Frank is a euro player who has been trained as a PG to be the catalyst for his team. Better to get the other 4 guys going but if the defense gives you space, you take it!
Smith is a gifted player who was trained to put up points first. Euro PG's have a different mind set.

Frank will grow into the type of player we want him to be. Smith has to learn as a ball dominant player to distribute and frank when not to.
I'd say SMith will have an easier time. He is on a lousy team that needs scoring and if he is successful at it helps sell tickets. Its what Dallas needs him to be.
Knicks Drafted a different type of player.

Draw what you want from that. We can talk about this for 5 more years, because they will both be 24-25 then. Frank should be starting his freshman year in College. Instead he played in a respectable league finals that would beat all div. 1 teams and got drafted 8th. Pretty good high school age thing to do.

Smith did not play his senior year due to ACL (he has alien like extra ligaments and stuff in his knee!!) and while started slow was a great player in the ACC in his last 10 or so games!!! The kid is good and might be Kyrie!!!

If, his knee holds up. The stuff about him being a Marbury like dude or Francis is made up stuff.
At this point one is not better than the other, they are different.

Welpee wrote:Who would you rather have: Vince Carter, Dirk Nowitzki or Paul Pierce? All three came out of the 1998 draft. Vince made noise early with flashy numbers and highlight dunks. However, long term most would prefer having the other two.

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:Who would you rather have: Vince Carter, Dirk Nowitzki or Paul Pierce? All three came out of the 1998 draft. Vince made noise early with flashy numbers and highlight dunks. However, long term most would prefer having the other two.

to be fair none of them are whiffs. Different players with different careers but if you picked any of those 3 you picked well.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Juliano wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/status/930222499509411840

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.

Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.

This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Im sorry your not making sense. IF its not about his positive influence what is it about? Thats all I care about. Not AAU ball hogging babies that get their numbers. Ive had my share of them. I want guys who win. I have said repeatedly I would have been good with whoever we drafted. I am not fan of Phil but we drafted well under him and I think we got it right again. Frank's offense is way behind the other 3 guys, but his passing and play making might be the best of the 4. His defense is already at a high level for NBA standards, which at 19 with his barely developed body is unreal. These AAU kids have been scoring since they were 11. Frank is from a different mold and a different mindset.

You can say aw shucks fishmike thats really sweet but give me the guy who's a dominating player. Im saying we are seeing in the numbers that Frank is bringing just as much to the table as the other 3 guys.

Frank plays off the bench. He gets more time with KOQ than KP and Kanter.

In the last 6 games (since the Houston loss) Knicks are 4-2.
They are +43 with Frank on the floor during that 6 game stretch.
For all Frank's offensive woes he's shot 44% in the 4th qtr, and 40% (4-10) from 3 in the 4th
During that 6 game stretch Frank is averaging 23mpg. Just under half the PG time.

What I am saying is Frank is hitting his stride.
The changes to our FG% and opposing FG% with Frank on off the floor is dramatic. We are better on both sides of the ball.

Knicks are winning games.

Also... not sure if I mentioned it, but the Knicks are winning games.

Dennis Smith with another big scoring game last night. Another Mavs loss. Patty Mills dropped 19, the dude averages like 9ppg. Smith Jr had 2 assists and 6 turnovers. Im good with Frank!!!!!!

Oh... Knicks are winning. Smith's dunks are otherworldly. So were KP's putback dunks over guy's backs, and we were losing then also. I am enjoying the wins more.

