HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Ira wrote:Frank brings two things to the Knicks - incredible defense and good ball movement. These were two things we were sorely lacking last season - especially at point guard. I respect what Smith has brought to Dallas, but it hasn't helped them win and, considering Smith's injury history, drafting Frank was the obvious choice.

agreed. I look at how a player impact the team. DSJ has been impressive offensively but the team isn't winning at all. Frank on the other hand have had a huge impact on our wins even though he isnt scoring yet. Just imagine how much better we will be when his offense blossoms

Not to conrinue the whole DSjr vs Frank thing but it is the thread topic but is anyone saying Frank has not contributed?

We are talking about who is the better player and better pick at 8. Unfortunately arguing this point makes me out to hate the Kid. To me, a 8 pick is a franchise player. Yes, sometimes those can go bad. But a risk worth taking at that spot. Don't think the 8th pick is for just a good role player. We could have otten one, and did in Jack, with FA or later draft pick.

Im alsoo fighting the Rose colored glasses fans.

Btw last night.
Frank 1st half. 3 fouls, 1 brick, TO in six minutes.
2nd half TO and foul in first minute in.
Made 2 good buckets.
With steal misses lay up instead of holding to run clock. Lucky the 3 that followed was with 1 second left.
Not that I was at the game or anything. And ROOTING for Frank.

But the Rose colored fans defending him over Smith will say "But he was why we won". No...Timmy was. He just played a small role. And saying he is better than Smith because Dallas sucks (Watch them and you will see why. And it's not Smith) is like saying LT is better than Barnes.

You expect that either Franck or DSjr are finished products already. I think it's easier to find DSjr type later in the draft than Franck's type. It's more difficult to develop good defense than to develop good offense IMO. I have more faith that Franck could blossom as a great offensive player like Kawhi than DSjr becoming a lockdown defensive player. It's all about potential in the end.

lebron is a horrible gm and horrible judge of talent.

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Ira wrote:Frank brings two things to the Knicks - incredible defense and good ball movement. These were two things we were sorely lacking last season - especially at point guard. I respect what Smith has brought to Dallas, but it hasn't helped them win and, considering Smith's injury history, drafting Frank was the obvious choice.

agreed. I look at how a player impact the team. DSJ has been impressive offensively but the team isn't winning at all. Frank on the other hand have had a huge impact on our wins even though he isnt scoring yet. Just imagine how much better we will be when his offense blossoms

Not to conrinue the whole DSjr vs Frank thing but it is the thread topic but is anyone saying Frank has not contributed?

We are talking about who is the better player and better pick at 8. Unfortunately arguing this point makes me out to hate the Kid. To me, a 8 pick is a franchise player. Yes, sometimes those can go bad. But a risk worth taking at that spot. Don't think the 8th pick is for just a good role player. We could have otten one, and did in Jack, with FA or later draft pick.

Im alsoo fighting the Rose colored glasses fans.

Btw last night.
Frank 1st half. 3 fouls, 1 brick, TO in six minutes.
2nd half TO and foul in first minute in.
Made 2 good buckets.
With steal misses lay up instead of holding to run clock. Lucky the 3 that followed was with 1 second left.
Not that I was at the game or anything. And ROOTING for Frank.

But the Rose colored fans defending him over Smith will say "But he was why we won". No...Timmy was. He just played a small role. And saying he is better than Smith because Dallas sucks (Watch them and you will see why. And it's not Smith) is like saying LT is better than Barnes.

DSJ is a awful defender, again absolutely awful. While you are about to ask me have you even seen DSJ play? Yes I have now 11 times this year and I followed his college career as well. Not much has changed in DSJ’s game from college, hes the same score first pg who for the most part always post a minus in the plus minus department. That means the other team scores more points when DSJ is on the floor then the mavs score. This +/- is exactly why I was so greatful we didn’t pick DSJ, he is a loser he was a loser in college because of his awful defense and he is a loser in the NBA because of his awful defense.

Comparing DSJ to frank is silly, frank is a winner, a pass first great defensive pg, seeing franks form i have no doubt he will develop a sweet sharp shooting stroke.

