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TPercy
Posts: 24633
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  7:54 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.

If the one instance you can recall is Castillo then that is a problem in itself.

The shooting spree example is basically saying how ratio and % numbers don't hold much weight when it comes to people losing their lives. One person losing their life unjustly is worthy of a protest.

There have been more than one.

There is also 2 sides to this. Can you provide evidence that officers are held accountable for the killing of unarmed men at a justifiable rate? There have been a lot of high profile cases with a lot of eyes on the judgement which see officers not exonerated. This is the data the public is going to go by. And have not seen much data presented to show the opposite.


I am on my phone. I will provide more cases than Castillo for you when I get to my notebook.

You are right, if one man is killed by a cop unjustly and nothing is done about it, it is worthy of protest. Its when you start making farfetched generalizations that a problem comes up.

You are also right that there are two sides to this. That's why I am not making any generalization about the accountability of cops either and why I judge these issues on a case by case basis instead of pushing a single narrative.

First you would have have followed more than one case. Second the systematic racism isnt just about unarmed black men getting killed. You are the one looking to boil it down to just that. The profiling which leads to many more unessesary interactions which may escalate into an unamred man getting killed is also apart of that but also just another layer. As is the fact that the officers may not be held accountable for it another layer. But even those are just pieces of the whole issue of systematic racism.

Also to be more accurate if the target is systematic racism for you argument. Then you would have to use police forces who cover a highly poplulated AA areas. Which lowers the number of overall officers you want to compare. Cops dealing with mostly white civilians can't be attributed to the number of officers when speaking about systematic racism,

If your talking about police brutality in general then that's different.


I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

OK let's just stop with the pretense here. This country was established with Racism at its core! Can we not pretend that there aren't deeply entrenched problems with race? Let's not insult everyone's intelligence here.

Even when there is no individual racist intent the outcomes are often racially disparate. The problem is that there has been such a long and complex set of built in racist practices that it's on automatic. It no longer required active participation, although there is at least some amount of actual individual racism.

Change requires intentional action or else the problems persist. The racist inequality was built in intentionally over decades so it's not a simple fix. The reason this is STILL an issue is precisely because the Majority has never seriously addressed the problem. Rather it's been dragged along slowly, kicking and screaming all these decades. Often the bare minimum has been done. That too is no accident.

Even now there are those in the Republican Party who play with Racist Dog Whistles because it falls to their benefit.

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

The Future is Bright!
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nixluva
Posts: 55256
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
10/7/2017  8:38 PM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.

If the one instance you can recall is Castillo then that is a problem in itself.

The shooting spree example is basically saying how ratio and % numbers don't hold much weight when it comes to people losing their lives. One person losing their life unjustly is worthy of a protest.

There have been more than one.

There is also 2 sides to this. Can you provide evidence that officers are held accountable for the killing of unarmed men at a justifiable rate? There have been a lot of high profile cases with a lot of eyes on the judgement which see officers not exonerated. This is the data the public is going to go by. And have not seen much data presented to show the opposite.


I am on my phone. I will provide more cases than Castillo for you when I get to my notebook.

You are right, if one man is killed by a cop unjustly and nothing is done about it, it is worthy of protest. Its when you start making farfetched generalizations that a problem comes up.

You are also right that there are two sides to this. That's why I am not making any generalization about the accountability of cops either and why I judge these issues on a case by case basis instead of pushing a single narrative.

First you would have have followed more than one case. Second the systematic racism isnt just about unarmed black men getting killed. You are the one looking to boil it down to just that. The profiling which leads to many more unessesary interactions which may escalate into an unamred man getting killed is also apart of that but also just another layer. As is the fact that the officers may not be held accountable for it another layer. But even those are just pieces of the whole issue of systematic racism.

Also to be more accurate if the target is systematic racism for you argument. Then you would have to use police forces who cover a highly poplulated AA areas. Which lowers the number of overall officers you want to compare. Cops dealing with mostly white civilians can't be attributed to the number of officers when speaking about systematic racism,

If your talking about police brutality in general then that's different.


I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

OK let's just stop with the pretense here. This country was established with Racism at its core! Can we not pretend that there aren't deeply entrenched problems with race? Let's not insult everyone's intelligence here.

Even when there is no individual racist intent the outcomes are often racially disparate. The problem is that there has been such a long and complex set of built in racist practices that it's on automatic. It no longer required active participation, although there is at least some amount of actual individual racism.

Change requires intentional action or else the problems persist. The racist inequality was built in intentionally over decades so it's not a simple fix. The reason this is STILL an issue is precisely because the Majority has never seriously addressed the problem. Rather it's been dragged along slowly, kicking and screaming all these decades. Often the bare minimum has been done. That too is no accident.

