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OT: The American middle class just got their goose cooked
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OldFan
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12/3/2017  1:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/3/2017  1:58 PM
arkrud wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
arkrud wrote:Its cool that American Middle class has a goose to be cooked.
Most of the world population have no goose, and many have nothing to eat at all...
As a citizen of Empire I am satisfied. Hail to the Emperor and Senators!!!
All we need is more Bread-with-butter and Entertainment.
As for the rest of the world... they will get their shot sooner or later but not in my lifetime.

The clarion call of the enabler. We also dont have Universal Health care, maternity leave, clean water, well funded schools, an infrastructure that isnt bordering on complete failure. A government that represents all classes either.

Guess we have to wait until we become Somalia to complain. Deregulation worked out great for them.

We do not have many things but we have freedom for everyone to accept the live and things we have or move on to any other place where life is better.
Not to many are moving... I wonder why? Most likely this other place is hard to find.
People never value what they have and cry about what they do not have instead.
I guess this is human nature.
90% of the people of the world will consider everyone who is unsatisfied with his live in US as hypocrite of highest degree and for a good reason.

Most people even if they believe other countries do a better job - can't pick up and move easily, families, friends, and commitments are here.

We don't want to move we just want to improve where we are. I agree we have a lot here, but I disagree that wanting it to be better makes someone a hypocrite. It's part of being human to strive to make things better and certainly part of the American Ideal.

I'm going to take a guess that you support the current administration and direction of the country. But, can you honestly say you never complained about previous administrations? Were you a hypocrite then? I'm not trying to be obnoxious I'm just trying to point out that complaining about something that you believe is wrong is not hypocritical. We have a lot of good things in this country. One of them is that citizens are free to voice their opinions. Being a citizen doesn't end at the ballot box. Our way of life depends on discussing (and yes complaining) and being active. We don't need to just accept what is handed down by our elected official - we are part of the process.

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meloshouldgo
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12/3/2017  2:24 PM
Gudris wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:It's amazing how the Republicans have managed to keep people voting against their own best interests over and over again. This is just the final nail in the coffin that rich and big corps have been trying to put the Middle Class and Poor into for decades. They've managed to rig the system and push all the money to the top. Now they can suck the rest of the money from Social Security, Medicare and all social programs.

I shouldn't be so shocked by the Craven and Cruel nature of these people but it still does have me shaking my head in disbelief. These people already have IT ALL and yet that's not enough. They've gotta take the crumbs too.

They are sitting on over 2 Trillion in profits (2015 data - current #s would be a lot higher) and it was the measly 400B that was keeping them from creating jobs. FUCKING HYPOCRITES
And 50% of the country fall for this **** every time they vote - democracy is truly custom built for the STOOPID


This

That's actually a pretty cool video thanks for sharing. But if you think about it, the very definition of what Socrates wanted, makes it impossible. You can start a model democracy like he wanted where only people allowed to vote are the ones who show they can think rationally and possess a level of wisdom. But it would soon get taken over by egos, corruption and a ruling class would form. Power corrupts, and people yield to corruption easily. In America more than anywhere else in the world the focus is always on "action" and not on "thought". Success is measured in wealth not knowledge, greatness is ascribed to fame not altruism. People who approach life philosophically are subject to ridicule here or they get marginalized in the rat race and are considered failures.

The democracy Socrates envisioned would require benevolent leaders with altruistic philosophies leading the country to greater good. And we got Trump...

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
Cartman718
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12/3/2017  2:28 PM
Anyone who says that America should get a pass because...
1. at least we have basic infrastructure in the majority of the country
2. at least we have running water and electricity and cooking gas blah blah
etc etc...
(This is the kind of sentiment arkrud has represented in this thread)
...at least we are not facing genocide, civil war, etc etc etc

That way of thinking in my opinion is simply wrong.

The reason why America became great is because the freedom of speech is something we almost never try to compromise on.
And that means when something like this happens in the government, and when this is the reality of our country and world http://www.businessinsider.com/americas-richest-people-wealthiest-billionaires-2017-10/#1-bill-gates-89-billion-9, we speak and complain and bitch about it. We draw attention to it, hopefully start a forum around it in society which brings about action and eventually legislation.

