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Just for fun: Rookie re-draft so far...
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Knixkik
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12/21/2017  1:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/21/2017  4:41 PM
1. Philly- Mitchell- this guy is exactly what they were hoping for in Fultz and is the ideal combo guard to play off of someone like Simmons. (they shouldn't have traded for this pick, but that's another story.)
2. LA- Tatum- Much better shooter and defender than we all thought.
3. Boston- J. Collins- young big man with upside. Would fit well next to Horford.
4. Phoenix- Ball- Might not be a star, but will be a good PG for a long time.
5. Kings- Fox- probably still the right long-term pick at this point.
6. Orlando- Fultz- Huge question mark, but probably still a worthy gamble for a team in need of a franchise guard.
7. Chicago- Markannen- still a good pick.
8. New York- Ntilikina- i still think this pick turns out well. We see the upside.
9. Dallas- DSjr- He's been just okay, but still the right pick there.
10. Portland- Kuzma- Going to be a good scoring 4 for a long time.

I left out Isaac and Jackson. I have been watching Jackson and he doesn't seem to do anything above average. Amazing that some wanted to deal Porzingis for him. Also, Isaac has been hurt, but given the surprising start from some rookies, i just don't see him being a top 10 player. He has talent, but no real strong skill at this point in time.

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newyorknewyork
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12/21/2017  5:05 PM
Collins has been good. But Boston would take Markkenan over him.

Isaac just like Fox is still the strong long term potential prospect.

Wonder if the Suns would make Jackson available at the draft?

BRIGGS
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12/21/2017  5:48 PM
Knixkik wrote:1. Philly- Mitchell- this guy is exactly what they were hoping for in Fultz and is the ideal combo guard to play off of someone like Simmons. (they shouldn't have traded for this pick, but that's another story.)
2. LA- Tatum- Much better shooter and defender than we all thought.
3. Boston- J. Collins- young big man with upside. Would fit well next to Horford.
4. Phoenix- Ball- Might not be a star, but will be a good PG for a long time.
5. Kings- Fox- probably still the right long-term pick at this point.
6. Orlando- Fultz- Huge question mark, but probably still a worthy gamble for a team in need of a franchise guard.
7. Chicago- Markannen- still a good pick.
8. New York- Ntilikina- i still think this pick turns out well. We see the upside.
9. Dallas- DSjr- He's been just okay, but still the right pick there.
10. Portland- Kuzma- Going to be a good scoring 4 for a long time.

I left out Isaac and Jackson. I have been watching Jackson and he doesn't seem to do anything above average. Amazing that some wanted to deal Porzingis for him. Also, Isaac has been hurt, but given the surprising start from some rookies, i just don't see him being a top 10 player. He has talent, but no real strong skill at this point in time.

Kuzma would have to be top 3.

Swishfm3
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12/21/2017  5:54 PM
If based on BPA, and the lakers don't trade D.Russell, then I agree with your top 2.

3. Boston - Kuzma
4. Phoenix - Ball
5. Kings - Fox
6. Orlando - Markannen
7. Chicago - D. Smith Jr.
8. NY - F. Ntilikina
9. Dallas - J. Isaac
10.Portland - J. Collins

Knixkik
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12/21/2017  6:22 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
Knixkik wrote:1. Philly- Mitchell- this guy is exactly what they were hoping for in Fultz and is the ideal combo guard to play off of someone like Simmons. (they shouldn't have traded for this pick, but that's another story.)
2. LA- Tatum- Much better shooter and defender than we all thought.
3. Boston- J. Collins- young big man with upside. Would fit well next to Horford.
4. Phoenix- Ball- Might not be a star, but will be a good PG for a long time.
5. Kings- Fox- probably still the right long-term pick at this point.
6. Orlando- Fultz- Huge question mark, but probably still a worthy gamble for a team in need of a franchise guard.
7. Chicago- Markannen- still a good pick.
8. New York- Ntilikina- i still think this pick turns out well. We see the upside.
9. Dallas- DSjr- He's been just okay, but still the right pick there.
10. Portland- Kuzma- Going to be a good scoring 4 for a long time.

