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Give Me Your Ntilikina Evaluation
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GustavBahler
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12/11/2017  12:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/11/2017  12:17 PM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:I love the "I still dont think he's worth the 8th pick" crowd still clinging to their draft night drama about how we this will hurt us for years, or how Cuban somehow influenced us to take him so they could get Dennis Smith. So funny. Classic KNick fans.

Its funny how people think he's got offensive issues. He doesnt. Its not even confidence. Its smarts. He's 19. He's working on helping the team WIN, not showing the world how good a scorer he is or can. He's already done that. You all have heard of the McDonalds all American game with the best U18 prospects in the country? Well if there was a tourney like that and everyone played in it it would be the U18 Euros where Frank was MVP.

If you need a refresher about what kind of player Frank will be on offense, and why he was a lottery pick you can see that here:

This is no "raw" athletic prospect. This is a highly skilled young player.

Frank is not limited offensively. He will be just fine. You must remember his culture and where/how he played last year. He's all about zero mistakes and being an impact on defense. That is his role right now. I could not ask more of this kid. He will take more shots when he's believed he's earned them. Now there's a concept!

How many guards are better defensively in the NBA than Frank right now? Honest question. I mean we drafted a kid who's got the chops to be one of, if not THE best defensive guards in the league and this isnt worth the 8th pick?

I have no buyer's regret. I would take Frank again if I got a redo with Mitchell being choice #2.

I think we have a cornerstone player who can anchor a defense on the perimeter and set up teammates. Thats a role player? Maybe a triangle player?

My little favorite thing Frank does? When defenders extend their arm/hand out on defense and he slaps it away. Gets me every time

Thats some serious revisionism. Please dont even try.....

when is it appropriate to revise? When you have more data. What do you think I am revising though?

When you say that Frank didnt have a confidence issue, sounds a lot like "It was the old pretending to hesitate, deer in the headlights, trick."

Until recently, Frank clearly was hesitant to go to the rim (bottom of the league) just like he was in France, to a lesser extent. Frank wasn't going against grown men in the McDonalds game.

Frank is 19, but that consideration, can only go so far. Lots and lots of 19 year olds who can drive. Frank of course has qualities that many 19 year olds dont have. Most of the criticism of Frank was fair, and echoed by his own coaches.

I dont blame anyone for having some fun with those who already declared him a bust (not myself) but going back and saying that this was all part of Frank's plan? Cmon Fish. You just had to watch him play.

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knickstorrents
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12/11/2017  12:59 PM
Frank was handing off the ball too early vs. Atlanta and was too hesitant on drives. But he was pretty good defensively, and those France highlights do show that he can be aggressive. Give him some time to acclimate to the speed and physicality of the NBA. Stay the course. Winning a championship is a marathon not a sprint.
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knicks1248
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12/11/2017  1:23 PM
He is not going to be a scoring pg at any point in his career, He will definitely be more balance, im thinking a George hill/shawn Livingston type. it also depends on the system he is in, the players on the roster, and the coaching staff.
ES
WaltLongmire
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12/11/2017  1:42 PM
Besides being only 19, it is also clear that in terms of physical development he was behind most of the players in the draft.

I see him on the sideline and look at his face and body and sometimes think about how it is easy it is to imagine him playing on a New York City HS team at this very moment.

Physically, he is the equivalent of KP as a rookie. KP still has a way to go in terms of strength, but you can already see him filling out and showing more toughness as a player. The same will happen with Frank.

You already know 2 things about Frank...

1) He can play D...but more importantly, he wants to play D.

2) He is a pass-first PG, who has yet to develop a "selfish" attitude that all the great PGs flash at times when their teams need them.

You have seen him become more relaxed as a jump shooter, yet even now you can almost see him thinking of the shot, and usually passing on it, even though those of us who are watching the games see them as good shots to take.

You have seen him go to the basket more often, BUT he still seems to go to the basket thinking pass first, and not looking to score and THEN passing off after his sees his shot is not there.

He still gets caught up making those foolish high post entry passes to KP...just like Baker and other PGs last year used to do with Melo. It becomes too automatic and teams anticipate and steal the pass. Very frustrating, but it has as much to do with what Hornacek wants to do as anything else. I hate having KP get the ball 20 ft from the basket and having him do the Melo 1/1 thing- makes no sense to me.