Why are you pretending you dont know what this is all about. Its about who is the better player/prospect. So far Frank has been a solid ROLE player. My point was that you jabe to stop making it sound like he has taken over games with his play. Or that the team would be doimg worse witj Smith on the team. I think they would be even better r8gjt now witj Smith or Mitchell. Btw. Guys that are losing a debate usually resort to emotional stuff like "Ball hogging babies". Specially whem stats dont bacl it up. Nor can it be said of anyome watching him play. I've heard that made up perspective from many on jere before. Same **** people were saying about Lowry, Irving, amd LT. All that "they dont defend" and "let me show you the efficiency numbers" crap.Your missing the whole point. But Probably not. You just like changing the narrative when losing the argument. This thread is about who is the BETER player Smith or Frank. NOT who the better team is. Or ahould we start a whos better Harrison Barnes or LT thread and declare LT better. Or Lebron vs Lee amd declare Lee the wimmer because of gis COMBO stats. Using these type of stats we can come up with another 100 examples of mediocre players that are better than stars. But AGAIN, this is not about hating the Kid or within he fails or not rooting for him. Its about who "I" tgink is the better player and my preferred pick. I hope he proves me wrong. So far I can't say that he has.

Btw, your clearly not watching the Dallas games. Mills was not covered by Smith fyi.

I am talking about who the better player is. The problem is you dont value what he brings. You love the AAU crowd who puts up big scoring numbers, but dont seem to pay much attention to how that impacts the team. DSjr scored 27 points. He's a star. You cant compare him to a ROLE player like Frank. I simply disagree with you. I dont think Smith has shown stardom at all. The history of the NBA is littered with scorers who never won anything. How many great defensive player that elevate the play of their teammates are there?

So no... Im not changing the narrative. I think what Frank is doing, and has shown in last stretch of games shows he's every bit the basketball PLAYER that Smith is. Different skill sets, same position. One is elevating the play of his teammates. The other is doing some impressive scoring and not much else.

Yea.. Smith guarded Green, as Green is not a scoring threat. I get it. Smith went 10-23 with 2 assists, 6 turn overs and 4 fouls. Would jacking up shot after shot make Frank more of a star?

Welpee wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:I expect Frank to mimic Rondo in his career. Great defensive player that got better offensively through the years.

Frank probably has a little better offensive potential than Rondo. Maybe not quite as creative distributing the ball. But a fair comparison, a guy who impacts winning without scoring a ton of points.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Juliano wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/status/930222499509411840

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.

Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.

This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Im sorry your not making sense. IF its not about his positive influence what is it about? Thats all I care about. Not AAU ball hogging babies that get their numbers. Ive had my share of them. I want guys who win. I have said repeatedly I would have been good with whoever we drafted. I am not fan of Phil but we drafted well under him and I think we got it right again. Frank's offense is way behind the other 3 guys, but his passing and play making might be the best of the 4. His defense is already at a high level for NBA standards, which at 19 with his barely developed body is unreal. These AAU kids have been scoring since they were 11. Frank is from a different mold and a different mindset.

You can say aw shucks fishmike thats really sweet but give me the guy who's a dominating player. Im saying we are seeing in the numbers that Frank is bringing just as much to the table as the other 3 guys.

Frank plays off the bench. He gets more time with KOQ than KP and Kanter.

In the last 6 games (since the Houston loss) Knicks are 4-2.
They are +43 with Frank on the floor during that 6 game stretch.
For all Frank's offensive woes he's shot 44% in the 4th qtr, and 40% (4-10) from 3 in the 4th
During that 6 game stretch Frank is averaging 23mpg. Just under half the PG time.

What I am saying is Frank is hitting his stride.
The changes to our FG% and opposing FG% with Frank on off the floor is dramatic. We are better on both sides of the ball.

Knicks are winning games.

Also... not sure if I mentioned it, but the Knicks are winning games.

Dennis Smith with another big scoring game last night. Another Mavs loss. Patty Mills dropped 19, the dude averages like 9ppg. Smith Jr had 2 assists and 6 turnovers. Im good with Frank!!!!!!

Oh... Knicks are winning. Smith's dunks are otherworldly. So were KP's putback dunks over guy's backs, and we were losing then also. I am enjoying the wins more.