It's not because we sit back and say, but at least we live in the greatest country in the world. The country is great because we as a people speak up for what's right and wrong. Not because we sit back, relax, and "enjoy the ride" like you say. Take note arkrud and this whole attitude you and maybe some others have around it. You consistently throw stuff out there around how the world works and how other countries work versus this country. Like you, I am an immigrant and I didn't make this country my home because "life is so much better" alone. A very BIG reason is because it allows everyone to have a voice and not just accept whatever the government dishes out.

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
Paris907
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12/3/2017  3:25 PM
While a former Tax practitioner, I’ve not read the Bill. Clearly, if your a high income wage earner in NYC, this hurts as your mortgage is capped and you lose a plethora of deductions. Your real estate tax deduction is capped as well. Thus this actually hurts the well to do, particularly in States like Cali and Ny with wealthy taxpayers who will lose their state and local tax deduction. Florida and Texas taxpayers should be in good shape but wait until the brackets are defined which they aren’t at present. This Knick forum has a heavy left bent, politically speaking. I grew up on UWS of Manhattan very liberal by definition. Yet, after business school and law school and a heavy dose of Reagan, Constitutional law and Bill Buckley, I’m Conservative (not Republican) and libertarian and will withhold judgment on the legislation until its final.
Paris907
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12/3/2017  3:25 PM
While a former Tax practitioner, I’ve not read the Bill. Clearly, if your a high income wage earner in NYC, this hurts as your mortgage is capped and you lose a plethora of deductions. Your real estate tax deduction is capped as well. Thus this actually hurts the well to do, particularly in States like Cali and Ny with wealthy taxpayers who will lose their state and local tax deduction. Florida and Texas taxpayers should be in good shape but wait until the brackets are defined which they aren’t at present. This Knick forum has a heavy left bent, politically speaking. I grew up on UWS of Manhattan very liberal by definition. Yet, after business school and law school and a heavy dose of Reagan, Constitutional law and Bill Buckley, I’m Conservative (not Republican) and libertarian and will withhold judgment on the legislation until its final.
TPercy
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12/3/2017  4:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/3/2017  4:10 PM
I don't see whats wrong with this tax bill. Some holes but overall pretty good especially with the corporate tax rate.
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Rookie
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12/3/2017  4:10 PM
GustavBahler wrote:When I see big Pharma market Opiods like Chiclets. For everything under the sun, like heroine was in the 19th century. When it became clear that these drugs (which are considered by the govt to be less dangerous than pot) was being abused, and causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans.

Law enforcement identified some pharmacies who were selling enough opiods for entire countries, let alone counties. Big Pharma lobbied to tie the hands of law enforcement, so they couldn't go after the bad actors.

What did this mean? It meant that tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people died who could have been saved, because they made these very powerful an addictive drugs so easy to get. Just to make a few more bucks.

This is just one industry in one country. Magnify the problem of this type of greed across other industries, worldwide, and you see a philosophy that is causing a great deal of needless suffering in this world.

Ive never bought into a Walt Disney like image of corporate Anerica growing up, maybe because I grew up in NYC. But I respected it, because I believed they offered as much to the country, the world, as they took for themselves.

Although it worked out better for the United States because we were lucky enough to be the last industrial power standing after WWII.

From making great products, the way they treated their customers, the bottom line is all that matters anymore to them. Im all for capitalism, but not what it has devolved into. Thats what regulations are for. To keep this type of philosophy from breaking the compact between business and govt. When big business goes to great lengths to avoid paying taxes, the infrastructure that supports their profits decays. What do they do? Move factories to other countries. Its a race to the bottom now.