I still think many folks around here are missing the boat around here, and if you look at the youngest guards in the draft, he holds up pretty well in comparison even though many of them have played more minutes.

Time will tell all, but down the road, most around here will feel differently about Ntilikina once he fully matures.

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Uptown
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12/11/2017  1:59 PM
Frank is a system-oriented guard and I see now why phil wanted to draft him. Calling him a system-oriented gaurd is not knock, it just is what it is. He is a ball mover...Frank rarely if ever will improvise or break a play because he see's something he can exploit in the defense; whether it be taking a weak defender one on one, PNR, getting into the teeth of the defense for a drive and kick or drive and draw two defenders and drop it off to a big or even nailing a floater which is a shot all point guards must have in their bag of tricks.

Frank may never be that guy that will lives in the paint and thats fine depending on the type of team he has around him. One strength he does have is he is disruptive on the defensive end. Defense is definitely his calling card and a big piece to have when trying to build a winner. I feel like if Frank is going to be the future at the point, we may need another playmaker to play alongside him at the 2 or 3....But all in all, he's progressing...

martin
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12/11/2017  2:17 PM
Uptown wrote:Frank is a system-oriented guard and I see now why phil wanted to draft him. Calling him a system-oriented gaurd is not knock, it just is what it is. He is a ball mover...Frank rarely if ever will improvise or break a play because he see's something he can exploit in the defense; whether it be taking a weak defender one on one, PNR, getting into the teeth of the defense for a drive and kick or drive and draw two defenders and drop it off to a big or even nailing a floater which is a shot all point guards must have in their bag of tricks.

Frank may never be that guy that will lives in the paint and thats fine depending on the type of team he has around him. One strength he does have is he is disruptive on the defensive end. Defense is definitely his calling card and a big piece to have when trying to build a winner. I feel like if Frank is going to be the future at the point, we may need another playmaker to play alongside him at the 2 or 3....But all in all, he's progressing...

My opinion is a tweak on the above. Frank has so far grown up in a system-oriented environment and has yet to break out of the mold. I feel like he has enough capabilities to get to rim, break out of system and do his own thing but is still acclimating to NBA, his own abilities/body and years of having to ONLY run the plays the coach calls for. He will never be an explosive guard ala Wall, Lillard, etc. but has enough to make him dangerous off the dribble. Next 2 years will be very telling about the rest of his career. If he doesn't come back from Summer with at least 1 big change in game, then we should be worries.

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WaltLongmire
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12/11/2017  2:26 PM
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:Frank is a system-oriented guard and I see now why phil wanted to draft him. Calling him a system-oriented gaurd is not knock, it just is what it is. He is a ball mover...Frank rarely if ever will improvise or break a play because he see's something he can exploit in the defense; whether it be taking a weak defender one on one, PNR, getting into the teeth of the defense for a drive and kick or drive and draw two defenders and drop it off to a big or even nailing a floater which is a shot all point guards must have in their bag of tricks.

Frank may never be that guy that will lives in the paint and thats fine depending on the type of team he has around him. One strength he does have is he is disruptive on the defensive end. Defense is definitely his calling card and a big piece to have when trying to build a winner. I feel like if Frank is going to be the future at the point, we may need another playmaker to play alongside him at the 2 or 3....But all in all, he's progressing...

My opinion is a tweak on the above. Frank has so far grown up in a system-oriented environment and has yet to break out of the mold. I feel like he has enough capabilities to get to rim, break out of system and do his own thing but is still acclimating to NBA, his own abilities/body and years of having to ONLY run the plays the coach calls for. He will never be an explosive guard ala Wall, Lillard, etc. but has enough to make him dangerous off the dribble. Next 2 years will be very telling about the rest of his career. If he doesn't come back from Summer with at least 1 big change in game, then we should be worries.


Needs a good floater and has to make better use of the backboard at times.

Maybe Clyde can work with him on posting up smaller guards from the 5-10 ft range.

