martin wrote:I thought Sept 25th but could be wrong

Wow! That would be nice!

smackeddog wrote:This must be the least hyped season for us in quite some time!

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:This must be the least hyped season for us in quite some time!

That's why the Knicks are gonna sneak up on people this year. They're being written off cuz there are no big splashy moves or big names this summer.

C'mon now.

They haven't done a thing in four years. That's why they're being "written off." And it's perfectly justifiable.

This isn't about the last 4 years. The lack of belief in the team has more to do with only making small changes this summer and as I said no Big Name Talent was added. Obviously if they added bigger name talent there would be more hype around the team. I don't mean broke down guys either.

Losing the last few years doesn't mean the assessment of the team this year is correct simply because of the losing. IMO this team blew an awful lot of games that were winnable. Something like 16 close games this team failed to close. IMO the margin was very close in far too many losses. Poor execution and effort was often the cause of the losses!

IMO returning key players should show growth as they're maturing and I think there are fewer Headcases on the roster this year. This team should've won more games than they did last season. Guys refusing to BUY IN cost them games. I think a fair case can be made that this roster won't suffer anywhere near as much from the same dysfunction, SELFISHNESS and confusion as last year's team. There are more Team Oriented players and more HUNGRY players this year. A little more continuity as well.

Proper execution can make up for a LOT in the NBA. I expect this team to improve defensively and offensively with better 3pt shooting, PnR and more fast breaks than last season.

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:This must be the least hyped season for us in quite some time!

That's why the Knicks are gonna sneak up on people this year. They're being written off cuz there are no big splashy moves or big names this summer.

C'mon now.

They haven't done a thing in four years. That's why they're being "written off." And it's perfectly justifiable.

This isn't about the last 4 years. The lack of belief in the team has more to do with only making small changes this summer and as I said no Big Name Talent was added. Obviously if they added bigger name talent there would be more hype around the team. I don't mean broke down guys either.

Losing the last few years doesn't mean the assessment of the team this year is correct simply because of the losing. IMO this team blew an awful lot of games that were winnable. Something like 16 close games this team failed to close. IMO the margin was very close in far too many losses. Poor execution and effort was often the cause of the losses!

IMO returning key players should show growth as they're maturing and I think there are fewer Headcases on the roster this year. This team should've won more games than they did last season. Guys refusing to BUY IN cost them games. I think a fair case can be made that this roster won't suffer anywhere near as much from the same dysfunction, SELFISHNESS and confusion as last year's team. There are more Team Oriented players and more HUNGRY players this year. A little more continuity as well.

Proper execution can make up for a LOT in the NBA. I expect this team to improve defensively and offensively with better 3pt shooting, PnR and more fast breaks than last season.

I have no problem with the fan looking at the 'best case scenario' and being optimistic in the off-season. But at the same time I don't think it's hard to understand and appreciate why people without a rooting interest wouldn't share your optimism.

That said, and I've said this before, projection systems that don't take into account all the things you're optimistic about, that are different to all the things you said went wrong last year, pretty much nailed their win total, based solely on roster analysis. Pretty much the year before as well.

Over the last 15 years, more often than not us Knicks fans have been offended by the off-season projections and predictions, suggesting the media just hated the Knicks and were not objectives towards them. But they've been right, and sometime spot on, far more often than we have.

I'm done second-guessing them. I'm giving them their due. Again projection systems indifferent to all the things you cite as last year's negatives see the Knicks as a 30 win team.

I fully understand the track record but I'm still not sold that THIS team is destined to play down to the low expectations of the Pros.

What I saw last year from this team will not be repeated by this year's roster IMO. Started last year with Noah, Rose and CLee. There will be a different starting unit and rotation this year. IMO an improved SL and Rotation. I expect our young studs to take a big step up this year.

We didn't have THJ and Beasley last year and I see them as an improvement. The removal of DRose and Jennings can only help to improve the execution on both ends. Can't play much worse defensively than our guards did. While there's no proven star performer at PG I do think that the guys we'll have will at least put forth a legit effort on D and play more unselfish on O!

None of these are huge shifts but IMO they can add up to make enough of a difference to make improvement. Better effort and execution is what I'm expecting.

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:This must be the least hyped season for us in quite some time!

That's why the Knicks are gonna sneak up on people this year. They're being written off cuz there are no big splashy moves or big names this summer.

C'mon now.

They haven't done a thing in four years. That's why they're being "written off." And it's perfectly justifiable.

This isn't about the last 4 years. The lack of belief in the team has more to do with only making small changes this summer and as I said no Big Name Talent was added. Obviously if they added bigger name talent there would be more hype around the team. I don't mean broke down guys either.

