[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Is a smaller more versatile center better for a team with KP?
Author Thread
Knixkik
Posts: 29555
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
12/12/2017  10:46 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I watched golden state last night and they inserted Jordan bell into starting line up. A bit undersized but he did everything if not more( both sides) than what any of our centers can do as well. Pick 36 making 800 k and doing the job just as well as any of our multi millionaires

Second round picks don't matter, remember? Isn't that the justification people have used when we've traded ours away in foolish trades? And to think that Bell (or a Frank Mason) would've been in our range had we kept our 2017 second round pick in this past draft.

2nd round picks matter, but we should be able to purchase them easily, as GS did to get Bell. That being said, this year we have the Bulls pick (which is basically a late 1st) and another 2nd round pick, so this year we should be able to build our backend roster depth if we use them right. In my opinion, this draft will be one of our most critical in recent franchise history. If we land a good player in the mid 1st round, and at least 1 future rotation player in the 2nd round, we will have a chance to take a huge step forward from within. If we misfire, it will be a problem.

AUTOADVERT
NardDogNation
Posts: 26734
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

12/12/2017  11:05 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I watched golden state last night and they inserted Jordan bell into starting line up. A bit undersized but he did everything if not more( both sides) than what any of our centers can do as well. Pick 36 making 800 k and doing the job just as well as any of our multi millionaires

Second round picks don't matter, remember? Isn't that the justification people have used when we've traded ours away in foolish trades? And to think that Bell (or a Frank Mason) would've been in our range had we kept our 2017 second round pick in this past draft.

Golden State bought that pick?

Dude, I know. I'm just trying to point out that all picks are consequential in a draft, yet many posters here would deride the value of 2nd round picks and support any goofy trade we make that sends them away. Had we had our 2nd round picks the past few years, guys like Malcolm Brogdon, NIKOLA JOKIC, Josh Richardson, Tyler Ulis and Richaun Holmes could've been Knicks. Our rebuild would have been in a completely different place had we kept those picks and selected some of the aforementioned talent. Instead, we got the privilege to watch Marcus Camby, Raymond Felton, Andrea Bargnani, Travis Outlaw and the like be completel useless for us.

NardDogNation
Posts: 26734
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

12/12/2017  11:11 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/12/2017  11:34 AM
Knixkik wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I watched golden state last night and they inserted Jordan bell into starting line up. A bit undersized but he did everything if not more( both sides) than what any of our centers can do as well. Pick 36 making 800 k and doing the job just as well as any of our multi millionaires

Second round picks don't matter, remember? Isn't that the justification people have used when we've traded ours away in foolish trades? And to think that Bell (or a Frank Mason) would've been in our range had we kept our 2017 second round pick in this past draft.

2nd round picks matter, but we should be able to purchase them easily, as GS did to get Bell. That being said, this year we have the Bulls pick (which is basically a late 1st) and another 2nd round pick, so this year we should be able to build our backend roster depth if we use them right. In my opinion, this draft will be one of our most critical in recent franchise history. If we land a good player in the mid 1st round, and at least 1 future rotation player in the 2nd round, we will have a chance to take a huge step forward from within. If we misfire, it will be a problem.

It still is a major issue that we only have three second round picks (VIA OTHER TEAMS) from now until 2021. It bothers me that we need to purchase second rounders just to reach the floor asset base for normal functioning teams. At the end of the day, every decision made comes with an opportunity cost and having to spend that $5 million to re-acquire inferior picks means we can't utilize that money to address other issues which still effectively handicaps us.

fishmike
Posts: 48783
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
12/12/2017  11:30 AM
BRIGGS wrote:I watched golden state last night and they inserted Jordan bell into starting line up. A bit undersized but he did everything if not more( both sides) than what any of our centers can do as well. Pick 36 making 800 k and doing the job just as well as any of our multi millionaires
Oh bull****. You cant tell the difference that playing with the best in the NBA vs. playing Lee/McBuckets and KP? This is why overpaying role players from winning teams is always a fail. Players look good next to stars. But you see 2 minutes of good play and your sold so there is always the Briggs sample size to take into account.

No wonder your always right. You literally cover every angle.
start threads saying we should target Kanter? got a couple of years of those.. check
say we should get an 800k instead of our multimillionaires?... check

The goal is simply better players. Go find the next Ben Wallace or Draymond Green.

technomaster
Posts: 22202
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 6/30/2003
Member: #426
USA
12/12/2017  11:32 AM
I think every team needs a Draymond Green clone. :) At the moment I don't think there's anyone even close. The guy can do everything, even dribble the ball up and distribute like a PG for stretches (7.3apg this season!). Not taking too much away from his greatness, but having other great players around him (particularly on offense) makes everything he does seem easy.

