Knickoftime wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls,

You are, in fact, making that up.

He was second in total fouls to Cousins. Fouls are like hits in Major League baseball - sometimes your total is the product of a lot of GP/ABs or a lack of walks and not necessarily a high batting average.

Diving even deeper, per 48 mins he was in a four way tie for 97th at 5.4 per, behind players like Daryl Arthur (80), Michael Carter-Williams (72), David West (68), Joakim Noah (65), Joel Embiid & Kyle O'Quinn (39), Roy Hibbert (33), and Andrew Bogut (32) (and 87 more).

But I don't suspect the facts matter to you much.

When someone says he's tops they are normally speaking of a group thats part of the top, i did not specifically say he lead the league in fouls..which for most of the season he did, but he miss the last 3 wks of the season, so cousin beat him out.

That per sht is a bogus stat and I hate it, because to me all that means is..IF he played this many minutes he would avg this..totally potential, which you knows is not always accurate.

Why are you debating me on this, he fouls way too much, and it's not because he's young, it's because he hasnt been taught right.

Is towns fouling out every other game, is every 21 yr old in the nba tops in fouls giving..

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message.

I agree with most everything that you said obviously, since I wrote much of it in my own reply.

Don't agree with us though. Waiving him means he gets all his money, and goes to Houston, where he wants to go. It's a win-win for him. Knicks would be doing him a favor.

No Houston doesn't get his bird rights, but I don't think the fact that the knicks aren't giving him a win-win-win would be viewed negatively.

So you would be willing to take a match and lighter fluid to 54 million $$ just to get rid of 1 player..

Your only thinking like that because it's not your money, and you hate the guy..that clouds your judgment

knicks1248 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message.

I agree with most everything that you said obviously, since I wrote much of it in my own reply.

Don't agree with us though. Waiving him means he gets all his money, and goes to Houston, where he wants to go. It's a win-win for him. Knicks would be doing him a favor.

No Houston doesn't get his bird rights, but I don't think the fact that the knicks aren't giving him a win-win-win would be viewed negatively.

So you would be willing to take a match and lighter fluid to 54 million $$ just to get rid of 1 player..

Yes.

If a trade isn't eventually agreed upon, and if Melo holds firm on the buyout. So no, not until the regular season starts, and Melo shows his resolve.

and you hate the guy..that clouds your judgment

Not at all.

Defended the trade, still do.

Defended the new contract, still do.

It just hasn't worked out.

And here's the most important reason:

knicks1248 wrote:Im going to go out on a limb and predict they will be in the lottery again this season

If they're going to be a lottery team (you and I agree), his continued presence is both unnecessary and counterproductive.

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Lee, Noah, Lance, and KOQ's value HAS DIMINISH in the last couple of losing seasons, and it's imperative to get those vets going so they become trade assets.

Noah's contract, his drug suspension, his injury history and his play are four far greater factors (in that order) in his value than the Knicks team record.

I don't buy your premise and I'm pretty certain you have no evidence of it. NBA teams scout, they don't check the standings. Teams are indifferent to where talent comes from. They'd be more than happy to poach talent from a bad team.

Losing 60 games wont help anyone, not mills, not JH, and definitely not the players. There is a 85% chance of us drafting another role player even if we tank

And AGAIN, no one is proposing they tank.

Trading or releasing Melo (the centerpiece of four losing seasons in a row) is not tanking, it's rebuilding.

add that to the diminishing facts, and the young kp and willy walking out on you.

As someone who values precedent, I can't get too worried about KP. A rookie taking a qualifying offer as opposed to a max extension is literally unprecedented. To be concerned about that is hysterical, in the crazy, not humorous sense.

Plus he has two more years and then he's an RFA. Hernangomez is locked up for three more years. What happens in 2017-18 will be pretty ancient history by that stage.

So the benefit of tanking gives you a very small chance of getting a young star, and a very big chance of all the above

And AGAIN, who are you guys talking to and about with this tanking stuff?

Some good points. Disagree that releasing Melo would help rebuilding. Since you are a guy who values precedent, which franchise in recent history has gained anything by releasing their best player (who is healthy) with nothing in return?

Admittedly it is difficult to come up with one.

That said NTCs are very rare making the Knicks options with melo relatively unprecedented.

The question I can't answer is what does melo do for the Knicks?