I don’t see any hope for DSJ on defense, 1. He doesn’t seem to have the desire on defense, the only aspect of his game that is comparable to rose is defense. DSJ will carve out a good niche in the nba
as a scorer, but will he get better? I don’t know its up to him, offensively he might be what he is, the celing is low.

Frank has the court vision of L ball or a J Kidd, he always makes the right pass, even if it doesn’t equal a assist. He starts fast breaks just by making the right pass, hes one of those players that always makes the right pass. He needs more confidence in his shot, i like what i saw last night in the second have with 2 confident jumpers I want to see more of that. Frank is a extremely hard worker i have no doubt in my mind that frank will be a deadly shooter in a few years.

So yea your right comparing a player who’s upside is step marbury to a player who has the defense of Kawhi Lenard and the vision of J Kidd or L ball, I’d have to say comparing a - player to a + player is silly.

Frank might not start now again now, but he sure knows how to finish, yes thjr was the reason we pulled through but it was franks infectious defense and passing that got the ball rolling. Scoring is only one aspect of the game, you want your pg to be a JACK of all trades...again drafting DSJ would have been a huge mistake for a team that has a talent like KP. We picked the perfect PG in frank, we made the right pick in frank he is exactly what this team was missing a floor general, pass first defensive lockdown pg

Like KP said I wouldn’t trade frank for the world, I’m getting behind KP On that statement .

HofstraBBall wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Ira wrote:Frank brings two things to the Knicks - incredible defense and good ball movement. These were two things we were sorely lacking last season - especially at point guard. I respect what Smith has brought to Dallas, but it hasn't helped them win and, considering Smith's injury history, drafting Frank was the obvious choice.

agreed. I look at how a player impact the team. DSJ has been impressive offensively but the team isn't winning at all. Frank on the other hand have had a huge impact on our wins even though he isnt scoring yet. Just imagine how much better we will be when his offense blossoms

Not to conrinue the whole DSjr vs Frank thing but it is the thread topic but is anyone saying Frank has not contributed?

We are talking about who is the better player and better pick at 8. Unfortunately arguing this point makes me out to hate the Kid. To me, a 8 pick is a franchise player. Yes, sometimes those can go bad. But a risk worth taking at that spot. Don't think the 8th pick is for just a good role player. We could have otten one, and did in Jack, with FA or later draft pick.

Im alsoo fighting the Rose colored glasses fans.

Btw last night.
Frank 1st half. 3 fouls, 1 brick, TO in six minutes.
2nd half TO and foul in first minute in.
Made 2 good buckets.
With steal misses lay up instead of holding to run clock. Lucky the 3 that followed was with 1 second left.
Not that I was at the game or anything. And ROOTING for Frank.

But the Rose colored fans defending him over Smith will say "But he was why we won". No...Timmy was. He just played a small role. And saying he is better than Smith because Dallas sucks (Watch them and you will see why. And it's not Smith) is like saying LT is better than Barnes.

No offense but have you watched DSJ? He’s a good scorer, just like frank is a great defender. Both players have a lot to work on, as they should at 19.

DSJ is a awful defender, again absolutely awful. While you are about to ask me have you even seen DSJ play? Yes I have now 11 times this year and I followed his college career as well. Not much has changed in DSJ’s game from college, hes the same score first pg who for the most part always post a minus in the plus minus department. That means the other team scores more points when DSJ is on the floor then the mavs score. This +/- is exactly why I was so greatful we didn’t pick DSJ, he is a loser he was a loser in college because of his awful defense and he is a loser in the NBA because of his awful defense.

Comparing DSJ to frank is silly, frank is a winner, a pass first great defensive pg, seeing franks form i have no doubt he will develop a sweet sharp shooting stroke.

I don’t see any hope for DSJ on defense, 1. He doesn’t seem to have the desire on defense, the only aspect of his game that is comparable to rose is defense. DSJ will carve out a good niche in the nba
as a scorer, but will he get better? I don’t know its up to him, offensively he might be what he is, the celing is low.

Frank has the court vision of L ball or a J Kidd, he always makes the right pass, even if it doesn’t equal a assist. He starts fast breaks just by making the right pass, hes one of those players that always makes the right pass. He needs more confidence in his shot, i like what i saw last night in the second have with 2 confident jumpers I want to see more of that. Frank is a extremely hard worker i have no doubt in my mind that frank will be a deadly shooter in a few years.