I left out Isaac and Jackson. I have been watching Jackson and he doesn't seem to do anything above average. Amazing that some wanted to deal Porzingis for him. Also, Isaac has been hurt, but given the surprising start from some rookies, i just don't see him being a top 10 player. He has talent, but no real strong skill at this point in time.

Kuzma would have to be top 3.

He's been a top 3 rookie, but his perceived potential is still less than some of the younger guys. Hes older than porzingis for example. As good as he's been, no one thinks he's going to be a superstar or franchise player.

Knixkik
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12/21/2017  6:27 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:Collins has been good. But Boston would take Markkenan over him.

Isaac just like Fox is still the strong long term potential prospect.

Wonder if the Suns would make Jackson available at the draft?

Is Markkenan a better prospect than Collins ? Collins seems like that athletic, rebounding, defending big that Boston needs.

BRIGGS
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12/21/2017  6:40 PM
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
Knixkik wrote:1. Philly- Mitchell- this guy is exactly what they were hoping for in Fultz and is the ideal combo guard to play off of someone like Simmons. (they shouldn't have traded for this pick, but that's another story.)
2. LA- Tatum- Much better shooter and defender than we all thought.
3. Boston- J. Collins- young big man with upside. Would fit well next to Horford.
4. Phoenix- Ball- Might not be a star, but will be a good PG for a long time.
5. Kings- Fox- probably still the right long-term pick at this point.
6. Orlando- Fultz- Huge question mark, but probably still a worthy gamble for a team in need of a franchise guard.
7. Chicago- Markannen- still a good pick.
8. New York- Ntilikina- i still think this pick turns out well. We see the upside.
9. Dallas- DSjr- He's been just okay, but still the right pick there.
10. Portland- Kuzma- Going to be a good scoring 4 for a long time.

I left out Isaac and Jackson. I have been watching Jackson and he doesn't seem to do anything above average. Amazing that some wanted to deal Porzingis for him. Also, Isaac has been hurt, but given the surprising start from some rookies, i just don't see him being a top 10 player. He has talent, but no real strong skill at this point in time.

Kuzma would have to be top 3.

He's been a top 3 rookie, but his perceived potential is still less than some of the younger guys. Hes older than porzingis for example. As good as he's been, no one thinks he's going to be a superstar or franchise player.


LOL you can believe what you want--Ill believe my eyes. Kuzma is a top 3 player and a potential franchise player in his own right. You know I was on J Collins way before anyone last year--hes going to be up there too but Kuzma was almost like drafting Paul Pierce.
Knixkik
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12/21/2017  6:59 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
Knixkik wrote:1. Philly- Mitchell- this guy is exactly what they were hoping for in Fultz and is the ideal combo guard to play off of someone like Simmons. (they shouldn't have traded for this pick, but that's another story.)
2. LA- Tatum- Much better shooter and defender than we all thought.
3. Boston- J. Collins- young big man with upside. Would fit well next to Horford.
4. Phoenix- Ball- Might not be a star, but will be a good PG for a long time.
5. Kings- Fox- probably still the right long-term pick at this point.
6. Orlando- Fultz- Huge question mark, but probably still a worthy gamble for a team in need of a franchise guard.
7. Chicago- Markannen- still a good pick.
8. New York- Ntilikina- i still think this pick turns out well. We see the upside.
9. Dallas- DSjr- He's been just okay, but still the right pick there.
10. Portland- Kuzma- Going to be a good scoring 4 for a long time.

I left out Isaac and Jackson. I have been watching Jackson and he doesn't seem to do anything above average. Amazing that some wanted to deal Porzingis for him. Also, Isaac has been hurt, but given the surprising start from some rookies, i just don't see him being a top 10 player. He has talent, but no real strong skill at this point in time.

Kuzma would have to be top 3.