Even now there are those in the Republican Party who play with Racist Dog Whistles because it falls to their benefit.

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

Most AMERICANS are not racist! Most Americans did not own slaves or join the KKK. That has never been necessary for laws or policies to be made that can be used to disadvantage Minorities. Red Lining and Predatory Lending still goes on. Charging Minorities more still goes on. Over Policing, Sentencing and abuse still goes on. There's not a facet of American society where there isn't a big racial disparity.

Knickoftime
Posts: 23204
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2011
Member: #3370

10/7/2017  9:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2017  9:22 PM
TPercy wrote:I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and understand your point. It seems like you regarding the term racist solely as a pejorative and not as a description. Wherever racism exists, here or anywhere, can aptly be called racist, because language.

It seems like you and others hear the word 'racist' being used and you regard it as a wholesale condemnation of everything.

Try to imagine yourself as a person who experiences racism first hand. I'm white, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to understand arguments like, 'well, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be,' or 'it isn't just us' may not carry the same weight as it does to you.

TPercy
Posts: 24633
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  9:18 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.

If the one instance you can recall is Castillo then that is a problem in itself.

The shooting spree example is basically saying how ratio and % numbers don't hold much weight when it comes to people losing their lives. One person losing their life unjustly is worthy of a protest.

There have been more than one.

There is also 2 sides to this. Can you provide evidence that officers are held accountable for the killing of unarmed men at a justifiable rate? There have been a lot of high profile cases with a lot of eyes on the judgement which see officers not exonerated. This is the data the public is going to go by. And have not seen much data presented to show the opposite.


I am on my phone. I will provide more cases than Castillo for you when I get to my notebook.

You are right, if one man is killed by a cop unjustly and nothing is done about it, it is worthy of protest. Its when you start making farfetched generalizations that a problem comes up.

You are also right that there are two sides to this. That's why I am not making any generalization about the accountability of cops either and why I judge these issues on a case by case basis instead of pushing a single narrative.

First you would have have followed more than one case. Second the systematic racism isnt just about unarmed black men getting killed. You are the one looking to boil it down to just that. The profiling which leads to many more unessesary interactions which may escalate into an unamred man getting killed is also apart of that but also just another layer. As is the fact that the officers may not be held accountable for it another layer. But even those are just pieces of the whole issue of systematic racism.

Also to be more accurate if the target is systematic racism for you argument. Then you would have to use police forces who cover a highly poplulated AA areas. Which lowers the number of overall officers you want to compare. Cops dealing with mostly white civilians can't be attributed to the number of officers when speaking about systematic racism,

If your talking about police brutality in general then that's different.


I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

OK let's just stop with the pretense here. This country was established with Racism at its core! Can we not pretend that there aren't deeply entrenched problems with race? Let's not insult everyone's intelligence here.

Even when there is no individual racist intent the outcomes are often racially disparate. The problem is that there has been such a long and complex set of built in racist practices that it's on automatic. It no longer required active participation, although there is at least some amount of actual individual racism.

Change requires intentional action or else the problems persist. The racist inequality was built in intentionally over decades so it's not a simple fix. The reason this is STILL an issue is precisely because the Majority has never seriously addressed the problem. Rather it's been dragged along slowly, kicking and screaming all these decades. Often the bare minimum has been done. That too is no accident.

Even now there are those in the Republican Party who play with Racist Dog Whistles because it falls to their benefit.

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

Most AMERICANS are not racist! Most Americans did not own slaves or join the KKK. That has never been necessary for laws or policies to be made that can be used to disadvantage Minorities. Red Lining and Predatory Lending still goes on. Charging Minorities more still goes on. Over Policing, Sentencing and abuse still goes on. There's not a facet of American society where there isn't a big racial disparity.

I agree that there are problems with the police and the criminal justice system isn't at its best, but when talking about housing, red lining and predatory lending has been illegalized.

The Future is Bright!
TPercy
Posts: 24633
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  9:28 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2017  9:30 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
TPercy wrote:I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and understand your point. It seems like you regarding the term racist solely as a pejorative and not as a description. Wherever racism exists, here or anywhere, can aptly be called racist, because language.

It seems like you and others hear the word 'racist' being used and you regard it as a wholesale combination of everything.

Try to imagine yourself as a person who experiences racism first hand. I'm white, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to understand arguments like, 'well, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be,' or 'it isn't just us' may not carry the same weight as it does to you.


This is flawed logic. Because racism exists in a place doesn't make the place racist, especially if the place as a whole dosen't intend on being racist.

The fact that you assume that I've never experienced racism annoys the ****ing hell out of me even if that is not your intention. I am a proud African American man who has dealt with his fair share of racism and it sucks. I'm not making the argument that because America is a lot better than it was in the past, that means we should ignore racial issues. That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that we can't call America as a nation racist.