Losing the last few years doesn't mean the assessment of the team this year is correct simply because of the losing. IMO this team blew an awful lot of games that were winnable. Something like 16 close games this team failed to close. IMO the margin was very close in far too many losses. Poor execution and effort was often the cause of the losses!

IMO returning key players should show growth as they're maturing and I think there are fewer Headcases on the roster this year. This team should've won more games than they did last season. Guys refusing to BUY IN cost them games. I think a fair case can be made that this roster won't suffer anywhere near as much from the same dysfunction, SELFISHNESS and confusion as last year's team. There are more Team Oriented players and more HUNGRY players this year. A little more continuity as well.

Proper execution can make up for a LOT in the NBA. I expect this team to improve defensively and offensively with better 3pt shooting, PnR and more fast breaks than last season.

I have no problem with the fan looking at the 'best case scenario' and being optimistic in the off-season. But at the same time I don't think it's hard to understand and appreciate why people without a rooting interest wouldn't share your optimism.

That said, and I've said this before, projection systems that don't take into account all the things you're optimistic about, that are different to all the things you said went wrong last year, pretty much nailed their win total, based solely on roster analysis. Pretty much the year before as well.

Over the last 15 years, more often than not us Knicks fans have been offended by the off-season projections and predictions, suggesting the media just hated the Knicks and were not objectives towards them. But they've been right, and sometime spot on, far more often than we have.

I'm done second-guessing them. I'm giving them their due. Again projection systems indifferent to all the things you cite as last year's negatives see the Knicks as a 30 win team.

I fully understand the track record but I'm still not sold that THIS team is destined to play down to the low expectations of the Pros.

What I saw last year from this team will not be repeated by this year's roster IMO. Started last year with Noah, Rose and CLee. There will be a different starting unit and rotation this year. IMO an improved SL and Rotation. I expect our young studs to take a big step up this year.

We didn't have THJ and Beasley last year and I see them as an improvement. The removal of DRose and Jennings can only help to improve the execution on both ends. Can't play much worse defensively than our guards did. While there's no proven star performer at PG I do think that the guys we'll have will at least put forth a legit effort on D and play more unselfish on O!

None of these are huge shifts but IMO they can add up to make enough of a difference to make improvement. Better effort and execution is what I'm expecting.

The projection systems know Rose and Jennings are no longer on the roster. They know Hardaway is. They account for progression from younger players. All the things you say are baked in the pie.

The Knicks most certainly could've won more of those 16 close losses simply with more effort and better execution as a team. We know for a FACT that players didn't BUY IN. That early season Player Meeting made that abundantly clear. I don't see that kind of mentality happening this season.

Last season the Knicks were 16-13 by Dec. 23rd. Rather than improving, they proceeded to fall off the map after that. The Knicks should've improved as opposed to regressing like that. A few of the teams in the East that were ahead of the Knicks lost top players this summer. Pacers, Bulls and Hawks in particular. They have the Magic, Pacers, Bulls and Sixers ahead of the Knicks. I actually think the Knicks will be highly competitive with all the teams in the East outside of the top 5 spots. Toronto, Wash, Milwaukee, Boston and Cleveland are strong, but the rest aren't significantly separated from the Knicks IMO.

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:This must be the least hyped season for us in quite some time!

That's why the Knicks are gonna sneak up on people this year. They're being written off cuz there are no big splashy moves or big names this summer.

C'mon now.

They haven't done a thing in four years. That's why they're being "written off." And it's perfectly justifiable.

This isn't about the last 4 years. The lack of belief in the team has more to do with only making small changes this summer and as I said no Big Name Talent was added. Obviously if they added bigger name talent there would be more hype around the team. I don't mean broke down guys either.

Losing the last few years doesn't mean the assessment of the team this year is correct simply because of the losing. IMO this team blew an awful lot of games that were winnable. Something like 16 close games this team failed to close. IMO the margin was very close in far too many losses. Poor execution and effort was often the cause of the losses!

IMO returning key players should show growth as they're maturing and I think there are fewer Headcases on the roster this year. This team should've won more games than they did last season. Guys refusing to BUY IN cost them games. I think a fair case can be made that this roster won't suffer anywhere near as much from the same dysfunction, SELFISHNESS and confusion as last year's team. There are more Team Oriented players and more HUNGRY players this year. A little more continuity as well.

Proper execution can make up for a LOT in the NBA. I expect this team to improve defensively and offensively with better 3pt shooting, PnR and more fast breaks than last season.

