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OT: Why They Take A Knee
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newyorknewyork
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10/7/2017  3:42 PM
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

That's a good question. And I wouldn't be able to know for a fact the actual number or ratio or %. Regardless the amount of dudes that have been shot with no accoutablility has been way to high.

And again just one layer.

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TPercy
Posts: 24475
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10/7/2017  3:46 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

The Future is Bright!
nixluva
Posts: 54674
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USA
10/7/2017  3:49 PM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

I don't think anyone is suggesting All or even Most police are bad or Racist. The problem is that there is a problem with how Police are trained and often many policies that create the circumstances for abuse and unfortunately killings.

IF you live in a community or City that has historically over policed and been over aggressive in tactics that's a systemic problem.

Investigators have found abuse in Police Departments
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6787804

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/us/justice-dept-inquiry-finds-abuses-by-cleveland-police.html?referer=https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVyFJEdlZyZsAuBtx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1507426761/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2014%2f12%2f05%2fus%2fjustice-dept-inquiry-finds-abuses-by-cleveland-police.html/RK=1/RS=XAd9T8Btr2RKBbSlaX9OwyYU38c-

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/08/09/489372162/justice-department-to-issue-critical-report-on-baltimore-police-department

Nix I agree with you on this but I believe that this is an issue that must be tackled on the state level. All states are inherently different and as such how they execute their police powers are going to be different as well. There is no single national curriculum for police training; instead, the training requirements and protocol is different. The cops in Baltimore and Cleveland as you cited have problems with their use of force, that doesn't mean that same problem is the same in other states, which kind of ties into part of issues with protesting police brutality on a national level because it assumes that this is a problem that must be tackled centrally instead of encouraging states and in particular cities to gather data and find a way of tackling it from there.

Well I think perhaps you may be misunderstanding the purpose of the National movement. Best practices are best practices and teaching proper engagement with citizens will be generally applicable no matter where you are. Of course you can't have a Boilerplate solution that fits all the various Cities and Towns but the problem is that FAR TOO MANY Police Departments fail entirely to even recognize they have a problem.

We're talking about GROSS abuse across multiple cities over decades. Until the protests pretty much forced the DOJ to go in and investigate NO ONE was looking to change or improve anything. In fact these Police Departments denied there was even a problem.

You are proposing that cities should all adopt a uniform practice and I don't think that is a reasonable goal because as I stated previously different states have different issues, not to mention whst you are asking for would be unconstitutional if I interpreted what you said correctly.

What multiple cities are we talking about here? Was there a city by city study done across the nation that I'm unaware of? Not to mention I'm fairly certain the investigation into the Baltimore PD happened before Kap started protesting

I think there's a basic set of practices that can form the core of a program that can then be tailored to the different Police Departments. Not all Police Dept's have issues but clearly enough of them do for this to be a problem.

You sound like someone who doubts there's actually a problem which IMO is the reason this has been going on decades. The problem stems from the fact that AA's are a minority and MOST Americans in the majority have no frame of reference because they don't live or work in AA Communities. Also an AA has a different lived experience, which is the entire point of bringing this to the attention of the rest of America.

nixluva
Posts: 54674
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USA
10/7/2017  3:56 PM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

You don't seem to realize that there have been other Police Departments with the same issues!!! It's clear that your frame of view is a BIG part of the problem in this country and always has been. Until MLK and other Civil Rights Activists protested and PROVED just how Racist and Violent things were MOST Americans didn't think there was a problem cuz it didn't impact their lives.

TPercy
Posts: 24475
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  3:56 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

That's a good question. And I wouldn't be able to know for a fact the actual number or ratio or %. Regardless the amount of dudes that have been shot with no accoutablility has been way to high.

And again just one layer.

We don't know that for sure the number of cops not being held accountable is too high.


I agree with you that police brutality is just one layer and the criminal justice system definitely needs reform. However, these aren't the reasons that KAP and co are protesting during the anthem. He believes that America stands for racism and that it oppressed people of color. There are issues that me and countless other people on this board need to be addressed but we can't just claim that America as a whole is responsible.

This is why I hate the need for a narrative in this country from both sides. It diverts us from the concept that truly matters: justice.