He's been a top 3 rookie, but his perceived potential is still less than some of the younger guys. Hes older than porzingis for example. As good as he's been, no one thinks he's going to be a superstar or franchise player.


LOL you can believe what you want--Ill believe my eyes. Kuzma is a top 3 player and a potential franchise player in his own right. You know I was on J Collins way before anyone last year--hes going to be up there too but Kuzma was almost like drafting Paul Pierce.

Briggs you tend to really like whoever is hot. Kuzma is coming off some really big games and should continue to improve. But you are bordering on overrating him. He has come out of nowhere and has done a lot of his work against second units. He's not on the radar of defenses yet. He is getting whatever he wants. Teams will adjust. He will too I'm sure. But he's absolutely not what you are making him to be. But he's a very good player.

Uptown
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12/21/2017  7:07 PM
Swishfm3 wrote:If based on BPA, and the lakers don't trade D.Russell, then I agree with your top 2.

3. Boston - Kuzma
4. Phoenix - Ball
5. Kings - Fox
6. Orlando - Markannen
7. Chicago - D. Smith Jr.
8. NY - F. Ntilikina
9. Dallas - J. Isaac
10.Portland - J. Collins

If you are basing this on BPA, D. Mitchell would be a top 3 pick...

CrushAlot
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12/21/2017  7:39 PM
Kevin Pelton - Ranking Lonzo Ball, Jayson Tatum and top 10 NBA rookies so far
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Kevin Pelton - Ranking Lonzo Ball, Jayson Tatum and top 10 NBA rookies so far
by Kevin Pelton on 2017-12-10 13:01:00 UTC (original: http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/21825051/kevin-pelton-ranking-lonzo-ball-jayson-tatum-top-10-nba-rookies-far)

Ben Simmons or Jayson Tatum? What about Donovan Mitchell? Where do Lonzo Ball and fellow Lakers rookie Kyle Kuzma land?

In the first incarnation of ESPN Insider's rookie rankings, I'll be breaking down the top 10 first-year players in terms of how much they've done to help their teams win so far with guidance from advanced statistics. And while that process might mean some surprising results, it also confirms conventional wisdom about the top players in what has so far been a strong rookie class.

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1. Ben Simmons | PG | Philadelphia 76ers
After an incredible start, Simmons has slowed down a bit in December, becoming more playmaker than scorer. Simmons is averaging just 13.2 points per 36 minutes this month, down from 18.8 beforehand, largely because he's attempting fewer shots. At the same time, Simmons' assist rate is up to 8.7 per 36 minutes. So while Simmons' versatility index has declined slightly, it's still the best on record for a rookie.

That versatility is a big factor in Simmons rating as the league's best rookie in ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) (plus-2.5 points per 100 possessions). When it comes to value, Simmons' durability is also a plus. He's averaging 36.7 minutes per game, which would be the most for a rookie since Damian Lillard in 2012-13 (38.6).

2. Jayson Tatum | SF | Boston Celtics
Simmons coming back to the pack has helped Tatum make this a two-man race for Rookie of the Year at this point. He's actually ahead of Simmons in my wins above replacement player (WARP) metric, though Simmons has the advantage in Basketball-Reference.com's box plus-minus stat as well as RPM.

Of course, Tatum is almost certainly due for some regression of his own from 3-point range. He continues to shoot a league-high 51.5 percent on 3s, a rate that would be hard to sustain for anyone, let alone a rookie who shot just 34.2 percent from the shorter NCAA line last season. (Amazingly, Tatum has been even better on 3s in December than the season's first six weeks, hitting nearly 59 percent of them.)

However, Tatum has been good enough elsewhere -- making better than 50 percent of his 2s while attempting four free throws for every 10 field-goal attempts and making them at an 83.6 percent clip -- to remain efficient even when his 3-point shooting inevitably drops off. And Tatum has also proven a quick study as part of the NBA's best defense.

