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Kp is simply not a reliable player to be counted on
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dodger78
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11/26/2017  11:01 AM
Seriously... they rested a young player they groom to be the franchise cornerstone in a season that is clearly in the context of developing talent and as a team... on a back to back... vs a team you calculate the loss in your schedule already.
And you start talking about reliabe and trade and...
This is a HUGE overreaction I think!

Lets just enjoy the ride this season... let the young guys develop. Set a tone in terms of identity... D-First etc!
If we end up in the Playoffs cool... if we end up in the lottery... cool as well...
I think its a win win thing this season!!!
And please dont forget that KP has not had much rest since last season also playing the Euros this summer... its cool to get him rest on a back to back game in Houston! Dont worry! He will be fine!!!

AUTOADVERT
Zebo13
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11/26/2017  11:24 AM
BRIGGS is simply not a reliable thread-starter to be counted on.
Bonn1997
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11/26/2017  11:38 AM
Zebo13 wrote:BRIGGS is simply not a reliable thread-starter to be counted on.

LOL. Harsh, though.

Knixkik
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11/26/2017  11:49 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Are you kidding me?
The guy averages 27 a night, who was the last big man to do that for us? Ewing.
He's a great talent. Works hard. Gets better each year. Shows leadership qualities. Steps up when you need him to.
What player in this league plays every game at KP's position?

Durant?
Anthony Davis?

Most of these guys get hurt.

And as someone already said, have you not noticed KP's two rest games came when we were on a back to back situation in a road game? The staff is managing KP very well this year. He needs to be rested in those situations and his minutes monitored. You can be a franchise player and still get that treatment. Spurs did it with Duncan for years.

Not over reaction and not negative— I don’t see him as a guy with capacity to play 35 minutes and 75+ games. When building the team- I think it would be prescient to build this wAy

So he plays 70 games a year, so what? At least half of it will be scheduled rest and maybe the other half will be legit injury. This is how the league is now. We don't expect players to be ironman anymore. That doesn't mean you can't build around them. You just need to build a deep team so it's capable of staying above water when your best players are out. This is such an overreaction to say you can't build around a player because he could get injured or sit out once in awhile. If you want him to play 75+ games thats fine, just know that a lot of the reason he may not will be the choice of the team, not him.

nixluva
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11/26/2017  11:52 AM
Since Phil came on and changed the approach of the Training Staff the Knicks have improved in their games lost due to injury. This is a good process. Being conservative with players minutes and games played will only help to keep them healthy. They shutdown KP last year cuz it made sense. If they were a playoff team I suspect KP would’ve played.
Nalod
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11/26/2017  12:10 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Are you kidding me?
The guy averages 27 a night, who was the last big man to do that for us? Ewing.
He's a great talent. Works hard. Gets better each year. Shows leadership qualities. Steps up when you need him to.
What player in this league plays every game at KP's position?

Durant?
Anthony Davis?

Most of these guys get hurt.

And as someone already said, have you not noticed KP's two rest games came when we were on a back to back situation in a road game? The staff is managing KP very well this year. He needs to be rested in those situations and his minutes monitored. You can be a franchise player and still get that treatment. Spurs did it with Duncan for years.

Not over reaction and not negative— I don’t see him as a guy with capacity to play 35 minutes and 75+ games. When building the team- I think it would be prescient to build this wAy

Few players are. Didn't you prescribe we don't run him into the ground?
Yes, you do over react because you over respond constantly.

Anger sells, don't buy!
nykshaknbake
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11/26/2017  1:12 PM
He's gonna have durability issues due to his height, but I think they may be overstated here. I think he could very well be the centerpiece of a team with 2 other star players or another star and great supporting cast contending for a championship.
Vmart
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11/26/2017  2:06 PM
Once they lost to the Hawks I knew the Knicks would rest KP. It’s the smart thing to do. I hope they do it 10 more times. Knicks look like a team that will struggle in the road excellent opportunity to rest players.
NardDogNation
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11/26/2017  2:19 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:Are you kidding me?
The guy averages 27 a night, who was the last big man to do that for us? Ewing.
He's a great talent. Works hard. Gets better each year. Shows leadership qualities. Steps up when you need him to.
What player in this league plays every game at KP's position?