If you want to read an incredibly sad story, check out the New Yorker article on the Sackler family. They single handedly invented, marketed and profited from the development of oxygen continues which was approved by the FDA in 1995 under the Clinton administration. The DEA finally cracked down on the marketing and liability of oxygen continue in 2003 under the Bush administration. Of course, the Sackers knew this would affect their bottom line and shipped their death overseas to a whole new batch of unsuspecting countries. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/30/the-family-that-built-an-empire-of-pain

GustavBahler
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12/3/2017  4:33 PM
Rookie wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:When I see big Pharma market Opiods like Chiclets. For everything under the sun, like heroine was in the 19th century. When it became clear that these drugs (which are considered by the govt to be less dangerous than pot) was being abused, and causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans.

Law enforcement identified some pharmacies who were selling enough opiods for entire countries, let alone counties. Big Pharma lobbied to tie the hands of law enforcement, so they couldn't go after the bad actors.

What did this mean? It meant that tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people died who could have been saved, because they made these very powerful an addictive drugs so easy to get. Just to make a few more bucks.

This is just one industry in one country. Magnify the problem of this type of greed across other industries, worldwide, and you see a philosophy that is causing a great deal of needless suffering in this world.

Ive never bought into a Walt Disney like image of corporate Anerica growing up, maybe because I grew up in NYC. But I respected it, because I believed they offered as much to the country, the world, as they took for themselves.

Although it worked out better for the United States because we were lucky enough to be the last industrial power standing after WWII.

From making great products, the way they treated their customers, the bottom line is all that matters anymore to them. Im all for capitalism, but not what it has devolved into. Thats what regulations are for. To keep this type of philosophy from breaking the compact between business and govt. When big business goes to great lengths to avoid paying taxes, the infrastructure that supports their profits decays. What do they do? Move factories to other countries. Its a race to the bottom now.

If you want to read an incredibly sad story, check out the New Yorker article on the Sackler family. They single handedly invented, marketed and profited from the development of oxygen continues which was approved by the FDA in 1995 under the Clinton administration. The DEA finally cracked down on the marketing and liability of oxygen continue in 2003 under the Bush administration. Of course, the Sackers knew this would affect their bottom line and shipped their death overseas to a whole new batch of unsuspecting countries. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/30/the-family-that-built-an-empire-of-pain

They had a lot of help, unfortunately. From the salesmen, to the doctors who were only too happy to accept something on the side, to the insurance companies who put so much stock in their use. Its why I believe a single payer system is a better idea. Choices are made which are best for the patient, not the insurance company, or drug manufacturers. No putting profit motive first when it comes to matters of health, life.

What many people dont realize was that universal health care was originally created to take the burden off of business. To let them make money without having to worry about things like health care.

Big Pharma's stategy is similar to Big Tobaccos', after they started feeling the heat. Look for new markets. People come from all over the world to see our doctors, not our health care system or the most expensive drug prices in the world.

TPercy
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12/3/2017  4:42 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:It's amazing how the Republicans have managed to keep people voting against their own best interests over and over again. This is just the final nail in the coffin that rich and big corps have been trying to put the Middle Class and Poor into for decades. They've managed to rig the system and push all the money to the top. Now they can suck the rest of the money from Social Security, Medicare and all social programs.

I shouldn't be so shocked by the Craven and Cruel nature of these people but it still does have me shaking my head in disbelief. These people already have IT ALL and yet that's not enough. They've gotta take the crumbs too.

They are sitting on over 2 Trillion in profits (2015 data - current #s would be a lot higher) and it was the measly 400B that was keeping them from creating jobs. FUCKING HYPOCRITES
And 50% of the country fall for this **** every time they vote - democracy is truly custom built for the STOOPID


Whats this graph supposed to prove exactly? You do realize that high corporate tax rates incentivize buisness and investment overseas right? Talk about democracy truly being for the stupid.
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nixluva
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12/3/2017  4:44 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:When I see big Pharma market Opiods like Chiclets. For everything under the sun, like heroine was in the 19th century. When it became clear that these drugs (which are considered by the govt to be less dangerous than pot) was being abused, and causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans.

Law enforcement identified some pharmacies who were selling enough opiods for entire countries, let alone counties. Big Pharma lobbied to tie the hands of law enforcement, so they couldn't go after the bad actors.