3. Donovan Mitchell | G | Utah Jazz
Having joined a team in desperate need of shot creation after losing Gordon Hayward to the Celtics, Mitchell is carrying an unusually heavy load for a rookie. The 28.9 percent of the Jazz's plays Mitchell is using with a shot attempt, trip to the free throw line or turnover is one of the highest rates for a rookie since player turnovers were first tracked in 1977-78.

Highest usage rates, rookies
Player Season Team Usage
Joel Embiid 2016-17 PHI .362
Ben Gordon 2004-05 CHI .319
Mark Aguirre 1981-82 DAL .298
Michael Jordan 1984-85 CHI .298
Glenn Robinson 1994-95 MIL .291
Allen Iverson 1996-97 PHI .290
Donovan Mitchell 2017-18 UTA .289
Kyrie Irving 2011-12 CLE .289
Ron Harper 1986-87 CLE .289
Since 1977-78; minimum 20 mpg
So why doesn't Mitchell rank as more valuable by all-in-one statistics? While he's gotten his efficiency to an acceptable point, posting an impressive .599 true shooting percentage after languishing at a miserable .409 in October, Mitchell's adjusted true shooting percentage still lags behind Tatum and a handful of rookies in smaller roles.

(Adjusted true shooting percentage estimates the true shooting percentage a player would shoot if using plays at a league-average rate given the typical relationship between usage and efficiency, putting players like Mitchell who are asked to create their own offense on a more level playing field.)

Adjusted true shooting, rookies
Player Team Usage TS aTS
Jayson Tatum BOS .176 .648 .636
John Collins ATL .202 .624 .625
Kyle Kuzma LAL .218 .587 .596
OG Anunoby TOR .128 .620 .584
Donovan Mitchell UTA .289 .532 .577
4. OG Anunoby | SF | Toronto Raptors
Along with Tatum, Anunoby is one of two rookies playing an important role on a contending team. It took the Indiana product less than a month to crack the Raptors' starting five, seemingly for good. They've gone 13-3 in his 16 starts, and Toronto's new starting five is outscoring opponents by 21 points per 100 possessions according to NBA.com/Stats. No wonder Anunoby is nearly the equal of Simmons and Tatum (plus-2.4) when it comes to his RPM (plus-2.3).

Assuming the ACL he tore in January healed properly, there was never much question that Anunoby would be an effective defender. But he's proven far more advanced offensively than expected. Like Tatum, Anunoby is probably due for some 3-point regression (he's shooting 43.0 percent after hitting 31.1 percent last college season). Beyond that, he's flashed surprising playmaking ability and excellent decision making.

5. John Collins | F/C | Atlanta Hawks
Because he's coming off the bench for a 7-23 team, Collins' production has been somewhat overshadowed. Quietly, he's averaging 17.7 points and 11.1 rebounds per 36 minutes while making an even 60 percent of his 2-point attempts. Collins' explosiveness around the basket has helped him record 49 dunks, the league's eighth-highest total per Basketball-Reference.com.

With those high-percentage finishes, Collins' 54.4 percent shooting as a roll man in the pick-and-roll ranks seventh among players with at least 50 such attempts according to Synergy Sports tracking on NBA.com/Stats.

6. Jordan Bell | PF | Golden State Warriors
Bell -- not Simmons or Tatum -- has the best box plus-minus rating among rookies who have played more than 250 minutes. Bell was fortunate to land in the best possible situation for a rookie, joining the defending NBA champions at a position of need.

Within the context of that role, he's proven exceptionally versatile, pairing the above-the-rim finishing (72.2 percent shooting) and shot blocking (7.3 percent block rate, tops among rookies) the Warriors get from JaVale McGee with the high-post playmaking they get from David West (5.0 assists per 100 team plays, a rate better than the average shooting guard).

7. Lonzo Ball | PG | Los Angeles Lakers
Since I mentioned it in last week's discussion of the Lakers' young players, Ball has continued to improve his efficiency to the point where his many other skills can shine through. He ranks fifth among rookies in WARP, ahead of Bell (who rates far better on a per-minute basis) and Anunoby (whose defensive value is not fully reflected by box-score stats).

