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fishmike
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10/27/2017  12:55 PM
the whole "build around" thing is some silly notion that allows fans to wank over how some good player on their roster is going to "lead them to a title."

Its so silly. You build, add and grow. Right now KP is the best talent on the team. That is all we know. For years people said Mavs wouldnt win with Irk (cause there is no D).

I like what the Wolves did. Aquired a bunch of young guys, let them grow a bit and stay flexible.

Every situation is really unique. It starts with adding high caliber talent and building a complimentary roster. The only really successful team that is "built around" a guy is Lebron and the Cavs.

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NYKBocker
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10/27/2017  1:16 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:Switching from building a team around Melo to building a team around KP is NOT a rebuild. Its going from starfukkA to starfukkB. This is why we need tho stop trying tho build teams around people and demand they start plaguing basketball the right way. We weren't able to build teams around Ewing, Houston, Marbury, Amare, Melo ...
At some point out should sink in that this is a STUPID approach.

You need to start somewhere. You start with the best player you can find then go from them. KP is the starting point.

We have had lots of different starting points and we are yet to get started. How about we just rethink the approach? Do we really need to keep doing the same **** and expect different results?

Building anything starts with a foundation. The approach is that you need to decide what foundation you want to lay down. Knicks has decided that KP is this foundation along with Frank and hopefully Willy. Unless there is another way of building anything then this is the only way to go.

I mean...what approach do you think we should be doing?

The approach we need to use is NOT DECIDING on a core till the team actually evolves into one. I love KP and I think he will be a great player, but it's not a sure thing and the so called "core" is completely unproven. To act like that is a settled matter and then justify trades based on it is what is wrong with the approach. Keep your options open till you have a confirmed winner, then think about building around it. No need to commit to "future potential" because if it doesn't pan out, you have wasted another 10 years. I am not saying we shouldn't offer KP a max contract if he deserves it, I am saying we shouldn't start justifying trades assuming he is enough of a core for a championship team. He is FAR from showing that, Melo etc. NEVER showed that. And no you don't need to win a chip to decide you have a confirmed winner. You need to be a legitimate playoff team 2-3 years in a row with flexibility and room tho grow. Look at the Bucks etc.

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Being fluid and not deciding on a core until you have a team is just foolish to me. I mean you can be in a state of flux for a couple of years if you keep changing your core/starting-point and never accomplish anything. How exactly are you going to get a confirmed winner if you are rebuilding? You select a starting point then work from there. Why would it be another wasted 10 years? To me travel is as good as the destination. I want to build our team the right way. Build around KP because then you have a direction. Surround him with players that will make a team that will give you the best winning scenario.

Look at the Celtics. They were meandering in mediocrity because they didn't have a starting point. Then they lucked out and got Isaiah Thomas. They put a stake in the ground and said let's surround him with hard nosed defensive players that can shoot 3s to cover his weakness and accentuate his strengths. Now they have a pretty good team. Then they flipped him for a better model.

You say the Bucks. Well, they chose the Greek Freak as their starting point and built around him. They are doing it the right way.

One thing both the Celtics and the Bucks have though are really good head coaches. I am very iffy on Jeff.

NYKBocker
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10/27/2017  1:20 PM
fishmike wrote:the whole "build around" thing is some silly notion that allows fans to wank over how some good player on their roster is going to "lead them to a title."

Its so silly. You build, add and grow. Right now KP is the best talent on the team. That is all we know. For years people said Mavs wouldnt win with Irk (cause there is no D).

I like what the Wolves did. Aquired a bunch of young guys, let them grow a bit and stay flexible.

Every situation is really unique. It starts with adding high caliber talent and building a complimentary roster. The only really successful team that is "built around" a guy is Lebron and the Cavs.

The Wolves are building around Karl Anthony Towns.

meloshouldgo
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10/27/2017  1:59 PM
fishmike wrote:the whole "build around" thing is some silly notion that allows fans to wank over how some good player on their roster is going to "lead them to a title."

Its so silly. You build, add and grow. Right now KP is the best talent on the team. That is all we know. For years people said Mavs wouldnt win with Irk (cause there is no D).

