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knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Haven't we been near the bottom for the last few years? Continuity doesnt mean much if good players arent staying. We've got that. Not enough, but Im glad the Knicks aren't making wholesale changes for the time being. Want to see how far the younger players, rookies, sophomores, KP, can take the team. Continuity helps.

It's a big deal for me considering the the 8 to 12 new players every yr under phil

Rebuilding process slowly switching from accumulation part to evaluation part.
Obviously it will be more changes and addition in next couple of years of rebuilding.
Especially with Melo departure somewhere along the line.
But in general we are on the right path.

GustavBahler wrote:

arkrud wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Haven't we been near the bottom for the last few years? Continuity doesnt mean much if good players arent staying. We've got that. Not enough, but Im glad the Knicks aren't making wholesale changes for the time being. Want to see how far the younger players, rookies, sophomores, KP, can take the team. Continuity helps.

It's a big deal for me considering the the 8 to 12 new players every yr under phil

Rebuilding process slowly switching from accumulation part to evaluation part.
Obviously it will be more changes and addition in next couple of years of rebuilding.
Especially with Melo departure somewhere along the line.
But in general we are on the right path.

We just went through a lengthy evaluation process to find players who fit a very specific system, with little or no success. We could easily have gone through another tear down if there hadn't been changes made over the summer.

Generally players that can fit the Triangle should be good in a lot of styles. At this point it no longer matters. Jeff can run whatever he wants and what he thinks will best fit his players. It's all good going into KP'S 3RD season with a nice group of young talent.

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

arkrud wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Haven't we been near the bottom for the last few years? Continuity doesnt mean much if good players arent staying. We've got that. Not enough, but Im glad the Knicks aren't making wholesale changes for the time being. Want to see how far the younger players, rookies, sophomores, KP, can take the team. Continuity helps.

It's a big deal for me considering the the 8 to 12 new players every yr under phil

Rebuilding process slowly switching from accumulation part to evaluation part.
Obviously it will be more changes and addition in next couple of years of rebuilding.
Especially with Melo departure somewhere along the line.
But in general we are on the right path.

We just went through a lengthy evaluation process to find players who fit a very specific system, with little or no success. We could easily have gone through another tear down if there hadn't been changes made over the summer.

Generally players that can fit the Triangle should be good in a lot of styles. At this point it no longer matters. Jeff can run whatever he wants and what he thinks will best fit his players. It's all good going into KP'S 3RD season with a nice group of young talent.

I would have to forget about all the stuff Phil said to the contrary to believe that he wasnt looking for a specific type of player for a very specific type of system. But you're right, its thankfully in the past. The Triangle is finally dead, hallelujah!

Gotta remember that Gaines was not only looking for Phil's criteria but also legit talent. I like the players they drafted and UDFA'S as well. They all seem like really solid pieces of the new core. Now the team can move forward with fewer limitations on the kind of players they add.

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

arkrud wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Haven't we been near the bottom for the last few years? Continuity doesnt mean much if good players arent staying. We've got that. Not enough, but Im glad the Knicks aren't making wholesale changes for the time being. Want to see how far the younger players, rookies, sophomores, KP, can take the team. Continuity helps.

It's a big deal for me considering the the 8 to 12 new players every yr under phil

Rebuilding process slowly switching from accumulation part to evaluation part.
Obviously it will be more changes and addition in next couple of years of rebuilding.
Especially with Melo departure somewhere along the line.
But in general we are on the right path.

We just went through a lengthy evaluation process to find players who fit a very specific system, with little or no success. We could easily have gone through another tear down if there hadn't been changes made over the summer.

Generally players that can fit the Triangle should be good in a lot of styles. At this point it no longer matters. Jeff can run whatever he wants and what he thinks will best fit his players. It's all good going into KP'S 3RD season with a nice group of young talent.

I would have to forget about all the stuff Phil said to the contrary to believe that he wasnt looking for a specific type of player for a very specific type of system. But you're right, its thankfully in the past. The Triangle is finally dead, hallelujah!

I'm not saying Phil was looking for a certain type of player. He was looking for players with TALENT ,BBIQ and skillS to play in the Triangle but in truth those kinds of players should be good team players.