I have no problem with the fan looking at the 'best case scenario' and being optimistic in the off-season. But at the same time I don't think it's hard to understand and appreciate why people without a rooting interest wouldn't share your optimism.

That said, and I've said this before, projection systems that don't take into account all the things you're optimistic about, that are different to all the things you said went wrong last year, pretty much nailed their win total, based solely on roster analysis. Pretty much the year before as well.

Over the last 15 years, more often than not us Knicks fans have been offended by the off-season projections and predictions, suggesting the media just hated the Knicks and were not objectives towards them. But they've been right, and sometime spot on, far more often than we have.

I'm done second-guessing them. I'm giving them their due. Again projection systems indifferent to all the things you cite as last year's negatives see the Knicks as a 30 win team.

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:This must be the least hyped season for us in quite some time!

That's why the Knicks are gonna sneak up on people this year. They're being written off cuz there are no big splashy moves or big names this summer.

C'mon now.

They haven't done a thing in four years. That's why they're being "written off." And it's perfectly justifiable.

This isn't about the last 4 years. The lack of belief in the team has more to do with only making small changes this summer and as I said no Big Name Talent was added. Obviously if they added bigger name talent there would be more hype around the team. I don't mean broke down guys either.

Losing the last few years doesn't mean the assessment of the team this year is correct simply because of the losing. IMO this team blew an awful lot of games that were winnable. Something like 16 close games this team failed to close. IMO the margin was very close in far too many losses. Poor execution and effort was often the cause of the losses!

IMO returning key players should show growth as they're maturing and I think there are fewer Headcases on the roster this year. This team should've won more games than they did last season. Guys refusing to BUY IN cost them games. I think a fair case can be made that this roster won't suffer anywhere near as much from the same dysfunction, SELFISHNESS and confusion as last year's team. There are more Team Oriented players and more HUNGRY players this year. A little more continuity as well.

Proper execution can make up for a LOT in the NBA. I expect this team to improve defensively and offensively with better 3pt shooting, PnR and more fast breaks than last season.

I have no problem with the fan looking at the 'best case scenario' and being optimistic in the off-season. But at the same time I don't think it's hard to understand and appreciate why people without a rooting interest wouldn't share your optimism.

That said, and I've said this before, projection systems that don't take into account all the things you're optimistic about, that are different to all the things you said went wrong last year, pretty much nailed their win total, based solely on roster analysis. Pretty much the year before as well.

Over the last 15 years, more often than not us Knicks fans have been offended by the off-season projections and predictions, suggesting the media just hated the Knicks and were not objectives towards them. But they've been right, and sometime spot on, far more often than we have.

I'm done second-guessing them. I'm giving them their due. Again projection systems indifferent to all the things you cite as last year's negatives see the Knicks as a 30 win team.

I fully understand the track record but I'm still not sold that THIS team is destined to play down to the low expectations of the Pros.

What I saw last year from this team will not be repeated by this year's roster IMO. Started last year with Noah, Rose and CLee. There will be a different starting unit and rotation this year. IMO an improved SL and Rotation. I expect our young studs to take a big step up this year.

We didn't have THJ and Beasley last year and I see them as an improvement. The removal of DRose and Jennings can only help to improve the execution on both ends. Can't play much worse defensively than our guards did. While there's no proven star performer at PG I do think that the guys we'll have will at least put forth a legit effort on D and play more unselfish on O!

None of these are huge shifts but IMO they can add up to make enough of a difference to make improvement. Better effort and execution is what I'm expecting.

The projection systems know Rose and Jennings are no longer on the roster. They know Hardaway is. They account for progression from younger players. All the things you say are baked in the pie.

All of this may be true but that doesn't mean the Knicks are a lock to go 30-52 or 32-50 as a couple of predictions have them finishing. I don't believe any of these predictions factor in Fit, Chemistry and Effort level. You just can't know that for sure based on the STATS.

Of course not, but that's also the whole point. The production systems never do, but they've a pretty spot on pretty consistently.

By your logic, the Knicks should've been a better team last year, so the unbiased, multiple, different systems was just a coincidence, over multiple years. I have a hard time believing that.

Last season the Knicks were 16-13 by Dec. 23rd. Rather than improving, they proceeded to fall off the map after that. The Knicks should've improved as opposed to regressing like that.

This is the flaw in this reasoning, and fans and all sports are guilty of it. They want their team to be good, so when the team goes through a good stretch, they assume that is the baseline and if all things are going as they should, they should at least play to that level if not better.

That isn't how sports works though, sometimes not-so-good teams play above their head, the same as good teams play below the level. You can't assume 16-13 was who they should've been any more than they were for the remaining 53.