What did this mean? It meant that tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people died who could have been saved, because they made these very powerful an addictive drugs so easy to get. Just to make a few more bucks.

This is just one industry in one country. Magnify the problem of this type of greed across other industries, worldwide, and you see a philosophy that is causing a great deal of needless suffering in this world.

Ive never bought into a Walt Disney like image of corporate Anerica growing up, maybe because I grew up in NYC. But I respected it, because I believed they offered as much to the country, the world, as they took for themselves.

Although it worked out better for the United States because we were lucky enough to be the last industrial power standing after WWII.

From making great products, the way they treated their customers, the bottom line is all that matters anymore to them. Im all for capitalism, but not what it has devolved into. Thats what regulations are for. To keep this type of philosophy from breaking the compact between business and govt. When big business goes to great lengths to avoid paying taxes, the infrastructure that supports their profits decays. What do they do? Move factories to other countries. Its a race to the bottom now.

GREAT POST! I wish this wasn’t true but it’s 100% the TRUTH!!!

You mentioned Infrastructure and nowhere is it more evident how the last 40 some odd years there’s been a concerted effort to disinvest in the framework of this country. They’ve hollowed out the core of this country and made it weak and far behind the rest of the top countries in the world. To this very day there’s been nothing done to improve this country’s infrastructure. Now we’re so far behind it may be impossible to catch up in our lifetimes. They’ve literally BLOCKED any legislation that would increase investment in infrastructure, education or increase salaries!!! This has been intentional CRAVEN GREED!!!

Less educated people equals more votes for the GOP. Less salaries means more distrust of dems and worse infrastructure means valid excuse to outsource. Ours a triple whammy that was planned and well executed. The GOP can do this because they are disciplined and act like a monolithic block in their own self interest. Dems are weak and waste time squabbling among themselves.


This time the Progressive Wing and the Center Left Dems MUST unite completely behind the Progressive Cause. There's literally no reason to do otherwise at this point. There's no point trying to cater to some imagined Moderate Republican Voters. Just do what's right for the people at this point. We've tried to play the middle and be reasonable but where has that gotten us.

The Repubs always play DIRTY. They ran out the Clock on Obama's Presidency and Blocked Judges as well as Legislation. They do whatever they have to in order to get their way. Repubs take the Scorched Earth Approach to everything!!! They don't care who they hurt or how much lying they have to do. It's win at all costs.

TPercy
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12/3/2017  4:44 PM
nixluva wrote:

This is great.

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TPercy
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12/3/2017  4:47 PM
nixluva wrote:Reading some of these posts it’s clear to me that there are some who don’t appreciate the way this country built the worlds largest Middle Class and the success that gave this country only to see it whittled away over the decades by a very few of this country’s richest and most powerful.

None of this imbalance was an accident. The gap in CEO to Employee pay has grown exponentially and they worked hard to rig things so this would happen. We’re LITERALLY witnessing a massive example of this right now!!!


False False and False.

The middle class might have shrunk, but thats because people in the middle class joined the upper middle class. I don't understand why having a large middle class is a goal.

Employee compensation and CEO have always grown in tandem for the post part. Where is your evidence for this?

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12/3/2017  7:07 PM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:Reading some of these posts it’s clear to me that there are some who don’t appreciate the way this country built the worlds largest Middle Class and the success that gave this country only to see it whittled away over the decades by a very few of this country’s richest and most powerful.

None of this imbalance was an accident. The gap in CEO to Employee pay has grown exponentially and they worked hard to rig things so this would happen. We’re LITERALLY witnessing a massive example of this right now!!!


False False and False.

The middle class might have shrunk, but thats because people in the middle class joined the upper middle class. I don't understand why having a large middle class is a goal.

Employee compensation and CEO have always grown in tandem for the post part. Where is your evidence for this?

Guys, this is really too easy. Today, in this day in age, we have the Internet. And Google. And a whole crapload of other resources. If you can't take 1 minute to validate what is prominently well known, then you will look VERY silly.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+pay+vs+worker+pay

Click on the articles to read the info. Click on the Images version to see the nice graphs.