The Future is Bright!
newyorknewyork
Posts: 26895
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
10/7/2017  4:04 PM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.

TPercy
Posts: 24475
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Member: #5748

10/7/2017  4:09 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

I don't think anyone is suggesting All or even Most police are bad or Racist. The problem is that there is a problem with how Police are trained and often many policies that create the circumstances for abuse and unfortunately killings.

IF you live in a community or City that has historically over policed and been over aggressive in tactics that's a systemic problem.

Investigators have found abuse in Police Departments
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6787804

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/us/justice-dept-inquiry-finds-abuses-by-cleveland-police.html?referer=https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVyFJEdlZyZsAuBtx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1507426761/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2014%2f12%2f05%2fus%2fjustice-dept-inquiry-finds-abuses-by-cleveland-police.html/RK=1/RS=XAd9T8Btr2RKBbSlaX9OwyYU38c-

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/08/09/489372162/justice-department-to-issue-critical-report-on-baltimore-police-department

Nix I agree with you on this but I believe that this is an issue that must be tackled on the state level. All states are inherently different and as such how they execute their police powers are going to be different as well. There is no single national curriculum for police training; instead, the training requirements and protocol is different. The cops in Baltimore and Cleveland as you cited have problems with their use of force, that doesn't mean that same problem is the same in other states, which kind of ties into part of issues with protesting police brutality on a national level because it assumes that this is a problem that must be tackled centrally instead of encouraging states and in particular cities to gather data and find a way of tackling it from there.

Well I think perhaps you may be misunderstanding the purpose of the National movement. Best practices are best practices and teaching proper engagement with citizens will be generally applicable no matter where you are. Of course you can't have a Boilerplate solution that fits all the various Cities and Towns but the problem is that FAR TOO MANY Police Departments fail entirely to even recognize they have a problem.

We're talking about GROSS abuse across multiple cities over decades. Until the protests pretty much forced the DOJ to go in and investigate NO ONE was looking to change or improve anything. In fact these Police Departments denied there was even a problem.

You are proposing that cities should all adopt a uniform practice and I don't think that is a reasonable goal because as I stated previously different states have different issues, not to mention whst you are asking for would be unconstitutional if I interpreted what you said correctly.

What multiple cities are we talking about here? Was there a city by city study done across the nation that I'm unaware of? Not to mention I'm fairly certain the investigation into the Baltimore PD happened before Kap started protesting

I think there's a basic set of practices that can form the core of a program that can then be tailored to the different Police Departments. Not all Police Dept's have issues but clearly enough of them do for this to be a problem.

You sound like someone who doubts there's actually a problem which IMO is the reason this has been going on decades. The problem stems from the fact that AA's are a minority and MOST Americans in the majority have no frame of reference because they don't live or work in AA Communities. Also an AA has a different lived experience, which is the entire point of bringing this to the attention of the rest of America.



It would be very hard to adopt a core set of principals if they way states/cities train their officers can differ easily from another department. This is we ought to be concerned about these issues on the city level and go about it from there. However, that dosen't mean that the president and congress shouldn't be an active presence in this issue by calling meetings with police department chiefs etc...but first, we need to establish that it is a problem in the city at hand.

The bolded point troubles me. I do believe that this problem exists in police departments and that major steps should be taken to correct it, but just because you disagree with my approach to the issue does give you any right to make assumptions like that, espeically since you know me personally.

Secondly, what you stated in your second paragraph has dangerous implications: That because most Americans don't live in African American communities, they don't understand anything about whats going on and thus as a result if they take a side contrary to that of an African American living in those neighborhoods, they are wrong?

The Future is Bright!
nixluva
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USA
10/7/2017  4:17 PM
TPercy wrote:
We don't know that for sure the number of cops not being held accountable is too high.

I agree with you that police brutality is just one layer and the criminal justice system definitely needs reform. However, these aren't the reasons that KAP and co are protesting during the anthem. He believes that America stands for racism and that it oppressed people of color. There are issues that me and countless other people on this board need to be addressed but we can't just claim that America as a whole is responsible.

This is why I hate the need for a narrative in this country from both sides. It diverts us from the concept that truly matters: justice.