So yea your right comparing a player who’s upside is step marbury to a player who has the defense of Kawhi Lenard and the vision of J Kidd or L ball, I’d have to say comparing a - player to a + player is silly.

Frank might not start now again now, but he sure knows how to finish, yes thjr was the reason we pulled through but it was franks infectious defense and passing that got the ball rolling. Scoring is only one aspect of the game, you want your pg to be a JACK of all trades...again drafting DSJ would have been a huge mistake for a team that has a talent like KP. We picked the perfect PG in frank, we made the right pick in frank he is exactly what this team was missing a floor general, pass first defensive lockdown pg

Like KP said I wouldn’t trade frank for the world, I’m getting behind KP On that statement .

+/_...Yawn. Maybe you should read up on how that is a terrible gauge when used in a small sample size. BUt you knew this. By those kind of standards we should be trading for a lot of aging players that currentlu have great +/- stats.. Shit, guess who is No. 1 right nowin REAL plus-minus http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm. Lets trade Frank for him? And from what we have seen in 13 or so games, your assumption is that Frank will fix everything wrong and Smith will not improve anything. Hmmmm, I have never heard that before from fans in denial. Some just said it of Kyrie. Many said it of KP, Curry, IT, Lowry etc etc. GOH! All guys that cant recognize natural talent and love guys that they can relate to that pass the ball with two hands, set great picks, and dont try any fancy dribbles. Frank hits the outlets, passes so great. Hands the ball to the right guy. Awesome. ROLE PLAYER! Not the 8th pick of the draft! What cant you get. And so far, hands down, Smith has been the better PLAYER. The fact Knicks are a better team than Dallas is his only saving grace. IF this team was losing, and they still might once they hit the road, I dont think fans would be so forgiving.

But got it. Smith=Steph Marbury. Frank=Kawhi Leonard? Agree that probably Lenard. Who ever that is.

I mean while we are throwing useless comparrisons out there, I have one....Smith+Irving/Curry Frank=Roberson/Rubio

You are right about one thing.. that comparison was useless.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Ira wrote:Frank brings two things to the Knicks - incredible defense and good ball movement. These were two things we were sorely lacking last season - especially at point guard. I respect what Smith has brought to Dallas, but it hasn't helped them win and, considering Smith's injury history, drafting Frank was the obvious choice.

agreed. I look at how a player impact the team. DSJ has been impressive offensively but the team isn't winning at all. Frank on the other hand have had a huge impact on our wins even though he isnt scoring yet. Just imagine how much better we will be when his offense blossoms

Not to conrinue the whole DSjr vs Frank thing but it is the thread topic but is anyone saying Frank has not contributed?

We are talking about who is the better player and better pick at 8. Unfortunately arguing this point makes me out to hate the Kid. To me, a 8 pick is a franchise player. Yes, sometimes those can go bad. But a risk worth taking at that spot. Don't think the 8th pick is for just a good role player. We could have otten one, and did in Jack, with FA or later draft pick.

Im alsoo fighting the Rose colored glasses fans.

Btw last night.
Frank 1st half. 3 fouls, 1 brick, TO in six minutes.
2nd half TO and foul in first minute in.
Made 2 good buckets.
With steal misses lay up instead of holding to run clock. Lucky the 3 that followed was with 1 second left.
Not that I was at the game or anything. And ROOTING for Frank.

But the Rose colored fans defending him over Smith will say "But he was why we won". No...Timmy was. He just played a small role. And saying he is better than Smith because Dallas sucks (Watch them and you will see why. And it's not Smith) is like saying LT is better than Barnes.

No offense but have you watched DSJ? He’s a good scorer, just like frank is a great defender. Both players have a lot to work on, as they should at 19.

DSJ is a awful defender, again absolutely awful. While you are about to ask me have you even seen DSJ play? Yes I have now 11 times this year and I followed his college career as well. Not much has changed in DSJ’s game from college, hes the same score first pg who for the most part always post a minus in the plus minus department. That means the other team scores more points when DSJ is on the floor then the mavs score. This +/- is exactly why I was so greatful we didn’t pick DSJ, he is a loser he was a loser in college because of his awful defense and he is a loser in the NBA because of his awful defense.

