Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Welpee wrote:

reub wrote:

Gudris wrote:Melo looks really unhappy and confused, start to feel sorry for him

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/912437672119062529

He's no longer the top dog, can't demand the ball, can't ignore the coach, can't undermine the system, can't berate his teammates, can't get management fired and now lives in Oklahoma. Poor guy!

I'm glad we can move on from Melo too, but how much longer are the Melo haters going to keep this up? If you don't like his game, fine. But this exaggeration about all the "bad" he did while he was here is ridiculous and totally unfair.

I don’t think anyone can hate melo the person dude is a great guy off the court. But fans have every right to hate on melo the player, nobody wants him injured, or should feel sorry for him. I’m sure it burns him on the inside that he became the biggest star looser in the nba, he failed to elevate his teammates games with his play. He’ll never be a leader like Jordan,Kobe,O’Neal, lebron, magic, bird, Ewing.

Melo is a second or third tier star, an’t no shame he’s just not as good.

Hating on him because he's not among the greatest of all time or the greatest Knick of all-time? Maybe if we expected Melo to be Kobe that on us and not him? All of us can only be who we are. I agree, in hindsight Melo is no better than the #2 guy on a top flight team yet he was put in the position of being the top dog. Would Kevin McHale be who he is if he had to be the top dog in Boston instead of Bird?

Again, I'm happy Melo is gone and both parties can move on because it wasn't working here. But I think folks should really reexamine why they're exercising their "right" to hate on Melo and ask is it really fair.

how about simply hating on him for not playing defense, holding the ball and stinking in the playoffs. Are those fair reasons to be happy to move on from this superstar? I mean I cant remember a player whos had a such a blind group of devout followers who make excuses for every one of his shortcomings and failures. It gets old and Im happy to move on from it. Like we got a great 3/4 of a season from Amare we got a great season from Melo and it was fun. The rest of it was poor play on bad teams. Yea... most of Melo's teams here sucked. Thats not on him. In 7 years here he proved his reputation for apathetic defense, holding the ball and shooting his team out of the playoffs every year.

Its a big shrug.

That being said I am feeling better and better about the trade. I like the trio of Willy/KP/Kanter up front to grow and evaluate. Maybe one gets traded. Maybe Kanter or Willy become a great bench option. Kanter certainly was last year. McBuckets could also be a useful player. He's not a good defender but he tries. He reminds me of Allan Houston in that regard. He's got a sweet stroke, and we have an offensive coach. I think we did OK overall. Would have been nice to get a young defensive 3, like the Portland kid but we did OK. Now its up the FO and coaches to get these guys involved.

I do like our depth and I think that will challenge the team to be better. Fighting for minutes isnt a bad thing.

So I assume you hated on STAT too?

I'm also warming up to the trade the more I hear from and learn about Kanter. Look, I'm totally on board with supporting Melo being moved. I just don't get how he deserves so much hating. He didn't come here promising championships. If people expected him to be "Lebron-lite" that's our fault. Melo doesn't elevate teams but when he had a solid team around him he produced in both Denver and here. I'm not asking people to have a love-fest with Melo, just asking people to be fair.

Amare... a GREAT 3/4 of a season. He was so good. Shockingly the Knicks gave a guy with bad knees a huge contract. Guess what? He had bad knees. Terrible move.

Hate on STAT? Am I hating on Melo? I have never done anything but call Melo for what I see. That included showing him with praise during that 54 win season. Guys like DK and TFK would go nuts on me because I went from calling out for quoting on MDA to saying he was playing like one of the best in the NBA. He was. Knicks were the #2 seed in the conference. Melo was amazing that year. Not so much other years. Thats hate? Boy that sure feels like me calling it like I see it. Im a Knick fan. I like it when the team wins. When they do I harp on the guys playing well. When they stink I harp on guys who stink. Maybe Im not harping enough on Bargs and thats ruining my JRod rating and has the Hofstra police on my case. Ill work hard to point out how bad Bargs was for us

It's funny, because in my addled recollection of this site, you were always one of the more level headed when it came to dealing with the deranged MeloHate posters (Marbury was better! Remember the Mardy! I'd rather have Gallo back! Trade Melo straight up for Eddy Curry! I WANT MY JEREMY BACK!!!) Even when Melo was declining as we drifted into the Phil regime and we became the Westchester Knicks...

