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10-11 Dallas Mavericks route?
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newyorknewyork
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11/6/2017  6:38 PM
KP/Dirk surrounded by high end intangible role players that complimented each other perfectly.

Tyson, Marion, Kidd, Terry, Barea, Peja, Stevenson, Haywood. (Had Caron Butler but got injured)

Kanter(Noah), Hardaway, Frank, KOQ(Willy), Lee(Dotson), Jack, Dougie.

We obviously aren't on that level at the moment and some adjustments will need to be made to the roster. But should that be the formula over star chasing? At least until we build up credibility where stars come to us?

AUTOADVERT
Uptown
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11/6/2017  7:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/6/2017  7:58 PM
First off, that Mavs team was loaded with Vets where as we are young...To me, Lee and Hardaway playing too many extended minutes together can hurt us defensively against most teams....

That Mavs championship run was just 7 yrs ago, but it feels like decades ago when you realize how much the game has changed. None of the teams during that season cracked 100 in terms of pace, now more than half the teams in the league are over 100. We are now in the so-called super team era ( GS, OKC, Cavs, Rockets) so we have to wonder will this trend continue? Most professional leagues are copy-cat leagues and since the Warriors won, so I assume most teams will follow that trend; pace and pace, 3 pt shooters, 2-way players, etc.

I'm torn because I want to win but Michael Porter is the piece we need at SF and will give us a legit 2nd option to KP.

GustavBahler
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11/6/2017  8:06 PM
Dirk was a much more seasoned vet, and Kidd is one of the 5 best PGs to ever play the game. Similar enough to make the playoffs, Im guessing. Thats the first step. Been a long time since the Knicks could manage that, even longer since they could manage to do that regularly. I would be really psyched if we could make the playoffs this season with the talent we have now. Would point to even better things in the future.
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11/6/2017  9:23 PM
The concept is plausible. I assume we aren't talking soon, but in the future. When these guys are in their primes. KP obviously compares to Dirk, and maybe even favorably if you factor in defense. Hardaway can become the Terry type who lights it up as a second scoring option. Frank isn't ever going to be Kidd of course, but we aren't talking about Kidd in his prime. Dallas version of Kidd was 36 years old and not that elite PG, but he was a veteran facilitator who made open threes and played good defense. That can easily be Frank. And while Chandler and Kanter are nothing alike, the way they compliment the star bigs is comparable. The last big piece would be finding that Marion, do-it-all SF, which obviously will be tough.
GustavBahler
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11/6/2017  9:41 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/6/2017  9:41 PM
Knixkik wrote:The concept is plausible. I assume we aren't talking soon, but in the future. When these guys are in their primes. KP obviously compares to Dirk, and maybe even favorably if you factor in defense. Hardaway can become the Terry type who lights it up as a second scoring option. Frank isn't ever going to be Kidd of course, but we aren't talking about Kidd in his prime. Dallas version of Kidd was 36 years old and not that elite PG, but he was a veteran facilitator who made open threes and played good defense. That can easily be Frank. And while Chandler and Kanter are nothing alike, the way they compliment the star bigs is comparable. The last big piece would be finding that Marion, do-it-all SF, which obviously will be tough.

Disagree that Kidd was just a veteran facilitator. He could barely get up and down the floor in NY, and still led the team to a 54 win season. One of the smartest PGs to ever play the game.

TripleThreat
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11/6/2017  9:53 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:KP/Dirk surrounded by high end intangible role players that complimented each other perfectly.

Tyson, Marion, Kidd, Terry, Barea, Peja, Stevenson, Haywood. (Had Caron Butler but got injured)


From a resource management perspective, teams were able to "stack" depth by using the Mid Level Exception over and over again against a soft cap and before the advent of the repeater tax. Also many teams took advantage of the Amnesty Provision extended in the CBA before that era. ( Mavs don't go anywhere if they were still stuck with Michael Finley's contract)

Kidd became a Maverick because Keith Van Horn was used as a contract filler, when he was a retired player who simply didn't file his paperwork as a favor to Mark Cuban.

All those loopholes are now closed.