I know one thing for sure! If not for Protest and highlighting these issues of Race in America there would be no action taken to resolve these problems. The History of the country on Race proves this beyond all doubt?

The fight for Justice and equality that has been waged by AA's for hundreds of years in this country is testament to the existence of Racial Inequality and Injustice. I find your take troubling but not surprising given the response of many Americans to the protests. This isn't new and Minorities have had to fight this apathy many times over the decades in this country.

TPercy
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Member: #5748

10/7/2017  4:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2017  4:21 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

You don't seem to realize that there have been other Police Departments with the same issues!!! It's clear that your frame of view is a BIG part of the problem in this country and always has been. Until MLK and other Civil Rights Activists protested and PROVED just how Racist and Violent things were MOST Americans didn't think there was a problem cuz it didn't impact their lives.

Could you point to me where they are? Also, if one police department has a problem,does that mean the same will be true for another departments? America is a unique country with different states, different cities and different people. We can't establish a uniform narrative based on what happens in those cities. Rather, we can pursue action to target the problems in those cities alone and then move from there. If you keep pushing this uniform narrative about all police departments in the US, you will never see progress as long as someone posts a video of a police officer showing unnecessary force.If we want justice, we point to that instance of injustice and fight it together. The need to push a narrative is only going to keep dividing this country and we wont ever see anything done

2017 is nothing like it was in the 1960s. Back then, there were so many laws especially in housing and jobs that directly attacked African Americans. To suggest that Kap or any of the other kneelers are anything like MLK is insulting to the civil rights leaders and damning of any progress this country has made.

The Future is Bright!
TPercy
Posts: 24475
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Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  4:26 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.
The Future is Bright!
TPercy
Posts: 24475
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  4:31 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
We don't know that for sure the number of cops not being held accountable is too high.

I agree with you that police brutality is just one layer and the criminal justice system definitely needs reform. However, these aren't the reasons that KAP and co are protesting during the anthem. He believes that America stands for racism and that it oppressed people of color. There are issues that me and countless other people on this board need to be addressed but we can't just claim that America as a whole is responsible.

This is why I hate the need for a narrative in this country from both sides. It diverts us from the concept that truly matters: justice.

I know one thing for sure! If not for Protest and highlighting these issues of Race in America there would be no action taken to resolve these problems. The History of the country on Race proves this beyond all doubt?

The fight for Justice and equality that has been waged by AA's for hundreds of years in this country is testament to the existence of Racial Inequality and Injustice. I find your take troubling but not surprising given the response of many Americans to the protests. This isn't new and Minorities have had to fight this apathy many times over the decades in this country.

I'm not saying these athletes should take no action. I'm trying to tell you that the reasons that KAP is protesting the flag are counterproductive. If he said something along the lines that the police in my city are doing a terrible job then then that would make a little more sense although I would still think kneeling during the anthem in and of itself is ineffective and sends a wrong message.

The Future is Bright!
nixluva
Posts: 54674
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USA
10/7/2017  4:31 PM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

I don't think anyone is suggesting All or even Most police are bad or Racist. The problem is that there is a problem with how Police are trained and often many policies that create the circumstances for abuse and unfortunately killings.

IF you live in a community or City that has historically over policed and been over aggressive in tactics that's a systemic problem.

Investigators have found abuse in Police Departments
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6787804

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/us/justice-dept-inquiry-finds-abuses-by-cleveland-police.html?referer=https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVyFJEdlZyZsAuBtx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1507426761/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2014%2f12%2f05%2fus%2fjustice-dept-inquiry-finds-abuses-by-cleveland-police.html/RK=1/RS=XAd9T8Btr2RKBbSlaX9OwyYU38c-

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/08/09/489372162/justice-department-to-issue-critical-report-on-baltimore-police-department

Nix I agree with you on this but I believe that this is an issue that must be tackled on the state level. All states are inherently different and as such how they execute their police powers are going to be different as well. There is no single national curriculum for police training; instead, the training requirements and protocol is different. The cops in Baltimore and Cleveland as you cited have problems with their use of force, that doesn't mean that same problem is the same in other states, which kind of ties into part of issues with protesting police brutality on a national level because it assumes that this is a problem that must be tackled centrally instead of encouraging states and in particular cities to gather data and find a way of tackling it from there.

