nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

Ira wrote:He came up with the right combination of players on two consecutive games to mount consecutive impressive comebacks. Of course the players have to get it done on the court, but it helps when the hc shows good coaching mojo.

right substitutions and sticking with what's working. as opposed to woodson-esque...lets play melo coz he's the perennial all star and will pout if you don't play him.

That has been the case with every coach when melo was here, and his teammates just relied on him so much.
These guys play really well together, and it just seems like everyone know their role..

JH, and obviously Rambis (and he doesn't have too many fans) have figured out some things

HOR$ESHIT
Every coach not named Woodson tried to make Melo play in the flow of the offense and ended up getting either fired (MDA, Fisher) or pushed to the edge(Jeff) because Melo flat out refused to do anything even remotely close to team basketball.

Who care's, your disdain for melo has been well documented, and so has my dislike for phils micro managing triangle obsessions.

They're both gone, and the coach seems free to play who he wants, when he wants, and whatever style he wants to run, and the players look happy no matter who's on the floor...(well except for kuz)

Jeff was trying to do the same things last year but DRose, Melo and Jennings were RESISTING. Jeff had more success with the younger players. Now people wanted Rambis gone but this year you can see the players responding and executing his defensive schemes. Jeff and Rambis were getting killed but now with a team that is giving Max Effort and Buying In you can see that they’re effective coaches after all.

Exactly

HofstraBBall wrote:

Ira wrote:He came up with the right combination of players on two consecutive games to mount consecutive impressive comebacks. Of course the players have to get it done on the court, but it helps when the hc shows good coaching mojo.

+1. He is rewarding good play regardless of who he puts on the bench. He has been quick to bench guys if they dont play any defense and rewarded those that have. He has kept the offense pushing the pace and with constant moving. Every time down their are at least 3 or 4 screen and cuts. Right now it is the kind of team and offense anyone would want to put maximum effort for. That is the kind of system most players would want to play for. As for strategy, If you look at last night game, he made a key change by putting KP at the 5 and LT at the 4. Really put pressure on Howard and made a big difference in the comeback. Which he also did last against Indiana. Happy with his coaching so far. But then again, winning makes everything good. So hopefully we keep doing that.

So what your saying is the ball isn't sticking and the offense keeps flowing correct.

CrushAlot wrote:He has been great. I loved the hire but hated what happened last year. When it came out that KP had an issue with Jeff and the team lost every preseason game and the first three of the regular season I was sure that keeping him was a mistake. Glad I was wrong. It would be nice to have some roster and coaching continuity for a change.

Was a little too company man for the players Im guessing. After Phil was jettisoned, players got to see what Hornacek brought to the table.

CrushAlot wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:He has been great. I loved the hire but hated what happened last year. When it came out that KP had an issue with Jeff and the team lost every preseason game and the first three of the regular season I was sure that keeping him was a mistake. Glad I was wrong. It would be nice to have some roster and coaching continuity for a change.

Was a little too company man for the players Im guessing. After Phil was jettisoned, players got to see what Hornacek brought to the table.

I think that was his rep and undoing in Phoenix as well.

KP had something to do with it to be fair. Sometimes coaches (or systems) can impede a player's progress. Jeff seems to be making the most of KP's skill set. Glad they're being cautious. Aside from leaving him in too long for a game. Dont believe we can say that KP is being run into the ground.

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:He has been great. I loved the hire but hated what happened last year. When it came out that KP had an issue with Jeff and the team lost every preseason game and the first three of the regular season I was sure that keeping him was a mistake. Glad I was wrong. It would be nice to have some roster and coaching continuity for a change.

Was a little too company man for the players Im guessing. After Phil was jettisoned, players got to see what Hornacek brought to the table.

Is it even possible that Jeff was still showing the same stuff last year and Fisher was good coach as well? As easy you find it to blame the triangle do you consider the presence of Melo and Rose detrimental to the impact the coach had? Players that refuse to play system basketball are not mentioned as the problem but it was the "triangle" that did it? The thing that we barely played for less than half a season was to blame but the idiots refusing to execute anything but clock wasting and shot jacking weren't why Jeff was hamstrung?