I think Kanter brings several elite skills (post scoring, rebounding) that would be tough to replace. And he seemingly continues to improve at other areas. You might even argue that the impact of Kanter's 2 main strengths counterbalances the impact of Green's all-around game. This season to date, Kanter's averaging 60%fg, 92%ft whaaaa!!!, 10.3rpg in less than 26mpg. I didn't realize the free throw excellence until just now! Wow.

Of course, let's be clear, Green is one of the very elite players in the NBA and the more realistic replacements suggested so far (Randle, Gordon?!) don't seem like improvements over Kanter. KP would do well with a big man that can really pass.


Ironically, I think Joakim Noah would be a pretty great center to play alongside KP, if we could rationalize giving him the minutes. Isn't passing the signature skill of Noah, along with his high motor, strong D and rebounding?

Kevin Dolorico | "That was two, two from the heart." - John Starks
newyorknewyork
Posts: 27945
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
12/12/2017  11:54 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:Can Aaron Gordon fit the bill? I think he is only 6"9' and not particularly lengthy but I've been under the impression that he'd compliment Kristaps exceedingly well. AG is basically a Swiss-Army knife at that spot and I could see him being something of a poor man's Draymond Green. The only real concern I'd have of him is his tendency to be a weak rebounder from his position. That aside, he would have been a guy I maxed this offseason if we had the money and were not so stacked at the 4/5 spots.

This has been Gordon's break out year. He is gonna command max money. Question is has he settled in at PF? No way Orlando lets him walk though.

Side note he looks just like Aaron Judge and would have a field day here with that. Said in the off season he was gonna come to NY to pretend to be Judge.

I'm still not entirely sure what the new front office's agenda is. They just drafted Jonathan Isaac and I wonder if they view him as a piece next to Gordon or one to supplant him. IMO, those two fit well together at the 4 and 5 but I obviously don't run the team. And if I were as futile as they are, would I want to continue adding salary before figuring out if this core is even worth keeping around? That's why I'd be willing to play chicken with them and max Gordon early to test their resolve because there is some possibility they waiver under that pressure.

As for Aaron Judge, holy ****, lol. I hope Gordon is aware of how much they look alike and dresses up as Judge for Halloween or vice-versa.

Orlando stole some of the Bucks front office people. They are very much into position less bball and hybrid forwards. I think they had every intention of keeping Gordan and Isaac hoping for a hybrid forward combination. Or gave them play small ball 4-5 as you mention.

I could see them moving on for Elfrid though looking for better shooting. Fournier, Simmons, Isaac, Gordan give them a lot of length on the wing. They have Ross as well.

Nalod
Posts: 55720
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
12/12/2017  12:41 PM
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I watched golden state last night and they inserted Jordan bell into starting line up. A bit undersized but he did everything if not more( both sides) than what any of our centers can do as well. Pick 36 making 800 k and doing the job just as well as any of our multi millionaires
Oh bull****. You cant tell the difference that playing with the best in the NBA vs. playing Lee/McBuckets and KP? This is why overpaying role players from winning teams is always a fail. Players look good next to stars. But you see 2 minutes of good play and your sold so there is always the Briggs sample size to take into account.

No wonder your always right. You literally cover every angle.
start threads saying we should target Kanter? got a couple of years of those.. check
say we should get an 800k instead of our multimillionaires?... check

The goal is simply better players. Go find the next Ben Wallace or Draymond Green.

And feed them CHicken and Fish!!!

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Uptown
Posts: 26663
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 4/1/2008
Member: #1883

12/12/2017  1:05 PM
If we move Kanter, who ever we put at the 5 needs to be a monster on the boards to make up for the lack of rebounding from KP.
Knixkik
Posts: 29555
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
12/12/2017  1:12 PM
Uptown wrote:If we move Kanter, who ever we put at the 5 needs to be a monster on the boards to make up for the lack of rebounding from KP.

We will also need someone who isn't afraid to mix it up and wears his heart on his sleeve the way Kanter does. His energy is infectious. In most circumstances, it will be tough to replace his combination of energy, rebounding, finishing, and overall toughness that fires up his teammates and fans.

Bonn1997
Posts: 58594
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
12/12/2017  1:21 PM
Uptown wrote:If we move Kanter, who ever we put at the 5 needs to be a monster on the boards to make up for the lack of rebounding from KP.