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arkrud
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12/3/2017  8:07 PM
martin wrote:
arkrud wrote:History of the human race is not about fairness.
The strongest, the smartest, the adaptable survives and thrives.
It is no point to go down together. Its silly.
"Greedy Corporations" is another Urban Legend, same as Illuminati or Sion Elders to protect weak minds from accepting reality.
Humans are not perfect and have a long way to go to enlightened state and leaving live in harmony with the World and each other.
But we are getting better. Slowly but surely. With setbacks and with no guaranty of making it.
So only smart thing to do is just enjoy the ride.

arkrud, do you have anything to add to this thread besides the above mumbo-jumbo? If not, please stick to Knicks. Thanks

New American left wing style of selective "Freedom of Speech".
If you don't like and do not understand someone view of life it is mumbo-jumbo...
OK - you can be happy listen to yourself. I am out to talk bbal mumbo-jumbos...

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
arkrud
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12/3/2017  8:15 PM
OldFan wrote:
arkrud wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
arkrud wrote:Its cool that American Middle class has a goose to be cooked.
Most of the world population have no goose, and many have nothing to eat at all...
As a citizen of Empire I am satisfied. Hail to the Emperor and Senators!!!
All we need is more Bread-with-butter and Entertainment.
As for the rest of the world... they will get their shot sooner or later but not in my lifetime.

The clarion call of the enabler. We also dont have Universal Health care, maternity leave, clean water, well funded schools, an infrastructure that isnt bordering on complete failure. A government that represents all classes either.

Guess we have to wait until we become Somalia to complain. Deregulation worked out great for them.

We do not have many things but we have freedom for everyone to accept the live and things we have or move on to any other place where life is better.
Not to many are moving... I wonder why? Most likely this other place is hard to find.
People never value what they have and cry about what they do not have instead.
I guess this is human nature.
90% of the people of the world will consider everyone who is unsatisfied with his live in US as hypocrite of highest degree and for a good reason.

Most people even if they believe other countries do a better job - can't pick up and move easily, families, friends, and commitments are here.

We don't want to move we just want to improve where we are. I agree we have a lot here, but I disagree that wanting it to be better makes someone a hypocrite. It's part of being human to strive to make things better and certainly part of the American Ideal.

I'm going to take a guess that you support the current administration and direction of the country. But, can you honestly say you never complained about previous administrations? Were you a hypocrite then? I'm not trying to be obnoxious I'm just trying to point out that complaining about something that you believe is wrong is not hypocritical. We have a lot of good things in this country. One of them is that citizens are free to voice their opinions. Being a citizen doesn't end at the ballot box. Our way of life depends on discussing (and yes complaining) and being active. We don't need to just accept what is handed down by our elected official - we are part of the process.

Sorry I am not in line with the political orientation of this blog so can only speak bbal...
But as you asked the question I am not Trump supported and not Republican supporter.
I support market economy and equal right of ALL people for happiness.
I consider all people who increase material, intellectual, and spiritual wealth of the society good and who destroyed this wealth evil regardless of political orientation and any other labels.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
martin
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12/3/2017  9:11 PM
arkrud wrote:
martin wrote:
arkrud wrote:History of the human race is not about fairness.
The strongest, the smartest, the adaptable survives and thrives.
It is no point to go down together. Its silly.
"Greedy Corporations" is another Urban Legend, same as Illuminati or Sion Elders to protect weak minds from accepting reality.
Humans are not perfect and have a long way to go to enlightened state and leaving live in harmony with the World and each other.
But we are getting better. Slowly but surely. With setbacks and with no guaranty of making it.
So only smart thing to do is just enjoy the ride.

arkrud, do you have anything to add to this thread besides the above mumbo-jumbo? If not, please stick to Knicks. Thanks

New American left wing style of selective "Freedom of Speech".
If you don't like and do not understand someone view of life it is mumbo-jumbo...
OK - you can be happy listen to yourself. I am out to talk bbal mumbo-jumbos...

I dont understand you because your grasp of the english language is perhaps not what you think it is? Also, your opinions flat out don't make sense and aren't that well informed in the way you are expressing them.