I like what the Wolves did. Aquired a bunch of young guys, let them grow a bit and stay flexible.

Every situation is really unique. It starts with adding high caliber talent and building a complimentary roster. The only really successful team that is "built around" a guy is Lebron and the Cavs.

Agree

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
meloshouldgo
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10/27/2017  2:11 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:Switching from building a team around Melo to building a team around KP is NOT a rebuild. Its going from starfukkA to starfukkB. This is why we need tho stop trying tho build teams around people and demand they start plaguing basketball the right way. We weren't able to build teams around Ewing, Houston, Marbury, Amare, Melo ...
At some point out should sink in that this is a STUPID approach.

You need to start somewhere. You start with the best player you can find then go from them. KP is the starting point.

We have had lots of different starting points and we are yet to get started. How about we just rethink the approach? Do we really need to keep doing the same **** and expect different results?

Building anything starts with a foundation. The approach is that you need to decide what foundation you want to lay down. Knicks has decided that KP is this foundation along with Frank and hopefully Willy. Unless there is another way of building anything then this is the only way to go.

I mean...what approach do you think we should be doing?

The approach we need to use is NOT DECIDING on a core till the team actually evolves into one. I love KP and I think he will be a great player, but it's not a sure thing and the so called "core" is completely unproven. To act like that is a settled matter and then justify trades based on it is what is wrong with the approach. Keep your options open till you have a confirmed winner, then think about building around it. No need to commit to "future potential" because if it doesn't pan out, you have wasted another 10 years. I am not saying we shouldn't offer KP a max contract if he deserves it, I am saying we shouldn't start justifying trades assuming he is enough of a core for a championship team. He is FAR from showing that, Melo etc. NEVER showed that. And no you don't need to win a chip to decide you have a confirmed winner. You need to be a legitimate playoff team 2-3 years in a row with flexibility and room tho grow. Look at the Bucks etc.

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Being fluid and not deciding on a core until you have a team is just foolish to me. I mean you can be in a state of flux for a couple of years if you keep changing your core/starting-point and never accomplish anything. How exactly are you going to get a confirmed winner if you are rebuilding? You select a starting point then work from there. Why would it be another wasted 10 years? To me travel is as good as the destination. I want to build our team the right way. Build around KP because then you have a direction. Surround him with players that will make a team that will give you the best winning scenario.

Look at the Celtics. They were meandering in mediocrity because they didn't have a starting point. Then they lucked out and got Isaiah Thomas. They put a stake in the ground and said let's surround him with hard nosed defensive players that can shoot 3s to cover his weakness and accentuate his strengths. Now they have a pretty good team. Then they flipped him for a better model.

You say the Bucks. Well, they chose the Greek Freak as their starting point and built around him. They are doing it the right way.

One thing both the Celtics and the Bucks have though are really good head coaches. I am very iffy on Jeff.

LOL - the Celtics help make my point. They didn't mortgage their future (draft picks) or other young players out take on long term commitments on one dimensional players to build their roster. I have no issue with acquiring talent to put around KP. I have an issue justifying players that don't fit like Kanter (no defense), THJR (no defense) on large contracts that cripple our flexibility. Do you see players like that on the Celtics or Bucks?

Yes you need to start somewhere. But what you have now are maybe some of the raw material to build a foundation. To act like we already have a foundation in place is what i take issue with. These kids will meed to pit in the work, log a lot of minutes playing with each other, develop a team identity a style of play and show that its sustainable. Then you can call it a foundation. And till they did that all we have is bunch of individual talent that ain't going nowhere fast.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
Bonn1997
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10/27/2017  4:02 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
jskinny35 wrote:Just to stir the pot... would KP for 2 solid young players make sense? Instead of 1 unicorn we get 2 quality young players to add to our talentless pool? Not sure we should do it, but trying to make the point that everyone is available at a price. Should we put all our eggs in his basket or spread them out? The PHX one would make me strongly consider it...

KP for J.Jackson and M.Chriss?

KP for Zach LaVine and Lauri M and future pick?

KP and player for Harrison Barnes and Nerlens Noel?