Before Phil and the triangle, Rambis was the problem, before Rambis it was Fisher. Before Fisher and Phil, Donnie Walsh was the problem, before Walsh it was MDA and before MDA it was Lin, before Lin it was Amare
Can you at least agree that during all these problems there was only one thing constant with the team and that's Melo? So maybe just maybe he was the problem?

Leap of faith - I know....

Hornacek had a good first year as a head coach and was respected as an assistant. But his second year in Phoenix he didn't take a stand when his assistants were fired by management. He probably would have lost his job but the rep of not standing up or going to the mat for his assistants and losing that team is going to be with him until he wins a bit. We all know what happened last year. The ball stopped and Rose and Melo would be difficult guys to get to buy into a system not suited for today's game.

I am glad Jeff has a shot at redemption. I am not sure what his best move would have been last year but he definitely didn't make it and he alienated the players in the process.

Melo's been traded and his new team looks JUST like US from last year.
Our team is super competitive and playing like a team on both ends.

Porzingis looks like an all time player in the making.
Frank looks like a defensive stud. Great PG instincts, not a scorer, but a great passer and teammate.
Hornachek looks like the coach we wanted to hire.

I really wonder how much negative impact Rose and Melo had on the team. I wasn't actually there in person. However you look at Cleveland and OKC. Man, hard to not see the same things we were going through.

Used to say it all the time last year. Years from now, people will look back and say Phil did a good job. He set up the Knicks well in the longrun. Trading Melo was a must move. No way Melo moves on, without Phil forcing him out like he did.

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:He has been great. I loved the hire but hated what happened last year. When it came out that KP had an issue with Jeff and the team lost every preseason game and the first three of the regular season I was sure that keeping him was a mistake. Glad I was wrong. It would be nice to have some roster and coaching continuity for a change.

Was a little too company man for the players Im guessing. After Phil was jettisoned, players got to see what Hornacek brought to the table.

Is it even possible that Jeff was still showing the same stuff last year and Fisher was good coach as well? As easy you find it to blame the triangle do you consider the presence of Melo and Rose detrimental to the impact the coach had? Players that refuse to play system basketball are not mentioned as the problem but it was the "triangle" that did it? The thing that we barely played for less than half a season was to blame but the idiots refusing to execute anything but clock wasting and shot jacking weren't why Jeff was hamstrung?

Before Phil and the triangle, Rambis was the problem, before Rambis it was Fisher. Before Fisher and Phil, Donnie Walsh was the problem, before Walsh it was MDA and before MDA it was Lin, before Lin it was Amare
Can you at least agree that during all these problems there was only one thing constant with the team and that's Melo? So maybe just maybe he was the problem?

Leap of faith - I know....

KP was ROY runner up, with Melo as his teammate. Melo was very protective of Porzingis his rookie year, went at anyone who cheap shot KP. Could not have been a better teammate to Porzingis

I blame Rose for being one of the worst PGs in the league, and one of the worst 3 point shooters in the league, last season. His assist rate was below D-leaguers in just the East.

Melo leading the team in assists for an entire season from PF, wasn't enough to change the team's fortunes. Because there wasnt enough talent.

Again Melo was part of the problem at times, but not the problem. That would fall on who gave him the max with a no trade clause. The only reason we are having this conversation.

Only 3 players in the league have an NTC.

Look at the Knick roster last year, where they were, what they had and what they wanted to accomplish. Lets leave out the rebuild word and talk about the type of team that Perry, Mills and Jeff want to build. What do they always say? Max effort, play hard on BOTH ends and share the ball. I would say if those are your team goals than the #1 problem you have as an org, a coach, a roster, a GM, is Melo. He cant be coached. He cant be benched. At least not by Jeff and the Knicks.

So when some say the #1 problem was Melo I think thats real. Is he the cause? The root? Thats blame game. Ill pass. Can the Knicks be that kind of blue collar all effort share the ball team with Melo here? I think most posters can honestly answer that for themselves. Bottom line is whatever things were needed for MElo to play hard on D and share that ball were not feasible for the Knicks. Trading him was. #1 problem? *The* problem? Its hard to argue that any factor bigger in keeping the Knicks from that goal than moving Melo. Moving on from Rose AND Phil also helped create synergy and show that the HC has the support of the FO. Its translated immediately to a change on the court. Is there any bigger factor in that than Melo's departure? Lump Rose in there as well, but Rose was here one year. This pattern of play on the floor has been around a bit longer.