The best way to stack depth down the road is a sweeping change to the entire system, widespread use of non guaranteed contracts. This would infuse the market with useful veterans whose earning power would readjust to actual market conditions ( case in point, STAT under a NGC system, would get cut by the Knick, but sign a 2 year, 4 million dollar deal somewhere, where he could actually help a veteran team without breaking their cap situation.

Guaranteed contracts, many often based on projections factoring in positional value and positional scarcity, simply kill the ability for teams to actually pack depth on their roster. If you are willing to exponentially go into the repeater tax zone, OK, it's more feasible, but guaranteed contracts are part of the major depth problem many teams face around the league.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
newyorknewyork
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11/6/2017  9:59 PM
I don't believe we are that yet. And like I stated we need to make some adjustments to the roster. Main point isn't that we are a championship team. But that our first step should maybe be to build on what we have. Which is quality depth.

KP is gonna drop 25-30pts per game.
THjr is a 16-18pt gunner
Kanter is gonna drop 14pts in 25-28mins as a bruiser with no real plays called for him.
Dougie can be groomed as a feature scorer off the bench. Ideally used the way Korver is coming off screens. In constant movement.

4 guys that can be groomed in defined offensive roles.

Frank, Jack, Lee, Dotson, KOQ, Noah, Willy provide those intangibles and are skilled enough to score off the pressure the others take from them.

Pieces needed
-A speedy scoring PG to compliment Frank. Provide that extra offensive boost team up with Dougie to create those looks for him.
-A big athletic defensive forward who can rebound and provide even more length in between Frank an KP. Causing all types of havoc after Frank forces passes and KP offers help. Can slide in as a small ball 4 in spot duty. Also compliment the wing rotation of THjr, Dotson, & Dougie. A 6'8 or 6'9 Dotson would be a dream.
-Continue to develop Frank, Dotson as play makers.

-Willy may have to take Kanter's role, Noah may have to take KOQs role in order to maintain cap space to add the higher quality pieces.

What Dallas did was fill defined roles with high quality pieces. From the way the players are showing to play. The roles needed are becoming clear.(Like having a banger like Kanter next to KP). Having defined stability and clear cut roles that compliment each persons skill set will lead to sustained success. I think finding those pieces and keeping the depth will be easier to do then landing that star player. But that star player may come after we established some consistent success.

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11/6/2017  10:02 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/6/2017  10:02 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Knixkik wrote:The concept is plausible. I assume we aren't talking soon, but in the future. When these guys are in their primes. KP obviously compares to Dirk, and maybe even favorably if you factor in defense. Hardaway can become the Terry type who lights it up as a second scoring option. Frank isn't ever going to be Kidd of course, but we aren't talking about Kidd in his prime. Dallas version of Kidd was 36 years old and not that elite PG, but he was a veteran facilitator who made open threes and played good defense. That can easily be Frank. And while Chandler and Kanter are nothing alike, the way they compliment the star bigs is comparable. The last big piece would be finding that Marion, do-it-all SF, which obviously will be tough.

Disagree that Kidd was just a veteran facilitator. He could barely get up and down the floor in NY, and still led the team to a 54 win season. One of the smartest PGs to ever play the game.

Well i don't disagree he had major impact on both the Mavs and the Knicks. But he wasn't prime Kidd. He could barely score that last year in Dallas and wasn't creating easy buckets for people like before. He was just a really good leader who could impact the game on both ends at that point.

newyorknewyork
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11/6/2017  10:03 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:KP/Dirk surrounded by high end intangible role players that complimented each other perfectly.

Tyson, Marion, Kidd, Terry, Barea, Peja, Stevenson, Haywood. (Had Caron Butler but got injured)


From a resource management perspective, teams were able to "stack" depth by using the Mid Level Exception over and over again against a soft cap and before the advent of the repeater tax. Also many teams took advantage of the Amnesty Provision extended in the CBA before that era. ( Mavs don't go anywhere if they were still stuck with Michael Finley's contract)

Kidd became a Maverick because Keith Van Horn was used as a contract filler, when he was a retired player who simply didn't file his paperwork as a favor to Mark Cuban.

