HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM

this is not +/-
scroll to the bottom for the on/off stats and per/100 poss stats

It basically shows what we have been saying in favor of Frank. When he's on the floor the Knicks are better on offense and defense. Measurably. Now there is context here also. He's replacing Jared Jack. However there is also the context that the Knicks are winning game and Frank is closing tight games in the fourth qtr where his clutch stats are fantastic.

It is impossible to tell if Smith's #s mean anything. His A/TO ratio is terrible. He's shooting 40%. Every measurable metric and eye test say his defense is abysmal. His team is the worst in the NBA. He hasnt played a meaningful NBA minute yet. But Smith is a star and Frank is a role player. Makes zero sense.

Curious, what would be the eye test for his defense is terrible?

Makes sense though. Here with the UK eye test, Frank better than Smith. Everyone else in the NBA and the world Smith is better and is being talked about as a steal of the draft. But what does the world know anyway.

Lets add this to the non biased, well thought out opinions of the past:

Phil did a great job.
Triangle is our future.
Every pick Phil made was the right one.
Noah was worth every penny.

Did I miss anything else we have debated about?

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM

this is not +/-
scroll to the bottom for the on/off stats and per/100 poss stats

It basically shows what we have been saying in favor of Frank. When he's on the floor the Knicks are better on offense and defense. Measurably. Now there is context here also. He's replacing Jared Jack. However there is also the context that the Knicks are winning game and Frank is closing tight games in the fourth qtr where his clutch stats are fantastic.

It is impossible to tell if Smith's #s mean anything. His A/TO ratio is terrible. He's shooting 40%. Every measurable metric and eye test say his defense is abysmal. His team is the worst in the NBA. He hasnt played a meaningful NBA minute yet. But Smith is a star and Frank is a role player. Makes zero sense.

Curious, what would be the eye test for his defense is terrible?

Makes sense though. Here with the UK eye test, Frank better than Smith. Everyone else in the NBA and the world Smith is better and is being talked about as a steal of the draft. But what does the world know anyway.

Lets add this to the non biased, well thought out opinions of the past:

Phil did a great job.
Triangle is our future.
Every pick Phil made was the right one.
Noah was worth every penny.

Did I miss anything else we have debated about?

Everyone in the world said D'Angelo Russell and Jahlil Okafor were clearly better prospects than KP. How'd that go?

Great point. Composing the list of the times the world was right.............. still loading........on page 86......

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/youngnba/status/931315424678969345

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM

this is not +/-
scroll to the bottom for the on/off stats and per/100 poss stats

It basically shows what we have been saying in favor of Frank. When he's on the floor the Knicks are better on offense and defense. Measurably. Now there is context here also. He's replacing Jared Jack. However there is also the context that the Knicks are winning game and Frank is closing tight games in the fourth qtr where his clutch stats are fantastic.

It is impossible to tell if Smith's #s mean anything. His A/TO ratio is terrible. He's shooting 40%. Every measurable metric and eye test say his defense is abysmal. His team is the worst in the NBA. He hasnt played a meaningful NBA minute yet. But Smith is a star and Frank is a role player. Makes zero sense.

Curious, what would be the eye test for his defense is terrible?

Makes sense though. Here with the UK eye test, Frank better than Smith. Everyone else in the NBA and the world Smith is better and is being talked about as a steal of the draft. But what does the world know anyway.

Lets add this to the non biased, well thought out opinions of the past:

Phil did a great job.
Triangle is our future.
Every pick Phil made was the right one.
Noah was worth every penny.

Did I miss anything else we have debated about?

Everyone in the world said D'Angelo Russell and Jahlil Okafor were clearly better prospects than KP. How'd that go?

Probably the same everyone in the NBA that said Knicks couldnt win without Melo.

Here's some fun stuff to read:
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks/post/_/id/66873/knicks-say-frank-ntilikina-has-matured-fast-is-a-driving-force-behind-clubs-success

"It's great that a young guy comes into this league with more defensive principles than the offensive principles. ..." he said. "It's hard to teach."

The numbers back up what Hornacek sees from Ntilikina.

The Knicks outscore opponents by 11 points per 100 possessions with Ntilikina on the floor, the second-highest net rating on the team (behind Porzingis, who has a plus-16 net rating).

With Ntilikina on the floor, the Knicks are giving up 102.4 points per 100 possessions. That would rank as the eighth-best defense in the league. When Ntilikina is off the court, the Knicks give up 108.7 points per 100 possessions, which would rank 29th in the NBA.

"We love that part of it," Hornacek said. "That's what we're trying to become."