Well I think perhaps you may be misunderstanding the purpose of the National movement. Best practices are best practices and teaching proper engagement with citizens will be generally applicable no matter where you are. Of course you can't have a Boilerplate solution that fits all the various Cities and Towns but the problem is that FAR TOO MANY Police Departments fail entirely to even recognize they have a problem.

We're talking about GROSS abuse across multiple cities over decades. Until the protests pretty much forced the DOJ to go in and investigate NO ONE was looking to change or improve anything. In fact these Police Departments denied there was even a problem.

You are proposing that cities should all adopt a uniform practice and I don't think that is a reasonable goal because as I stated previously different states have different issues, not to mention whst you are asking for would be unconstitutional if I interpreted what you said correctly.

What multiple cities are we talking about here? Was there a city by city study done across the nation that I'm unaware of? Not to mention I'm fairly certain the investigation into the Baltimore PD happened before Kap started protesting

I think there's a basic set of practices that can form the core of a program that can then be tailored to the different Police Departments. Not all Police Dept's have issues but clearly enough of them do for this to be a problem.

You sound like someone who doubts there's actually a problem which IMO is the reason this has been going on decades. The problem stems from the fact that AA's are a minority and MOST Americans in the majority have no frame of reference because they don't live or work in AA Communities. Also an AA has a different lived experience, which is the entire point of bringing this to the attention of the rest of America.



It would be very hard to adopt a core set of principals if they way states/cities train their officers can differ easily from another department. This is we ought to be concerned about these issues on the city level and go about it from there. However, that dosen't mean that the president and congress shouldn't be an active presence in this issue by calling meetings with police department chiefs etc...but first, we need to establish that it is a problem in the city at hand.

The bolded point troubles me. I do believe that this problem exists in police departments and that major steps should be taken to correct it, but just because you disagree with my approach to the issue does give you any right to make assumptions like that, espeically since you know me personally.

Secondly, what you stated in your second paragraph has dangerous implications: That because most Americans don't live in African American communities, they don't understand anything about whats going on and thus as a result if they take a side contrary to that of an African American living in those neighborhoods, they are wrong?

The saying "Walk A Mile In Another Man's Shoes" is profound when it comes to being a non White Minority in this country. IMO it's extremely difficult to make a White American understand a lifetime of navigating life as a minority person of color. They're are completely different lived experiences and MOST White Americans don't live in Majority Minority communities. IMO that makes it very hard to appreciate the challenges Minorities face.

Why do you think as a nation we've struggled with Racial issues for so long and still have significant disparities? Far too many White Americans fail to see a problem and thus nothing gets done. That's been the history in this country. Only after long struggle often necessitating the use of the Federal Government has change been accomplished.

TPercy
Posts: 24475
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  4:38 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

I don't think anyone is suggesting All or even Most police are bad or Racist. The problem is that there is a problem with how Police are trained and often many policies that create the circumstances for abuse and unfortunately killings.

IF you live in a community or City that has historically over policed and been over aggressive in tactics that's a systemic problem.

Investigators have found abuse in Police Departments
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6787804

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/us/justice-dept-inquiry-finds-abuses-by-cleveland-police.html?referer=https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVyFJEdlZyZsAuBtx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1507426761/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2014%2f12%2f05%2fus%2fjustice-dept-inquiry-finds-abuses-by-cleveland-police.html/RK=1/RS=XAd9T8Btr2RKBbSlaX9OwyYU38c-

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/08/09/489372162/justice-department-to-issue-critical-report-on-baltimore-police-department

Nix I agree with you on this but I believe that this is an issue that must be tackled on the state level. All states are inherently different and as such how they execute their police powers are going to be different as well. There is no single national curriculum for police training; instead, the training requirements and protocol is different. The cops in Baltimore and Cleveland as you cited have problems with their use of force, that doesn't mean that same problem is the same in other states, which kind of ties into part of issues with protesting police brutality on a national level because it assumes that this is a problem that must be tackled centrally instead of encouraging states and in particular cities to gather data and find a way of tackling it from there.