Is KP a bad rebounder or is he just letting Kanter and KOQ grab extra boards whenever there's an instance where either one could grab the ball? I remember people thinking KP was a great rebounder and Rolo was a bad one early in KP's rookie year.
Paris907
Posts: 21140
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/4/2015
Member: #6099
USA
12/12/2017  4:13 PM
Unless his name is Cowens or Rodman I’d take a pass. With Rudi G, Boogie, Towns, Embiid among others, the lost value of a 5 is greatly exaggerated. I’d take Begley, Bamba or Ayers over Kanter in a NY minute.
TripleThreat
Posts: 21858
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

12/12/2017  4:53 PM
Knixkik wrote:2nd round picks matter, but we should be able to purchase them easily, as GS did to get Bell.


Yes. And No at the exact same time.

The Warriors were able to use their entire 3.5 million dollar allotment because they are not making trades. They have a deep and stacked roster. They are in the repeater tax zone, so they spent on depth. They don't have international guys they are trying to buy out of their non US/non NBA contracts.

Most teams need their allotment to facilitate the salary matching issues in trades. Also many teams have to consider stashes they have in other non NBA leagues they need to buy out.

If a team has a high 2nd round pick, odds are, they aren't trading it. Bottom barrel 2nd rounders, where the difference between the last few guys drafted and the class of UDFAs is pretty narrow.

As more teams are going into the tax zone ( and the last two offseasons of big spending is doing just that) the value of 2nd round picks INCREASES. They don't need to be given any guaranteed money, at all. First round picks have their first two years of slotted salary guaranteed. Contender level squads and tax paying teams will want 2nd rounders, thus teams will compete for them.

If the Knicks can buy a pick in the 2nd round, they will either have to give up a real asset to get a high one, OR they will buy a pick when the market consensus is there is no one left worth taking. Otherwise the team with the pick will take the player themselves.

The reasons the Knicks want something is the SAME REASON another team will want to keep it.

The reasons why the non Knicks team might trade it is the SAME REASON why the Knicks will likely find no value in the pick placement.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
knicks1248
Posts: 37415
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
12/12/2017  5:23 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:You would want a versatile more mobile guy in the rotation absolutely. Need to have both options. Don't know if Maye is or isn't that guy, but ideally yea.

His face looks like he is Kevin Loves brother in this highlight.

I think we have three picks again. My hope is we can trade one or BOTH of Kanter and Lee for cap space and a pick--even if that pick 20-25. I dont think were going to get any of the guys at the absolute top--so Im hoping a PG that we may want is there(10 or lower)

After that--we need a 3 and 4/5. Im looking more at guys that I think might fit the Knicks than what the draft experts might think. Maye has been off the radar a bit but playing really well and I think youre not far off with the K love comparison.

Why on earth would you want to trade the heart and soul, the most productive efficient players on the roster for cap space. After you have establish chemistry, and building a culture, you want to up and trade players for the hell of it.

some of you have to realize dudes need to be on the same timeline in order for it to work. It's bad enough Kp has to wait for frank and willy to catch up (they're atleast 2 yrs behind) you want to keep adding younger and younger players for what.

ES
NardDogNation
Posts: 26734
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

12/12/2017  6:05 PM
Uptown wrote:If we move Kanter, who ever we put at the 5 needs to be a monster on the boards to make up for the lack of rebounding from KP.

For every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore longer shots (due to an uptick in 3 point shooting) means longer rebounds. Where we should look to improve then is our rebounding at the guard position, more than anything else.

NardDogNation
Posts: 26734
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

12/12/2017  6:13 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:Can Aaron Gordon fit the bill? I think he is only 6"9' and not particularly lengthy but I've been under the impression that he'd compliment Kristaps exceedingly well. AG is basically a Swiss-Army knife at that spot and I could see him being something of a poor man's Draymond Green. The only real concern I'd have of him is his tendency to be a weak rebounder from his position. That aside, he would have been a guy I maxed this offseason if we had the money and were not so stacked at the 4/5 spots.

This has been Gordon's break out year. He is gonna command max money. Question is has he settled in at PF? No way Orlando lets him walk though.

Side note he looks just like Aaron Judge and would have a field day here with that. Said in the off season he was gonna come to NY to pretend to be Judge.

I'm still not entirely sure what the new front office's agenda is. They just drafted Jonathan Isaac and I wonder if they view him as a piece next to Gordon or one to supplant him. IMO, those two fit well together at the 4 and 5 but I obviously don't run the team. And if I were as futile as they are, would I want to continue adding salary before figuring out if this core is even worth keeping around? That's why I'd be willing to play chicken with them and max Gordon early to test their resolve because there is some possibility they waiver under that pressure.

As for Aaron Judge, holy ****, lol. I hope Gordon is aware of how much they look alike and dresses up as Judge for Halloween or vice-versa.