Why are you pretending you dont know what this is all about. Its about who is the better player/prospect. So far Frank has been a solid ROLE player. My point was that you jabe to stop making it sound like he has taken over games with his play. Or that the team would be doimg worse witj Smith on the team. I think they would be even better r8gjt now witj Smith or Mitchell. Btw. Guys that are losing a debate usually resort to emotional stuff like "Ball hogging babies". Specially whem stats dont bacl it up. Nor can it be said of anyome watching him play. I've heard that made up perspective from many on jere before. Same **** people were saying about Lowry, Irving, amd LT. All that "they dont defend" and "let me show you the efficiency numbers" crap.Your missing the whole point. But Probably not. You just like changing the narrative when losing the argument. This thread is about who is the BETER player Smith or Frank. NOT who the better team is. Or ahould we start a whos better Harrison Barnes or LT thread and declare LT better. Or Lebron vs Lee amd declare Lee the wimmer because of gis COMBO stats. Using these type of stats we can come up with another 100 examples of mediocre players that are better than stars. But AGAIN, this is not about hating the Kid or within he fails or not rooting for him. Its about who "I" tgink is the better player and my preferred pick. I hope he proves me wrong. So far I can't say that he has.

Btw, your clearly not watching the Dallas games. Mills was not covered by Smith fyi.

Welpee wrote:Last year I really soften my stance on advance stats based on folks telling us how bad D Rose was based on the data versus the surface numbers. I didn't buy it at first but they were right and I was wrong. I am much more open to the advance metrics (though not a slave to it). I agree with your post. Smith is more likely to always put up better numbers because that's how he was groomed to play. My hope is Frank won't necessarily put up has impressive stats but will have a greater contribution to the bottom line, winning. If folks want to proclaim Smith a better player because he'll help your fantasy team more than Frank, go for it.

BigRedDog wrote:From Rotoworld..

"The Mavericks, who have won just two games, got a career-high 27 points from Dennis Smith Jr., who hit 10-of-23 shots, five 3-pointers and 2-of-2 free throws, and handed out two assists with six rebounds. He also had six turnovers and scored a lot of his points late, but I don’t care. I love him."

Frank Ntilikina, Knicks (22% owned)

Ntilikina could be featured in both the assists and steals sections, as he’s been impressive in both. He’s shown to be a quality source of assists (6.2) in limited action (24.0 minutes per game). His long arms allow him to be a force on the defensive end as well, racking up 2.0 steals per game on the season. As he develops and gets more comfortable within New York’s offense, he may garner more minutes as the year goes on. For that reason, he could end up being more than a short-term pickup off the waiver wire.

Steals

Season Leaders

Paul George, Thunder (2.5)

Kent Bazemore, Hawks (2.1)

Frank Ntilikina (2.0)

BigDaddyG wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:From Rotoworld..

"The Mavericks, who have won just two games, got a career-high 27 points from Dennis Smith Jr., who hit 10-of-23 shots, five 3-pointers and 2-of-2 free throws, and handed out two assists with six rebounds. He also had six turnovers and scored a lot of his points late, but I don’t care. I love him."

Per Yahoo....

Frank Ntilikina, Knicks (22% owned)

Ntilikina could be featured in both the assists and steals sections, as he’s been impressive in both. He’s shown to be a quality source of assists (6.2) in limited action (24.0 minutes per game). His long arms allow him to be a force on the defensive end as well, racking up 2.0 steals per game on the season. As he develops and gets more comfortable within New York’s offense, he may garner more minutes as the year goes on. For that reason, he could end up being more than a short-term pickup off the waiver wire.

Steals

Season Leaders

Paul George, Thunder (2.5)

Kent Bazemore, Hawks (2.1)

Frank Ntilikina (2.0)

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Juliano wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/status/930222499509411840

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.

Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.

This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Im sorry your not making sense. IF its not about his positive influence what is it about? Thats all I care about. Not AAU ball hogging babies that get their numbers. Ive had my share of them. I want guys who win. I have said repeatedly I would have been good with whoever we drafted. I am not fan of Phil but we drafted well under him and I think we got it right again. Frank's offense is way behind the other 3 guys, but his passing and play making might be the best of the 4. His defense is already at a high level for NBA standards, which at 19 with his barely developed body is unreal. These AAU kids have been scoring since they were 11. Frank is from a different mold and a different mindset.