His game doesn't seem conducive to developing youth. His demeanor doesn't seemed geared to adopting a true mentor role. His production hasn't helped much the last 4 seasons.

So what's the value added of his presence at this stage?

True. A NTC is tricky. But that just quickly moves us to the next option. The one that I disagreed with you about. Buying him out with no return. Kust add zero value.

So we cut him because he does not hel devwlo the youth? Is he now the coach? With that rationale, every player on the team that does not help develop the youth should be bought out. Was that the criteria for signing Beasley, Timmy? If so, they failed. Should we now buy out guys like KO, Kuz and Noah? Dint see hiw they help.

As for mentoring. How can you or I measure if he is a good Mentor? And what kind of mentoring are we talkimg about? Do you mean mentoring the youth on how to run the Triangle? Agreed, Melo can't do that. But dont think anyone can, including the 3 coaches that tried. Mayne you mean mentoring the youth by showing them how a pro stays in shape, is a good team mate, works hard on his craft, handles pressure, is not afraid to take a big shot and keeps his mouth shut and plays ball(even if front office is publicly criticizing him)? He can do that. Can he Mentor someone on offensive moves? He can. Mentor someone on defense, nope, let's cut him? .

The value he adds is that he gives them a better chance to win. Judging by their record without him. However, I agree that he should and will be traded. Just not bought out. In my opinion (and the new front office's) buying him out adds less value than keeping him on the team.

Josh Smith led the Piston's in minutes played and shots taken. He was waived the following year.

How do you quantify Melo's value in terms of the Knicks winning? How do you quantify Melo as the Knick's best player? He's certainly not the best defender. He leads the team shots taken for sure, but he was 7th on the team in true shooting %, He was 9th in FG% on the team. 9th on the team in EFG%.

So you have a guy who a terrible defender last year. They track this stuff. His defensive metrics, rankings... everything was abysmal. So that leaves you with a guy who is a scorer. Well he sure takes a lot of shots, but he's between 7-9th, ON HIS OWN TEAM in like every measurable efficiency category.

Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message. This is a marriage that can end gracefully and it should. Melo is a HOF player. He came and took the blame (and the shots). Melo isnt a bum. He IS a bad fit on a young developing team. Why? You know why. Everyone knows why. Having Melo hold the ball, struggle on D as he continues to age and slow and take 20+ shots a game is doing nothing to aid the development on anyone on this roster. That time as simply passed. The young players should be taking those shots hit or miss. The young guy should be playing better defense, and if they dont thats why they are getting the minutes.. to learn and be evaluated by the FO.

I can see that many's desire to jettison Melo rubs you the wrong way, but you speak of him like he's the 54 win Melo and its just been a couple tough years. That player has been gone for awhile and his game has been in steady decline, regardless of who his teammates are.

Does winning 38 games with Melo make sense vs. winning 32 games without him? Do those 6 wins help us? I dont see how they do. What would help us is seeing Dotson for 50+ games and seeing what he's got. Or Kuz.

Melo actually has some upside for the team that gets him. He will be better than he was with the Knicks. Thats more human nature than anything else. Is he bringing leadership and intangibles we need to hang onto? I hope so! I really do (if he's around in the fall).

Funny. I agree with 85% of what you said. Domt think anyone in the NBA would put Josh Smith at same level with what Carmelo' s has done. Okay, so who do you think is our best player? Why? I think many players, coaches, GM's would agree with me. But fair enough, your entitled to your opinion.

Point of all this was to state it is dumb to buy him out/waive him. Again, most in the NBA and our front office agree.Didmt mean to make turn this into yet another analysis of his game.

Bit okay, you keep mentioning his ussage and shots taken per game. We both know that he takes more shots than anyone on the team. Believe his average was a bit over 18 per, right? And about 2,3 or 4 that were due to team mates handing him the ball with seconds left or end of quarter iso's. But still a lot. Now. Who is the guy that replaces him? How many shots will he take? Average for position is 15? 14? So will that really improve other players attempts? Agree that its ready to see a Knicks team without Melo. Just don't want to get zero in return just because some blame him for all our problems.

HofstraBBall wrote:Just don't want to get zero in return just because some blame him for all our problems.

Acknowledging his status and abilities have not helped the team make the postseason in the last four years is not the same thing as "blaming him for everything."

There's just no upside to having Melo anymore. If you told me the Knicks were likely going to play meaningful postseason games sometime in the next two years i'd say a maybe.