8. Kyle Kuzma | PF | Los Angeles Lakers
Having Kuzma this low will surely come as a surprise to most fans, particularly because he does rate well in terms of scoring efficiency.

As I noted last week, Kuzma has made little defensive impact in terms of steals and blocks, and according to NBA.com/Stats the Lakers are allowing 7.3 more points per 100 possessions with him on the court. So Kuzma's defensive RPM ranks last among power forwards by a wide margin.

9. Lauri Markkanen | PF | Chicago Bulls
After a fast start, "Lauri Bird" has made just 31.4 percent of his 3-pointers since the start of November, causing his efficiency to sink below league average. Markkanen's impressive-looking defensive rebounding is also largely a product of playing with center Robin Lopez, one of the NBA's best big men at boxing out and allowing teammates to secure the board. (Markkanen's defensive rebound percentage drops from 26.4 percent playing with Lopez to 19.5 percent without him, per NBA.com/Stats.)

Still, Markkanen's shooting ability gives him strong gravity, and he's proven surprisingly solid defensively. So he belongs in the top 10.

10. Bam Adebayo | C | Miami Heat
With apologies to international veterans Bogdan Bogdanovic and Maxi Kleber, the last spot in my top 10 goes to the Heat's rookie center.

Much like Collins, Adebayo has proven a powerful finisher. More than half of his field goals (28 of 49) have been dunks, according to Basketball-Reference.com. Adebayo has also shined defensively on switches, a skill that should serve him well as he expands his role.


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http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/21825051/kevin-pelton-ranking-lonzo-ball-jayson-tatum-top-10-nba-rookies-far
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EnySpree
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12/21/2017  7:41 PM
Uptown wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:If based on BPA, and the lakers don't trade D.Russell, then I agree with your top 2.

3. Boston - Kuzma
4. Phoenix - Ball
5. Kings - Fox
6. Orlando - Markannen
7. Chicago - D. Smith Jr.
8. NY - F. Ntilikina
9. Dallas - J. Isaac
10.Portland - J. Collins

If you are basing this on BPA, D. Mitchell would be a top 3 pick...

He didn't write it but you can assume he agrees with Mitchell and Tatum going 1-2

You know why I'm here....
BRIGGS
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12/21/2017  7:53 PM
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
Knixkik wrote:1. Philly- Mitchell- this guy is exactly what they were hoping for in Fultz and is the ideal combo guard to play off of someone like Simmons. (they shouldn't have traded for this pick, but that's another story.)
2. LA- Tatum- Much better shooter and defender than we all thought.
3. Boston- J. Collins- young big man with upside. Would fit well next to Horford.
4. Phoenix- Ball- Might not be a star, but will be a good PG for a long time.
5. Kings- Fox- probably still the right long-term pick at this point.
6. Orlando- Fultz- Huge question mark, but probably still a worthy gamble for a team in need of a franchise guard.
7. Chicago- Markannen- still a good pick.
8. New York- Ntilikina- i still think this pick turns out well. We see the upside.
9. Dallas- DSjr- He's been just okay, but still the right pick there.
10. Portland- Kuzma- Going to be a good scoring 4 for a long time.

I left out Isaac and Jackson. I have been watching Jackson and he doesn't seem to do anything above average. Amazing that some wanted to deal Porzingis for him. Also, Isaac has been hurt, but given the surprising start from some rookies, i just don't see him being a top 10 player. He has talent, but no real strong skill at this point in time.

Kuzma would have to be top 3.

He's been a top 3 rookie, but his perceived potential is still less than some of the younger guys. Hes older than porzingis for example. As good as he's been, no one thinks he's going to be a superstar or franchise player.


LOL you can believe what you want--Ill believe my eyes. Kuzma is a top 3 player and a potential franchise player in his own right. You know I was on J Collins way before anyone last year--hes going to be up there too but Kuzma was almost like drafting Paul Pierce.