As far as I can see, it's only been the past season or so that your tone has changed. And it almost directly co-incided with the "disappearance" of the aforementioned tkf, dk7twtf, and people like the more rabid Darkside of ChuckBuck and Splat. Actually, I remember +1-ing so many of your posts back then that I started to feel very uncomfortably like a groupie. I once went so cough cough rhymes with Romo that I actually asked martin what the hell happened to you because I didn't notice you posting at all. Maybe you just felt the need to fill the void. I think there's meds for that, but the side effects probably aren't worth it. You might have ended up out-John Sterling me on this site. Well, probably not.

I guess if I actually cared enough and had any ambition at all, I could search back and find all those not quite Homer, but absolutely pro-Melo posts that weren't all about the 54 win season.

Wow, I have my own rating system? Who knew! (Or cares?)

and what has happened in that year? Did Melo's scoring eff% drop? Did all his defensive metrics go from average to abysmal? See that correlation?

Exactly. What's more suprising is people's who don't adjust their views even after Melo declines so much on both ends.

martin wrote:Eny, I was wrong, apparently there is a trade exception:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/913065725878603777

Welpee wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:Eny, I was wrong, apparently there is a trade exception:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/913065725878603777

Didn't we also save a few million in contract obligations too?

jrodmc wrote:And no matter what you continue to bark about, offensively or defensively, he was still the best player on the team. It's about wins and losses my friends, not just emotional attachment.

I agree. Given the Knicks win-loss record over the last four years with Melo as the best player, and any reasonably expected win-loss record this year, it was simply time to move on.

Knickoftime wrote:

jrodmc wrote:And no matter what you continue to bark about, offensively or defensively, he was still the best player on the team. It's about wins and losses my friends, not just emotional attachment.

I agree. Given the Knicks win-loss record over the last four years with Melo as the best player, and any reasonably expected win-loss record this year, it was simply time to move on.

I'll try context with you one more time, my spiny little friend. What was the number of wins the Knicks managed without Melo on the floor? Let me know. It's been discussed ad nauseum, but I'm sure you'll come up with some ingenious little flop argument to explain how not winning more games is on Melo, and not the fact that the team sucks. So when your team sucks, the best thing to do is get rid of the one reason you won any games. Got it.

No wait, better yet, skip the research and spend some more time on onion dip and loopholes in the CBA that nobody will give a sheehit about.

jrodmc wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

jrodmc wrote:And no matter what you continue to bark about, offensively or defensively, he was still the best player on the team. It's about wins and losses my friends, not just emotional attachment.

I agree. Given the Knicks win-loss record over the last four years with Melo as the best player, and any reasonably expected win-loss record this year, it was simply time to move on.

I'll try context with you one more time, my spiny little friend. What was the number of wins the Knicks managed without Melo on the floor? Let me know. It's been discussed ad nauseum, but I'm sure you'll come up with some ingenious little flop argument to explain how not winning more games is on Melo, and not the fact that the team sucks. So when your team sucks, the best thing to do is get rid of the one reason you won any games. Got it.

No wait, better yet, skip the research and spend some more time on onion dip and loopholes in the CBA that nobody will give a sheehit about.

Kind of a skewed number when you factor in he makes more than a 1/4 of the salary cap. Would the Knicks have won more games if they had that 25 million. True test will be this year. I think the Knicks win more games this year without him. Melo was never worth the trouble for this franchise. His greed gutted the franchise of every asset they had. Did we build propelry around him? No but its mostly his fault. He removed any chance of upgrading the roster because he left the cupboard bare

Knickoftime wrote:

jrodmc wrote:What was the number of wins the Knicks managed without Melo on the floor? Let me know. It's been discussed ad nauseum, but I'm sure you'll come up with some ingenious little flop argument to explain how not winning more games is on Melo, and not the fact that the team sucks.

Not at all. I suspect the team will worse without melo and that it isn't very good.

But it's time for him to move on because how good they proved to be with him serves no purpose. There is value to be derived in the NBA from being good, and there's some value to be derived from being very bad. There's little to no value to be derived from being 30-37 win bad.

I have no interest in blaming him, I just don't see the point of not making the playoffs again with him.

What's your retort to that?

So if i can follow this deeply thought out line of logic you're selling,
- the team will be worse, but that's better than being mediocre, because only being really bad serves a purpose. The Great Hinkie Argument That Never Ends. Check.
So I thought we already spent two years of sucking bad so we could get our unicorn. Hasn't the let's be really bad, like historically bad, already been done?
- is it a verifiable fact that with this crew, the team would not have made the playoffs with Melo? I think before the trade, the hype was possibly squeaking in with a slightly weaker Eastern conference. But maybe that was just me and wishful thinking.