You can say aw shucks fishmike thats really sweet but give me the guy who's a dominating player. Im saying we are seeing in the numbers that Frank is bringing just as much to the table as the other 3 guys.

Frank plays off the bench. He gets more time with KOQ than KP and Kanter.

In the last 6 games (since the Houston loss) Knicks are 4-2.
They are +43 with Frank on the floor during that 6 game stretch.
For all Frank's offensive woes he's shot 44% in the 4th qtr, and 40% (4-10) from 3 in the 4th
During that 6 game stretch Frank is averaging 23mpg. Just under half the PG time.

What I am saying is Frank is hitting his stride.
The changes to our FG% and opposing FG% with Frank on off the floor is dramatic. We are better on both sides of the ball.

Knicks are winning games.

Also... not sure if I mentioned it, but the Knicks are winning games.

Dennis Smith with another big scoring game last night. Another Mavs loss. Patty Mills dropped 19, the dude averages like 9ppg. Smith Jr had 2 assists and 6 turnovers. Im good with Frank!!!!!!

Oh... Knicks are winning. Smith's dunks are otherworldly. So were KP's putback dunks over guy's backs, and we were losing then also. I am enjoying the wins more.

Why are you pretending you dont know what this is all about. Its about who is the better player/prospect. So far Frank has been a solid ROLE player. My point was that you jabe to stop making it sound like he has taken over games with his play. Or that the team would be doimg worse witj Smith on the team. I think they would be even better r8gjt now witj Smith or Mitchell. Btw. Guys that are losing a debate usually resort to emotional stuff like "Ball hogging babies". Specially whem stats dont bacl it up. Nor can it be said of anyome watching him play. I've heard that made up perspective from many on jere before. Same **** people were saying about Lowry, Irving, amd LT. All that "they dont defend" and "let me show you the efficiency numbers" crap.Your missing the whole point. But Probably not. You just like changing the narrative when losing the argument. This thread is about who is the BETER player Smith or Frank. NOT who the better team is. Or ahould we start a whos better Harrison Barnes or LT thread and declare LT better. Or Lebron vs Lee amd declare Lee the wimmer because of gis COMBO stats. Using these type of stats we can come up with another 100 examples of mediocre players that are better than stars. But AGAIN, this is not about hating the Kid or within he fails or not rooting for him. Its about who "I" tgink is the better player and my preferred pick. I hope he proves me wrong. So far I can't say that he has.

Btw, your clearly not watching the Dallas games. Mills was not covered by Smith fyi.

It's not just the advanced stats. Watching DSJ, you can tell he's a bit shot thirsty, pounds the ball way too much to foster ball movement and his D needs work. I'm pretty sure this team would not be playing better is we had Smith instead of Frank. We need a facilitator and defender. Frank is better than DSJ at those things. DSJ is a better scorer, but scoring doesn't seem to be a major problem for us right now. I like Mitchell, but I'm not sure he can run the offense the way it needs to be ran. Plus, his shooting is erratic at this point. Mitchell probably needs to eased in. Unfortunately, Utah doesn't have that luxury.

Did you watch the game? He averages 15 shots a game. Not exactly shot happy. 3 of those last night were last second shot clock hand offs from other players. 2 last quarter prayers form half court. And 1 missed dunk after impressive drive. And almost 5 assists per game. Not exactly a bad fascilitator.

If all we needed was a fascilitator and a rookie that can play some defense, why use it with number 8 pick? NO ONE has answered that. Same people that thought Mike Conley was worth all that money for his ROLE skills. Same things people were saying about Curry, Kyrie, IT etc etc. My point has always been that you use a 8th pick for a game changer not a ROLE player.

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Juliano wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/status/930222499509411840

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.

Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.