Comparing DSJ to frank is silly, frank is a winner, a pass first great defensive pg, seeing franks form i have no doubt he will develop a sweet sharp shooting stroke.

I don’t see any hope for DSJ on defense, 1. He doesn’t seem to have the desire on defense, the only aspect of his game that is comparable to rose is defense. DSJ will carve out a good niche in the nba
as a scorer, but will he get better? I don’t know its up to him, offensively he might be what he is, the celing is low.

Frank has the court vision of L ball or a J Kidd, he always makes the right pass, even if it doesn’t equal a assist. He starts fast breaks just by making the right pass, hes one of those players that always makes the right pass. He needs more confidence in his shot, i like what i saw last night in the second have with 2 confident jumpers I want to see more of that. Frank is a extremely hard worker i have no doubt in my mind that frank will be a deadly shooter in a few years.

So yea your right comparing a player who’s upside is step marbury to a player who has the defense of Kawhi Lenard and the vision of J Kidd or L ball, I’d have to say comparing a - player to a + player is silly.

Frank might not start now again now, but he sure knows how to finish, yes thjr was the reason we pulled through but it was franks infectious defense and passing that got the ball rolling. Scoring is only one aspect of the game, you want your pg to be a JACK of all trades...again drafting DSJ would have been a huge mistake for a team that has a talent like KP. We picked the perfect PG in frank, we made the right pick in frank he is exactly what this team was missing a floor general, pass first defensive lockdown pg

Like KP said I wouldn’t trade frank for the world, I’m getting behind KP On that statement .

+/_...Yawn. Maybe you should read up on how that is a terrible gauge when used in a small sample size. BUt you knew this. By those kind of standards we should be trading for a lot of aging players that currentlu have great +/- stats.. Shit, guess who is No. 1 right nowin REAL plus-minus http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm. Lets trade Frank for him? And from what we have seen in 13 or so games, your assumption is that Frank will fix everything wrong and Smith will not improve anything. Hmmmm, I have never heard that before from fans in denial. Some just said it of Kyrie. Many said it of KP, Curry, IT, Lowry etc etc. GOH! All guys that cant recognize natural talent and love guys that they can relate to that pass the ball with two hands, set great picks, and dont try any fancy dribbles. Frank hits the outlets, passes so great. Hands the ball to the right guy. Awesome. ROLE PLAYER! Not the 8th pick of the draft! What cant you get. And so far, hands down, Smith has been the better PLAYER. The fact Knicks are a better team than Dallas is his only saving grace. IF this team was losing, and they still might once they hit the road, I dont think fans would be so forgiving.

But got it. Smith=Steph Marbury. Frank=Kawhi Leonard? Agree that probably Lenard. Who ever that is.

I mean while we are throwing useless comparrisons out there, I have one....Smith+Irving/Curry Frank=Roberson/Rubio

DSJ is a far better Offensive Player. OVERALL I would slow down with the better player angle.

Many of us were concerned about Frank’s value at #8 since he’s not yet the kind of offensive talent most come to expect from a high pick PG. The thing is Frank is a great TEAM player. His overall impact on the team is only positive.

I said before the draft that I would trust the Knicks to pick the right players in the draft. It’s clear that they draft with a view towards 2Way TEAM players that have WINNING habits. That’s what we’ve seen.

Dennis Smith Jr. Offensive Rating 90, Defensive Rating 111
Frank Ntilikina  Offensive Rating 88, Defensive Rating 104

Ira wrote:

smackeddog wrote:For me I thought Frank would become a Billups type of player- not flashy and might struggle offensively for a few years, but a winner in the end

That's it. He plays the position like Billups, Kidd and Mo Cheeks.

this is not +/-
scroll to the bottom for the on/off stats and per/100 poss stats

It basically shows what we have been saying in favor of Frank. When he's on the floor the Knicks are better on offense and defense. Measurably. Now there is context here also. He's replacing Jared Jack. However there is also the context that the Knicks are winning game and Frank is closing tight games in the fourth qtr where his clutch stats are fantastic.