Gotta remember that Gaines was not only looking for Phil's criteria but also legit talent. I like the players they drafted and UDFA'S as well. They all seem like really solid pieces of the new core. Now the team can move forward with fewer limitations on the kind of players they add.

Triangle player is a myth.
Players with balanced skills are reality.
Today's NBA demands versatility and this what we tried to get last 3 years.
It is not easy to get players wanted by every team so we get what we managed to get so far.
Only games will tell if we get anywhere with this and how much we have to go.

GustavBahler wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:We just went through a lengthy evaluation process to find players who fit a very specific system, with little or no success. We could easily have gone through another tear down if there hadn't been changes made over the summer.

No, actually that's not true.

Given the Knicks situation ( toxic environment, selfish "franchise player", bad owner, history of dysfunction and losing) and the general talent scarcity in the NBA, along with being gutted of picks in the timeline Jackson had, the Knicks had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get players either

A) They could get in limited trades, which naturally formed some very limited options given the cap and guaranteed contracts

B) They would have to overpay either in AAV or years to sign

C) They'd have to mine the 4th and 5th tiers of free agency, going after guys with no other options OR UDFAs who wouldn't even sniff the 15 man roster of most other NBA teams

There isn't enough talent at the NBA level to go after a specific style of play. The Warriors didn't plan any of this out. They just kept taking the best player they could and made the most out of trades when some players became available ( they had no control over this) and tried to make good market based decisions.

Derrick Rose was a Knick because Jackson had a long standing history with Paxton and the franchise itself, not because it was some grand sweeping strategy to specifically get one player. Also Jackson wanted to make the playoffs to keep his job and salvage his legacy.

There is no grand plan. The NBA never works like that. You go into each situation, making the best out of it as you can in the time and place. That's it. Esp in an early stage rebuild, you are just trying to amass talent and assets. Only when you are pushing to contend and go after NEED BASED decision making do you actually map out going after something very very specific ( i.e. the Thunder going after Perkins after the Chandler trade blew up on them or the Warriors mining big men like Looney or Jordan Bell)

It's not rocket science. Get guys with upside who are young ( usually through the draft) who will play actual team basketball and commit to defense. That's about it. If you do that, you hope the players offense comes along and you just hold tight and hope fo the best and good health.

You cannot sustain a roster core through only trades and free agency. Long standing continuity usually implies having a player through his FIRST CONTRACT and COST CONTROLLED ROOKIE YEARS.

If you are rebuilding, you don't want very much continuity at all. You want to churn your roster for as many future assets as possible.

Bad teams with extreme continuity against the salary scale usually implies bad veteran contracts ( i.e. Noah is going nowhere. Him being a Knick for four years is toxic to the entire rebuild situation)

Disagree. There was a "grand plan". It was to implement the Triangle, and gradually build around KP, though the draft and by trade. Phil repeatedly spoke of this plan himself.

The next season, Phil scrapped the plan, traded Lopez for Rose, signed Noah to an expensive, long term deal, signed Lee, and went for an instant contender. If Phil was serious about building though the draft, he wouldnt have brought in all those vets to win now.

You're right, it isnt rocket science. Phil had a good plan, but decided the only part of it worth keeping was the system. The system that even his former players say is difficult to learn, and takes several seasons to grasp. Yet he was emptying the roster every season to find the right players.

If Phil had installed a traditional offense, we would have seen it reflected in the record. Pretty sure Hornacek would have done a better job, even Fisher. Rambis has always been hopeless.

You want continuity so you dont have to go back to square one every season. You dont want to have to teach a system that is foreign to most current NBA players. You want your young players to develop some chemistry. Hard to do that if you are emptying the roster every season.

If Phil was still here, KP could easily been traded, and we would be starting with yet another complete roster overhaul. You seem to believe this so called rebuilding under Phil would have progressed beyond the yearly tear down. I doubt it. We would likely have spent the next several years watching Phil trying to find players for a dead system, and making everything else a distant second.

Phil with all his savvy as a coach and bbal mind was not a good GM type for rebuild.
Jimmy was also not ready for 5-7 years of uneventful bbal at MSG if he ever will.
NY fans are not on board with this too.
We need miracles and luck. We will see soon if we have some of them.