The Future is Bright!
Knickoftime
Posts: 23204
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2011
Member: #3370

10/7/2017  9:38 PM
TPercy wrote:This is flawed logic. Because racism exists in a place doesn't make the place racist, especially if the place as a whole dosen't intend on being racist.

I'm sorry I disagree, racist describes the existence of, not the predominance of.

The fact that you assume that I've never experienced racism annoys the ****ing hell out of me even if that is not your intention.

Genuine apologies.

I am a proud African American man who has dealt with his fair share of racism and it sucks. I'm not making the argument that because America is a lot better than it was in the past, that means we should ignore racial issues. That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that we can't call America as a nation racist.

I don't agree, and I'm not sure how important or relevant our disagreement is to the issue at hand.

nixluva
Posts: 55256
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
10/7/2017  9:44 PM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.

If the one instance you can recall is Castillo then that is a problem in itself.

The shooting spree example is basically saying how ratio and % numbers don't hold much weight when it comes to people losing their lives. One person losing their life unjustly is worthy of a protest.

There have been more than one.

There is also 2 sides to this. Can you provide evidence that officers are held accountable for the killing of unarmed men at a justifiable rate? There have been a lot of high profile cases with a lot of eyes on the judgement which see officers not exonerated. This is the data the public is going to go by. And have not seen much data presented to show the opposite.


I am on my phone. I will provide more cases than Castillo for you when I get to my notebook.

You are right, if one man is killed by a cop unjustly and nothing is done about it, it is worthy of protest. Its when you start making farfetched generalizations that a problem comes up.

You are also right that there are two sides to this. That's why I am not making any generalization about the accountability of cops either and why I judge these issues on a case by case basis instead of pushing a single narrative.

First you would have have followed more than one case. Second the systematic racism isnt just about unarmed black men getting killed. You are the one looking to boil it down to just that. The profiling which leads to many more unessesary interactions which may escalate into an unamred man getting killed is also apart of that but also just another layer. As is the fact that the officers may not be held accountable for it another layer. But even those are just pieces of the whole issue of systematic racism.

Also to be more accurate if the target is systematic racism for you argument. Then you would have to use police forces who cover a highly poplulated AA areas. Which lowers the number of overall officers you want to compare. Cops dealing with mostly white civilians can't be attributed to the number of officers when speaking about systematic racism,

If your talking about police brutality in general then that's different.


I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

OK let's just stop with the pretense here. This country was established with Racism at its core! Can we not pretend that there aren't deeply entrenched problems with race? Let's not insult everyone's intelligence here.

Even when there is no individual racist intent the outcomes are often racially disparate. The problem is that there has been such a long and complex set of built in racist practices that it's on automatic. It no longer required active participation, although there is at least some amount of actual individual racism.

Change requires intentional action or else the problems persist. The racist inequality was built in intentionally over decades so it's not a simple fix. The reason this is STILL an issue is precisely because the Majority has never seriously addressed the problem. Rather it's been dragged along slowly, kicking and screaming all these decades. Often the bare minimum has been done. That too is no accident.

Even now there are those in the Republican Party who play with Racist Dog Whistles because it falls to their benefit.

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

Most AMERICANS are not racist! Most Americans did not own slaves or join the KKK. That has never been necessary for laws or policies to be made that can be used to disadvantage Minorities. Red Lining and Predatory Lending still goes on. Charging Minorities more still goes on. Over Policing, Sentencing and abuse still goes on. There's not a facet of American society where there isn't a big racial disparity.

I agree that there are problems with the police and the criminal justice system isn't at its best, but when talking about housing, red lining and predatory lending has been illegalized.

Making something illegal is separate from ENFORCEMENT. Many laws have been changed or enacted but the problem is the racial disparity in how they're applied. This is a problem that has been documented but more research is needed.

AA's have been targeted by Banks, Payday Lenders, Insurers, Police Departments by profiling and ticketing AA's and extracting revenue from them. I think you may not be willing to accept that these things are happening even now.

TPercy
Posts: 24633
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10/7/2017  9:53 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
TPercy wrote:This is flawed logic. Because racism exists in a place doesn't make the place racist, especially if the place as a whole dosen't intend on being racist.

I'm sorry I disagree, racist describes the existence of, not the predominance of.

The fact that you assume that I've never experienced racism annoys the ****ing hell out of me even if that is not your intention.

Genuine apologies.

I am a proud African American man who has dealt with his fair share of racism and it sucks. I'm not making the argument that because America is a lot better than it was in the past, that means we should ignore racial issues. That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that we can't call America as a nation racist.

I don't agree, and I'm not sure how important or relevant our disagreement is to the issue at hand.


