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2003+ Pistons... our blue print for success
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fishmike
Posts: 47945
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
12/16/2017  3:09 PM
They did it with smothering defense. They shut down teams loaded with firepower. On offense they had skilled players all around that played team basketball.

They were able to always have 3-4 top flight defenders on the floor at a time:
Sheed
Ben Wallace
Billups
Prince

This allowed other guys who were average but willing defenders to be more effective as they simply had to do less. Good cagey vets would fall under this category as well.
McDyess
Lindsy Hunter
Darvin Ham

You had big guys out there that dominated the glass
Elden Campbel
Okur
Darko

You had some crafty offensive players you could hide a bit
Rip Hamilton

Easy to see this starts at the top with those four players who were exceptional defenders.

When the Knicks are playing well, and we have certainly seen plenty of it this year we follow a similar formula:
Defenders:
Sheed - KP
Ben Wallace - KOQ
Billups - Frank
Prince - Lance

The Willing and able crew:
THjr, McBuckets, Baker, Lee

Guys who fit other needs we essentially cover for:
Jack
Beasley

Now... it doesnt take an NBA genius to see this squad is woefully behind those Piston teams from a simple talent standpoint, but I think the roles we are seeing are very similar. Det ran Rip and Prince off tons of screens while Sheed and Billups were killer from outside. Big Ben was an underrated passer and set bruising picks and was a premier offensive rebounder as well. Point is their offense like ours now was not star centric, rather it was based around skilled players that move the ball and find someone a high % shot.

As for defense there is a chance for a special combo here. In this era of position-less basketball if KP/Frank can stay healthy its feasible we could have two of the best defensive players in the league, and that is worth building around. We already see the value of size next to KP in Kanter, and when the Knicks have their best perimeter D around KP and Kanter he has little to do but clog the lane, crash boards, set picks and very occasionally help. Simple point is the less he's asked to do the better he is on that side of the ball.

I like what Jeff is doing on offense. Move around, cut hard, screen hard, the ball will find you open. On defense if Frank and KP stay reasonably healthy we could have the foundation for a top flight defense built around a PG who can lock down 3 positions and a PF who is the league's best shot blocker. Thats the dream. How do you get there?

I think the key is you focus on how you can get the other two guys. Some say a bit more tanking. Others say clean some house so we can enter the FA pool. Some agree with what appears to be an incremental approach in continuing to stay young but get better as well by bringing in guys who are middle tier types like Kanter, McD and THjr, while embracing guys like Lance and Lee over just playing youth. The argument against the incremental approach seems to be its a path to mediocrity. Good enough to get in every year, not good enough to compete. Like the Steve Smith Mookie Blaylock Hawks, or the Vince Carter Nets... you get the idea.

Can we afford to use some combo of Lee/Lance/McBuckets/KOQ to get an asset or long term potential fit in here? Are we bringing McD back? Have to figure we are NOT giving KOQ the $10mm ish he's prob fetch on the open market. The full MLE at worst. So what's our plan there? We are a fringe playoff team. How important is that goal?

Lots of questions and none are easy. Perception matters in many ways. So does winning. This team plays hard. Undercutting their effort with a trade that gets a pick but hurts our club house might not be worth that asset after all. Momentum is real thing. Until its not.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
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Gudris
Posts: 20721
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/12/2015
Member: #6213

12/16/2017  4:03 PM
it is impossible to repeat someones path, because it is impossible to repeat the same conditions
EnySpree
Posts: 44204
Alba Posts: 138
Joined: 4/18/2003
Member: #397

12/16/2017  6:02 PM
Gudris wrote:it is impossible to repeat someones path, because it is impossible to repeat the same conditions

Thats all you got from Fishs post?

You know why I'm here....
Marv
Posts: 34105
Alba Posts: 69
Joined: 9/2/2002
Member: #315
12/16/2017  7:18 PM
fishmike wrote:They did it with smothering defense. They shut down teams loaded with firepower. On offense they had skilled players all around that played team basketball.

They were able to always have 3-4 top flight defenders on the floor at a time:
Sheed
Ben Wallace
Billups
Prince

This allowed other guys who were average but willing defenders to be more effective as they simply had to do less. Good cagey vets would fall under this category as well.
McDyess
Lindsy Hunter
Darvin Ham

You had big guys out there that dominated the glass
Elden Campbel
Okur
Darko

You had some crafty offensive players you could hide a bit
Rip Hamilton

Easy to see this starts at the top with those four players who were exceptional defenders.

When the Knicks are playing well, and we have certainly seen plenty of it this year we follow a similar formula:
Defenders:
Sheed - KP
Ben Wallace - KOQ
Billups - Frank
Prince - Lance

The Willing and able crew:
THjr, McBuckets, Baker, Lee

Guys who fit other needs we essentially cover for:
Jack
Beasley

Now... it doesnt take an NBA genius to see this squad is woefully behind those Piston teams from a simple talent standpoint, but I think the roles we are seeing are very similar. Det ran Rip and Prince off tons of screens while Sheed and Billups were killer from outside. Big Ben was an underrated passer and set bruising picks and was a premier offensive rebounder as well. Point is their offense like ours now was not star centric, rather it was based around skilled players that move the ball and find someone a high % shot.

As for defense there is a chance for a special combo here. In this era of position-less basketball if KP/Frank can stay healthy its feasible we could have two of the best defensive players in the league, and that is worth building around. We already see the value of size next to KP in Kanter, and when the Knicks have their best perimeter D around KP and Kanter he has little to do but clog the lane, crash boards, set picks and very occasionally help. Simple point is the less he's asked to do the better he is on that side of the ball.

I like what Jeff is doing on offense. Move around, cut hard, screen hard, the ball will find you open. On defense if Frank and KP stay reasonably healthy we could have the foundation for a top flight defense built around a PG who can lock down 3 positions and a PF who is the league's best shot blocker. Thats the dream. How do you get there?

I think the key is you focus on how you can get the other two guys. Some say a bit more tanking. Others say clean some house so we can enter the FA pool. Some agree with what appears to be an incremental approach in continuing to stay young but get better as well by bringing in guys who are middle tier types like Kanter, McD and THjr, while embracing guys like Lance and Lee over just playing youth. The argument against the incremental approach seems to be its a path to mediocrity. Good enough to get in every year, not good enough to compete. Like the Steve Smith Mookie Blaylock Hawks, or the Vince Carter Nets... you get the idea.

Can we afford to use some combo of Lee/Lance/McBuckets/KOQ to get an asset or long term potential fit in here? Are we bringing McD back? Have to figure we are NOT giving KOQ the $10mm ish he's prob fetch on the open market. The full MLE at worst. So what's our plan there? We are a fringe playoff team. How important is that goal?

Lots of questions and none are easy. Perception matters in many ways. So does winning. This team plays hard. Undercutting their effort with a trade that gets a pick but hurts our club house might not be worth that asset after all. Momentum is real thing. Until its not.

damn fish hope you're feeling better - figure the only way you had time for a post like this is you got trapped on the can for an extra hour . . .

btw major lol at this

You had big guys out there that dominated the glass
Elden Campbel
Okur
Darko

i think u meant this:

u had big soft euros that would have tied for first place in fred weiss impersonation contests:

darko - billy

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2003+ Pistons... our blue print for success

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