You are philosophizing in an exchange and a topic that isn't really meant for it, feel free to create your own thread and have at it.

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martin
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12/3/2017  9:13 PM
arkrud wrote:Sorry I am not in line with the political orientation of this blog so can only speak bbal...

Also, this isn't a blog, it's a discussion board; 2 very distinct things. And political orientation doesn't have anything to do with what you have been asked.

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meloshouldgo
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12/3/2017  9:55 PM
TPercy wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:It's amazing how the Republicans have managed to keep people voting against their own best interests over and over again. This is just the final nail in the coffin that rich and big corps have been trying to put the Middle Class and Poor into for decades. They've managed to rig the system and push all the money to the top. Now they can suck the rest of the money from Social Security, Medicare and all social programs.

I shouldn't be so shocked by the Craven and Cruel nature of these people but it still does have me shaking my head in disbelief. These people already have IT ALL and yet that's not enough. They've gotta take the crumbs too.

They are sitting on over 2 Trillion in profits (2015 data - current #s would be a lot higher) and it was the measly 400B that was keeping them from creating jobs. FUCKING HYPOCRITES
And 50% of the country fall for this **** every time they vote - democracy is truly custom built for the STOOPID


Whats this graph supposed to prove exactly? You do realize that high corporate tax rates incentivize buisness and investment overseas right? Talk about democracy truly being for the stupid.

The above chart shows US companies are sitting on all time record profits - so one can logically conclude if they wanted to invest in wage growth and job growth and innovation they have all the means at their disposal to do so. Instead they have chosen to use their capital for stock buy backs to artificially raise share prices so the C-suite can keep getting 90% of all the growth. Corporations are sitting on over 3 trillion in profits and the real median wage has fallen. But it's the tax rate that's keeping them from investing here? Are you seriously this stupid?

Now let's examine your right wing "talking point". Please go ahead and provide data that backs up its the "corporate tax rate" that has "incentivized overseas business and investment"
And when you do that make sure you articulate exactly what the fukk the tax rate has to do with anything and connect that up with actual taxes paid by corporations.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
nixluva
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12/3/2017  10:47 PM
Craven, Heartless Bastards!!!

arkrud
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12/4/2017  8:12 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/4/2017  11:28 AM
martin wrote:
arkrud wrote:
martin wrote:
arkrud wrote:History of the human race is not about fairness.
The strongest, the smartest, the adaptable survives and thrives.
It is no point to go down together. Its silly.
"Greedy Corporations" is another Urban Legend, same as Illuminati or Sion Elders to protect weak minds from accepting reality.
Humans are not perfect and have a long way to go to enlightened state and leaving live in harmony with the World and each other.
But we are getting better. Slowly but surely. With setbacks and with no guaranty of making it.
So only smart thing to do is just enjoy the ride.

arkrud, do you have anything to add to this thread besides the above mumbo-jumbo? If not, please stick to Knicks. Thanks

New American left wing style of selective "Freedom of Speech".
If you don't like and do not understand someone view of life it is mumbo-jumbo...
OK - you can be happy listen to yourself. I am out to talk bbal mumbo-jumbos...

I dont understand you because your grasp of the english language is perhaps not what you think it is? Also, your opinions flat out don't make sense and aren't that well informed in the way you are expressing them.

You are philosophizing in an exchange and a topic that isn't really meant for it, feel free to create your own thread and have at it.

I just read my post back and cannot see why it is not clear.
Everything in the world is connected and everything is starting with philosophy because everything humans do started in human mind.
Most of the people just cannot see the connection.
The thread is about Tax bill is being in favor of "Corporations"...
It is clear that it is in favor of corporations but all of them not only the big.
And America corporations are mostly small and have 26 millions direct owners behind them.
It will also help to grow GDP and create more job.
So both as upper middle class worker, small business owner, and shareholder I approve the bill in general.
It can be better in some areas but should be good for US wealth creation and so make life on US people on average better over time.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
OT: The American middle class just got their goose cooked

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