Durant?
Anthony Davis?

Most of these guys get hurt.

And as someone already said, have you not noticed KP's two rest games came when we were on a back to back situation in a road game? The staff is managing KP very well this year. He needs to be rested in those situations and his minutes monitored. You can be a franchise player and still get that treatment. Spurs did it with Duncan for years.

Most of those teams actually have a supporting cast around those guys that allow them to be competitive in spite of their absence. The Knicks, on the other hand, have a couple parlor tricks and mismatched talent that can't do much of anything without KP and have no means to add another KP-caliber talent to the team. Therein, lies the problem. I think everyone is on the KP train but people in this contingent question whether he'll be able to shoulder the load exclusively long-term due to health. And if he can't do that, that is why trading for multiple blue chip assets and high draft picks who could share that burden becomes appealing.

Like I suggested, imagine walking away from this past draft with Jaylen Brown, Jonathan Isaac OR Jayson Tatum, and a top 3-5 pick next year IN ADDITION to our own pick that would be pretty high without KP! That's two or three assets that could materialize into franchise players just from moving Kristaps! When you pair that with Frank Ntilikina, Willy Hernangomez and possibly a Damyean Dotson, you could potentially have the nucleus of a future championship team without the pain of prolonged tanking. Contrast that to right now, and all that stands in the way of a decade of the same **** we've seen for the past decade is Kristaps and that is a scary proposition for people like me given his health and the injury history of freakishly big men (e.g. Yao Ming, Greg Oden, Andrew Bynum, Manute Bol, etc.).

dacash
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11/26/2017  3:57 PM
lol embiid guys praise and he onky plays like 10 games a year kp play atleast 65 and is not good anymore
arkrud
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11/26/2017  5:02 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/26/2017  5:03 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Are you kidding me?
The guy averages 27 a night, who was the last big man to do that for us? Ewing.
He's a great talent. Works hard. Gets better each year. Shows leadership qualities. Steps up when you need him to.
What player in this league plays every game at KP's position?

Durant?
Anthony Davis?

Most of these guys get hurt.

And as someone already said, have you not noticed KP's two rest games came when we were on a back to back situation in a road game? The staff is managing KP very well this year. He needs to be rested in those situations and his minutes monitored. You can be a franchise player and still get that treatment. Spurs did it with Duncan for years.

Most of those teams actually have a supporting cast around those guys that allow them to be competitive in spite of their absence. The Knicks, on the other hand, have a couple parlor tricks and mismatched talent that can't do much of anything without KP and have no means to add another KP-caliber talent to the team. Therein, lies the problem. I think everyone is on the KP train but people in this contingent question whether he'll be able to shoulder the load exclusively long-term due to health. And if he can't do that, that is why trading for multiple blue chip assets and high draft picks who could share that burden becomes appealing.

Like I suggested, imagine walking away from this past draft with Jaylen Brown, Jonathan Isaac OR Jayson Tatum, and a top 3-5 pick next year IN ADDITION to our own pick that would be pretty high without KP! That's two or three assets that could materialize into franchise players just from moving Kristaps! When you pair that with Frank Ntilikina, Willy Hernangomez and possibly a Damyean Dotson, you could potentially have the nucleus of a future championship team without the pain of prolonged tanking. Contrast that to right now, and all that stands in the way of a decade of the same **** we've seen for the past decade is Kristaps and that is a scary proposition for people like me given his health and the injury history of freakishly big men (e.g. Yao Ming, Greg Oden, Andrew Bynum, Manute Bol, etc.).

