you have said yourself that you think the Knicks have a legitimate shot to win the Atlantic division next year...that makes them a #3 seed in the East, & if they win the 1st round of the playoffs, they advance about as far as a team like Houston might in the West...

do i think the Knicks are among the elite in the league? of course not...that's a pretty silly question...but i think there's a legitimate chance that the Knicks & Rockets could be picking at about the same spot in the 1st round in the next draft, give or take 3 or 4 spots...is there that much of a marked difference between a #17-18 pick & a #20-21 pick? or are you assuming that the Rockets will make it to the Western Conference Finals or more next year?

that could happen, sure...but there are alot of tough teams out West that have just as much chance of advancing further than the Rockets do...i don't think they are head & shoulders above the Lakers, T-Wolves, Mavericks, Spurs, Nuggets or even the Jazz...& the Suns, Blazers, Hornets could very well contend w/them as well...so when you say the Rockets are a clearly better team, you're right, but there's a good chance they could be picking at the same spot the Knicks do because they are simply in a better conference & have to play tougher teams...unless you think that Kurt Thomas puts them over the edge, i don't get where you think the Rockets will be picking in the late 20's when there are so many other great teams out West that they have to contend with.

I'm not sure when Kurt Thomas became this good, maybe it's just a difference of opinion in how good he is.

Last year in 31 minutes, KT averaged 11 points, 8 rebounds, and shot 47% from the field and 84% fromt he line.

Last year in 28 minuutes, Mo averaged 11 points, 5 rebounds, shot 48% from the field and 74% from the line.

KT is also a better defender. KT turns 33 in February, while Mo Taylor turns 28 in October.

This is the point I'm trying to make: While KT is a better overall player, he is 33. Trading for a player just as effective offensively and who is 5 years younger, and you get a draft pick int he mid-20s, which usually equates to a good role player or possibly a starter, makes sense.

You're response is KT is light-years above Mo Taylor and anything not picked in the lottery doesn't make the NBA. I find that ludicrous. I think KT is good, not that good, and he's 33. He has a limited offensive game, scoring most of his points off a pick and roll from Marbury. Mo Taylor can do this also, as he has a good mid-range game, and he also can attack the basket facing it and score with his back to the basket. I think it'd be better to add a big man who can score and who's used to playing 27 minutes a game (how will KT take a diminished playing role if Sweetney is starting).

So let's say Sweetney plays well enough and is starting. You don't want to deal KT, who is sitting on the bench and due to make:
as a 34 year old: $6.62 million
as a 35 year old: $7.35 million
as a 36 year old: $8.09 million

Not only is Taylor cheaper, younger, and more offensively fluid, you're getting a first round pick. The Rockets like this move becuase they pay virtually nothing for Norris (1st year they don't pay much b/c of the Knicks giving $3 million, the 2nd year they might've found a starting PG and he can be dealt as he's an expiring contract) and they need a point guard as their depth chart right now is only Charlie Ward, and KT fits their offense better. He's a much better defender, and he can benefit from Yao's great passing by catching and shooting shots far from the basket while taking tough defensive assignments.

I don't know what your thing is about late first rounders, I went a few years back to show you that good players are available, you simply refuted this, so I'll do it again.

Here's what I wrote:
"Looking back at the 2002 draft, from picks 20-29, here were the players:
Kareem Rush, Qyntel Woods, Casey Jacobsen, Tayshaun Prince, Nenad Kristic, Frank Williams, John Salmons, Chris Jeffries, and Dan Dickau. Only Jeffries and Dickau have been huge disappointments, and guys like Dan Gadzuric, Flip Murray, and Carlos Boozer were taken early round 2.

In 2001, 20-20 were:
Brendan Haywood, Joe Forte, Jeryl Sasser, Brandon Armstrong, Raul Lopez, Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Jamaal Tinsley, and Tony Parker, and early 2nd round picks were Gilbert Arenas, Memo Okur, and Earl Watson."

In 2002, I count 10 players available at pick 20 who made it: Rush, Woods, Jacobsen, Prince, Kristic is coming oer this year, Williams, Salmons, Gadzuric, Murray, and Boozer.

In 2001, I count 9 who made it: Haywood, Lopez, Wallace, Dalembert, Tinsley, Parker, Arenas, Okur, and Watson. Of those 9, Haywood, Dalembert, Wallace, Tinsley, Parker, Arenas, and Okur will start, and Watson has the talent to start.

That is what I mean. I think it benefits the Knicks to have two first round picks when Isiah is known for having a keen eye for talent. The Knicks need a Center, and with 2 draft picks I see it more reasonable.

Possible Center Selections:

Kosta Perovic, LaMarcus Alridge, Tiago Splitter, Channing Frye, Fran Vasquez, Andray Blatche, Ronny Turiaf, Torin Francis, and Luke Schenser.

Two first rounders and a 2nd rounder would mean that they'd have a nice chance to obtain a center, and wouldn't have to rely on taking back tens of millions in contracts to get a mediocre one for expiring contracts.