Perhaps but having watched how things played out they lost too many games not because of a lack of talent but poor effort and execution on both ends. In other words the RIGHT thing wasn't done despite the opportunity being their to win simply with EXECUTION.

Why the Knicks Struggle to Win the Close Ones

KATHY WILLENS / ASSOCIATED PRESS
JANUARY 23, 2017

By MIKE VORKUNOV

The trend started in mid-December, with an overtime loss in Phoenix, with Kristaps Porzingis scoring 34 points but fouling out and Carmelo Anthony connecting on only three of his 15 shots.

Still, close losses happen over the course of a long N.B.A. season. That the Knicks had just suffered one by 2 points on the road was hardly a big deal.

Indeed, that was their last close game until two weeks later, on Dec. 25 at Madison Square Garden. With the score tied in the final minute, the Boston Celtics executed a six-pass sequence that ended in a 3-pointer. The Knicks responded with a clumsy play in which Anthony ended up trapped along the sideline and had the ball knocked away.

Final score: Celtics 119, Knicks 114.

Three days later, in Atlanta, the Knicks had another close loss, although this one was a little crazier, with Anthony ejected in the second quarter for tussling with Thabo Sefolosha. Porzingis, a 79 percent free-throw shooter this season, needed to hit three consecutive free throws with the Knicks down 3 points and only seconds left in overtime. He couldn’t.

Final score: Hawks 102, Knicks 98.

Since then, the pattern has largely held. The Knicks have played six more games decided by 5 points or fewer and have managed to lose all but one of them. The disheartening set of events propelled a downward spiral in which they had lost 13 of 16 games entering Monday’s road game at Indiana.

In yet another close game, the Knicks managed to hold on for a 109-103 victory over the Pacers, but only after a fourth-quarter stretch over more than six minutes in which they scored just 2 points and allowed a double-digit lead to evaporate. A jumper by Anthony in the final minute restored the lead, providing a happier ending than the Knicks’ game against Phoenix on Saturday night at the Garden, when his last-second 3-point shot rolled around the rim and out. Final score of that one: Suns 107, Knicks 105.

“We’re doing the right things now; it’s just we’re not there yet,” Porzingis said after the Suns game. “We’re not that good. We’re not able to finish those games yet.”

In theory, the Knicks should be well equipped for tight end-of-game situations. With Anthony, Porzingis and Derrick Rose, they have three strong scorers who should be able to create shots when needed. But most of the time it has not worked out that way.

Not helping matters, either, is a Knicks defense that has been woeful all season, whether in the middle of games or at the end. Misfortune has also been a factor in all of these narrow defeats. The Knicks won a bunch of close games earlier this season, and the law of averages may be working against them these days.

But back to the defense. While the Knicks have one of the lowest-ranked defenses in the N.B.A., their defensive rating is in the middle of the pack for the final two minutes of games in which the margin is 4 points or fewer. Still, there have been notable breakdowns.

In another close loss to the Hawks, on Jan. 16 in New York, Atlanta’s Dennis Schroder hit an open 3-pointer with 22 seconds left. Afterward, Knicks Coach Jeff Hornacek admonished Rose for essentially leaving Schroder unguarded. Final score: Hawks 108, Knicks 107.

In the loss to the Suns, Rose was drawn too close to the ballhandler on a pick-and-roll play, leaving him too far from Devin Booker, the player he was supposed to be guarding. Booker ended up hitting the game-winning 3-pointer with 31.7 seconds left.

But there have also been mishaps on the offensive end in these games. The Knicks missed three close-range shots on one possession after Schroder’s 3-pointer in the Jan. 16 game. Anthony missed that 3-pointer Saturday. The Knicks’ last possession in a 113-110 loss to the Wizards on Thursday went haywire — although it was affected by the Washington assistant coach Sidney Lowe, who walked onto the court as the play progressed.

And in that overtime loss in Atlanta in December, Rose failed to pass to Porzingis near the end of overtime even though Porzingis was in a mismatch, guarded by a player more than a foot shorter.

Over all, the Knicks have been one of the least-efficient offensive teams in the final two minutes of close games. Entering Monday night, Anthony had taken 30 shots this season in the final two minutes of games in which the score was within 5 points and hit just nine. Rose had taken 23 of those shots and made nine, too. Porzingis had taken 14 shots and hit seven.

Maybe Porzingis should get more shots at the end of close games. Then again, he is the one who shot an end-of-the-game air ball in the Knicks’ 98-97 loss in Philadelphia on Jan. 11.