It is impossible to tell if Smith's #s mean anything. His A/TO ratio is terrible. He's shooting 40%. Every measurable metric and eye test say his defense is abysmal. His team is the worst in the NBA. He hasnt played a meaningful NBA minute yet. But Smith is a star and Frank is a role player. Makes zero sense.

fishmike wrote:http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM

this is not +/-
scroll to the bottom for the on/off stats and per/100 poss stats

It basically shows what we have been saying in favor of Frank. When he's on the floor the Knicks are better on offense and defense. Measurably. Now there is context here also. He's replacing Jared Jack. However there is also the context that the Knicks are winning game and Frank is closing tight games in the fourth qtr where his clutch stats are fantastic.

It is impossible to tell if Smith's #s mean anything. His A/TO ratio is terrible. He's shooting 40%. Every measurable metric and eye test say his defense is abysmal. His team is the worst in the NBA. He hasnt played a meaningful NBA minute yet. But Smith is a star and Frank is a role player. Makes zero sense.

Curious, what would be the eye test for his defense is terrible?

Makes sense though. Here with the UK eye test, Frank better than Smith. Everyone else in the NBA and the world Smith is better and is being talked about as a steal of the draft. But what does the world know anyway.

Lets add this to the non biased, well thought out opinions of the past:

Phil did a great job.
Triangle is our future.
Every pick Phil made was the right one.
Noah was worth every penny.

Did I miss anything else we have debated about?

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM

this is not +/-
scroll to the bottom for the on/off stats and per/100 poss stats

It basically shows what we have been saying in favor of Frank. When he's on the floor the Knicks are better on offense and defense. Measurably. Now there is context here also. He's replacing Jared Jack. However there is also the context that the Knicks are winning game and Frank is closing tight games in the fourth qtr where his clutch stats are fantastic.

It is impossible to tell if Smith's #s mean anything. His A/TO ratio is terrible. He's shooting 40%. Every measurable metric and eye test say his defense is abysmal. His team is the worst in the NBA. He hasnt played a meaningful NBA minute yet. But Smith is a star and Frank is a role player. Makes zero sense.

Curious, what would be the eye test for his defense is terrible?

Makes sense though. Here with the UK eye test, Frank better than Smith. Everyone else in the NBA and the world Smith is better and is being talked about as a steal of the draft. But what does the world know anyway.

Lets add this to the non biased, well thought out opinions of the past:

Phil did a great job.
Triangle is our future.
Every pick Phil made was the right one.
Noah was worth every penny.

Did I miss anything else we have debated about?

We got Frank...he already seems to be one of the better defensive PGs (not just rookies)in the league...he will get better on the offensive end...nothing can be undone regarding Jackson't decision to take him.

Should we go back to KP's first season to see how some UK members discounted him that year? Have we seen improvement over his 3 years? Are we going to see even more improvement as he continues to get stronger and work on his skills?

I'm sure you can look back to see where I stood on giving a rookie...ANY rookie, time, even 2-3 years or more, especially one like KP who was clearly not as physically mature as some in his draft. Same things I said about KP go for Frank, who is far from being physically mature. Jackson talked about KP needing 5 years to develop to reach his full potential. Does that see realistic now? Could he be considered the top pick in his draft at some point in the future?

Why not give Frenchie a chance?...Missing SL and pre-season really set him back...more on the offensive end, I think, because in SL he would have been more likely to take his shots. Nonetheless, he has clearly established himself as a valuable player on a team which now stands at 8-6...valuable enough to finish games.

Drives me crazy when folks look for instant gratification regarding a rookie...makes no sense at all to believe that a physically immature player you see in year one is the same player you'll see a few years down the line. Older or more physically developed players might have less room for improvement, in general, though even they can still fine tune their games. Frank is not physically mature, was the youngest player in the draft, and clearly holds back on the offensive end at this point.

Not a big fan of this thread, it is something you want to revisit in the future and not be a game by game analysis, but I hope it is still on page 1 in 3, 4, or 5 years...might be interesting to revisit, especially given the example of KP and how we rank him in his draft.