I understand your "draft the shiny new things as much as possible, as often as possible", while we all eat chips and discuss the finer legal points of the business that needs to go on, but just suppose, rather than watching blowouts and continual losses in the last 5 minutes of almost every game, that this team was able to get into the playoffs, much like, and much younger, than what occurred in 99? Would that be of any value?

I happen to think it would. Along the lines of a great philosopher on this site, I always want this team to succeed. And success is winning games. Not bargaining for more ping pong balls.

The lottery breeds one thing more than any other; losers.

jrodmc wrote:So I thought we already spent two years of sucking bad so we could get our unicorn. Hasn't the let's be really bad, like historically bad, already been done?
- is it a verifiable fact that with this crew, the team would not have made the playoffs with Melo? I think before the trade, the hype was possibly squeaking in with a slightly weaker Eastern conference. But maybe that was just me and wishful thinking.

I think you need to answer these questions yourself, because it is you who was arguing the Knicks suck, assuming I would disagree with you.

A reminder.

"...but I'm sure you'll come up with some ingenious little flop argument to explain how not winning more games is on Melo, and not the fact that the team sucks."

So trying to recently piece together your position..

1.) You think outside of Melo the team sucks. That's indisputable. You said it outright, multiple times.

2.) The Knicks haven't been good with Melo for 4 years.

3.) You think outside of Melo the team sucks. This bears repeating.

4.) You think despite #1-3, another year later in his age 33 season, Melo was going to do something he hasn't done in any of the previous four years, which is carry a team that sucks by himself to the playoffs.

The idea of #4 seems disconnected from your own overall view of the team, unless you're expecting some kind of significant resurgent season from Melo, which despite his greatness, yes, seems like wishful thinking to me.

Agree/disagree?

I understand your "draft the shiny new things as much as possible, as often as possible", while we all eat chips and discuss the finer legal points of the business that needs to go on, but just suppose, rather than watching blowouts and continual losses in the last 5 minutes of almost every game, that this team was able to get into the playoffs, much like, and much younger, than what occurred in 99? Would that be of any value?

Perhaps, but the point seems moot, because outside of one lone, aging star, you think the team sucks.

I guess I'm a little confused. You challenged me assuming I was going to argue the team is better than they are, now it seems like you're trying to convince me they're better than you think.

I'll give you this, that's a new one for me.

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Welpee wrote:

reub wrote:

Gudris wrote:Melo looks really unhappy and confused, start to feel sorry for him

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/912437672119062529

He's no longer the top dog, can't demand the ball, can't ignore the coach, can't undermine the system, can't berate his teammates, can't get management fired and now lives in Oklahoma. Poor guy!

I'm glad we can move on from Melo too, but how much longer are the Melo haters going to keep this up? If you don't like his game, fine. But this exaggeration about all the "bad" he did while he was here is ridiculous and totally unfair.

I don’t think anyone can hate melo the person dude is a great guy off the court. But fans have every right to hate on melo the player, nobody wants him injured, or should feel sorry for him. I’m sure it burns him on the inside that he became the biggest star looser in the nba, he failed to elevate his teammates games with his play. He’ll never be a leader like Jordan,Kobe,O’Neal, lebron, magic, bird, Ewing.

Melo is a second or third tier star, an’t no shame he’s just not as good.

Hating on him because he's not among the greatest of all time or the greatest Knick of all-time? Maybe if we expected Melo to be Kobe that on us and not him? All of us can only be who we are. I agree, in hindsight Melo is no better than the #2 guy on a top flight team yet he was put in the position of being the top dog. Would Kevin McHale be who he is if he had to be the top dog in Boston instead of Bird?

Again, I'm happy Melo is gone and both parties can move on because it wasn't working here. But I think folks should really reexamine why they're exercising their "right" to hate on Melo and ask is it really fair.

how about simply hating on him for not playing defense, holding the ball and stinking in the playoffs. Are those fair reasons to be happy to move on from this superstar? I mean I cant remember a player whos had a such a blind group of devout followers who make excuses for every one of his shortcomings and failures. It gets old and Im happy to move on from it. Like we got a great 3/4 of a season from Amare we got a great season from Melo and it was fun. The rest of it was poor play on bad teams. Yea... most of Melo's teams here sucked. Thats not on him. In 7 years here he proved his reputation for apathetic defense, holding the ball and shooting his team out of the playoffs every year.