But if not, what is the point of the extra wins he theoretically provides?

HofstraBBall wrote:Just don't Thu k it's smart to release/buy him out.

Let's forget about the issue of the perception of him for second. What's not tie this into the issue of people who exaggerate his shortcomings or exaggerate his worth.

You agree it's best the Knicks move on. Why does a return or lack thereof turn that completely 180 degrees?

He has an NTC and a trade kicker. That ship has sailed.

Why is this team better in 2019-20 for having kept him, independent of the reasons why?

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Just don't Thu k it's smart to release/buy him out.

Let's forget about the issue of the perception of him for second. What's not tie this into the issue of people who exaggerate his shortcomings or exaggerate his worth.

You agree it's best the Knicks move on. Why does a return or lack thereof turn that completely 180 degrees?

He has an NTC and a trade kicker. That ship has sailed.

Why is this team better in 2019-20 for having kept him, independent of the reasons why?

Think your smart enough to answer that. But okay....Getting nothing in return for a player of Melo's caliber is a failure by that franchise/GM. Don't see how you can continue to argue that? Specially with the abiloty to quote precedence. Think anyone connected to an NBA front office would agree with me. Ie. PERRY. But let's wait and see if the Knicks get nothing. As you claim we should be happy to receive.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Lee, Noah, Lance, and KOQ's value HAS DIMINISH in the last couple of losing seasons, and it's imperative to get those vets going so they become trade assets.

Noah's contract, his drug suspension, his injury history and his play are four far greater factors (in that order) in his value than the Knicks team record.

I don't buy your premise and I'm pretty certain you have no evidence of it. NBA teams scout, they don't check the standings. Teams are indifferent to where talent comes from. They'd be more than happy to poach talent from a bad team.

Losing 60 games wont help anyone, not mills, not JH, and definitely not the players. There is a 85% chance of us drafting another role player even if we tank

And AGAIN, no one is proposing they tank.

Trading or releasing Melo (the centerpiece of four losing seasons in a row) is not tanking, it's rebuilding.

add that to the diminishing facts, and the young kp and willy walking out on you.

As someone who values precedent, I can't get too worried about KP. A rookie taking a qualifying offer as opposed to a max extension is literally unprecedented. To be concerned about that is hysterical, in the crazy, not humorous sense.

Plus he has two more years and then he's an RFA. Hernangomez is locked up for three more years. What happens in 2017-18 will be pretty ancient history by that stage.

So the benefit of tanking gives you a very small chance of getting a young star, and a very big chance of all the above

And AGAIN, who are you guys talking to and about with this tanking stuff?

Some good points. Disagree that releasing Melo would help rebuilding. Since you are a guy who values precedent, which franchise in recent history has gained anything by releasing their best player (who is healthy) with nothing in return?

Admittedly it is difficult to come up with one.

That said NTCs are very rare making the Knicks options with melo relatively unprecedented.

The question I can't answer is what does melo do for the Knicks?

His game doesn't seem conducive to developing youth. His demeanor doesn't seemed geared to adopting a true mentor role. His production hasn't helped much the last 4 seasons.

So what's the value added of his presence at this stage?

True. A NTC is tricky. But that just quickly moves us to the next option. The one that I disagreed with you about. Buying him out with no return. Kust add zero value.

So we cut him because he does not hel devwlo the youth? Is he now the coach? With that rationale, every player on the team that does not help develop the youth should be bought out. Was that the criteria for signing Beasley, Timmy? If so, they failed. Should we now buy out guys like KO, Kuz and Noah? Dint see hiw they help.

As for mentoring. How can you or I measure if he is a good Mentor? And what kind of mentoring are we talkimg about? Do you mean mentoring the youth on how to run the Triangle? Agreed, Melo can't do that. But dont think anyone can, including the 3 coaches that tried. Mayne you mean mentoring the youth by showing them how a pro stays in shape, is a good team mate, works hard on his craft, handles pressure, is not afraid to take a big shot and keeps his mouth shut and plays ball(even if front office is publicly criticizing him)? He can do that. Can he Mentor someone on offensive moves? He can. Mentor someone on defense, nope, let's cut him? .

The value he adds is that he gives them a better chance to win. Judging by their record without him. However, I agree that he should and will be traded. Just not bought out. In my opinion (and the new front office's) buying him out adds less value than keeping him on the team.