Well I think perhaps you may be misunderstanding the purpose of the National movement. Best practices are best practices and teaching proper engagement with citizens will be generally applicable no matter where you are. Of course you can't have a Boilerplate solution that fits all the various Cities and Towns but the problem is that FAR TOO MANY Police Departments fail entirely to even recognize they have a problem.

We're talking about GROSS abuse across multiple cities over decades. Until the protests pretty much forced the DOJ to go in and investigate NO ONE was looking to change or improve anything. In fact these Police Departments denied there was even a problem.

You are proposing that cities should all adopt a uniform practice and I don't think that is a reasonable goal because as I stated previously different states have different issues, not to mention whst you are asking for would be unconstitutional if I interpreted what you said correctly.

What multiple cities are we talking about here? Was there a city by city study done across the nation that I'm unaware of? Not to mention I'm fairly certain the investigation into the Baltimore PD happened before Kap started protesting

I think there's a basic set of practices that can form the core of a program that can then be tailored to the different Police Departments. Not all Police Dept's have issues but clearly enough of them do for this to be a problem.

You sound like someone who doubts there's actually a problem which IMO is the reason this has been going on decades. The problem stems from the fact that AA's are a minority and MOST Americans in the majority have no frame of reference because they don't live or work in AA Communities. Also an AA has a different lived experience, which is the entire point of bringing this to the attention of the rest of America.



It would be very hard to adopt a core set of principals if they way states/cities train their officers can differ easily from another department. This is we ought to be concerned about these issues on the city level and go about it from there. However, that dosen't mean that the president and congress shouldn't be an active presence in this issue by calling meetings with police department chiefs etc...but first, we need to establish that it is a problem in the city at hand.

The bolded point troubles me. I do believe that this problem exists in police departments and that major steps should be taken to correct it, but just because you disagree with my approach to the issue does give you any right to make assumptions like that, espeically since you know me personally.

Secondly, what you stated in your second paragraph has dangerous implications: That because most Americans don't live in African American communities, they don't understand anything about whats going on and thus as a result if they take a side contrary to that of an African American living in those neighborhoods, they are wrong?

The saying "Walk A Mile In Another Man's Shoes" is profound when it comes to being a non White Minority in this country. IMO it's extremely difficult to make a White American understand a lifetime of navigating life as a minority person of color. They're are completely different lived experiences and MOST White Americans don't live in Majority Minority communities. IMO that makes it very hard to appreciate the challenges Minorities face.

Why do you think as a nation we've struggled with Racial issues for so long and still have significant disparities? Far too many White Americans fail to see a problem and thus nothing gets done. That's been the history in this country. Only after long struggle often necessitating the use of the Federal Government has change been accomplished.


In US history, the issues of oppression existed as a result of the laws by the federal and state governments. These laws allowed for voting, housing, and job discrimination. They allowed segregation on busses and schools. Only when the government(s) corrected its horrible practices did these issues start to decline.
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newyorknewyork
Posts: 26895
Alba Posts: 1
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Member: #541
10/7/2017  4:46 PM
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.

If the one instance you can recall is Castillo then that is a problem in itself.

The shooting spree example is basically saying how ratio and % numbers don't hold much weight when it comes to people losing their lives. One person losing their life unjustly is worthy of a protest.

There have been more than one.

There is also 2 sides to this. Can you provide evidence that officers are held accountable for the killing of unarmed men at a justifiable rate? There have been a lot of high profile cases with a lot of eyes on the judgement which see officers not exonerated. This is the data the public is going to go by. And have not seen much data presented to show the opposite.


I am on my phone. I will provide more cases than Castillo for you when I get to my notebook.

TPercy
Posts: 24475
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
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10/7/2017  4:51 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.

If the one instance you can recall is Castillo then that is a problem in itself.

The shooting spree example is basically saying how ratio and % numbers don't hold much weight when it comes to people losing their lives. One person losing their life unjustly is worthy of a protest.

There have been more than one.

There is also 2 sides to this. Can you provide evidence that officers are held accountable for the killing of unarmed men at a justifiable rate? There have been a lot of high profile cases with a lot of eyes on the judgement which see officers not exonerated. This is the data the public is going to go by. And have not seen much data presented to show the opposite.