Racism in the most basic definition as defined by Google "a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another." America today doesn't stand for white supremacy nor its structures. There is a difference between "America has racism" "America is racist"

I accept the apology

I think that whether or not we brand America as a racist nation matters because it implies that the people in America are racist aswell.

The Future is Bright!
nixluva
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10/7/2017  9:56 PM
TPercy wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
TPercy wrote:I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and understand your point. It seems like you regarding the term racist solely as a pejorative and not as a description. Wherever racism exists, here or anywhere, can aptly be called racist, because language.

It seems like you and others hear the word 'racist' being used and you regard it as a wholesale combination of everything.

Try to imagine yourself as a person who experiences racism first hand. I'm white, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to understand arguments like, 'well, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be,' or 'it isn't just us' may not carry the same weight as it does to you.


This is flawed logic. Because racism exists in a place doesn't make the place racist, especially if the place as a whole dosen't intend on being racist.

The fact that you assume that I've never experienced racism annoys the ****ing hell out of me even if that is not your intention. I am a proud African American man who has dealt with his fair share of racism and it sucks. I'm not making the argument that because America is a lot better than it was in the past, that means we should ignore racial issues. That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that we can't call America as a nation racist.


I think it's fair and accurate to say that aspects of American Society and Policies have Racist Outcomes!!!

Bruh where do you live? I'm curious now cuz I'd have to assume you haven't spent a lot of time in areas where Broken Windows style Policing and Profiling is prevalent. Also poor AA Communities in particular are affected to a great degree.

TPercy
Posts: 24633
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  9:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2017  9:59 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.

If the one instance you can recall is Castillo then that is a problem in itself.

The shooting spree example is basically saying how ratio and % numbers don't hold much weight when it comes to people losing their lives. One person losing their life unjustly is worthy of a protest.

There have been more than one.

There is also 2 sides to this. Can you provide evidence that officers are held accountable for the killing of unarmed men at a justifiable rate? There have been a lot of high profile cases with a lot of eyes on the judgement which see officers not exonerated. This is the data the public is going to go by. And have not seen much data presented to show the opposite.


I am on my phone. I will provide more cases than Castillo for you when I get to my notebook.

You are right, if one man is killed by a cop unjustly and nothing is done about it, it is worthy of protest. Its when you start making farfetched generalizations that a problem comes up.

You are also right that there are two sides to this. That's why I am not making any generalization about the accountability of cops either and why I judge these issues on a case by case basis instead of pushing a single narrative.

First you would have have followed more than one case. Second the systematic racism isnt just about unarmed black men getting killed. You are the one looking to boil it down to just that. The profiling which leads to many more unessesary interactions which may escalate into an unamred man getting killed is also apart of that but also just another layer. As is the fact that the officers may not be held accountable for it another layer. But even those are just pieces of the whole issue of systematic racism.

Also to be more accurate if the target is systematic racism for you argument. Then you would have to use police forces who cover a highly poplulated AA areas. Which lowers the number of overall officers you want to compare. Cops dealing with mostly white civilians can't be attributed to the number of officers when speaking about systematic racism,

If your talking about police brutality in general then that's different.


I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

OK let's just stop with the pretense here. This country was established with Racism at its core! Can we not pretend that there aren't deeply entrenched problems with race? Let's not insult everyone's intelligence here.

Even when there is no individual racist intent the outcomes are often racially disparate. The problem is that there has been such a long and complex set of built in racist practices that it's on automatic. It no longer required active participation, although there is at least some amount of actual individual racism.

Change requires intentional action or else the problems persist. The racist inequality was built in intentionally over decades so it's not a simple fix. The reason this is STILL an issue is precisely because the Majority has never seriously addressed the problem. Rather it's been dragged along slowly, kicking and screaming all these decades. Often the bare minimum has been done. That too is no accident.

Even now there are those in the Republican Party who play with Racist Dog Whistles because it falls to their benefit.

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

Most AMERICANS are not racist! Most Americans did not own slaves or join the KKK. That has never been necessary for laws or policies to be made that can be used to disadvantage Minorities. Red Lining and Predatory Lending still goes on. Charging Minorities more still goes on. Over Policing, Sentencing and abuse still goes on. There's not a facet of American society where there isn't a big racial disparity.

I agree that there are problems with the police and the criminal justice system isn't at its best, but when talking about housing, red lining and predatory lending has been illegalized.

Making something illegal is separate from ENFORCEMENT. Many laws have been changed or enacted but the problem is the racial disparity in how they're applied. This is a problem that has been documented but more research is needed.

AA's have been targeted by Banks, Payday Lenders, Insurers, Police Departments by profiling and ticketing AA's and extracting revenue from them. I think you may not be willing to accept that these things are happening even now.