You have sure thing - you keep it.
Any count of maybes is not a way to success.
Knicks are at the very beginning of the rebuild and talent pool we have is short.
We have 8-9 players who can be a part of the success and they are playing and developing the team identity.
But with all injuries and load of NBA level competition team needs much more players to sustain competitiveness most of the time.
Even more team needs structure on offense and defense with players pool fitting in replaceable parts included.
This house is just in 0-level cycle of establishing foundation.
We need healthy and physically developed KP when the house will be ready to became a powerhouse.
So let him rest.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
Bonn1997
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11/26/2017  5:23 PM
It's OK to be concerned about KP's health and durability. It would be silly not to be. Yet, every decision including trading him is a gamble, and every approach has a low probability of working. (Only 1 team wins a title and only a few contend each year.) If the goal is to have a durable, legit franchise player, I think it's more likely that KP becomes one (maybe 50/50) than it is that we could trade him for picks/players and get one. The base rate of any player/pick becoming a durable franchise player is simply too low.
BRIGGS
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11/26/2017  8:02 PM
dodger78 wrote:Seriously... they rested a young player they groom to be the franchise cornerstone in a season that is clearly in the context of developing talent and as a team... on a back to back... vs a team you calculate the loss in your schedule already.
And you start talking about reliabe and trade and...
This is a HUGE overreaction I think!

Lets just enjoy the ride this season... let the young guys develop. Set a tone in terms of identity... D-First etc!
If we end up in the Playoffs cool... if we end up in the lottery... cool as well...
I think its a win win thing this season!!!
And please dont forget that KP has not had much rest since last season also playing the Euros this summer... its cool to get him rest on a back to back game in Houston! Dont worry! He will be fine!!!

This isnt really about him being fine--its the reality that we will need to really develop a 3-4 man "core" of talent that will include KP. This is not a case where we have Hakeem Olajuwan and 7 role players--wont work. He is not and will not be a "Hakeem Olujuwan type" of franchise player. So cap space from role players might be more important to us going 4 ward.

newyorker4ever
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11/26/2017  8:33 PM
Briggs just looking for a reaction out of you guys which he got.
LivingLegend
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11/26/2017  8:43 PM
BRIGGS wrote:I don't think he is capable of playing more than 60-65 games a year max. I said this in a post a couple of weeks ago-- he's a 25-28 minute player that needs to be monitored for the long term. While he can have a form of franchise talent-- he is not Sturdy enough physically to be counted on. He can be part but he will not be THE man

EVERY TEAM in the league would love to build around KP - how can a Knick fan watch this kid and NOT see the incredible development he has already made?

NardDogNation
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11/27/2017  12:37 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/27/2017  12:39 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:It's OK to be concerned about KP's health and durability. It would be silly not to be. Yet, every decision including trading him is a gamble, and every approach has a low probability of working. (Only 1 team wins a title and only a few contend each year.) If the goal is to have a durable, legit franchise player, I think it's more likely that KP becomes one (maybe 50/50) than it is that we could trade him for picks/players and get one. The base rate of any player/pick becoming a durable franchise player is simply too low.

The reality you describe applies to 27 or 28 of the 30 teams in the league. I think we have far more wiggle room in procuring stars because of the market that NYC is. Unfortunately for the Knicks, they are bungling idiots and routinely trade first round picks for cents on the dollar, while regularly overpaying mediocre talent. So when stars become available, we either don't have the assets to acquire them, the means to sign them or we end up jettisoning whatever little value we have on the roster, to then surround said star with CBA-caliber talent (e.g. the Carmelo Anthony deal).

Even if the blue chips assets I'd want in a KP trade don't become franchise players themselves, they still serve a purpose in helping us get to where we need to. Players on rookie deals carry the "potential tag" for quite sometime, so should they disappoint, we can always include them in a deal for a star that inevitably becomes disgruntled (Giannis Antetokounmpo in the future). And as we've seen with DeMarcus Cousins, Paul George and Jimmy Butler, the asking price for star-talent has become far less demanding, which makes it possible to acquire one without gutting all of our assets or even the most valued among them.