Doesnt matter now, but Melo certainly fits the profile of players we want to avoid in the future. Why are all the players playing hard now? What hasnt anyone has a problem with Rambis?

Chandler wrote:may I suggest we refocus this thread on Jeff and giving him credit when he does something well

does every thread have to get into who/what was more to blame in the past

we have a good thing going; it's fun to watch games again; let's keep positive energy moving

Point is Jeff was the same guy. He's in a position to do a lot more than he was last year.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:He has been great. I loved the hire but hated what happened last year. When it came out that KP had an issue with Jeff and the team lost every preseason game and the first three of the regular season I was sure that keeping him was a mistake. Glad I was wrong. It would be nice to have some roster and coaching continuity for a change.

Was a little too company man for the players Im guessing. After Phil was jettisoned, players got to see what Hornacek brought to the table.

Is it even possible that Jeff was still showing the same stuff last year and Fisher was good coach as well? As easy you find it to blame the triangle do you consider the presence of Melo and Rose detrimental to the impact the coach had? Players that refuse to play system basketball are not mentioned as the problem but it was the "triangle" that did it? The thing that we barely played for less than half a season was to blame but the idiots refusing to execute anything but clock wasting and shot jacking weren't why Jeff was hamstrung?

Before Phil and the triangle, Rambis was the problem, before Rambis it was Fisher. Before Fisher and Phil, Donnie Walsh was the problem, before Walsh it was MDA and before MDA it was Lin, before Lin it was Amare
Can you at least agree that during all these problems there was only one thing constant with the team and that's Melo? So maybe just maybe he was the problem?

Leap of faith - I know....

Very different circumstances. Fisher and the Knicks were winning with Melo and KP and then Melo messed up his ankle tripping over a ref against the CEltics. But that team seemed to have figured things out. However, Fisher had moved away from the triangle, had had the incident with Matt Barnes, he had his coaching staff working individually with small groups of players on skills (OKC style) and not teaching the triangle, he apparently wasn't communicating with Phil, and he was chasing at least two of his players girls. But prior to Melo getting hurt in the Celtics game, it looked like that team had something good going.

Hornacek had a good first year as a head coach and was respected as an assistant. But his second year in Phoenix he didn't take a stand when his assistants were fired by management. He probably would have lost his job but the rep of not standing up or going to the mat for his assistants and losing that team is going to be with him until he wins a bit. We all know what happened last year. The ball stopped and Rose and Melo would be difficult guys to get to buy into a system not suited for today's game.

I am glad Jeff has a shot at redemption. I am not sure what his best move would have been last year but he definitely didn't make it and he alienated the players in the process.

Fisher never ran full triangle even when the Knicks were winning. Even Shaq joked that we were running more of a square then the triangle early in that season when all eyes were on how the Knicks would look with Melo and the new pieces running the triangle. The difference was when Melo played like DadMelo. You didn't hear a word from Phil during this time frame when the Knicks were having success while not playing full triangle with Melo playing like DadMelo.

Phil then hired Jeff over a guy like Brian Shaw or Kurt Rambis to modernize the triangle. Because Jeff built up a rep as a innovative mind when it comes to scheming. This holds a lot of weight as it shows the flexibility Phil had towards the triangle and goes against the narrative. As well as the fact that Phil made the moves for Rose, Lee, and Noah though they backfired on him. He did so specifically to appease Melo's window which Melo was vocal about. This isn't to place blame at anyone. This is to show that Phil being a tyrannical dictator narrative while popular wasn't accurate. He made critical decisions to try and appease his best player to modernize the triangle and attempt to do something within Melo's window. What he wanted in return was for the ball not to stick.

I batted for Melo 100% during the MDA era. He took all that blame for everything and I felt that the fit just wasn't there between the 2. It wasn't about the blame game but clearly management only collected names without actually building complimentary pieces. I bring up MDA because his style of play was the modern way to play basketball. And yet Melo's style didn't fit. So when people say the players didn't want to play in an outdated style of play.... The track record is there from Karl(In terms of Karl's complaints), to MDA, to Phil.

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:He has been great. I loved the hire but hated what happened last year. When it came out that KP had an issue with Jeff and the team lost every preseason game and the first three of the regular season I was sure that keeping him was a mistake. Glad I was wrong. It would be nice to have some roster and coaching continuity for a change.