JP Morgan just settled for $55m for lending discrimination and I believe two years ago another city settled for redlining. One thing I do know is that certain city governments across the nation engage in snub zoning that keeps developers from building affordable housing in affluent neighborhoods. Whether or not these instances are race based I don't have concrete evidence, but given how African Americans make up most of the people who suffer from lack of housing( correct me if I am wrong) I think this does disportionately affect African Americans.

We know that AA's are being targeted for by police but this isn't a problem on the national level nor are most of the issues ongoing today.

The Future is Bright!
TPercy
Posts: 24633
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Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  10:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2017  10:08 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
TPercy wrote:I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and understand your point. It seems like you regarding the term racist solely as a pejorative and not as a description. Wherever racism exists, here or anywhere, can aptly be called racist, because language.

It seems like you and others hear the word 'racist' being used and you regard it as a wholesale combination of everything.

Try to imagine yourself as a person who experiences racism first hand. I'm white, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to understand arguments like, 'well, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be,' or 'it isn't just us' may not carry the same weight as it does to you.


This is flawed logic. Because racism exists in a place doesn't make the place racist, especially if the place as a whole dosen't intend on being racist.

The fact that you assume that I've never experienced racism annoys the ****ing hell out of me even if that is not your intention. I am a proud African American man who has dealt with his fair share of racism and it sucks. I'm not making the argument that because America is a lot better than it was in the past, that means we should ignore racial issues. That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that we can't call America as a nation racist.


I think it's fair and accurate to say that aspects of American Society and Policies have Racist Outcomes!!!

Bruh where do you live? I'm curious now cuz I'd have to assume you haven't spent a lot of time in areas where Broken Windows style Policing and Profiling is prevalent. Also poor AA Communities in particular are affected to a great degree.

I agree with this 100% There is no debate about this. But this is where this debate becomes a matter of language as Knickoftime hinted to earlier. Does having racism mean we can call America as a whole racist? I don't think so


FYI I grew up in DC. I definitely wasn't from a poor community but not a rich one either. I'm a youngin, but growing up police in DC hasn't really had serious issues with race. Although tensions have definitely gotten worse I would say.

The Future is Bright!
nixluva
Posts: 55256
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Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
10/7/2017  10:15 PM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
TPercy wrote:I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and understand your point. It seems like you regarding the term racist solely as a pejorative and not as a description. Wherever racism exists, here or anywhere, can aptly be called racist, because language.

It seems like you and others hear the word 'racist' being used and you regard it as a wholesale combination of everything.

Try to imagine yourself as a person who experiences racism first hand. I'm white, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to understand arguments like, 'well, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be,' or 'it isn't just us' may not carry the same weight as it does to you.


This is flawed logic. Because racism exists in a place doesn't make the place racist, especially if the place as a whole dosen't intend on being racist.

The fact that you assume that I've never experienced racism annoys the ****ing hell out of me even if that is not your intention. I am a proud African American man who has dealt with his fair share of racism and it sucks. I'm not making the argument that because America is a lot better than it was in the past, that means we should ignore racial issues. That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that we can't call America as a nation racist.


I think it's fair and accurate to say that aspects of American Society and Policies have Racist Outcomes!!!

Bruh where do you live? I'm curious now cuz I'd have to assume you haven't spent a lot of time in areas where Broken Windows style Policing and Profiling is prevalent. Also poor AA Communities in particular are affected to a great degree.

I agree with this 100% There is no debate about this. But this is where this debate becomes a matter of language as Knickoftime hinted to earlier. Does having racism mean we can call America as a whole racist? I don't think so


FYI I grew up in DC. I definitely wasn't from a poor community but not a rich one either.

There's almost no way to really gauge your theory as to whether you can call America as a whole Racist. There's so much clustering of AA's that a large percentage of the country simply has no significant representation of AA's. This is a map i've posted before and it illustrates the point i'm trying to make about how the AA population is clustered mostly in the former Slave States.

I can assure you that things are MUCH different in these Deep Southern areas. I spend a lot of time with Family spread all over the South and i'm very familiar with the Poorest communities down here. I continue to say that people for the most part just don't know how different things are.

TPercy
Posts: 24633
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  10:25 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
TPercy wrote:I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and understand your point. It seems like you regarding the term racist solely as a pejorative and not as a description. Wherever racism exists, here or anywhere, can aptly be called racist, because language.

It seems like you and others hear the word 'racist' being used and you regard it as a wholesale combination of everything.

Try to imagine yourself as a person who experiences racism first hand. I'm white, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to understand arguments like, 'well, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be,' or 'it isn't just us' may not carry the same weight as it does to you.


This is flawed logic. Because racism exists in a place doesn't make the place racist, especially if the place as a whole dosen't intend on being racist.