Earlier this week, LeBron James said he thought the Knicks made a mistake when they passed on drafting Dennis Smith Jr. James, of course, may end up being right on this. We probably won't know if Smith or Ntilikina is the better in New York for several years.

But at the moment, it seems as if the self-anointed King of New York sold short on Ntilikina.

Great TEAM facts attributed to ONE player on Defense. Its obvious the kid adds to the penetration defense. And yes he is a very good defender But easy with all these TEAM stats attributed to ONE player.

As you noticed during your team defense stat search, OKC is ranked #2 in the league in points allowed?? And who is on that team? Hint it was a former player from the Knicks who is currently ranked 21 himself!! So lets slow down with the statements of ONE players affect on defense. Its a team practice. And we sucked last three years when we gave up on Tyson, Smith and Shump and went to guys like DRose, Jose, etc.

Btw, no one ever said we could not win without Melo. We said that the ridiculous D league talent, he was surrounded with the last 3 years, could not win without him. That was a fact. Since you bring it up, Did you know that the guys from last year that made up over 8000 minutes with the Knicks are all either not playing in the league, in the D league, on becnhes without playing 1 minute or in the case of Rose and Holiday are shooing 30% or less?? But it was Melo. But lets not make this thread another Melo one. We have enough of those. Lets keep the Smith vs Frank gamely comparrison going. I hope he proves me wrong tonight because I hate Toronto!!

nyknickzingis wrote:Melo instead of KP and this team is much worse
Not even close really.
Keep arguing same ole crap though.

When was that argued?

CrushAlot wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM

this is not +/-
scroll to the bottom for the on/off stats and per/100 poss stats

It basically shows what we have been saying in favor of Frank. When he's on the floor the Knicks are better on offense and defense. Measurably. Now there is context here also. He's replacing Jared Jack. However there is also the context that the Knicks are winning game and Frank is closing tight games in the fourth qtr where his clutch stats are fantastic.

It is impossible to tell if Smith's #s mean anything. His A/TO ratio is terrible. He's shooting 40%. Every measurable metric and eye test say his defense is abysmal. His team is the worst in the NBA. He hasnt played a meaningful NBA minute yet. But Smith is a star and Frank is a role player. Makes zero sense.

Curious, what would be the eye test for his defense is terrible?

Makes sense though. Here with the UK eye test, Frank better than Smith. Everyone else in the NBA and the world Smith is better and is being talked about as a steal of the draft. But what does the world know anyway.

Lets add this to the non biased, well thought out opinions of the past:

Phil did a great job.
Triangle is our future.
Every pick Phil made was the right one.
Noah was worth every penny.

Did I miss anything else we have debated about?

Everyone in the world said D'Angelo Russell and Jahlil Okafor were clearly better prospects than KP. How'd that go?

Probably the same everyone in the NBA that said Knicks couldnt win without Melo.

Here's some fun stuff to read:
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks/post/_/id/66873/knicks-say-frank-ntilikina-has-matured-fast-is-a-driving-force-behind-clubs-success

"It's great that a young guy comes into this league with more defensive principles than the offensive principles. ..." he said. "It's hard to teach."

The numbers back up what Hornacek sees from Ntilikina.

The Knicks outscore opponents by 11 points per 100 possessions with Ntilikina on the floor, the second-highest net rating on the team (behind Porzingis, who has a plus-16 net rating).

With Ntilikina on the floor, the Knicks are giving up 102.4 points per 100 possessions. That would rank as the eighth-best defense in the league. When Ntilikina is off the court, the Knicks give up 108.7 points per 100 possessions, which would rank 29th in the NBA.

"We love that part of it," Hornacek said. "That's what we're trying to become."

Earlier this week, LeBron James said he thought the Knicks made a mistake when they passed on drafting Dennis Smith Jr. James, of course, may end up being right on this. We probably won't know if Smith or Ntilikina is the better in New York for several years.

But at the moment, it seems as if the self-anointed King of New York sold short on Ntilikina.

Great TEAM facts attributed to ONE player on Defense. Its obvious the kid adds to the penetration defense. And yes he is a very good defender But easy with all these TEAM stats attributed to ONE player.

As you noticed during your team defense stat search, OKC is ranked #2 in the league in points allowed?? And who is on that team? Hint it was a former player from the Knicks who is currently ranked 21 himself!! So lets slow down with the statements of ONE players affect on defense. Its a team practice. And we sucked last three years when we gave up on Tyson, Smith and Shump and went to guys like DRose, Jose, etc.