All those loopholes are now closed.

The best way to stack depth down the road is a sweeping change to the entire system, widespread use of non guaranteed contracts. This would infuse the market with useful veterans whose earning power would readjust to actual market conditions ( case in point, STAT under a NGC system, would get cut by the Knick, but sign a 2 year, 4 million dollar deal somewhere, where he could actually help a veteran team without breaking their cap situation.

Guaranteed contracts, many often based on projections factoring in positional value and positional scarcity, simply kill the ability for teams to actually pack depth on their roster. If you are willing to exponentially go into the repeater tax zone, OK, it's more feasible, but guaranteed contracts are part of the major depth problem many teams face around the league.

I believe we are in a position to have depth given the players we have now, Potential cap space, and 2 drafted picks coming up. Maybe we even make a move to secure a long term piece on a cost friendly deal with some of these players value being pretty solid.

GustavBahler
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11/6/2017  10:09 PM
Knixkik wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Knixkik wrote:The concept is plausible. I assume we aren't talking soon, but in the future. When these guys are in their primes. KP obviously compares to Dirk, and maybe even favorably if you factor in defense. Hardaway can become the Terry type who lights it up as a second scoring option. Frank isn't ever going to be Kidd of course, but we aren't talking about Kidd in his prime. Dallas version of Kidd was 36 years old and not that elite PG, but he was a veteran facilitator who made open threes and played good defense. That can easily be Frank. And while Chandler and Kanter are nothing alike, the way they compliment the star bigs is comparable. The last big piece would be finding that Marion, do-it-all SF, which obviously will be tough.

Disagree that Kidd was just a veteran facilitator. He could barely get up and down the floor in NY, and still led the team to a 54 win season. One of the smartest PGs to ever play the game.

Well i don't disagree he had major impact on both the Mavs and the Knicks. But he wasn't prime Kidd. He could barely score that last year in Dallas and wasn't creating easy buckets for people like before. He was just a really good leader who could impact the game on both ends at that point.

Fair enough. Prime Kidd or not, his abilities as a floor general, his playoff experience, still made him very dangerous. When I hear "veteran facilitator", I think of the many PGs who have gone through NY who couldnt even touch a 36 year old Kidd.

newyorknewyork
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11/6/2017  10:10 PM
Knixkik wrote:The concept is plausible. I assume we aren't talking soon, but in the future. When these guys are in their primes. KP obviously compares to Dirk, and maybe even favorably if you factor in defense. Hardaway can become the Terry type who lights it up as a second scoring option. Frank isn't ever going to be Kidd of course, but we aren't talking about Kidd in his prime. Dallas version of Kidd was 36 years old and not that elite PG, but he was a veteran facilitator who made open threes and played good defense. That can easily be Frank. And while Chandler and Kanter are nothing alike, the way they compliment the star bigs is comparable. The last big piece would be finding that Marion, do-it-all SF, which obviously will be tough.

That Forward will be the hardest to find. BUT with Frank and KP's defensive potential. They will make his job a lot easier. Guys like Crowder, Covington, Aminu molds. Big long, athletic dudes who can cover ground jack up the passing lanes off of Frank's pressure and KPs help defense. And knock down the 3.

A scoring PG can be had.

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11/6/2017  10:52 PM
NYNY .... Nice comparison but ur way off .. Head Coach Carlisle plus HOF Kidd equal FINAL contenders .. Owner Cuban knew what he was doing when he traded for Kidd n sign coach Rick Carlisle .. Dirk was not going to take the Mavs pass the first round of the playoffs.
I remember the to-to soft Dirk throughout his first 6 years in the NBA league when the West-Coast had all the dominating Big-men in the league .. Dirk could never matchup with any of these big men .. Lakers Shaq, Spurs Duncan, Blazers Rasheed, Wolves KG, Kings Webber, Suns Amare .. when the majority of these big-men went to play in the East-Coast .. thats when Dirk got the light of fame in the playoffs.
In other words .. I want KP to be 10 times better than Dirk.
newyorknewyork
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11/6/2017  11:02 PM
Kemet wrote:NYNY .... Nice comparison but ur way off .. Head Coach Carlisle plus HOF Kidd equal FINAL contenders .. Owner Cuban knew what he was doing when he traded for Kidd n sign coach Rick Carlisle .. Dirk was not going to take the Mavs pass the first round of the playoffs.
I remember the to-to soft Dirk throughout his first 6 years in the NBA league when the West-Coast had all the dominating Big-men in the league .. Dirk could never matchup with any of these big men .. Lakers Shaq, Spurs Duncan, Blazers Rasheed, Wolves KG, Kings Webber, Suns Amare .. when the majority of these big-men went to play in the East-Coast .. thats when Dirk got the light of fame in the playoffs.
In other words .. I want KP to be 10 times better than Dirk.