The fact that you assume that I've never experienced racism annoys the ****ing hell out of me even if that is not your intention. I am a proud African American man who has dealt with his fair share of racism and it sucks. I'm not making the argument that because America is a lot better than it was in the past, that means we should ignore racial issues. That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that we can't call America as a nation racist.


I think it's fair and accurate to say that aspects of American Society and Policies have Racist Outcomes!!!

Bruh where do you live? I'm curious now cuz I'd have to assume you haven't spent a lot of time in areas where Broken Windows style Policing and Profiling is prevalent. Also poor AA Communities in particular are affected to a great degree.

I agree with this 100% There is no debate about this. But this is where this debate becomes a matter of language as Knickoftime hinted to earlier. Does having racism mean we can call America as a whole racist? I don't think so


FYI I grew up in DC. I definitely wasn't from a poor community but not a rich one either.

There's almost no way to really gauge your theory as to whether you can call America as a whole Racist. There's so much clustering of AA's that a large percentage of the country simply has no significant representation of AA's. This is a map i've posted before and it illustrates the point i'm trying to make about how the AA population is clustered mostly in the former Slave States.

I can assure you that things are MUCH different in these Deep Southern areas. I spend a lot of time with Family spread all over the South and i'm very familiar with the Poorest communities down here. I continue to say that people for the most part just don't know how different things are.

Don't you see it though? Our situations as to where we grew up are quite different and because of that, can we really call US racist? I'm not saying this to downplay racism in the deep south. I don't live there and the furthest I have ever gone south would be either to Dallas or Orlando. I'm just trying to call attention to the fact that we can't always brand these issues as national problems when our encounters with racism have been different.

The Future is Bright!
nixluva
Posts: 55256
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Member: #758
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10/7/2017  10:55 PM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
TPercy wrote:I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and understand your point. It seems like you regarding the term racist solely as a pejorative and not as a description. Wherever racism exists, here or anywhere, can aptly be called racist, because language.

It seems like you and others hear the word 'racist' being used and you regard it as a wholesale combination of everything.

Try to imagine yourself as a person who experiences racism first hand. I'm white, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to understand arguments like, 'well, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be,' or 'it isn't just us' may not carry the same weight as it does to you.


This is flawed logic. Because racism exists in a place doesn't make the place racist, especially if the place as a whole dosen't intend on being racist.

The fact that you assume that I've never experienced racism annoys the ****ing hell out of me even if that is not your intention. I am a proud African American man who has dealt with his fair share of racism and it sucks. I'm not making the argument that because America is a lot better than it was in the past, that means we should ignore racial issues. That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that we can't call America as a nation racist.


I think it's fair and accurate to say that aspects of American Society and Policies have Racist Outcomes!!!

Bruh where do you live? I'm curious now cuz I'd have to assume you haven't spent a lot of time in areas where Broken Windows style Policing and Profiling is prevalent. Also poor AA Communities in particular are affected to a great degree.

I agree with this 100% There is no debate about this. But this is where this debate becomes a matter of language as Knickoftime hinted to earlier. Does having racism mean we can call America as a whole racist? I don't think so


FYI I grew up in DC. I definitely wasn't from a poor community but not a rich one either.

There's almost no way to really gauge your theory as to whether you can call America as a whole Racist. There's so much clustering of AA's that a large percentage of the country simply has no significant representation of AA's. This is a map i've posted before and it illustrates the point i'm trying to make about how the AA population is clustered mostly in the former Slave States.

I can assure you that things are MUCH different in these Deep Southern areas. I spend a lot of time with Family spread all over the South and i'm very familiar with the Poorest communities down here. I continue to say that people for the most part just don't know how different things are.

Don't you see it though? Our situations as to where we grew up are quite different and because of that, can we really call US racist? I'm not saying this to downplay racism in the deep south. I don't live there and the furthest I have ever gone south would be either to Dallas or Orlando. I'm just trying to call attention to the fact that we can't always brand these issues as national problems when our encounters with racism have been different.

I was born and raised in New York but my family is originally from the South so I spent time visiting relatives and now I live in Georgia since 2004.

I think perhaps we're just talking past each other when we say AMERICA. There's no way you can really say it's wrong to say America has a Race problem when the issues extend beyond the South! Yes the South has its well established problems but it's not contained there.