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martin
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12/11/2017  2:32 PM
I like this:

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martin
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12/11/2017  2:34 PM
Draymond Green came into the league at 22. Was AWFUL offensively. At 23 averaged 6.2PPG playing 20 minutes a game while shooting ~41%.
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newyorknewyork
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12/11/2017  2:39 PM
Uptown wrote:Frank is a system-oriented guard and I see now why phil wanted to draft him. Calling him a system-oriented gaurd is not knock, it just is what it is. He is a ball mover...Frank rarely if ever will improvise or break a play because he see's something he can exploit in the defense; whether it be taking a weak defender one on one, PNR, getting into the teeth of the defense for a drive and kick or drive and draw two defenders and drop it off to a big or even nailing a floater which is a shot all point guards must have in their bag of tricks.

Frank may never be that guy that will lives in the paint and thats fine depending on the type of team he has around him. One strength he does have is he is disruptive on the defensive end. Defense is definitely his calling card and a big piece to have when trying to build a winner. I feel like if Frank is going to be the future at the point, we may need another playmaker to play alongside him at the 2 or 3....But all in all, he's progressing...

What I always liked about Frank as a prospect though is that he could probably play in any system. And play multiple positions with that system as he matures. You look at the funky lineups GS is throwing out there or other NBA teams are throwing out there. And players like Frank are what the new MBA is gonna be all about . He can offer a lot of flexibility. Dennis Shroerder is a good PG in this league. But in the end there is only one way you could really utilize him. Same for Jeff Teague prior.

Dating back to since he was 17. He has played pro ball vs grown men. In an environment where young players don't get burn as head coaches are looking to win. A game that differs from the American style of game. So he is doing probably doing what coach ask him to do in order to get playing time because that's what he knows to do based off his pro experience in France. Play conservative to avoid mistakes so that coach doesn't lose patience and takes away his PT.

Eventually Frank will be a veteran on the team. Where he is no longer the young guy trying to earn the respect of his older vets and coaches. Where he has built up equity. Where he is also physically up to par with his comp. I could see him completely come out of his shell when this happens.

Usually it's the opposite where a kid has been the star of his team since middle school/high school. Where he was the more physically gifted player. Who has to learn to play a role in the beginning and learn how to play without having high usage.

WaltLongmire
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12/11/2017  2:44 PM
martin wrote:I like this:

Knicks' fans...patience...That is asking a lot of many of us.

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BigDaddyG
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12/11/2017  2:53 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:Frank is a system-oriented guard and I see now why phil wanted to draft him. Calling him a system-oriented gaurd is not knock, it just is what it is. He is a ball mover...Frank rarely if ever will improvise or break a play because he see's something he can exploit in the defense; whether it be taking a weak defender one on one, PNR, getting into the teeth of the defense for a drive and kick or drive and draw two defenders and drop it off to a big or even nailing a floater which is a shot all point guards must have in their bag of tricks.

Frank may never be that guy that will lives in the paint and thats fine depending on the type of team he has around him. One strength he does have is he is disruptive on the defensive end. Defense is definitely his calling card and a big piece to have when trying to build a winner. I feel like if Frank is going to be the future at the point, we may need another playmaker to play alongside him at the 2 or 3....But all in all, he's progressing...

My opinion is a tweak on the above. Frank has so far grown up in a system-oriented environment and has yet to break out of the mold. I feel like he has enough capabilities to get to rim, break out of system and do his own thing but is still acclimating to NBA, his own abilities/body and years of having to ONLY run the plays the coach calls for. He will never be an explosive guard ala Wall, Lillard, etc. but has enough to make him dangerous off the dribble. Next 2 years will be very telling about the rest of his career. If he doesn't come back from Summer with at least 1 big change in game, then we should be worries.


Needs a good floater and has to make better use of the backboard at times.

Maybe Clyde can work with him on posting up smaller guards from the 5-10 ft range.


Frank has shown a floater in Europe and he attempted one last night. The more the season goes on, the more elements of his game come up. I'd like to see him develop a post game against smaller guys to. But as you mentioned earlier, a lot of that will be speed up by is physical development. He's still going against men, regardless of how small they are. Some of these guys, even "scrubs" have had year to get their body ready for the NBA level.
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GustavBahler
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12/11/2017  2:58 PM
martin wrote:I like this:

This tweet conflates numbers with aggresiveness. Its not Frank's PPG thats an issue, its Frank passing on many opportunities to score. Most of those players werent PGs either. More important for a PG to get to the rim, in part to make it easier on their teammates.

martin
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12/11/2017  3:19 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

This tweet conflates numbers with aggresiveness. Its not Frank's PPG thats an issue, its Frank passing on many opportunities to score. Most of those players werent PGs either. More important for a PG to get to the rim, in part to make it easier on their teammates.

eh, that's a thin slice of differentiating. Aggressiveness/ability, those guys are now known for their scoring and absolute ability to get to rim and put ball in basket and not even worry about running offense/setting up teammates.