I am on my phone. I will provide more cases than Castillo for you when I get to my notebook.

You are right, if one man is killed by a cop unjustly and nothing is done about it, it is worthy of protest. Its when you start making farfetched generalizations that a problem comes up.

You are also right that there are two sides to this. That's why I am not making any generalization about the accountability of cops either and why I judge these issues on a case by case basis instead of pushing a single narrative.

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nixluva
Posts: 54674
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
10/7/2017  4:55 PM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

You don't seem to realize that there have been other Police Departments with the same issues!!! It's clear that your frame of view is a BIG part of the problem in this country and always has been. Until MLK and other Civil Rights Activists protested and PROVED just how Racist and Violent things were MOST Americans didn't think there was a problem cuz it didn't impact their lives.

Could you point to me where they are? Also, if one police department has a problem,does that mean the same will be true for another departments? America is a unique country with different states, different cities and different people. We can't establish a uniform narrative based on what happens in those cities. Rather, we can pursue action to target the problems in those cities alone and then move from there. If you keep pushing this uniform narrative about all police departments in the US, you will never see progress as long as someone posts a video of a police officer showing unnecessary force.If we want justice, we point to that instance of injustice and fight it together. The need to push a narrative is only going to keep dividing this country and we wont ever see anything done

2017 is nothing like it was in the 1960s. Back then, there were so many laws especially in housing and jobs that directly attacked African Americans. To suggest that Kap or any of the other kneelers are anything like MLK is insulting to the civil rights leaders and damning of any progress this country has made.

The statistics on this are only partial since there is no comprehensive reporting across all police departments done by the Federal Govt. However there are efforts being made to collect this data now since the problem has become more prominently reported on.

This is a very good site to give at least some idea of the scope of the problem. They even have some evidence of Best Practices achieving better results:

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

newyorknewyork
Posts: 26895
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
10/7/2017  5:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/7/2017  5:20 PM
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.

If the one instance you can recall is Castillo then that is a problem in itself.

The shooting spree example is basically saying how ratio and % numbers don't hold much weight when it comes to people losing their lives. One person losing their life unjustly is worthy of a protest.

There have been more than one.

There is also 2 sides to this. Can you provide evidence that officers are held accountable for the killing of unarmed men at a justifiable rate? There have been a lot of high profile cases with a lot of eyes on the judgement which see officers not exonerated. This is the data the public is going to go by. And have not seen much data presented to show the opposite.


I am on my phone. I will provide more cases than Castillo for you when I get to my notebook.

You are right, if one man is killed by a cop unjustly and nothing is done about it, it is worthy of protest. Its when you start making farfetched generalizations that a problem comes up.

You are also right that there are two sides to this. That's why I am not making any generalization about the accountability of cops either and why I judge these issues on a case by case basis instead of pushing a single narrative.

First you would have have followed more than one case. Second the systematic racism isnt just about unarmed black men getting killed. You are the one looking to boil it down to just that. The profiling which leads to many more unessesary interactions which may escalate into an unamred man getting killed is also apart of that but also just another layer. As is the fact that the officers may not be held accountable for it another layer. But even those are just pieces of the whole issue of systematic racism.

Also to be more accurate if the target is systematic racism for you argument. Then you would have to use police forces who cover a highly poplulated AA areas. Which lowers the number of overall officers you want to compare. Cops dealing with mostly white civilians can't be attributed to the number of officers when speaking about systematic racism,

If your talking about police brutality in general then that's different.

TPercy
Posts: 24475
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  5:34 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

You don't seem to realize that there have been other Police Departments with the same issues!!! It's clear that your frame of view is a BIG part of the problem in this country and always has been. Until MLK and other Civil Rights Activists protested and PROVED just how Racist and Violent things were MOST Americans didn't think there was a problem cuz it didn't impact their lives.