Was a little too company man for the players Im guessing. After Phil was jettisoned, players got to see what Hornacek brought to the table.

Is it even possible that Jeff was still showing the same stuff last year and Fisher was good coach as well? As easy you find it to blame the triangle do you consider the presence of Melo and Rose detrimental to the impact the coach had? Players that refuse to play system basketball are not mentioned as the problem but it was the "triangle" that did it? The thing that we barely played for less than half a season was to blame but the idiots refusing to execute anything but clock wasting and shot jacking weren't why Jeff was hamstrung?

Before Phil and the triangle, Rambis was the problem, before Rambis it was Fisher. Before Fisher and Phil, Donnie Walsh was the problem, before Walsh it was MDA and before MDA it was Lin, before Lin it was Amare
Can you at least agree that during all these problems there was only one thing constant with the team and that's Melo? So maybe just maybe he was the problem?

Leap of faith - I know....

KP was ROY runner up, with Melo as his teammate. Melo was very protective of Porzingis his rookie year, went at anyone who cheap shot KP. Could not have been a better teammate to Porzingis

I blame Rose for being one of the worst PGs in the league, and one of the worst 3 point shooters in the league, last season. His assist rate was below D-leaguers in just the East.

Melo leading the team in assists for an entire season from PF, wasn't enough to change the team's fortunes. Because there wasnt enough talent.

Again Melo was part of the problem at times, but not the problem. That would fall on who gave him the max with a no trade clause. The only reason we are having this conversation.

Only 3 players in the league have an NTC.

Ok so KP being ROY runner up was credit to Melo, but Melo not playing defense or not even trying was Phil's fault. Got it and this why I call out people who defend Melo. Because of this.

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:He has been great. I loved the hire but hated what happened last year. When it came out that KP had an issue with Jeff and the team lost every preseason game and the first three of the regular season I was sure that keeping him was a mistake. Glad I was wrong. It would be nice to have some roster and coaching continuity for a change.

Was a little too company man for the players Im guessing. After Phil was jettisoned, players got to see what Hornacek brought to the table.

Is it even possible that Jeff was still showing the same stuff last year and Fisher was good coach as well? As easy you find it to blame the triangle do you consider the presence of Melo and Rose detrimental to the impact the coach had? Players that refuse to play system basketball are not mentioned as the problem but it was the "triangle" that did it? The thing that we barely played for less than half a season was to blame but the idiots refusing to execute anything but clock wasting and shot jacking weren't why Jeff was hamstrung?

Before Phil and the triangle, Rambis was the problem, before Rambis it was Fisher. Before Fisher and Phil, Donnie Walsh was the problem, before Walsh it was MDA and before MDA it was Lin, before Lin it was Amare
Can you at least agree that during all these problems there was only one thing constant with the team and that's Melo? So maybe just maybe he was the problem?

Leap of faith - I know....

KP was ROY runner up, with Melo as his teammate. Melo was very protective of Porzingis his rookie year, went at anyone who cheap shot KP. Could not have been a better teammate to Porzingis

I blame Rose for being one of the worst PGs in the league, and one of the worst 3 point shooters in the league, last season. His assist rate was below D-leaguers in just the East.

Melo leading the team in assists for an entire season from PF, wasn't enough to change the team's fortunes. Because there wasnt enough talent.

Again Melo was part of the problem at times, but not the problem. That would fall on who gave him the max with a no trade clause. The only reason we are having this conversation.

Only 3 players in the league have an NTC.

Ok so KP being ROY runner up was credit to Melo, but Melo not playing defense or not even trying was Phil's fault. Got it and this why I call out people who defend Melo. Because of this.

Melo wasn't the hindrance that some claim he was on KP's development. That was my point.

Not enough to say that Melo was part of the problem at times, which he was. I have to provide ample documentation, while absolving Phil Jackson of any responsibilty for his many bad decisions. Not enough time on this board pointing out the flaws Melo's game, even though I was bringing up "Hero Ball" before anyone else on this board, at least one of the first. My level of animosity for Carmelo Anthony is clearly not to your liking. I dont hate the man, do you?

Sorry, cant do it. This stuff is better suited for religious fundamentalists, not for bball discussions.