Just cuz there are many States with practically no AA's doesn't mean it's not a national problem. And I'd stress again that I'm not really talking about individuals. SYSTEMIC racism is the biggest problem.

newyorknewyork
Posts: 27072
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
10/8/2017  11:19 AM
https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

TPercy, here is an article that has done the research for you.


https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22008392_10214705041962963_7501126303057149593_n.jpg?oh=f12077eb886b0023f7a0daf1f23d63e0&oe=5A7CF59E

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2016/07/11/america-police-shooting-timeline

http://www.theroot.com/in-case-you-forgot-cops-are-still-killing-black-people-1793597703

TPercy
Posts: 24633
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/8/2017  11:40 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/8/2017  11:54 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

TPercy, here is an article that has done the research for you.


https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22008392_10214705041962963_7501126303057149593_n.jpg?oh=f12077eb886b0023f7a0daf1f23d63e0&oe=5A7CF59E

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2016/07/11/america-police-shooting-timeline

http://www.theroot.com/in-case-you-forgot-cops-are-still-killing-black-people-1793597703


The zero accountability stat is worrying to me. It suggests that everytime those officers stood trial, the jury of their peers/ judge got it wrong 99% of the time. The justice system has serious issues...but not issues like that. As for the cops not charged with a crime, it asusmes that when an officer shot someone armed or not, they were already in the wrong.

Also that picture of the people of the people who recieved no conviction is faulty. There was so much context behind all of them and the only one where a blatant miscarrage of justice was found I believe was Castile and the really old lady, and Rekia Boyd(thank the idiot prosecutor for that)

The Future is Bright!
arkrud
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USA
10/8/2017  12:12 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/8/2017  12:15 PM
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

TPercy, here is an article that has done the research for you.


https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22008392_10214705041962963_7501126303057149593_n.jpg?oh=f12077eb886b0023f7a0daf1f23d63e0&oe=5A7CF59E

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2016/07/11/america-police-shooting-timeline

http://www.theroot.com/in-case-you-forgot-cops-are-still-killing-black-people-1793597703


The zero accountability stat is worrying to me. It suggests that everytime those officers stood trial, the jury of their peers/ judge got it wrong 99% of the time. The justice system has serious issues...but not issues like that. As for the cops not charged with a crime, it asusmes that when an officer shot someone armed or not, they were already in the wrong.

Also that picture of the people of the people who recieved no conviction is faulty. There was so much context behind all of them and the only one where a blatant miscarrage of justice was found I believe was Castile and the really old lady, and Rekia Boyd(thank the idiot prosecutor for that)

I am outsider so sorry to interfere in very insightful and respectful debate.
There are always 2 sides of the issue - the factual practical and emotional.
Obviously from factual practical point of view US as a whole and all US population cannot be labeled as racist but from emotional point of view they surely can.
So when athletes protest the anthem some of them truly emotionally believe that if the issues with police profiling, disproportional killing of unarmed AA man, and other cases of racism exist all American people are responsible as supporters of American law and executive power as it is.
So anthem as representation of American way of live is logical target to condemn all American people for supporting racism by supporting America.
Every human needs emotional way out to not get depressed, suicidal, and violent.
So I think all people who understand the situation and emotional impact of it should let it go and allow this protest to take place and be in peace with it.
If nobody will show any outrage about it any more the protest itself will lose emotional attraction and will naturally stop happening.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
TPercy
Posts: 24633
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/8/2017  12:24 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
TPercy wrote:I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

No one is denying that racism was the core of when America was established and that its effects still plague this country today. This is true of any nation with a dark past;however, America isn't what is was in 1791. America has come a long way from that although work still needs to be done. That being said, just because work still needs to be done, doesn't mean that we can brand America as a racist nation. As you stated addressing this issue isn't a simple fix, but we can't simply it by saying its a simple as America being a racist nation in and of itself; instead, we should take a much better look at issues plaguing communities of color and look to correct them.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and understand your point. It seems like you regarding the term racist solely as a pejorative and not as a description. Wherever racism exists, here or anywhere, can aptly be called racist, because language.

It seems like you and others hear the word 'racist' being used and you regard it as a wholesale combination of everything.

Try to imagine yourself as a person who experiences racism first hand. I'm white, but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to understand arguments like, 'well, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be,' or 'it isn't just us' may not carry the same weight as it does to you.


This is flawed logic. Because racism exists in a place doesn't make the place racist, especially if the place as a whole dosen't intend on being racist.

The fact that you assume that I've never experienced racism annoys the ****ing hell out of me even if that is not your intention. I am a proud African American man who has dealt with his fair share of racism and it sucks. I'm not making the argument that because America is a lot better than it was in the past, that means we should ignore racial issues. That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that we can't call America as a nation racist.


I think it's fair and accurate to say that aspects of American Society and Policies have Racist Outcomes!!!

Bruh where do you live? I'm curious now cuz I'd have to assume you haven't spent a lot of time in areas where Broken Windows style Policing and Profiling is prevalent. Also poor AA Communities in particular are affected to a great degree.

I agree with this 100% There is no debate about this. But this is where this debate becomes a matter of language as Knickoftime hinted to earlier. Does having racism mean we can call America as a whole racist? I don't think so


FYI I grew up in DC. I definitely wasn't from a poor community but not a rich one either.