Wasn't really comparing Dirk with KP. Was just fooling around with the KP/Dirk comment. KP has waay more potential defensively then Dirk did. And has just as much offensive potential.

Only thing im really looking at is how Dallas was able to build a deep TEAM of high quality complimentary pieces. That may be the route Knicks could go as we build up our credibility. I believe we are in position to do this and our situation calls for it.

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11/7/2017  12:56 AM
I agree with this ny and I think we are a pseudo model of it right now-- I'm sure with your post you do as well.
I'm going to say go the Lebron route first. Kp and lbj on the same team next year with good role players will be too much for any team in the east. Now there is the" I don't want to win w Lebron" crowd and I respect that too. And if not I think you're route is probably the model we take. Kp the center with great role players.
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11/7/2017  7:49 AM
Uptown wrote:First off, that Mavs team was loaded with Vets where as we are young...To me, Lee and Hardaway playing too many extended minutes together can hurt us defensively against most teams....

That Mavs championship run was just 7 yrs ago, but it feels like decades ago when you realize how much the game has changed. None of the teams during that season cracked 100 in terms of pace, now more than half the teams in the league are over 100. We are now in the so-called super team era ( GS, OKC, Cavs, Rockets) so we have to wonder will this trend continue? Most professional leagues are copy-cat leagues and since the Warriors won, so I assume most teams will follow that trend; pace and pace, 3 pt shooters, 2-way players, etc.

I'm torn because I want to win but Michael Porter is the piece we need at SF and will give us a legit 2nd option to KP.

The D’Antoni Suns would be ranked 26th in pace in today’s NBA. When I heard that stat it was crazy.

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11/7/2017  8:54 AM
BRIGGS wrote:I agree with this ny and I think we are a pseudo model of it right now-- I'm sure with your post you do as well.
I'm going to say go the Lebron route first. Kp and lbj on the same team next year with good role players will be too much for any team in the east. Now there is the" I don't want to win w Lebron" crowd and I respect that too. And if not I think you're route is probably the model we take. Kp the center with great role players.

It's always worth a try for Lebron, although unlikely. The following summer, Middleton has a player option. Can milwaukee afford to keep him? They will have to make a decision on Parker and Brogdon by then too. Middleton is still only 26, can shoot, defend, and serve as a secondary playmaker. Maybe he wants more exposure as he isn't a household name in Milwaukee. Would be an ideal fit at SF here.

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11/7/2017  9:04 AM
KP is 22 and already one of the best scorer in NBA, i think in 2-3 years he will be unstopable, that is the right time to go for chips

free agents will stand in a line this summer to play with KP

Irving wanted to play with KP when asked for trade :)

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11/7/2017  10:10 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:KP/Dirk surrounded by high end intangible role players that complimented each other perfectly.

Tyson, Marion, Kidd, Terry, Barea, Peja, Stevenson, Haywood. (Had Caron Butler but got injured)

Kanter(Noah), Hardaway, Frank, KOQ(Willy), Lee(Dotson), Jack, Dougie.

We obviously aren't on that level at the moment and some adjustments will need to be made to the roster. But should that be the formula over star chasing? At least until we build up credibility where stars come to us?

I know Dirk was that big piece that lead them to that title but don't discount what having one of the best ever and smartest PG's ever did for that team in J.Kidd which we don't have.

10-11 Dallas Mavericks route?

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