So what makes them work so well together?

My theory is that Kanter is so intense in the paint (offensive end) that he completely consumes his defender (who would also happen to be the most bruising defender) and half consumes whatever other defender thinking of help defense

This makes it that much easier to move for his midrange game (plus generally have a weaker defender on him)

On the defensive end, Kanter has the ability to limit his focus. KP can be the rim protector, and Kanter can stay a little more focused, limit mistakes

Lastly, I think they both set the tone for the other. KP gets to see Kanter's intensity on the glass and move toward that; Kanter (to a lesser degree) sees KP focusing on both ends of the floor and seems to be taking defense more seriously (i.e., not happy trading baskets)

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:yea spot on. I have argued since he's been here KP should be a 4 not a 5. If you pair him with Kanter you MUST put your most rugged guy on him or you will be consumed in the paint and on the boards. The key is good defense on the wings. You can expect to have KP and Kanter chasing penetrating guards all day. But we have seen when our wings are locking it down that this size becomes a true force.

Keep a big center next to KP. That means resign Kanter, move KOQ for wing help and keep Noah/Willy as backup/bench or even a little time at the 4.
Keep the focus on building defense on the wings. Frank is obviously a revelation. Dotson appears to be defensive minded and a great athlete. If we could find a young athletic 2-way wing in the draft or open market that would push us along as well.

FWIW this is why I think it's a mistake to move Kanter. KOQ, Noah, and even Willy don't complement in the same way even though they have commendable skills. E.g., KOQ and Noah, and to a lesser degree, do not command the attention in the low post the same way. Thus KP more likely to get thugged up, double teamed

Im great with keeping Kanter long term, assuming this trend continues and I think it can. I think he's energized by playing and living here. He cant get closer to home. These things matter.

Whatever direction we take I hope we are able to capitalize on assets along the way. IF we arent resigning KOQ what can we get for him? I do understand you dont get something for every player you lose, and there is some natural progression. Maybe we simply get what we can from KOQ, he resigns somewhere else and next year those minutes are Willy/Noah to fight over. That might be ok also.

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:yea spot on. I have argued since he's been here KP should be a 4 not a 5. If you pair him with Kanter you MUST put your most rugged guy on him or you will be consumed in the paint and on the boards. The key is good defense on the wings. You can expect to have KP and Kanter chasing penetrating guards all day. But we have seen when our wings are locking it down that this size becomes a true force.

Keep a big center next to KP. That means resign Kanter, move KOQ for wing help and keep Noah/Willy as backup/bench or even a little time at the 4.
Keep the focus on building defense on the wings. Frank is obviously a revelation. Dotson appears to be defensive minded and a great athlete. If we could find a young athletic 2-way wing in the draft or open market that would push us along as well.

FWIW this is why I think it's a mistake to move Kanter. KOQ, Noah, and even Willy don't complement in the same way even though they have commendable skills. E.g., KOQ and Noah, and to a lesser degree, do not command the attention in the low post the same way. Thus KP more likely to get thugged up, double teamed

Im open to a few possibilities. Trading Kanter is one of them. Its just about looking for areas to improve and much depends on how you value Willy. If you watched him this summer he looked like a center of the future who could man that spot for the next 10 years plus. We know he's a great rebounder, passer and scorer. Defense remains a question but like Kanter he's willing.

Im great with keeping Kanter long term, assuming this trend continues and I think it can. I think he's energized by playing and living here. He cant get closer to home. These things matter.

Whatever direction we take I hope we are able to capitalize on assets along the way. IF we arent resigning KOQ what can we get for him? I do understand you dont get something for every player you lose, and there is some natural progression. Maybe we simply get what we can from KOQ, he resigns somewhere else and next year those minutes are Willy/Noah to fight over. That might be ok also.

Chandler wrote:I am convinced of the merits of this pairing.

When I was in the NFL, this is a methodology that I know a lot of the scouts used back then. I don't know what they specifically called it, I called it the "Anomaly Test"

Take either the entire unit or side of the ball or entire team if you have to, and if you want to evaluate one single player, imagine him on a roster where everyone else in said unit is "Replacement Level" i.e. exactly at league average.

Think of Scott Brosius with the Yankees, not his Yankee dynasty years, but just about every other year of his 3B MLB career. He was basically a league average 3B. Imagine a roster full of those types. Serviceable. Useful, but not elite and not creating more answers than questions.

You don't judge Kanter's individual value by measuring him just paired to Zinger. You judge him if he was on the floor with four REPLACEMENT LEVEL players. And this is where the problem begins. You pull Zinger off the roster or he gets injured, and you stick a league average guy in his place and all the warts about Kanter will start to show up.

You should pay a guy based on what he can do given the "Anomaly Test" where he is the outlier against the league average given market conditions. Not what he can do based on some very specific volatile circumstances that are fluid and have no projectible consistency.

Yes, he's playing pretty good now. Happy for him, happy for the Knicks. But it's only been a few games and it doesn't wash away his previous years of NBA production and history and question marks.

You don't buy an engagement ring after one great blowjob do you? (Well maybe some of you guys would, which would actually explain quite a bit....)

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:yea spot on. I have argued since he's been here KP should be a 4 not a 5. If you pair him with Kanter you MUST put your most rugged guy on him or you will be consumed in the paint and on the boards. The key is good defense on the wings. You can expect to have KP and Kanter chasing penetrating guards all day. But we have seen when our wings are locking it down that this size becomes a true force.