Btw, no one ever said we could not win without Melo. We said that the ridiculous D league talent, he was surrounded with the last 3 years, could not win without him. That was a fact. Since you bring it up, Did you know that the guys from last year that made up over 8000 minutes with the Knicks are all either not playing in the league, in the D league, on becnhes without playing 1 minute or in the case of Rose and Holiday are shooing 30% or less?? But it was Melo. But lets not make this thread another Melo one. We have enough of those. Lets keep the Smith vs Frank gamely comparrison going. I hope he proves me wrong tonight because I hate Toronto!!

Great post.
Smith jr and Frank are both tremendous talents. Smith's athleticism is elite. He is in a group of three, Westbrook and Wall are the only other players that have the gifts he has dropping 27 on the Spurs as a 19 yr old is pretty impressive. But Frank has tremendous gifts as well. He already is one of the best defensive point guards in the league and his arms are so long. Getting caked out by Lebron and coming out and having a 6 steal game against the cavs in under 25 minutes at 19 years old was amazing.

Also, Monk and Mitchell have looked really good when I have seen them.

Agree with all. Again, people have mistaken my opinion that the 8th pick should have been Smith, Mitchell or Monk as a put down on the Kid or that I am rooting against him. I'm not. This, for me, is about the belief we needed to shoot for the fences, with the 8th pick, with a player like Smith. Like you said, you dont see that kind of athleticism often, available to you in the draft. Funny because the same thing i am proposing is exactly what we did in picking KP. I would love to see all the guys who hated the KP pick and suggested guys like C Stein or Winslow instead because of their defense efficiency and combo stats. How is that looking like? IMO, thats what the top 10 pick is for. Picking guys that are possible franchise players, not good role players. Dont get me wrong. I really like Frank. I BELIEVE every team needs guys like Frank. Just dont think it is the type of player you add by using your 8th pick. Some on here know thats what i am saying. Others are making it about Frank himself and that I hate the Kid. That's fine. I'll be rooting for Frank and definately not gonna cry over spilled milk. He is Knick and I root for all Knicks. But....Will continue the comparrison on this thread though,.its fun proving people wrong. Lol. But hey, rooting harder for Frank to prove me wrong.

I saw Frank go behind the back with his dribble, in one of his first games. Dont believe Ive seen it at all since then.

Going behind the back would help Frank get by defenders without having to go around them with his off hand on the right side of the floor, until he can improve that part of his game. Really hope Frank works on his handle over the summer. I believe it will go a long way in helping him get to the rim.

Frank is very athletic, but watch his elevation on his attempted layups, doesn't really get far off the ground. Thats just conditioning. No secret Frank needs to work on that over the summer as well.

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM

this is not +/-
scroll to the bottom for the on/off stats and per/100 poss stats

It basically shows what we have been saying in favor of Frank. When he's on the floor the Knicks are better on offense and defense. Measurably. Now there is context here also. He's replacing Jared Jack. However there is also the context that the Knicks are winning game and Frank is closing tight games in the fourth qtr where his clutch stats are fantastic.

It is impossible to tell if Smith's #s mean anything. His A/TO ratio is terrible. He's shooting 40%. Every measurable metric and eye test say his defense is abysmal. His team is the worst in the NBA. He hasnt played a meaningful NBA minute yet. But Smith is a star and Frank is a role player. Makes zero sense.

Curious, what would be the eye test for his defense is terrible?

Makes sense though. Here with the UK eye test, Frank better than Smith. Everyone else in the NBA and the world Smith is better and is being talked about as a steal of the draft. But what does the world know anyway.

Lets add this to the non biased, well thought out opinions of the past:

Phil did a great job.
Triangle is our future.
Every pick Phil made was the right one.
Noah was worth every penny.

Did I miss anything else we have debated about?

Everyone in the world said D'Angelo Russell and Jahlil Okafor were clearly better prospects than KP. How'd that go?

Probably the same everyone in the NBA that said Knicks couldnt win without Melo.

Here's some fun stuff to read:
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks/post/_/id/66873/knicks-say-frank-ntilikina-has-matured-fast-is-a-driving-force-behind-clubs-success

"It's great that a young guy comes into this league with more defensive principles than the offensive principles. ..." he said. "It's hard to teach."

The numbers back up what Hornacek sees from Ntilikina.

The Knicks outscore opponents by 11 points per 100 possessions with Ntilikina on the floor, the second-highest net rating on the team (behind Porzingis, who has a plus-16 net rating).

With Ntilikina on the floor, the Knicks are giving up 102.4 points per 100 possessions. That would rank as the eighth-best defense in the league. When Ntilikina is off the court, the Knicks give up 108.7 points per 100 possessions, which would rank 29th in the NBA.

"We love that part of it," Hornacek said. "That's what we're trying to become."