To answer someone's previous question, the reason this is a topic today because he's coming off of a bad game. There's 79 games to play and 22-yo KP's third season. I think it's only logical to defer this entire topic until June.

Or the rest of us can have fun talking about it and you can just include yourself in June?? As i said, i love KP and am his biggest fan and have been since we drafted him but the Knicks as a franchise comes first for me and i think with the right return for KP we could put together a better young team but it has to be the right return or i obviously wouldn't make the trade. I have no problem keeping KP and re-signing him but KP does come with some negatives about him and his game and i'm not sure he's the #1 piece on a championship team. He's easily a #2 piece just not a #1 piece IMO. The injury concerns are there for a kid as tall and lanky as he is, i don't see much of an inside game from him because he's still not strong enough to go up against these bigger guys, he's too slow top guard most PF's and too weak to guard the centers. There's no way that these things can't be concerns for any of you guys cause they're all realistic concerns.

If the question is, should the next trade KP if they're guaranteed to get a better return, the answer is of course yes. There really is a much a of discussion to be had about that, is there?

What the return might be and IF it will be better than KP seems to be the subject ripe for discussion.

And on that note, you just punched a LOT of holes in KP's game. So the better question is why are you expecting this huge return despite all the red flags you think are realistic concerns.

This reads to me like a classic message board argument that we all know his flaws, other teams don't, so we'll get a king's ransom and laugh all the way to the bank while KP never becomes that superstar the other team expects him to be.

How some fans do not understand that the biggest flaw of the concept of trading, your newly declared, franchise player is not that a better return may be had but rather that a change of direction, after just 4 games, is dysfunction at its highest form.


Keeping KP is fine but building a winner around him will be impossible because of all the other bad decisions the FO has made. You know how hard it will be to build a true contender once KP gets a max deal? Its not about KP necessarily but all the other dumb moves that have already destroyed his timeline. There was no reason to give Hardaway that deal, especially when you already have useless Noah. You can absorb one awful deal but 2 long-term cap crushing deals? No one is signing here in Free agency so the best way to build is through the draft. The best way to build through the draft is getting a core of 5-6 players in a 4 year span. Its to bad the last regime robbed all of the draft picks because we would probably have enough pieces to trade for help or at least be further along by now. In my opinion unless we get extremely lucky and ger Porter or Doncic we probably need to go the nuclear option. Be horrible until Hardaway and Noah are gone gain as many assets as possible which will be hard to do because we are capped out. We should of took on a bad contract from the Lakers to get Russel but this organization has no forward thinking whatsoever.

How big would a KP max extension be? I don't think it's that big since he's in only his 3rd year.
fishmike
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10/27/2017  4:26 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:the whole "build around" thing is some silly notion that allows fans to wank over how some good player on their roster is going to "lead them to a title."

Its so silly. You build, add and grow. Right now KP is the best talent on the team. That is all we know. For years people said Mavs wouldnt win with Irk (cause there is no D).

I like what the Wolves did. Aquired a bunch of young guys, let them grow a bit and stay flexible.

Every situation is really unique. It starts with adding high caliber talent and building a complimentary roster. The only really successful team that is "built around" a guy is Lebron and the Cavs.

The Wolves are building around Karl Anthony Towns.

Is that why they traded for Jimmy Butler? Is that why they gave Wiggins $150mm? No... you make my point. They are not build around him. He's part of a foundation they are building of a group of high level guys. That is the blueprint. There is no ONE player to you build around anymore. The build around days are over. Ask Kevin Garnett or Anthony Davis... it takes a squad. Its why Phili started the process. They went about it strangely but they were right in understanding what you really need is a core of 3-4 really high end guys.

KAT is one of 3-4 of those. KP is... only problem is he's the only one. Hopefully Willy, Frank and or Dotson join him. Time will tell.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
Cartman718
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10/27/2017  6:54 PM
lol @ https://www.postingandtoasting.com/2017/10/27/16512894/p-t-october-mailsack-pt-2-regarding-hornacek-handchecking-justin-holiday
search for the word justin
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
Our true rebuilding will start...

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