Keep a big center next to KP. That means resign Kanter, move KOQ for wing help and keep Noah/Willy as backup/bench or even a little time at the 4.
Keep the focus on building defense on the wings. Frank is obviously a revelation. Dotson appears to be defensive minded and a great athlete. If we could find a young athletic 2-way wing in the draft or open market that would push us along as well.

FWIW this is why I think it's a mistake to move Kanter. KOQ, Noah, and even Willy don't complement in the same way even though they have commendable skills. E.g., KOQ and Noah, and to a lesser degree, do not command the attention in the low post the same way. Thus KP more likely to get thugged up, double teamed

Im open to a few possibilities. Trading Kanter is one of them. Its just about looking for areas to improve and much depends on how you value Willy. If you watched him this summer he looked like a center of the future who could man that spot for the next 10 years plus. We know he's a great rebounder, passer and scorer. Defense remains a question but like Kanter he's willing.

Im great with keeping Kanter long term, assuming this trend continues and I think it can. I think he's energized by playing and living here. He cant get closer to home. These things matter.

Whatever direction we take I hope we are able to capitalize on assets along the way. IF we arent resigning KOQ what can we get for him? I do understand you dont get something for every player you lose, and there is some natural progression. Maybe we simply get what we can from KOQ, he resigns somewhere else and next year those minutes are Willy/Noah to fight over. That might be ok also.

If I were supreme ruler, I would be using a three-headed approach to center (BTW Bulls used to use 3).

I'd have Kanter and KP starting: the force is strong.

I'd tell Willy to stop sulking and start thinking 6th man. He can be a PnR partner with a more offensive focus, playing to his strengths, getting more touches

I'd have KOQ playing backups to center and pf as need be

Plenty of fouls to give; moment center eases up on energy, next guy up

Noah is the odd man out. Personally (and perhaps because I can't help myself from being overly optimistic) I think he still has value, but given his age and skill set he has to go. If someone offered us a whopper for Willy or KOQ we'd have to consider it and then think of Noah as 3d

Similarly, I don't think Kanter has been as poor as advertised defensively... I think he's improved his d, as well as his conditioning. In the past he's been asked to be the go-to-scorer on the second team. He isn't being asked to do that anymore and he probably has more to give on the defensive side

I definitely would not have anticipated this pairing working, but it certainly is, and I would have no problem keeping this together. Some of the best advice I ever got in my life was 'don't question the blessings' and this falls into that bucket

TripleThreat wrote:

Chandler wrote:I am convinced of the merits of this pairing.

When I was in the NFL, this is a methodology that I know a lot of the scouts used back then. I don't know what they specifically called it, I called it the "Anomaly Test"

Take either the entire unit or side of the ball or entire team if you have to, and if you want to evaluate one single player, imagine him on a roster where everyone else in said unit is "Replacement Level" i.e. exactly at league average.

Think of Scott Brosius with the Yankees, not his Yankee dynasty years, but just about every other year of his 3B MLB career. He was basically a league average 3B. Imagine a roster full of those types. Serviceable. Useful, but not elite and not creating more answers than questions.

You don't judge Kanter's individual value by measuring him just paired to Zinger. You judge him if he was on the floor with four REPLACEMENT LEVEL players. And this is where the problem begins. You pull Zinger off the roster or he gets injured, and you stick a league average guy in his place and all the warts about Kanter will start to show up.

You should pay a guy based on what he can do given the "Anomaly Test" where he is the outlier against the league average given market conditions. Not what he can do based on some very specific volatile circumstances that are fluid and have no projectible consistency.

Yes, he's playing pretty good now. Happy for him, happy for the Knicks. But it's only been a few games and it doesn't wash away his previous years of NBA production and history and question marks.

You don't buy an engagement ring after one great blowjob do you? (Well maybe some of you guys would, which would actually explain quite a bit....)

I agree with a lot of what you say 0-- and on the last point I guess it matters how great it was. :-)

But it's also the case that great teams are just that, "teams" -- not assemblies of random pieces.

there is a real synergy with Kanter and KP. Kanter is hiding some of KP's warts, and vice versa

Celtics (who I respect but also hate) have been very good at hiding players warts and playing to their strengths. That's why I would never want to trade with the Celtics. You're getting someone in the hope that he'll play for you like he did for the c's and then when he arrives he plays for you just like he played for everyone else (except for the Cs --- IT comes to mind, perhaps Crowder too)

Kanter & KP -- are a nice match ===== Willy in no way shape or form would provide such a dynamic contrast to KP.

nixluva wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:Agree with initial poster -- Kanter plays with so much energy/passion/effort/physicality that he is simply requiring a lot of attention -- plus he is doing dirty-work where KP can then use his tremendous size/athleticism to make the highlight type skill plays.

Kanter & KP -- are a nice match ===== Willy in no way shape or form would provide such a dynamic contrast to KP.

Willy would still add something good next to KP IMO. It's just a little different. Willy has a little more developing to do, but his raw talent is still pretty darned high. He's a very good rebounder and post player. Sets excellent Picks. Is a very good Roll Man in PnR. Willy looks like he could be a good passer as well. Willy has the beginnings of a perimeter game. He has a High IQ as well.

Kanter is just so darned PHYSICAL and a bit more mature than Willy so he's ready for a starting role. Willy needs to be groomed to provide a similar level of production. He's worth the effort of further development.

Nix why wouldn't you want Willy as a 6th man then, to emphasize his offense

Kanter is down low and freeing space for KP

WIlly would be up high with the pick, and while that works for him or the guard, how does they create synergy with KP?