Could you point to me where they are? Also, if one police department has a problem,does that mean the same will be true for another departments? America is a unique country with different states, different cities and different people. We can't establish a uniform narrative based on what happens in those cities. Rather, we can pursue action to target the problems in those cities alone and then move from there. If you keep pushing this uniform narrative about all police departments in the US, you will never see progress as long as someone posts a video of a police officer showing unnecessary force.If we want justice, we point to that instance of injustice and fight it together. The need to push a narrative is only going to keep dividing this country and we wont ever see anything done

2017 is nothing like it was in the 1960s. Back then, there were so many laws especially in housing and jobs that directly attacked African Americans. To suggest that Kap or any of the other kneelers are anything like MLK is insulting to the civil rights leaders and damning of any progress this country has made.

The statistics on this are only partial since there is no comprehensive reporting across all police departments done by the Federal Govt. However there are efforts being made to collect this data now since the problem has become more prominently reported on.

This is a very good site to give at least some idea of the scope of the problem. They even have some evidence of Best Practices achieving better results:

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/


While I do appreciate you sharing the site with me, it dosen't actually give data about police abuses outside the scope of police killings. Whats more is that we can clearly see how vastly police departments differ from each other in that regard. If it was national problem, then all police departments listed there would have constant stats.

Nevertheless I like this site and I think the president should he ever pull his head out of his ass would do well to enforce the law in place that forces cities to provide information about their police departments.

The Future is Bright!
TPercy
Posts: 24475
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

10/7/2017  5:44 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.

If the one instance you can recall is Castillo then that is a problem in itself.

The shooting spree example is basically saying how ratio and % numbers don't hold much weight when it comes to people losing their lives. One person losing their life unjustly is worthy of a protest.

There have been more than one.

There is also 2 sides to this. Can you provide evidence that officers are held accountable for the killing of unarmed men at a justifiable rate? There have been a lot of high profile cases with a lot of eyes on the judgement which see officers not exonerated. This is the data the public is going to go by. And have not seen much data presented to show the opposite.


I am on my phone. I will provide more cases than Castillo for you when I get to my notebook.

You are right, if one man is killed by a cop unjustly and nothing is done about it, it is worthy of protest. Its when you start making farfetched generalizations that a problem comes up.

You are also right that there are two sides to this. That's why I am not making any generalization about the accountability of cops either and why I judge these issues on a case by case basis instead of pushing a single narrative.

First you would have have followed more than one case. Second the systematic racism isnt just about unarmed black men getting killed. You are the one looking to boil it down to just that. The profiling which leads to many more unessesary interactions which may escalate into an unamred man getting killed is also apart of that but also just another layer. As is the fact that the officers may not be held accountable for it another layer. But even those are just pieces of the whole issue of systematic racism.

Also to be more accurate if the target is systematic racism for you argument. Then you would have to use police forces who cover a highly poplulated AA areas. Which lowers the number of overall officers you want to compare. Cops dealing with mostly white civilians can't be attributed to the number of officers when speaking about systematic racism,

If your talking about police brutality in general then that's different.


I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex
The Future is Bright!
nixluva
Posts: 54674
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
10/7/2017  7:28 PM
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
TPercy wrote:No disrespect taken. You guys refuted my points well but I guess what I am trying to say now is that I think we need more data. I find all these videos on social media to be very useless because it is very easy to sway someone emotionally with anecdotes. Seriously, even if we added up all the videos of police shootings and even brutality for that matter, you still wouldn't have enough to taint 900,000 officers(or thereabouts) as systematically racist or even forceful for that matter.

A scientist shouldn't say anecdotes are useless. They can captivate audiences who can then be shown data. They're often a useful starting point. I don't think the purpose of this was to taint 900,000 officers. Can one write about the seriousness of medical errors (3rd leading cause of death in the US now) without tainting the 1 million physicians in the US? If you can tolerate this world's unavoidable nuances (doctors save many lives but there still is serious room for improvement in their practices), then I don't see why not.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I meant that anecdotes by themselves are useless. Anecdotes should and must be brought up as much as possible but people shouldn't derive their opinions solely off of anecdotes. It's kind of like how we analyze basketball. Me and you never just base our opinions off the the eye test alone. We look at the data to see if it corroborated why we are saying and then make our opinions


OK, I would agree with this.