Josh Smith led the Piston's in minutes played and shots taken. He was waived the following year.

How do you quantify Melo's value in terms of the Knicks winning? How do you quantify Melo as the Knick's best player? He's certainly not the best defender. He leads the team shots taken for sure, but he was 7th on the team in true shooting %, He was 9th in FG% on the team. 9th on the team in EFG%.

So you have a guy who a terrible defender last year. They track this stuff. His defensive metrics, rankings... everything was abysmal. So that leaves you with a guy who is a scorer. Well he sure takes a lot of shots, but he's between 7-9th, ON HIS OWN TEAM in like every measurable efficiency category.

Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message. This is a marriage that can end gracefully and it should. Melo is a HOF player. He came and took the blame (and the shots). Melo isnt a bum. He IS a bad fit on a young developing team. Why? You know why. Everyone knows why. Having Melo hold the ball, struggle on D as he continues to age and slow and take 20+ shots a game is doing nothing to aid the development on anyone on this roster. That time as simply passed. The young players should be taking those shots hit or miss. The young guy should be playing better defense, and if they dont thats why they are getting the minutes.. to learn and be evaluated by the FO.

I can see that many's desire to jettison Melo rubs you the wrong way, but you speak of him like he's the 54 win Melo and its just been a couple tough years. That player has been gone for awhile and his game has been in steady decline, regardless of who his teammates are.

Does winning 38 games with Melo make sense vs. winning 32 games without him? Do those 6 wins help us? I dont see how they do. What would help us is seeing Dotson for 50+ games and seeing what he's got. Or Kuz.

Melo actually has some upside for the team that gets him. He will be better than he was with the Knicks. Thats more human nature than anything else. Is he bringing leadership and intangibles we need to hang onto? I hope so! I really do (if he's around in the fall).

Funny. I agree with 85% of what you said. Domt think anyone in the NBA would put Josh Smith at same level with what Carmelo' s has done. Okay, so who do you think is our best player? Why? I think many players, coaches, GM's would agree with me. But fair enough, your entitled to your opinion.

Point of all this was to state it is dumb to buy him out/waive him. Again, most in the NBA and our front office agree.Didmt mean to make turn this into yet another analysis of his game.

Bit okay, you keep mentioning his ussage and shots taken per game. We both know that he takes more shots than anyone on the team. Believe his average was a bit over 18 per, right? And about 2,3 or 4 that were due to team mates handing him the ball with seconds left or end of quarter iso's. But still a lot. Now. Who is the guy that replaces him? How many shots will he take? Average for position is 15? 14? So will that really improve other players attempts? Agree that its ready to see a Knicks team without Melo. Just don't want to get zero in return just because some blame him for all our problems.

As for who the Knick's best player is it's KP and thats not even up for debate. It shows in the stats, metrics, everywhere. You are telling me you think Melo is better than KP at this point? Melo has a bigger impact? Please... Not if we are going on what we have seen the last year and half. If DadMelo stayed you might have an arguement. DadMelo is dead or sleeping. ChuckingMelo was however wide awake.

Who gets the shots? Who indeed... lets see.

You are under the impression I think a Melo jettison makes the team better. It does. He's a talented productive player. It does get the Knicks closer to their longer term goal and future though.

No. Melo is (of course) much better than Josh Smith. Its rare to find players with big $$$ deals get waived. There just isnt much data to draw from there.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Just don't Thu k it's smart to release/buy him out.

Let's forget about the issue of the perception of him for second. What's not tie this into the issue of people who exaggerate his shortcomings or exaggerate his worth.

You agree it's best the Knicks move on. Why does a return or lack thereof turn that completely 180 degrees?

He has an NTC and a trade kicker. That ship has sailed.

Why is this team better in 2019-20 for having kept him, independent of the reasons why?

Think your smart enough to answer that. But okay....Getting nothing in return for a player of Melo's caliber is a failure by that franchise/GM. Don't see how you can continue to argue that?

I'm not smart enough to answer that and I continue to argue if because you didn't answer my question. I asked how is the team better? That it's a failure of the front office doesn't that answer question.

The bulk of the failure has already occurred and can't be undone - giving him the NTC and the trade kicker. What limited options Perry has because of that isn't really on Perry. He is at the mercy of Melo.