Orlando stole some of the Bucks front office people. They are very much into position less bball and hybrid forwards. I think they had every intention of keeping Gordan and Isaac hoping for a hybrid forward combination. Or gave them play small ball 4-5 as you mention.

I could see them moving on for Elfrid though looking for better shooting. Fournier, Simmons, Isaac, Gordan give them a lot of length on the wing. They have Ross as well.

They are also very much into finding big men that can work with their back to the basket (see Greg Monroe). And right now they have a supped up version of that who just figured out how to consistently hit 3s in Nikola Vucevic. They are a pretty tricky situation and it'll be interesting to see how everything gets resolved. Do they add money to a losing roster or look to hit restart on their rebuild? Because if they do the latter, I don't know how they keep veterans like Gordon and lose enough games to avoid being on a threadmill.

knickstorrents
Posts: 21032
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/23/2010
Member: #3050
Hong Kong
12/12/2017  7:43 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Uptown wrote:If we move Kanter, who ever we put at the 5 needs to be a monster on the boards to make up for the lack of rebounding from KP.

Is KP a bad rebounder or is he just letting Kanter and KOQ grab extra boards whenever there's an instance where either one could grab the ball? I remember people thinking KP was a great rebounder and Rolo was a bad one early in KP's rookie year.

My guess is because he's a good help defender he's usually out of position for rebounds.

Rose is not the answer.
Jmpasq
Posts: 23404
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/10/2012
Member: #4182

12/14/2017  5:35 AM
knickstorrents wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Uptown wrote:If we move Kanter, who ever we put at the 5 needs to be a monster on the boards to make up for the lack of rebounding from KP.

Is KP a bad rebounder or is he just letting Kanter and KOQ grab extra boards whenever there's an instance where either one could grab the ball? I remember people thinking KP was a great rebounder and Rolo was a bad one early in KP's rookie year.

My guess is because he's a good help defender he's usually out of position for rebounds.

thats some of it for sure and you don't want to take that away

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
Bonn1997
Posts: 58594
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
12/14/2017  5:49 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
knickstorrents wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Uptown wrote:If we move Kanter, who ever we put at the 5 needs to be a monster on the boards to make up for the lack of rebounding from KP.

Is KP a bad rebounder or is he just letting Kanter and KOQ grab extra boards whenever there's an instance where either one could grab the ball? I remember people thinking KP was a great rebounder and Rolo was a bad one early in KP's rookie year.

My guess is because he's a good help defender he's usually out of position for rebounds.

thats some of it for sure and you don't want to take that away


Also, his offensive rebounds are lower because he's usually farther from the basket than most PF/Cs.
Cartman718
Posts: 26008
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/12/2007
Member: #1694

12/14/2017  9:28 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Uptown wrote:If we move Kanter, who ever we put at the 5 needs to be a monster on the boards to make up for the lack of rebounding from KP.

Is KP a bad rebounder or is he just letting Kanter and KOQ grab extra boards whenever there's an instance where either one could grab the ball? I remember people thinking KP was a great rebounder and Rolo was a bad one early in KP's rookie year.

KP is not being asked to expend energy on rebounding, presumably because he is not there yet in terms of stamina. I don't think right now he could play 40-43 mins efficiently in a game....and yet when the time is right, that's what superstars do and are expected to do. He needs more strength training. He has not yet mastered having a much shorter much stronger defender on him and simply shooting over them. He does that well with people he can push around a little bit. I think he needs an even stronger base and core.
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
martin
Posts: 47491
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
12/14/2017  10:58 AM
Cartman718 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Uptown wrote:If we move Kanter, who ever we put at the 5 needs to be a monster on the boards to make up for the lack of rebounding from KP.

Is KP a bad rebounder or is he just letting Kanter and KOQ grab extra boards whenever there's an instance where either one could grab the ball? I remember people thinking KP was a great rebounder and Rolo was a bad one early in KP's rookie year.

KP is not being asked to expend energy on rebounding, presumably because he is not there yet in terms of stamina. I don't think right now he could play 40-43 mins efficiently in a game....and yet when the time is right, that's what superstars do and are expected to do. He needs more strength training. He has not yet mastered having a much shorter much stronger defender on him and simply shooting over them. He does that well with people he can push around a little bit. I think he needs an even stronger base and core.

Remember that one game where he played 40 minutes, shot 14-26, 5-8 from downtown, 5 blocks, 37 points, 11 rebounds and carried the Knicks to a win on national television?

It was like 2 days ago.

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
Is a smaller more versatile center better for a team with KP?

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.com All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.