Earlier this week, LeBron James said he thought the Knicks made a mistake when they passed on drafting Dennis Smith Jr. James, of course, may end up being right on this. We probably won't know if Smith or Ntilikina is the better in New York for several years.

But at the moment, it seems as if the self-anointed King of New York sold short on Ntilikina.

Great TEAM facts attributed to ONE player on Defense. Its obvious the kid adds to the penetration defense. And yes he is a very good defender But easy with all these TEAM stats attributed to ONE player.

As you noticed during your team defense stat search, OKC is ranked #2 in the league in points allowed?? And who is on that team? Hint it was a former player from the Knicks who is currently ranked 21 himself!! So lets slow down with the statements of ONE players affect on defense. Its a team practice. And we sucked last three years when we gave up on Tyson, Smith and Shump and went to guys like DRose, Jose, etc.

Btw, no one ever said we could not win without Melo. We said that the ridiculous D league talent, he was surrounded with the last 3 years, could not win without him. That was a fact. Since you bring it up, Did you know that the guys from last year that made up over 8000 minutes with the Knicks are all either not playing in the league, in the D league, on becnhes without playing 1 minute or in the case of Rose and Holiday are shooing 30% or less?? But it was Melo. But lets not make this thread another Melo one. We have enough of those. Lets keep the Smith vs Frank gamely comparrison going. I hope he proves me wrong tonight because I hate Toronto!!

Great post.
Smith jr and Frank are both tremendous talents. Smith's athleticism is elite. He is in a group of three, Westbrook and Wall are the only other players that have the gifts he has dropping 27 on the Spurs as a 19 yr old is pretty impressive. But Frank has tremendous gifts as well. He already is one of the best defensive point guards in the league and his arms are so long. Getting caked out by Lebron and coming out and having a 6 steal game against the cavs in under 25 minutes at 19 years old was amazing.

Also, Monk and Mitchell have looked really good when I have seen them.

No not a great post at all. He starts by saying on floor - off floor differential is a team stat. Which shows he has no understanding of what he is talking about. While that's not exactly breaking news, it does speak to the level of ignorance that's out there about some of these stats. This stat uses a team defensive stat as input but it's designed to measure an individual player's contribution to the team. It's a much better stat to look at than comparing Win Sahres across teams, IMO.

ERASER BOY!! How you doing. Shouldn't you be at the hair salon getting the new Lin Do?? If you stopped hitting yourself with an eraser you would have noticed the basic point was that ONE players affect or non affect on a TEAM defense is over stated. Anyone would agree to that. As this is a team sport. But if you want to say that a TEAM's rating is a great way to highlight ONE players defensive skills, then okay. So I guess you agree that since Melo is ranked #21! and OKC #2 in the league, Melo is a great defender? Got it.

And guys that don't know anything about basketball are guys that spend all their time on a computer looking for meaningless stats to put down HOF's or have never played the sport at ANY level. Those are called Trolls or Meloshouldgo or LinshouldCum. Bro, we both know your extent of basketball knowledge is a google search and playing with your fellow weight/height challenged friends. But keep pretending. Not that you should not post your opinion, but at least make it make sense and not just hate driven.

nyknickzingis wrote:

ERASER BOY!! How you doing. Shouldn't you be at the hair salon getting the new Lin Do?? If you stopped hitting yourself with an eraser you would have noticed the basic point was that ONE players affect or non affect on a TEAM defense is over stated.

Martin is this really how you want someone to be posting on this site?

Embarrassed to be reading this here.
RealGM Knicks would be proud !

Wtf is an eraser boy?

nyknickzingis wrote:

ERASER BOY!! How you doing. Shouldn't you be at the hair salon getting the new Lin Do?? If you stopped hitting yourself with an eraser you would have noticed the basic point was that ONE players affect or non affect on a TEAM defense is over stated.

Martin is this really how you want someone to be posting on this site?

Embarrassed to be reading this here.
RealGM Knicks would be proud !

Way to comment on something you know nothing about. Martin is well aware of how I talk to most on here. However,this guy has said far worse, to some on here, than "Eraser Boy". Easy rule....you talk sports and we can have a fierce debate . You come at me with insults, I can do the same. So maybe mind your business? Or let's just talk Knicks?

nyknickzingis wrote:

ERASER BOY!! How you doing. Shouldn't you be at the hair salon getting the new Lin Do?? If you stopped hitting yourself with an eraser you would have noticed the basic point was that ONE players affect or non affect on a TEAM defense is over stated.

Martin is this really how you want someone to be posting on this site?

Embarrassed to be reading this here.
RealGM Knicks would be proud !

If you read the post he's replying to, Meloshouldgo basically calls him consistently ignorant. I think this post is on parity with what he was replying to.