Exactly, at this point its a difference of opinion.

I feel acquiring a 27-year old Mo Taylor and a first rounder is better than having an aging KT on your bench making 8 million bones a year.

isn't KT basically a role player afterall? why not take the gamble to get something that can turn out to be more? that's my take anyway...don't want to beat this into the ground anymore than it needs to be...i think we should be doing whatever it takes to acquire more tradeable assets, & a 1st round pick would give us just that...Mo Taylor isn't all that bad of an asset either at his age.

The deal that works under the trade checker and one that both teams would consinder is:

Kurt Thomas & Shandon Anderson
for
Mo Taylor & Clarence Weatherspoon


I have no desire to get Spoon back but he has 1 less year remaining on his contract than Shandon, which will make him a valuable trading asset. We also free up the glut at the 2 & 3 spots.
Maybe we can get a draft pick out of the deal as well.

I'll offer my thoughts on some players who didn't receive "generous" stars from you. (BTW, why do players get asterisks for being more than role players?? You said people in the 20s don't usually get offered 2nd NBA contracts. If I can have a solid role playing C I'll take him, and he'll get exteneded beyond his rookie contract. You change your argument just so it works out well. Here are players who WILL get 2nd NBA contracts).

"Felipe Lopez...Nazy MOhammed" Mohammed started for the Knicks last year, and Lopez, had it not been for injuries, should've been a decent NBA player.

"Jeff Foster, Kenny Thomas, Devan George" Foster and Thomas will start for probably playoff teams and George has won 3 championships while playing a pivotal role for the Lakers.


"2000: Craig Claxton, Morris Peterson, DeShawn Stevenson, Jake Tsakalidis, Marc Madsen" Claxton, MoPete, Stevenson, and Tsakalidis have all been starters, and Madsen was a pivotal role player for the Lakers last year. You also conveniently left out Michael Redd, who went in the 2nd round.

"2001: Gerald Wallace, Jamaal Tinsley" will both start for teams this year. Tinsley has a career average of over 7 assists per game. This is also a year when Arenas, Okur, and Watson go in round 2, yet they don't get mentioned for some odd reason.

"2002: Qyntel Woods, Casey Jacobsen, Nenad Kristic, Frank Williams, John Salmons" Woods, Salmons, and Jacobsen should be on playoff teams this year, Frank Williams will get another NBA contract, and Kristic is going to be the starting C for the Nets this year.

I know you don't want to talk about 03, but Josh Howard was taken 29th, and Willie Green, a starter for the 76ers, went in the 2nd round. Delfino, Diaw, and Cook will all get 2nd NBA contracts.

So I don't think it's that awful of a gamble.

Throwing draft picks out the window Bonn, how do you feel about a 35 year old Kurt Thomas making $8 million a year and playing 20 minutes a game while backing up Sweetney? I'd rather get Taylor and let his contract expire a year earlier and just not retain or sign him for cheaper than KT. All of this and the potential to have two Centers drafted next year for very cheap.

[Edited by - bigsm00th on 08/31/2004 16:55:28]

I agree w/ ya Bigsmooth-- what's the criteria to being a good player/strong contributor?
Part of a player's success depends on being drafted by the right team with the right system.

One can only wonder how much of a future a player like Jameer Nelson has playing behind Steve Francis (it sounds like his upside in this scenario is that of a Moochie Norris!). Nelson might not have a chance to strut his stuff until this rookie contract is over--- and even then, by the time the contract is over GMs will long have forgotten about him.

How's this criteria:
Has averaged 24mpg+ in 2+ seasons in their careers for positions other than center.
For Centers, has managed 15mpg/4-6ppg, 4-6rpg more than twice.

Anything less than this, and we're really talking about dime-a-dozen type players.

Let's forget about 2nd rounders at this point--- these are players that have managed to surprise everyone. Out of 29 2nd rounders, you often see 15-20 guys who NEVER get signed, 3-5 players who manage NBA contracts several times in their careers but sit on the bench, 3-5 who become regular rotation players including 2-3 foreign players who shouldn't have been 2nd rounders in the first place, and 1-2 guys who become borderline all-stars/stars).

For example, Michael Redd (43!) is an odd exceptional 2nd rounder--- No less than 13 other swingmen were chosen ahead of him! (odd pedigree---> for such an excellent shooter in the NBA, he averaged only 65% from the ft line in college and his scoring/assist stats got worse every year!)
http://espn.go.com/nba/draft00/players/player_bio113.html

Let it be known that Michael Redd's production over the past 2 seasons has managed to surpass that of virtually every swingman chosen in that draft, including Miles (3), Miller (5), DerMarr (6), Jamal Crawford (8), Alexander (13), Turkoglu (16), D. Mason (17), Q-Rich (18), Mo Pete (21), Stephenson (23), Jaric (30), Postell (39), Carrawell (41). Knowing what they know now, GMs would make Redd a top-3 pick--> he's arguably the best player in the whole 2000 draft class!