Should the talent become compelling but have no franchise caliber talent among them, we can always maintain our course and use our cap space (courtesy of their rookie contracts), to sign a player who can be that star like what the Cavs did with LeBron or the Lakers did with Shaq, back in the day.

In short, I think we're one of the few franchises where quantity of talent might outweigh the quality.

dodger78
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11/27/2017  2:51 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
dodger78 wrote:Seriously... they rested a young player they groom to be the franchise cornerstone in a season that is clearly in the context of developing talent and as a team... on a back to back... vs a team you calculate the loss in your schedule already.
And you start talking about reliabe and trade and...
This is a HUGE overreaction I think!

Lets just enjoy the ride this season... let the young guys develop. Set a tone in terms of identity... D-First etc!
If we end up in the Playoffs cool... if we end up in the lottery... cool as well...
I think its a win win thing this season!!!
And please dont forget that KP has not had much rest since last season also playing the Euros this summer... its cool to get him rest on a back to back game in Houston! Dont worry! He will be fine!!!

This isnt really about him being fine--its the reality that we will need to really develop a 3-4 man "core" of talent that will include KP. This is not a case where we have Hakeem Olajuwan and 7 role players--wont work. He is not and will not be a "Hakeem Olujuwan type" of franchise player. So cap space from role players might be more important to us going 4 ward.

Oh I absolutely agree on this! We will need strong talent around KP to be relevant and more than an average team for years to come.
But thats not based on any kind of physical issue... its simply the name of the game in the NBA ... has been for years. When was the last time a team relying on one super star player was winning big? The Bulls? MJ?
Perhaps the Mavs with Dirk but he had a "then" Defensive Super Star in Chandler and a Hall of Fame PG in Kidd as well as a top 6th man in Terry...

I just do not think that pointing out an issue with KPs physical reliability after he simply sits out a game like Houston is pointing out a relevant issue...

anrst
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11/27/2017  9:37 AM
wasn't there another stupid BRIGGS thread over the summer about how Wily is better than KP
Bonn1997
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11/27/2017  10:19 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/27/2017  10:24 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:It's OK to be concerned about KP's health and durability. It would be silly not to be. Yet, every decision including trading him is a gamble, and every approach has a low probability of working. (Only 1 team wins a title and only a few contend each year.) If the goal is to have a durable, legit franchise player, I think it's more likely that KP becomes one (maybe 50/50) than it is that we could trade him for picks/players and get one. The base rate of any player/pick becoming a durable franchise player is simply too low.

The reality you describe applies to 27 or 28 of the 30 teams in the league. I think we have far more wiggle room in procuring stars because of the market that NYC is. Unfortunately for the Knicks, they are bungling idiots and routinely trade first round picks for cents on the dollar, while regularly overpaying mediocre talent. So when stars become available, we either don't have the assets to acquire them, the means to sign them or we end up jettisoning whatever little value we have on the roster, to then surround said star with CBA-caliber talent (e.g. the Carmelo Anthony deal).

Even if the blue chips assets I'd want in a KP trade don't become franchise players themselves, they still serve a purpose in helping us get to where we need to. Players on rookie deals carry the "potential tag" for quite sometime, so should they disappoint, we can always include them in a deal for a star that inevitably becomes disgruntled (Giannis Antetokounmpo in the future). And as we've seen with DeMarcus Cousins, Paul George and Jimmy Butler, the asking price for star-talent has become far less demanding, which makes it possible to acquire one without gutting all of our assets or even the most valued among them.

Should the talent become compelling but have no franchise caliber talent among them, we can always maintain our course and use our cap space (courtesy of their rookie contracts), to sign a player who can be that star like what the Cavs did with LeBron or the Lakers did with Shaq, back in the day.