Briggs you tend to really like whoever is hot. Kuzma is coming off some really big games and should continue to improve. But you are bordering on overrating him. He has come out of nowhere and has done a lot of his work against second units. He's not on the radar of defenses yet. He is getting whatever he wants. Teams will adjust. He will too I'm sure. But he's absolutely not what you are making him to be. But he's a very good player.

Where do people come up with this? Kuzma has been great all year??????

GustavBahler
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12/21/2017  8:23 PM
My money was on Ball, Tatum, Fulz, and Smith jr. to be the standouts of the draft. They were already top picks, so thats not surprising. Still believe Fulz is going to be scary once he puts in the time.
Swishfm3
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12/21/2017  9:21 PM
EnySpree wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:If based on BPA, and the lakers don't trade D.Russell, then I agree with your top 2.

3. Boston - Kuzma
4. Phoenix - Ball
5. Kings - Fox
6. Orlando - Markannen
7. Chicago - D. Smith Jr.
8. NY - F. Ntilikina
9. Dallas - J. Isaac
10.Portland - J. Collins

If you are basing this on BPA, D. Mitchell would be a top 3 pick...

He didn't write it but you can assume he agrees with Mitchell and Tatum going 1-2

This.

I agree with Knixkik top 2 which is why I left it off

meloshouldgo
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12/21/2017  11:50 PM
Uptown wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:If based on BPA, and the lakers don't trade D.Russell, then I agree with your top 2.

3. Boston - Kuzma
4. Phoenix - Ball
5. Kings - Fox
6. Orlando - Markannen
7. Chicago - D. Smith Jr.
8. NY - F. Ntilikina
9. Dallas - J. Isaac
10.Portland - J. Collins

If you are basing this on BPA, D. Mitchell would be a top 3 pick...

LOL @ DSJR going before Frank as BPA.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
Nalod
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12/22/2017  11:02 AM
I'll take Tatum's potential vs Kuzma.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
BigDaddyG
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12/22/2017  11:46 AM
Nalod wrote:I'll take Tatum's potential vs Kuzma.

Agreed. But Kuzma is top 5. He's done it off the bench and as a starter. Yeah, he's older than the other rookies, but that doesn't guarantee production. Look at other older rookies like McDermott. CleAnthony Early, Jerian Grant and Kaminsky. They were touted as guys who could contribute immediately and they all struggled. What Kuzma has done is amazing.
That said, Tatum's potential has been eye opening. This is a guy that everyone has scrutinized and pigeonholed as a one-dimensional iso-scorer. He's flipped the script and shown that he's more than capable of being of being high-level 3@D guy. And he's just scratching the surface. It's still early, but Ainge has done it again. You make your own luck... hopefully Perry can carry us to a similar situation.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Nalod
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12/22/2017  12:12 PM
Funny, Philly shytcan's Hinkie yet double down on talent and overpays for Fultz. Then the same crap happens to them regarding not being able to play a rookie due to injury.
Norlens, Embiid, Simmons and now fultz. OKa4 was ready but mentally not mature to handle the task. Just crazy.
Dennis Smith Jr has now missed 8 games this young season.
Frank is on the rise.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
fishmike
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12/22/2017  12:19 PM
Tatum and Frank will end up being the best players in this draft. Knick finally got lucky. You are watching the birth of a transcending player. Frank just needs to stay healthy. I wouldnt trade him for guard in that draft.
Melo is ranked 38 on defense. Probably one of the best PF defenders in the league -HofstraBBall (1/24/2018)
Nalod
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12/22/2017  12:21 PM
fishmike wrote:Tatum and Frank will end up being the best players in this draft. Knick finally got lucky. You are watching the birth of a transcending player. Frank just needs to stay healthy. I wouldnt trade him for guard in that draft.

Sounds like you and Nixluva spent the night together!!!

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Just for fun: Rookie re-draft so far...

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