Its not just the number of Africans Americans being shot by police. Its also the how, its also the why. Its also when these things aren't justified there has been no accountablitlity. If rogue cops made poor decisions yet were held accountable for their actions that would limit the outrage. Then there is the excuses and finger pointing. For example 900,000 other officers should be tainted due to the actions of the bad apples. But yet African Americans get an enormous amount of generalizations due to the actions of few in order to justify that stance.

And policd brutality is just one layer. Its also the unjust justice system. There is so much evidence available to justify the outrage. To not understand is to either not care to know or care about the result.


How do you know for a fact that bad caps are routinely not being held accountable for their actions?

I just posted articles showing the DOJ found many Police Departments guilty of abuse so there's AMPLE PROOF that cops have been getting away with abuse. If you simply do a Google Search you would find all the info you need.

Ferguson
Baltimore
Cleveland


I don't think that reports in these cities constitutes "many police departments" nor are they representative of the thousands of city wide PD's

There have been to many high profile cases followed though which officers werent held accountable. Pretty much almost all of them actually.

We are also talking about people getting shot and killed here. Children losing their father, parents losing their child. I could have been a humanitarian my whole life. Donating to charities and helping ppl. If one day I decid3d to go on a mass shooting spree. I cant rely on my past years of charitable work to cover the lives I've taken away. I cant claim in court that for 80% of my life I was a great guy. As the lives ones of the people I killed have to live without their loved one for the rest of their lives.


The one instance I remember is Philando Castile, I can't recall any others unless you want to point me in the direction of them. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say with your mass shooting spree example.

If the one instance you can recall is Castillo then that is a problem in itself.

The shooting spree example is basically saying how ratio and % numbers don't hold much weight when it comes to people losing their lives. One person losing their life unjustly is worthy of a protest.

There have been more than one.

There is also 2 sides to this. Can you provide evidence that officers are held accountable for the killing of unarmed men at a justifiable rate? There have been a lot of high profile cases with a lot of eyes on the judgement which see officers not exonerated. This is the data the public is going to go by. And have not seen much data presented to show the opposite.


I am on my phone. I will provide more cases than Castillo for you when I get to my notebook.

You are right, if one man is killed by a cop unjustly and nothing is done about it, it is worthy of protest. Its when you start making farfetched generalizations that a problem comes up.

You are also right that there are two sides to this. That's why I am not making any generalization about the accountability of cops either and why I judge these issues on a case by case basis instead of pushing a single narrative.

First you would have have followed more than one case. Second the systematic racism isnt just about unarmed black men getting killed. You are the one looking to boil it down to just that. The profiling which leads to many more unessesary interactions which may escalate into an unamred man getting killed is also apart of that but also just another layer. As is the fact that the officers may not be held accountable for it another layer. But even those are just pieces of the whole issue of systematic racism.

Also to be more accurate if the target is systematic racism for you argument. Then you would have to use police forces who cover a highly poplulated AA areas. Which lowers the number of overall officers you want to compare. Cops dealing with mostly white civilians can't be attributed to the number of officers when speaking about systematic racism,

If your talking about police brutality in general then that's different.


I'm not trying to boil down systematic racism into one issue. My argument is that you(as in KAP) can't claim that a country is systematically racist because it has certain issues that are directly oppressive to black people unless we want to brand all countries as systematically racist for that matter. Racism is a complex issue in a complex country. Making a broad generalization is only going to make it more complex

OK let's just stop with the pretense here. This country was established with Racism at its core! Can we not pretend that there aren't deeply entrenched problems with race? Let's not insult everyone's intelligence here.

Even when there is no individual racist intent the outcomes are often racially disparate. The problem is that there has been such a long and complex set of built in racist practices that it's on automatic. It no longer required active participation, although there is at least some amount of actual individual racism.

Change requires intentional action or else the problems persist. The racist inequality was built in intentionally over decades so it's not a simple fix. The reason this is STILL an issue is precisely because the Majority has never seriously addressed the problem. Rather it's been dragged along slowly, kicking and screaming all these decades. Often the bare minimum has been done. That too is no accident.

Even now there are those in the Republican Party who play with Racist Dog Whistles because it falls to their benefit.

OT: Why They Take A Knee

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