense than they had at previous spots. Thats the point. Its just as important to make em better as it is to get better players.

Thats how it works in the real world. Not "lets level up with Brandon Jennings." I mean these are grown men on a team being coached by other grown men. This is not a game. This is not throwing poop on the wall. We have seen how things go on orgs that do that. Its been the Knicks for 15+ we are trying to build a better culture. For you its a video game. For those actually involved its their whole life. There is some real world aspects that you simply ignore. Think about it.

fishmike
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12/27/2017  3:06 PM
Panos wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.

Somebody please explain to me why you wound play Frank, someone who can't drive or shoot, at the SHOOTING guard?

you dont sound very high on Frank as a BB player. He's much less valuable at the 2, but the point is defense... he can defend multiple positions so you can play him with another PG who's more of a scorer.
Panos
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12/27/2017  3:12 PM
fishmike wrote:
Panos wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.
Somebody please explain to me why you wound play Frank, someone who can't drive or shoot, at the SHOOTING guard?
you dont sound very high on Frank as a BB player. He's much less valuable at the 2, but the point is defense... he can defend multiple positions so you can play him with another PG who's more of a scorer.

I rank his defense much higher than his passing/playmaking, and in turn, much much higher than his shooting and driving. No way I'd put him at the 2. The SG has to score in this league unless you have a young Tony Parker or Steph Curry, neither of whom i see is getting. And even if we did, I'd still keep Frank at the backup PG. I just don't see value playing him at the 2.

Knicks are becoming isolation happy

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