In short, I think we're one of the few franchises where quantity of talent might outweigh the quality.


Those are pretty big assumptions! Is NY really that appealing to FAs? Not sure. Even if it is, how many young, durable franchise players in the league are there? Maybe 5? Are you sure any of them love NYC? Are you waiting years for one of them to be an FA? Are you sure you'll design a good team that is appealing to them? It's just too many ifs IMO. Each if lowers the overall probability.
All of this just to get Giannis (your example)? Because KP plays 70 and Giannis 80 games a season? Giannis is a lot better than KP? Not sure - you're comparing a year 3 to year 5 player.
NardDogNation
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11/28/2017  1:27 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/28/2017  1:30 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:It's OK to be concerned about KP's health and durability. It would be silly not to be. Yet, every decision including trading him is a gamble, and every approach has a low probability of working. (Only 1 team wins a title and only a few contend each year.) If the goal is to have a durable, legit franchise player, I think it's more likely that KP becomes one (maybe 50/50) than it is that we could trade him for picks/players and get one. The base rate of any player/pick becoming a durable franchise player is simply too low.

The reality you describe applies to 27 or 28 of the 30 teams in the league. I think we have far more wiggle room in procuring stars because of the market that NYC is. Unfortunately for the Knicks, they are bungling idiots and routinely trade first round picks for cents on the dollar, while regularly overpaying mediocre talent. So when stars become available, we either don't have the assets to acquire them, the means to sign them or we end up jettisoning whatever little value we have on the roster, to then surround said star with CBA-caliber talent (e.g. the Carmelo Anthony deal).

Even if the blue chips assets I'd want in a KP trade don't become franchise players themselves, they still serve a purpose in helping us get to where we need to. Players on rookie deals carry the "potential tag" for quite sometime, so should they disappoint, we can always include them in a deal for a star that inevitably becomes disgruntled (Giannis Antetokounmpo in the future). And as we've seen with DeMarcus Cousins, Paul George and Jimmy Butler, the asking price for star-talent has become far less demanding, which makes it possible to acquire one without gutting all of our assets or even the most valued among them.

Should the talent become compelling but have no franchise caliber talent among them, we can always maintain our course and use our cap space (courtesy of their rookie contracts), to sign a player who can be that star like what the Cavs did with LeBron or the Lakers did with Shaq, back in the day.

In short, I think we're one of the few franchises where quantity of talent might outweigh the quality.


Those are pretty big assumptions! Is NY really that appealing to FAs? Not sure. Even if it is, how many young, durable franchise players in the league are there? Maybe 5? Are you sure any of them love NYC? Are you waiting years for one of them to be an FA? Are you sure you'll design a good team that is appealing to them? It's just too many ifs IMO. Each if lowers the overall probability.
All of this just to get Giannis (your example)? Because KP plays 70 and Giannis 80 games a season? Giannis is a lot better than KP? Not sure - you're comparing a year 3 to year 5 player.

There is nothing wrong with charting a course through the unknown. The Warriors did so a number of times during the process that produced their championship team, least of which included taking the keys from an established "star" in Monta Ellis and giving them to an injury-prone Steph Curry.

There will be risks in whatever we do; I just find it to be especially risky (and as a result, unappealing) to put all our eggs into one basket as we have done. So if a team like the Celtics were to give me multiple shots at drafting high enough to select one of the premier talents, I take it. Drafting- after all- is one of the few things the Knicks seem to do reasonably well over the past decade, so why not orient it as the engine that produces the core of our talent?

To answer some of your other questions: (1) yes, I think Giannis is and will remain a superior player to Kristaps (although I'd like the opportunity to pair the two together), (2) yes, I think Giannis' durability is significant and contributes to his appeal/value, (3) yes, I do believe NYC has a certain luster that is more appealing to free agents IF we have the means to actually win.

Kp is simply not a reliable player to be counted on

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