Its a big shrug.

That being said I am feeling better and better about the trade. I like the trio of Willy/KP/Kanter up front to grow and evaluate. Maybe one gets traded. Maybe Kanter or Willy become a great bench option. Kanter certainly was last year. McBuckets could also be a useful player. He's not a good defender but he tries. He reminds me of Allan Houston in that regard. He's got a sweet stroke, and we have an offensive coach. I think we did OK overall. Would have been nice to get a young defensive 3, like the Portland kid but we did OK. Now its up the FO and coaches to get these guys involved.

I do like our depth and I think that will challenge the team to be better. Fighting for minutes isnt a bad thing.

So I assume you hated on STAT too?

I'm also warming up to the trade the more I hear from and learn about Kanter. Look, I'm totally on board with supporting Melo being moved. I just don't get how he deserves so much hating. He didn't come here promising championships. If people expected him to be "Lebron-lite" that's our fault. Melo doesn't elevate teams but when he had a solid team around him he produced in both Denver and here. I'm not asking people to have a love-fest with Melo, just asking people to be fair.

Amare... a GREAT 3/4 of a season. He was so good. Shockingly the Knicks gave a guy with bad knees a huge contract. Guess what? He had bad knees. Terrible move.

Hate on STAT? Am I hating on Melo? I have never done anything but call Melo for what I see. That included showing him with praise during that 54 win season. Guys like DK and TFK would go nuts on me because I went from calling out for quoting on MDA to saying he was playing like one of the best in the NBA. He was. Knicks were the #2 seed in the conference. Melo was amazing that year. Not so much other years. Thats hate? Boy that sure feels like me calling it like I see it. Im a Knick fan. I like it when the team wins. When they do I harp on the guys playing well. When they stink I harp on guys who stink. Maybe Im not harping enough on Bargs and thats ruining my JRod rating and has the Hofstra police on my case. Ill work hard to point out how bad Bargs was for us

It's funny, because in my addled recollection of this site, you were always one of the more level headed when it came to dealing with the deranged MeloHate posters (Marbury was better! Remember the Mardy! I'd rather have Gallo back! Trade Melo straight up for Eddy Curry! I WANT MY JEREMY BACK!!!) Even when Melo was declining as we drifted into the Phil regime and we became the Westchester Knicks...

As far as I can see, it's only been the past season or so that your tone has changed. And it almost directly co-incided with the "disappearance" of the aforementioned tkf, dk7twtf, and people like the more rabid Darkside of ChuckBuck and Splat. Actually, I remember +1-ing so many of your posts back then that I started to feel very uncomfortably like a groupie. I once went so cough cough rhymes with Romo that I actually asked martin what the hell happened to you because I didn't notice you posting at all. Maybe you just felt the need to fill the void. I think there's meds for that, but the side effects probably aren't worth it. You might have ended up out-John Sterling me on this site. Well, probably not.

I guess if I actually cared enough and had any ambition at all, I could search back and find all those not quite Homer, but absolutely pro-Melo posts that weren't all about the 54 win season.

Wow, I have my own rating system? Who knew! (Or cares?)

and what has happened in that year? Did Melo's scoring eff% drop? Did all his defensive metrics go from average to abysmal? See that correlation?

Exactly. What's more suprising is people's who don't adjust their views even after Melo declines so much on both ends.

because they are emotionally invested. You cant argue with feelings. I root for every player on the Knicks to succeed.

What's more surprising is you never address what I post. You go off on some tangent, usually metrics-based (apparently so you can attract Bonn to your side). Melo has had worse years here, defensively than last season. Yet this past season, when there really was nothing else that startling to get excited about, suddenly Melo's lack of offensive or defensive efficiency is now too much to tolerate anymore. I find that more surprising than anything else. Especially from someone rooting for every player on the Knicks to succeed. Melo's only been gone four days.

And no matter what you continue to bark about, offensively or defensively, he was still the best player on the team. It's about wins and losses my friends, not just emotional attachment. One thing I did notice while trawling through basketball-reference, his iso, ball hogging didn't have his shot attempts going up, despite all this "he's keeping the yoots from developing!"

I think the biggest issue during all the most rabid of times debating MeloHate on here, was that no matter what adjustments the man made to his game, it was never enough.

Oh well, it's over.

Let it go... let it go....