That rationale strikes me as similar to holding on to a losing stock for too long. Selling a stock at a loss is a mental hurdle some people have difficulty with, so they hold it so they can sell it for a push or a small gain to feel like they didn't make a bad investment. But if you can sell it for a loss and reinvest in something that outperforms what you're holding in that same time span, that's a smarter strategy - cutting your losses can lead to a gain.

You seem to agree that it's best from a team standpoint if they move on, but you're willing to take that on-court/locker room loss on the promise of recouping some of that investment.

Given the NTC, kicker and his $26m salary, I don't share your confidence he's ultimately going to acquiesce AND give a team incentive to offer something of quality, though I agree the Knicks should wait until the regular season before considering the nuclear option.

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Just don't Thu k it's smart to release/buy him out.

Let's forget about the issue of the perception of him for second. What's not tie this into the issue of people who exaggerate his shortcomings or exaggerate his worth.

You agree it's best the Knicks move on. Why does a return or lack thereof turn that completely 180 degrees?

He has an NTC and a trade kicker. That ship has sailed.

Why is this team better in 2019-20 for having kept him, independent of the reasons why?

Think your smart enough to answer that. But okay....Getting nothing in return for a player of Melo's caliber is a failure by that franchise/GM. Don't see how you can continue to argue that?

I'm not smart enough to answer that and I continue to argue if because you didn't answer my question. I asked how is the team better? That it's a failure of the front office doesn't that answer question.

The bulk of the failure has already occurred and can't be undone - giving him the NTC and the trade kicker. What limited options Perry has because of that isn't really on Perry. He is at the mercy of Melo.

That rationale strikes me as similar to holding on to a losing stock for too long. Selling a stock at a loss is a mental hurdle some people have difficulty with, so they hold it so they can sell it for a push or a small gain to feel like they didn't make a bad investment. But if you can sell it for a loss and reinvest in something that outperforms what you're holding in that same time span, that's a smarter strategy - cutting your losses can lead to a gain.

You seem to agree that it's best from a team standpoint if they move on, but you're willing to take that on-court/locker room loss on the promise of recouping some of that investment.

Given the NTC, kicker and his $26m salary, I don't share your confidence he's ultimately going to acquiesce AND give a team incentive to offer something of quality, though I agree the Knicks should wait until the regular season before considering the nuclear option.

Knickoftime wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Just don't Thu k it's smart to release/buy him out.

Let's forget about the issue of the perception of him for second. What's not tie this into the issue of people who exaggerate his shortcomings or exaggerate his worth.

You agree it's best the Knicks move on. Why does a return or lack thereof turn that completely 180 degrees?

He has an NTC and a trade kicker. That ship has sailed.

Why is this team better in 2019-20 for having kept him, independent of the reasons why?

Think your smart enough to answer that. But okay....Getting nothing in return for a player of Melo's caliber is a failure by that franchise/GM. Don't see how you can continue to argue that?

I'm not smart enough to answer that and I continue to argue if because you didn't answer my question. I asked how is the team better? That it's a failure of the front office doesn't that answer question.

The bulk of the failure has already occurred and can't be undone - giving him the NTC and the trade kicker. What limited options Perry has because of that isn't really on Perry. He is at the mercy of Melo.

That rationale strikes me as similar to holding on to a losing stock for too long. Selling a stock at a loss is a mental hurdle some people have difficulty with, so they hold it so they can sell it for a push or a small gain to feel like they didn't make a bad investment. But if you can sell it for a loss and reinvest in something that outperforms what you're holding in that same time span, that's a smarter strategy - cutting your losses can lead to a gain.

You seem to agree that it's best from a team standpoint if they move on, but you're willing to take that on-court/locker room loss on the promise of recouping some of that investment.

Given the NTC, kicker and his $26m salary, I don't share your confidence he's ultimately going to acquiesce AND give a team incentive to offer something of quality, though I agree the Knicks should wait until the regular season before considering the nuclear option.

I am not sure. If you waive him you owe him 53 mil fr 2 years. I don't think you can buy him out for much less. The guy was team captain lat year, held the off season workouts and was voted best teammate by his peers.

And won 31 games.

Not saying he's a cancer, it just isn't working. Kp, hernamgomez, hardaway, etc, hopefully have significant upside and in future years hopefully will be part of a competitive team.

There's just no long playoff run left in melo's time here and probably/maybe not even a postseason appearance.

Melo is s terrific NBA player, it's just time to move on.