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BigDaddyG
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12/11/2017  3:20 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

This tweet conflates numbers with aggresiveness. Its not Frank's PPG thats an issue, its Frank passing on many opportunities to score. Most of those players werent PGs either. More important for a PG to get to the rim, in part to make it easier on their teammates.


It's not the end all, be all. We already have a guy capable of drawing double teams, which serves the same purpose. They're are different types of PGs and they've had varying degrees of success. I've used this example a number of times, but Mark Jackson couldn't consistently get to the room in the half court. That's why he developed the floater. That said, I think Frank is showing signs of being able to penetrate. I'd rather have this situation than a 🌹 situation. What good is penetration ability if you can't see the floor.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
nixluva
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12/11/2017  3:23 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

This tweet conflates numbers with aggresiveness. Its not Frank's PPG thats an issue, its Frank passing on many opportunities to score. Most of those players werent PGs either. More important for a PG to get to the rim, in part to make it easier on their teammates.


Frank LITERALLY plays like a Triangle PG. In the Triangle there aren't a lot of Freelance Penetration opportunities due to the spacing and that is by design. In the Triangle Frank would be doing EXACTLY what he's been doing so far. That said, he's got more ability to grow beyond those restrictions and so far he's slowly starting to recognize when to be aggressive and look to exploit openings.

Frank IMO is going to be just fine. He's not going to transform into something he's not. IMO he's going to learn what he's best suited to do by trial and error. He's capable of playing SG so we see Jeff has no problem playing him with another PG. Jeff used Frank, Jack and Baker at one point.

GustavBahler
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12/11/2017  3:25 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

This tweet conflates numbers with aggresiveness. Its not Frank's PPG thats an issue, its Frank passing on many opportunities to score. Most of those players werent PGs either. More important for a PG to get to the rim, in part to make it easier on their teammates.


It's not the end all, be all. We already have a guy capable of drawing double teams, which serves the same purpose. They're are different types of PGs and they've had varying degrees of success. I've used this example a number of times, but Mark Jackson couldn't consistently get to the room in the half court. That's why he developed the floater. That said, I think Frank is showing signs of being able to penetrate. I'd rather have this situation than a 🌹 situation. What good is penetration ability if you can't see the floor.

Obviously dont want a ball hog like Rose. At the same time, you dont want any PG to be at the bottom of the league in getting to the rim. Im not expecting Frank to be Kyrie, or Wall, but he has to drive enough to keep the defense honest enough to give our shooters some room to operate.
Starting to do that now.

Nalod
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12/11/2017  3:31 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

Knicks' fans...patience...That is asking a lot of many of us.

Its easy to watch and say "he needs to......."
How are the other rookies defense? Might he be the best rookie guard defender? That don't get you "Rookie of the month" but isn't that something REAL knick fans should be celebrating? Don't real KNick fans appreciate defense and unselfish play?

Suggestion: get real.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
martin
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12/11/2017  3:36 PM
Nalod wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

Knicks' fans...patience...That is asking a lot of many of us.

Its easy to watch and say "he needs to......."
How are the other rookies defense? Might he be the best rookie guard defender? That don't get you "Rookie of the month" but isn't that something REAL knick fans should be celebrating? Don't real KNick fans appreciate defense and unselfish play?

Suggestion: get real.

Are you suggesting that Dennis Smith should go to the G-League for some games so that he can improve his defense

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GustavBahler
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12/11/2017  3:38 PM
Nalod wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

Knicks' fans...patience...That is asking a lot of many of us.

Its easy to watch and say "he needs to......."
How are the other rookies defense? Might he be the best rookie guard defender? That don't get you "Rookie of the month" but isn't that something REAL knick fans should be celebrating? Don't real KNick fans appreciate defense and unselfish play?

Suggestion: get real.

Remember everyone, dont say anything negative about Frank's game.

What do you think this is, a basketball message board??

Give Me Your Ntilikina Evaluation

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