There's almost no way to really gauge your theory as to whether you can call America as a whole Racist. There's so much clustering of AA's that a large percentage of the country simply has no significant representation of AA's. This is a map i've posted before and it illustrates the point i'm trying to make about how the AA population is clustered mostly in the former Slave States.

I can assure you that things are MUCH different in these Deep Southern areas. I spend a lot of time with Family spread all over the South and i'm very familiar with the Poorest communities down here. I continue to say that people for the most part just don't know how different things are.

Don't you see it though? Our situations as to where we grew up are quite different and because of that, can we really call US racist? I'm not saying this to downplay racism in the deep south. I don't live there and the furthest I have ever gone south would be either to Dallas or Orlando. I'm just trying to call attention to the fact that we can't always brand these issues as national problems when our encounters with racism have been different.

I was born and raised in New York but my family is originally from the South so I spent time visiting relatives and now I live in Georgia since 2004.

I think perhaps we're just talking past each other when we say AMERICA. There's no way you can really say it's wrong to say America has a Race problem when the issues extend beyond the South! Yes the South has its well established problems but it's not contained there.

Just cuz there are many States with practically no AA's doesn't mean it's not a national problem. And I'd stress again that I'm not really talking about individuals. SYSTEMIC racism is the biggest problem.


I think we can settle on this.
The Future is Bright!
TPercy
Posts: 24633
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/8/2017  12:30 PM
arkrud wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

TPercy, here is an article that has done the research for you.


https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22008392_10214705041962963_7501126303057149593_n.jpg?oh=f12077eb886b0023f7a0daf1f23d63e0&oe=5A7CF59E

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2016/07/11/america-police-shooting-timeline

http://www.theroot.com/in-case-you-forgot-cops-are-still-killing-black-people-1793597703


The zero accountability stat is worrying to me. It suggests that everytime those officers stood trial, the jury of their peers/ judge got it wrong 99% of the time. The justice system has serious issues...but not issues like that. As for the cops not charged with a crime, it asusmes that when an officer shot someone armed or not, they were already in the wrong.

Also that picture of the people of the people who recieved no conviction is faulty. There was so much context behind all of them and the only one where a blatant miscarrage of justice was found I believe was Castile and the really old lady, and Rekia Boyd(thank the idiot prosecutor for that)

I am outsider so sorry to interfere in very insightful and respectful debate.
There are always 2 sides of the issue - the factual practical and emotional.
Obviously from factual practical point of view US as a whole and all US population cannot be labeled as racist but from emotional point of view they surely can.
So when athletes protest the anthem some of them truly emotionally believe that if the issues with police profiling, disproportional killing of unarmed AA man, and other cases of racism exist all American people are responsible as supporters of American law and executive power as it is.
So anthem as representation of American way of live is logical target to condemn all American people for supporting racism by supporting America.
Every human needs emotional way out to not get depressed, suicidal, and violent.
So I think all people who understand the situation and emotional impact of it should let it go and allow this protest to take place and be in peace with it.
If nobody will show any outrage about it any more the protest itself will lose emotional attraction and will naturally stop happening.

We should never make protest of of something purely emotional. Facts don't care about your feelings. Emotion is only going to stir up more up more emotion.

The Future is Bright!
TheGame
Posts: 25155
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USA
10/8/2017  1:33 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/8/2017  1:38 PM
The players are being unwise in the taking a knee stance. While I am fully aware that it has nothing to do with the military or even the flag, in deciding to protest in this manner, the players have given their opponents a ready-made excuse for opposition. Pence and others can avoid the issue of police brutality entirely and make it all about, you are disrespecting the flag and our troops. Now I know that is BS. If the players said they were kneeling to protest the way our soldiers don't have proper medical treatment, no one would claim they are disrespecting the flag. The bottomline is that the right does not believe in or care about police brutality and they want no part of seeing black players protesting about it. However, in choosing to kneel during the anthem, the players are giving them cover so they can say, "oh it is not that we are against black people protesting because we don't give a sh-t about them, it is because they are disrespecting the flag and our military." The players need to stop and separate their protests from anything dealing with the anthem. It is just a bad optic and the right are licking their chops at the opportunity to make this an issue next year. As Brannon said, the right wants to make all the elections about race because they feel white people in general will side with republicans if the elections are about picking sides on the racial divide. This is why Trump called out the players at that rally, this is why Rush and others are hyping the issue, and this way the right will not let it go. We have to outthink these guys and not let our outrage control our actions.

The NBA players (at least some of them) saw what Trump was doing, and they are not falling for the trap. (Plus, the NBA rules bar protest during the anthem).

Playoffs or bust
OT: Why They Take A Knee

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