This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Im sorry your not making sense. IF its not about his positive influence what is it about? Thats all I care about. Not AAU ball hogging babies that get their numbers. Ive had my share of them. I want guys who win. I have said repeatedly I would have been good with whoever we drafted. I am not fan of Phil but we drafted well under him and I think we got it right again. Frank's offense is way behind the other 3 guys, but his passing and play making might be the best of the 4. His defense is already at a high level for NBA standards, which at 19 with his barely developed body is unreal. These AAU kids have been scoring since they were 11. Frank is from a different mold and a different mindset.

You can say aw shucks fishmike thats really sweet but give me the guy who's a dominating player. Im saying we are seeing in the numbers that Frank is bringing just as much to the table as the other 3 guys.

Frank plays off the bench. He gets more time with KOQ than KP and Kanter.

In the last 6 games (since the Houston loss) Knicks are 4-2.
They are +43 with Frank on the floor during that 6 game stretch.
For all Frank's offensive woes he's shot 44% in the 4th qtr, and 40% (4-10) from 3 in the 4th
During that 6 game stretch Frank is averaging 23mpg. Just under half the PG time.

What I am saying is Frank is hitting his stride.
The changes to our FG% and opposing FG% with Frank on off the floor is dramatic. We are better on both sides of the ball.

Knicks are winning games.

Also... not sure if I mentioned it, but the Knicks are winning games.

Dennis Smith with another big scoring game last night. Another Mavs loss. Patty Mills dropped 19, the dude averages like 9ppg. Smith Jr had 2 assists and 6 turnovers. Im good with Frank!!!!!!

Oh... Knicks are winning. Smith's dunks are otherworldly. So were KP's putback dunks over guy's backs, and we were losing then also. I am enjoying the wins more.

Why are you pretending you dont know what this is all about. Its about who is the better player/prospect. So far Frank has been a solid ROLE player. My point was that you jabe to stop making it sound like he has taken over games with his play. Or that the team would be doimg worse witj Smith on the team. I think they would be even better r8gjt now witj Smith or Mitchell. Btw. Guys that are losing a debate usually resort to emotional stuff like "Ball hogging babies". Specially whem stats dont bacl it up. Nor can it be said of anyome watching him play. I've heard that made up perspective from many on jere before. Same **** people were saying about Lowry, Irving, amd LT. All that "they dont defend" and "let me show you the efficiency numbers" crap.Your missing the whole point. But Probably not. You just like changing the narrative when losing the argument. This thread is about who is the BETER player Smith or Frank. NOT who the better team is. Or ahould we start a whos better Harrison Barnes or LT thread and declare LT better. Or Lebron vs Lee amd declare Lee the wimmer because of gis COMBO stats. Using these type of stats we can come up with another 100 examples of mediocre players that are better than stars. But AGAIN, this is not about hating the Kid or within he fails or not rooting for him. Its about who "I" tgink is the better player and my preferred pick. I hope he proves me wrong. So far I can't say that he has.

Btw, your clearly not watching the Dallas games. Mills was not covered by Smith fyi.

It's not just the advanced stats. Watching DSJ, you can tell he's a bit shot thirsty, pounds the ball way too much to foster ball movement and his D needs work. I'm pretty sure this team would not be playing better is we had Smith instead of Frank. We need a facilitator and defender. Frank is better than DSJ at those things. DSJ is a better scorer, but scoring doesn't seem to be a major problem for us right now. I like Mitchell, but I'm not sure he can run the offense the way it needs to be ran. Plus, his shooting is erratic at this point. Mitchell probably needs to eased in. Unfortunately, Utah doesn't have that luxury.

Did you watch the game? He averages 15 shots a game. Not exactly shot happy. And almost 5 assists per game. Not exactly a bad fascilitator. And if all we needed was a fascilitator and a rookie that can play some defense, why use it with number 8 pick? Come on? Same people that thought Mike Conley was worth all that money for his ROLE skills and bagged Curry, Kyrie, IT etc etc.